Illogical events in both show and books.

[lancerman]

No it's not an attempt to flip the tables on book purists. It's just one of the most out there moments in the series and it only makes sense if you take in series logic out of it and realize how bad it would be for Arya to not have made the only smart move.

Imagine you are ten year old kid whose brother owns a company. You get lost in some weird creepy building for a few days. Then one day a guy that you know has worked for your brother's/father's company for years shows up and says the company just took over the building. Rather than tell him who you are and say you are lost like any sane person you sneak out and remain lost for a couple days because you thought the worker was weird.

That's basically what Arya did. It makes no sense in story. It only makes sense because the alternative would have a bad outcome with hindsight.

It's probably the most blatant example of plot superseding logic to get the desired outcome in the series, and nobody has ever provided a suitable explanation for it besides "well Arya did the dumbest thing possible because Roose doesn't come off as a nice happy person".

[protar]

No it's not an attempt to flip the tables on book purists. It's just one of the most out there moments in the series and it only makes sense if you take in series logic out of it and realize how bad it would be for Arya to not have made the only smart move.

Imagine you are ten year old kid whose brother owns a company. You get lost in some weird creepy building for a few days. Then one day a guy that you know has worked for your brother's/father's company for years shows up and says the company just took over the building. Rather than tell him who you are and say you are lost like any sane person you sneak out and remain lost for a couple days because you thought the worker was weird.

That's basically what Arya did. It makes no sense in story. It only makes sense because the alternative would have a bad outcome with hindsight.

It's probably the most blatant example of plot superseding logic to get the desired outcome in the series, and nobody has ever provided a suitable explanation for it besides "well Arya did the dumbest thing possible because Roose doesn't come off as a nice happy person".

 

And why is that not a good enough reason? Arya's a scared kid at this point. You're not seeing things from her point of view. She pulls off her Weasel Soup thing and Bolton takes Harrenhal. His first move is to hire the depraved Brave Companions who were just recently Lannister men and have his enemies tossed into a bear pit. Not something Arya would expect from Robb's troops and not something that makes Bolton seem trustworthy to her. And then he's a Bolton, her family's old nemeses rumoured to be flaying people alive to this day. With the knowledge Arya had it would have been stupid to reveal herself to him. So yeah...this is just some tortured logic in a failed attempt to excuse the show.

 

Arya made a not completely rational decision. News at eleven. 

[Khal Boner]

No it's not an attempt to flip the tables on book purists. It's just one of the most out there moments in the series and it only makes sense if you take in series logic out of it and realize how bad it would be for Arya to not have made the only smart move.

Imagine you are ten year old kid whose brother owns a company. You get lost in some weird creepy building for a few days. Then one day a guy that you know has worked for your brother's/father's company for years shows up and says the company just took over the building. Rather than tell him who you are and say you are lost like any sane person you sneak out and remain lost for a couple days because you thought the worker was weird.

That's basically what Arya did. It makes no sense in story. It only makes sense because the alternative would have a bad outcome with hindsight.

It's probably the most blatant example of plot superseding logic to get the desired outcome in the series, and nobody has ever provided a suitable explanation for it besides "well Arya did the dumbest thing possible because Roose doesn't come off as a nice happy person".

Yep. This and Dany getting the dragon eggs are genuine illogical events.

[Cas Stark]

 

And why is that not a good enough reason? Arya's a scared kid at this point. You're not seeing things from her point of view. She pulls off her Weasel Soup thing and Bolton takes Harrenhal. His first move is to hire the depraved Brave Companions who were just recently Lannister men and have his enemies tossed into a bear pit. Not something Arya would expect from Robb's troops and not something that makes Bolton seem trustworthy to her. And then he's a Bolton, her family's old nemeses rumoured to be flaying people alive to this day. With the knowledge Arya had it would have been stupid to reveal herself to him. So yeah...this is just some tortured logic in a failed attempt to excuse the show.

 

Arya made a not completely rational decision. News at eleven. 

 

I agree.  If anything would be a plot issue, it's that she didn't show herself to Glover, who she knows is loyal to her father, and there is no weirdness like there is w/Roose over the vargo hoat and co.  

[Bobby b's bobby]

I don't get the dany eggs as illogical

[marsyao]

Rodrick cassel acting as regent of the north wit the military skills of a banana and iq of 68

 

You forget the majority of Northern military force had marched south, among these left in the North Rodrick both the trust from the Starks and the senority

[imaGOTbluray]

The traveling.

