Light a wight tonight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I rather respect the character, especially because he was able to see through Cersei's plot against Margaery, flogging the truth out of whichever Kettleblack that was. He's also a shrewd politician operating against the dimwits Cersei has surrounded herself with. I'll miss the little guy when Melisandre has Stannis burn him at the stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I rather respect the character, especially because he was able to see through Cersei's plot against Margaery, flogging the truth out of whichever Kettleblack that was. He's also a shrewd politician operating against the dimwits Cersei has surrounded herself with. I'll miss the little guy when Melisandre has Stannis burn him at the stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I rather respect the character, especially because he was able to see through Cersei's plot against Margaery, flogging the truth out of whichever Kettleblack that was. He's also a shrewd politician operating against the dimwits Cersei has surrounded herself with. I'll miss the little guy when Melisandre has Stannis burn him at the stake. That will be the day. I can't see Stannis getting to KL and being in charge for any long period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have to agree. The High Septon seems like a force of good, or at the very least like he has good intentions. From the dialogue, I got the impression that he means to use the Faith Millitant as a sort of Peacekeeper Force to curb the atrocities of the war. He piles up the bones of Septons and Septas who were murdered in the war, sending a potent message that the atrocities taking place SHOULD NOT be acceptable or even tolerable acts. Also, he is making efforts to decrease prostitution. In my opinion, that is a good thing (prostitution today is conjoined with a Human Trafficking and involves a lot of rape, so I have a hard time believing that it was less exploitive in the Middle Ages). I don't care if he Publicly Shamed Cersei. So far she has been a murderous, narcissistic, sociopathic megalomaniac who caused a brutal civil war for no other reason than her own selfishness. The High Septon is the only person in Kings Landing who actually had the guts to challange her. The High Sparrow is the most badass thing to come out of the Great Sept of Baelor since the building was built. Rock on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have to agree. The High Septon seems like a force of good, or at the very least like he has good intentions. From the dialogue, I got the impression that he means to use the Faith Millitant as a sort of Peacekeeper Force to curb the atrocities of the war. He piles up the bones of Septons and Septas who were murdered in the war, sending a potent message that the atrocities taking place SHOULD NOT be acceptable or even tolerable acts. Also, he is making efforts to decrease prostitution. In my opinion, that is a good thing (prostitution today is conjoined with a Human Trafficking and involves a lot of rape, so I have a hard time believing that it was less exploitive in the Middle Ages). I don't care if he Publicly Shamed Cersei. So far she has been a murderous, narcissistic, sociopathic megalomaniac who caused a brutal civil war for no other reason than her own selfishness. The High Septon is the only person in Kings Landing who actually had the guts to challange her. The High Sparrow is the most badass thing to come out of the Great Sept of Baelor since the building was built. Rock on! :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have to agree. The High Septon seems like a force of good, or at the very least like he has good intentions. From the dialogue, I got the impression that he means to use the Faith Millitant as a sort of Peacekeeper Force to curb the atrocities of the war. He piles up the bones of Septons and Septas who were murdered in the war, sending a potent message that the atrocities taking place SHOULD NOT be acceptable or even tolerable acts. Also, he is making efforts to decrease prostitution. In my opinion, that is a good thing (prostitution today is conjoined with a Human Trafficking and involves a lot of rape, so I have a hard time believing that it was less exploitive in the Middle Ages). I don't care if he Publicly Shamed Cersei. So far she has been a murderous, narcissistic, sociopathic megalomaniac who caused a brutal civil war for no other reason than her own selfishness. The High Septon is the only person in Kings Landing who actually had the guts to challange her. The High Sparrow is the most badass thing to come out of the Great Sept of Baelor since the building was built. Rock on! Was he a force for good when he imprisoned Margaery and her group of young girls with their private parts violated and forced to undergo sleep deprivation even thought the HS knows from Osney the charges are trumped up? He doesn't look like a peacekeeper by creating conflict. He also came into power by threat of mob violence. Is he offering prostitutes alternative ways to support themselves in other professions? Margaery challenged her after she learned of Cersei's intentions. Sexualized punishment is never okay, and that punishment was not for Cersei's murders but for premarital sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green King Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Let's say that he's indeed trying to do something for the smallfolk, although in return he does like to use his power and influence to excercise political pressure. He's not that innocent at all. Very cunning and potentially very dangerous. I love him being the opposition to Cersei and even the Tyrell's, however, my problem with him is that once he would actually create their downfall, you're likely to be stuck with him and his Faith of the Seven. And that is a bunch of trouble. I dislike all their ideas on sexuality, well most of them. But it's indeed hard to overlook that in the Westeros we see, the smallfolk often trampled, while he stands on their side. So yeah, it's yet another case of GRRM's tones of grey, very little black and white about it. It's like it's easy to despise Craster for the incest, until you realise he might have ulterior motives, like not just selfishly offer his babies to keep the Others away from himself, but maybe even to appease them to keep them away from all the rest of mankind. Once you get the faintest notion of him maybe fullfilling a pact with the Others as a punishment of sorts, then your whole idea about him kinda changes. Same with Jaime and so many other characters. Some seem selfess but aren't, others seem only concerned with themselves, until you discover their true