 

How characters get from one place to another in warp speed at times.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
You forget the majority of Northern military force had marched south, among these left in the North Rodrick both the trust from the Starks and the senority

Yes but then he managed to lose winterfell bran rickon moat cailin and torrens square
The last 2 castles he originally had the ironborn outnumbered before emptying them to go fight small groups of ironborn first under dagmer then theon at wf. Is 1650 troops really much more than 1600 especially when the extra 50 where guarding the capital and heirs.

[lancerman]

No it's just weird and it's a horrible reason. It's something that most kids would be smart enough to do at the age 4 or 5 let alone 10. She basically said "this guy who works for my family and would most likely take me home under any normal circumstances doesn't look nice, so I'm going to kill a guy to escape and wander out into a warzone with a bunch of kids and hope I know my way to this place I've never been".

By that logic it's horrible. Arya is the daughter of the former Warden of the North. She knows the Bolton's are among her families most powerful allies. She knows they just defeated her brother's enemies. It's nothing short of stupid. And being 10 years old isn't an excuse because it's still stupid for a 10 year old, let alone one as savvy as Arya.

And lets be real, Bolton's and Starks have been allies for hundreds of years before Arya was born. Them having been enemies once in old stories is not a good reason either. It's twisting the narrative and making Arya dumber than she's been portrayed before or since that moment to get an outcome that allows her to stay on the same course plotwise.

Not a good reason. Borderline plothole. Only explanation is that she got really stupid from the time Roose took Harrenhall to the time she escaped in the most narratively convenient fashion ever.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

On Arya not trusting Roose?  Ehn.  Remember she had gone through some significant trauma in King's Landing with the death of her father, and while she is probably not privy to the exact details of his being betrayed, her House being slaughtered, Syrio being killed, etc would give her legitimate trust issues.  Take into account Cat's lack of trust of Bolton from her PoV and it isn't too unreasonable for her not to trust Bolton.

 

Glover on the other hand...

 

Even that being said, a child on the run from some horrific events acting irrationally does not measure up to 20 good men.

[lancerman]

No she knows exactly what happened with her father. And it involved the Lannister's. Her father was injured fighting a Lannister, Cersie had overseen the whole thing, and Joffrey was the one who actually ordered the death. She also heard all the details of the war. So Roose goes in and takes a castle from the Lannister's in the name of the Starks and Arya's response is to not tell him who she is.

No. Atleast with the 20 good men you can justify it with "it was the middle of the night (which is true), they were northerners who knew the area better (which is true), they only needed to light one or two torches a piece to burn the supply tents and cause a mess" or at worst "they were 20 REALLY good men" lol.

With Arya the only justification is that she acted incredibly stupid and out of character (though she wasn't directly before Roose took the castle and directly after she left) for the exact right amount of time to get her out of there to avoid a Red Wedding. That or Roose was so terrifying that despite EVERYTHING SHE KNEW she said fuck it I need to get away from this guy. This is like basic stuff a 4 year old could figure out. Being 10 isn't an excuse for how dumb that was.

[Richard Writhen]

They were 20 really awesome super ninja good men, who knew how to set horses on fire accurately...

[Cas Stark]

No she knows exactly what happened with her father. And it involved the Lannister's. Her father was injured fighting a Lannister, Cersie had overseen the whole thing, and Joffrey was the one who actually ordered the death. She also heard all the details of the war. So Roose goes in and takes a castle from the Lannister's in the name of the Starks and Arya's response is to not tell him who she is.

No. Atleast with the 20 good men you can justify it with "it was the middle of the night (which is true), they were northerners who knew the area better (which is true), they only needed to light one or two torches a piece to burn the supply tents and cause a mess" or at worst "they were 20 REALLY good men" lol.

With Arya the only justification is that she acted incredibly stupid and out of character (though she wasn't directly before Roose took the castle and directly after she left) for the exact right amount of time to get her out of there to avoid a Red Wedding. That or Roose was so terrifying that despite EVERYTHING SHE KNEW she said fuck it I need to get away from this guy. This is like basic stuff a 4 year old could figure out. Being 10 isn't an excuse for how dumb that was.

 

Well, except it turns out it wasn't dumb, since Roose was already in the process of betraying Robb at the time, sending the Northerners out to Duskendale....so if she had told him who she was she would probably be dead.  She has also throughout the series been a fairly good judge of character, better than her sister, certainly. 

[lancerman]

Here's the thing with that, if you watch the scene, about 12 tents were lit on fire, one horse who was burning around where his saddle would be (not hard to set that on fire), and a handful of other items. So at worst you assume they atleast all put one tent on fire, mostly focused on the supply tents, it spreads a bit, people die in the confusion, they escape before people can figure out what exactly was happening. And then just assume they are Roose's 20 best knights who are highly competent and they planned this out for a few weeks and had the logistics staked out.

No Arya becoming completely fucking stupid at the most convenient time is still worse. One is the crime of maybe having overly competent James Bond like characters accomplishing a difficult feat. The other is a smart character becoming stupid, ignoring what she just saw happen, ignoring everything she knew about her father's lords, ignoring how this guy just overthrew her enemies, because the plot required it.

Not nearly on the same level

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

No she knows exactly what happened with her father. And it involved the Lannister's. Her father was injured fighting a Lannister, Cersie had overseen the whole thing, and Joffrey was the one who actually ordered the death. She also heard all the details of the war. So Roose goes in and takes a castle from the Lannister's in the name of the Starks and Arya's response is to not tell him who she is.

No. Atleast with the 20 good men you can justify it with "it was the middle of the night (which is true), they were northerners who knew the area better (which is true), they only needed to light one or two torches a piece to burn the supply tents and cause a mess" or at worst "they were 20 REALLY good men" lol.

With Arya the only justification is that she acted incredibly stupid and out of character (though she wasn't directly before Roose took the castle and directly after she left) for the exact right amount of time to get her out of there to avoid a Red Wedding. That or Roose was so terrifying that despite EVERYTHING SHE KNEW she said fuck it I need to get away from this guy. This is like basic stuff a 4 year old could figure out. Being 10 isn't an excuse for how dumb that was.

 

There may be some reasonable room for disagreement on Arya, however your justifications for 20 good men do not hold water.

 

"It was the middle of the night" -- Any seasoned battle commander (which we are told Stannis is) will post competant guards during the night when in enemy territory.  A throw away line to justify it (the guards were asleep or in cahoots) does not change the fact that in order for the raid to be effective, 5-10 different sets of guards had to be circumvented.  Also, because it was night, it would be damn cold.  It is incredibly difficult to light a fire in sub-zero temperatures, when its snowing and nightime just makes it harder (its physics man, combustion happens by raising the temp of the material being lighted, this becomes much harder in the cold, wet, etc).  I'll find the link again if you want, but in modern times, with modern materials, experienced survivalists often take as long as an hour to get a fire started in that kind of weather.

 

"They were northerners who knew the area better"  -- Strictly untrue.  The terrain where Stannis was encamped was either Umber land, or Stark land, which can be determined by looking at a map.  There is no reason Ramsey or any of his twenty good men would have knowledge of that terrain.  When knowledge of terrain becomes an advantage, btw is most often in the choosing of the site of a conflict or the moving of forces undetected.  While such knowledge, if they had it -- which they didn't as they are not Stark or Umber men, might've gotten them through pickets but not into the camp itself.

 

"They only need to light one or two torches" -- Strictly untrue, as we are told supplies, horses and siege equipment were all destroyed.  Even if all these things were concentrated in one area (a seasoned commander would not for this reason) you'd still need multiple lightings, and near synchronous timing to pull it off and not get slaughtered by the 200 to 1 odds you'd be fighting on the way out.  And again, it requires the failure of multiple sets of guards.

 

Again, all of this stretches suspension of disbelief far more than a child who has be traumatized acting irrationally when it comes to trust.  You can say Arya 'should've trusted Roose' but there is reasons in her psychology not to.  Characters shouldn't always make the best, game theory decision in a situation (though if they are leaders and they don't, one has to question how they have remained so).  I'll respect you not liking Arya's decisions, and even considering it plot-hole, plot-armor-ish.  I'm not quite there myself.  But Ramsey's raid is strictly ridiculous when put against the measure of reason and logic.  As I've said before, if Game of Thrones wants to be an 80's action movie, that's fine, but last time I checked it aspired to more than that. 

[Bobby b's bobby]

Here's the thing with that, if you watch the scene, about 12 tents were lit on fire, one horse who was burning around where his saddle would be (not hard to set that on fire), and a handful of other items. So at worst you assume they atleast all put one tent on fire, mostly focused on the supply tents, it spreads a bit, people die in the confusion, they escape before people can figure out what exactly was happening. And then just assume they are Roose's 20 best knights who are highly competent and they planned this out for a few weeks and had the logistics staked out.

No Arya becoming completely fucking stupid at the most convenient time is still worse. One is the crime of maybe having overly competent James Bond like characters accomplishing a difficult feat. The other is a smart character becoming stupid, ignoring what she just saw happen, ignoring everything she knew about her father's lords, ignoring how this guy just overthrew her enemies, because the plot required it.

Not nearly on the same level

Knights aren't SAS commandos don't try to defend 20 good men its a dumb part of a rushed plot line. It deserves to be insulted.

[lancerman]

Then just assume Stannis was right when he hypothesized that some of the guards were in on it. We don't know how long this was planned out we don't know if they bought off anybody or snuck a few guys in there. Yeah I won't say it's not some cliché military commando bs. But it's also not on the same level of Arya not telling a guy who basically works for her brother and is killing his enemies who she is.

One is hyper competent miracle workers without context, another is a complete fuck it I'm going to ignore all logic and kill somebody and try to find my way home in a warzone when every bit of information should tell me to tell these people I am their bosses sister.

[Cas Stark]

 

There may be some reasonable room for disagreement on Arya, however your justifications for 20 good men do not hold water.

 

"It was the middle of the night" -- Any seasoned battle commander (which we are told Stannis is) will post competant guards during the night when in enemy territory.  A throw away line to justify it (the guards were asleep or in cahoots) does not change the fact that in order for the raid to be effective, 5-10 different sets of guards had to be circumvented.  Also, because it was night, it would be damn cold.  It is incredibly difficult to light a fire in sub-zero temperatures, when its snowing and nightime just makes it harder (its physics man, combustion happens by raising the temp of the material being lighted, this becomes much harder in the cold, wet, etc).  I'll find the link again if you want, but in modern times, with modern materials, experienced survivalists often take as long as an hour to get a fire started in that kind of weather.

 

"They were northerners who knew the area better"  -- Strictly untrue.  The terrain where Stannis was encamped was either Umber land, or Stark land, which can be determined by looking at a map.  There is no reason Ramsey or any of his twenty good men would have knowledge of that terrain.  When knowledge of terrain becomes an advantage, btw is most often in the choosing of the site of a conflict or the moving of forces undetected.  While such knowledge, if they had it -- which they didn't as they are not Stark or Umber men, might've gotten them through pickets but not into the camp itself.

 

"They only need to light one or two torches" -- Strictly untrue, as we are told supplies, horses and siege equipment were all destroyed.  Even if all these things were concentrated in one area (a seasoned commander would not for this reason) you'd still need multiple lightings, and near synchronous timing to pull it off and not get slaughtered by the 200 to 1 odds you'd be fighting on the way out.  And again, it requires the failure of multiple sets of guards.

 

Again, all of this stretches suspension of disbelief far more than a child who has be traumatized acting irrationally when it comes to trust.  You can say Arya 'should've trusted Roose' but there is reasons in her psychology not to.  Characters shouldn't always make the best, game theory decision in a situation (though if they are leaders and they don't, one has to question how they have remained so).  I'll respect you not liking Arya's decisions, and even considering it plot-hole, plot-armor-ish.  I'm not quite there myself.  But Ramsey's raid is strictly ridiculous when put against the measure of reason and logic.  As I've said before, if Game of Thrones wants to be an 80's action movie, that's fine, but last time I checked it aspired to more than that. 

 

Yep.

 

As far as plot holes in the books, there are many more serious ones than Arya not trusting Roose, who isn't trustworthy, LOL.  My  personal pet peeve is why nobody has hired the FM to kill Dany for fuck's sake.  Multiple entire city states dependent on slavery and slaves for cheap labor but nobody will go to the FM?  

[lancerman]

I'm willing to chalk up the FM thing as we don't entirely know how they work. Theoretically everyone should be hiring FM if they work as well as Jaqen. But we are told that the price is ridiculously steep and often dependent on the target.

I think Baelish said they could hire an army of sellswords for the same price it would take to kill a lesser target than Dany. And this was when she was just riding around the Khallasar. Now she's the leader of Mereen with 3 dragons, an army of devoted Unsullied, the Second Sons, etc.

[Cas Stark]

I'm willing to chalk up the FM thing as we don't entirely know how they work. Theoretically everyone should be hiring FM if they work as well as Jaqen. But we are told that the price is ridiculously steep and often dependent on the target.

I think Baelish said they could hire an army of sellswords for the same price it would take to kill a lesser target than Dany. And this was when she was just riding around the Khallasar. Now she's the leader of Mereen with 3 dragons, an army of devoted Unsullied, the Second Sons, etc.

 

Yeah, that's exactly why they need a FM to kill her, because she has an army and dragons.  If they want to retain slavery in Essos they need to kill her ASAP.  

 

So the only possible explanation that could pass muster is that the FM would refuse that job/have refused the job, otherwise, it's a massive, huge gaping plot hole because between Yunkai, Volantis and Qarth and what's left of Meereen surely they could come up with the $$ for a hit that would eliminate their problem and then they don't need to actually go to war against her.