motives... And yes the High Sparrow's intent to create conflict is very clear... for now that seems all kind of okay, but what if he succeeds in creating conflict and rebellion? He's a political power built on shabby morality, smart but quite harsh too, and... he also does have an army at his disposal as well. I wouldn't want to say he's worse than the other rulers we see. And that is also just it he's certainly not worse because for now, he's got some moral legitimacy, but he does seem to be quite radical. I don't see him as the worst of them yet, but he's certainly not better at all, his ways are just different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Was he a force for good when he imprisoned Margaery and her group of young girls with their private parts violated and forced to undergo sleep deprivation even thought the HS knows from Osney the charges are trumped up? He doesn't look like a peacekeeper by creating conflict. He also came into power by threat of mob violence. Is he offering prostitutes alternative ways to support themselves in other professions? Margaery challenged her after she learned of Cersei's intentions. Sexualized punishment is never okay, and that punishment was not for Cersei's murders but for premarital sex. Margaery is not just some women: she is the Queen. If the Queen gives birth to a child, then there has to be 100% certainty that the King is the father or else there WILL be war. Given the rumors about Cersei's incest, I can see why the High Septon would want to preemptily prevent another succession crisis. However his interactions with Maegaery Tyrell prove that he is a reasonable authority figure. Because once it becomes clear how full of dysentery the accusations against her are, he begins to consider that she might be innocent (she is even released from custody and allowed to stay in Randyll Tarley's Care). Now Margaery and her cousins are on the fast track to exoneration. As for making Cersei go on a Walk of Shame, it wasn't just for having sex with Kettleblacks. She is being tried on charges of incest, putting an incest bastard on the throne, and murdering an innocent High Septon. And I get the feeling that the High Sparrow knows Cersei did it (or at least he has a strong suspicion). Publicly shaming Cersei effectively shows the world what she really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Margaery is not just some women: she is the Queen. If the Queen gives birth to a child, then there has to be 100% certainty that the King is the father or else there WILL be war. Given the rumors about Cersei's incest, I can see why the High Septon would want to preemptily prevent another succession crisis. However his interactions with Maegaery Tyrell prove that he is a reasonable authority figure. Because once it becomes clear how full of dysentery the accusations against her are, he begins to consider that she might be innocent (she is even released from custody and allowed to stay in Randyll Tarley's Care). Now Margaery and her cousins are on the fast track to exoneration. As for making Cersei go on a Walk of Shame, it wasn't just for having sex with Kettleblacks. She is being tried on charges of incest, putting an incest bastard on the throne, and murdering an innocent High Septon. And I get the feeling that the High Sparrow knows Cersei did it (or at least he has a strong suspicion). Publicly shaming Cersei effectively shows the world what she really is. Except Margaery had no children, and was not pregnant at the time, so that argument flies out the window. The HS admits the case against her is weak. He doesn't let her go in those considerations, but continues the sleep deprivations. Except the walk of shame wasn't for the charges of murder, but fornication to which she confessed. The charges of murder and treason are punishable by death, and I doubt the walk of shame is for that. Except what did the walk of shame show to the world except her nude body? You're he has right in sexually humiliating her? That was plain misogynistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Except Margaery had no children, and was not pregnant at the time, so that argument flies out the window. The HS admits the case against her is weak. He doesn't let her go in those considerations, but continues the sleep deprivations. Except the walk of shame wasn't for the charges of murder, but fornication to which she confessed. The charges of murder and treason are punishable by death, and I doubt the walk of shame is for that. Except what did the walk of shame show to the world except her nude body? You're he has right in sexually humiliating her? That was plain misogynistic. Yep. Even if you willfully ignore his blatant misogyny and torture fetish, to think his 'populism' is reflective of genuine concern for the smallfolk is misguided - as can be seen with his repeated negotiations with Cersei that reveal him as a 'player' rather than another Baelor zealous nutbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Except Margaery had no children, and was not pregnant at the time, so that argument flies out the window. The HS admits the case against her is weak. He doesn't let her go in those considerations, but continues the sleep deprivations. Except the walk of shame wasn't for the charges of murder, but fornication to which she confessed. The charges of murder and treason are punishable by death, and I doubt the walk of shame is for that. Except what did the walk of shame show to the world except her nude body? You're he has right in sexually humiliating her? That was plain misogynistic. I've heard that Kevan wanted the walk of shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I've heard that Kevan wanted the walk of shame. I've heard that too. From other posters, with no basis in the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimJames Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Except Margaery had no children, and was not pregnant at the time, so that argument flies out the window. The HS admits the case against her is weak. He doesn't let her go in those considerations, but continues the sleep deprivations. Except the walk of shame wasn't for the charges of murder, but fornication to which she confessed. The charges of murder and treason are punishable by death, and I doubt the walk of shame is for that. Except what did the walk of shame show to the world except her nude body? You're he has right in sexually humiliating her? That was plain misogynistic. For a Queen to commit adultery is treason under any circumstances. If Margaery (hypothetically) had a long standing affair with one of her household guards, then she could decide at a future point to pass off his baby as Tommem's. That's the "preemptive" part: preventing a succession crisis before Margaery could get pregnant with a bastard. And as I said, he actually DOES let her go: she is released from the duengon and allowed to stay with Randyll Tarley until the trial can commence. While he didn't declare her innocent out of hand, it makes sense for him to want to go through formalities first. On the topic of interrogations, you seem to mention sleep deprivation a lot. While it is not a humane treatment by modern standards, by the standards of his time it is actually quite progressive. By comparison, Cersei got the Blue Bard to confess to false accusations by having Qyburn mutilate him. Casterly Rock has cells that today would qualify as Box Torture. The Eeryie has cells that actively encourage inmates to commit suicide. By those marks, sleep deprivation is looking like a form of restraint on the High Septon's part. As for Cersei's walk of shame, it is only nominally about the unmarried sex. The High Septon knows that Cersei murdered the previous High Septon, and suspects she murdered others as well. That is probably the real reason for the punishment, a punishment that (I might add) is meant to have the duel effect of humbling Cersei and showing the public that her high birth does not make her anything special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 For a Queen to commit adultery is treason under any circumstances. If Margaery (hypothetically) had a long standing affair with one of her household guards, then she could decide at a future point to pass off his baby as Tommem's. That's the "preemptive" part: preventing a succession crisis before Margaery could get pregnant with a bastard. And as I said, he actually DOES let her go: she is released from the duengon and allowed to stay with Randyll Tarley until the trial can commence. While he didn't declare her innocent out of hand, it makes sense for him to want to go through formalities first. On the topic of interrogations, you seem to mention sleep deprivation a lot. While it is not a humane treatment by modern standards, by the standards of his time it is actually quite progressive. By comparison, Cersei got the Blue Bard to confess to false accusations by having Qyburn mutilate him. Casterly Rock has cells that today would qualify as Box Torture. The Eeryie has cells that actively encourage inmates to commit suicide. By those marks, sleep deprivation is looking like a form of restraint on the High Septon's part. As for Cersei's walk of shame, it is only nominally about the unmarried sex. The High Septon knows that Cersei murdered the previous High Septon, and suspects she murdered others as well. That is probably the real reason for the punishment, a punishment that (I might add) is meant to have the duel effect of humbling Cersei and showing the public that her high birth does not make her anything special. If the HS was only about preventing a succession crisis, why violate Megga and Elinor as well? Comparing his torture techniques to Qyburn's is hardly an argument for his 'progressiveness.' Especially considering he likely knew Marge and the girls were innocent. While the WoS is certainly in part a way to 'humble' Cersei, ask yourself if he would have required the same punishment if Cersei was male? Somehow I doubt it. Moreover, the intended affect of 'humbling' Cersei is a nice way of saying putting her in her place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green King Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 OKay... what i don't get is why you're trying to defend a guy who obviously uses quite despicable methods? I know it's still pretty soft for the middle ages, but that would be the same reason why any sexuality issues (except incest) are quite logical in that time frame. He's vicious and dangerous in his own way. And he's quite the political power to reckon with too, epecially because he has the power to judge kings and queens. I'm not defnding Cersei or anyone else, but i just don't see him as all that innocent and good either. But given the situations and the other choices, he's indeed far from the worst of them. Although i do question his final agenda as well. Right now he and the Faith are a good opposition for Cersei. In the long run i'm wondering if he's not just as bad or sometimes even worse than some of the other characters. I mean, they enforce some moral code, but it's often not that defndable either. It has also a lot of dark sides and cruelties in it. And the worst of it, the Faith in general does create a huge ignorance. When they don't, the motivation is often political... but that political game is never only for the benefit of the smallfok or so. That political game often is only to gain more power, and if it isn't power for him as a person, than defenitely for the Faith as a controlling order, again, including all of it's very dark and cruel sides. I certainly don't see him as a force of good. I really question his motives on the long run, as the motives of the faith. The more influence they get , the worse they will become. Really nothing good about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Poor nobles. :( LoL JK! The High Sparrow is a duly elected representative. If the nobles wished for the peasants to make a more enlightened choice, maybe they should've done something to educate the small folk during their 12000 years in power. Let's also ignore the fact that meek high septons prior to the glorious High Sparrow were all intimidated or bribed into being puppets of the aristocracy. If High Sparrow didn't use his teeth, he would simply be the latest in a long line of fail boat high septons. Let us ignore also that so called heroic, progressive figures like Daenerys never had the sort of religious zeal which would be required to delude yourself into thinking you're the mother of the Dothraki's rape, pillage and slaver God. Cersei had it coming. All of the highborn of note except maybe Edmure, whoever is left in the brotherhood and Jon have it coming. Not because they are gay or because they fuck their brother, although that may be the justification the faith uses; but because they are horrible, horrible people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I've heard that too. From other posters, with no basis in the text. There are plenty of things we don't know text. BrydenBFish makes a very compelling case here. At the very least it benefits him and is strangely reminsence of Tytos's mistress walk of shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 The High Sparrow is a duly elected representative. He used force to rig the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrunesThatWasPromised Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Welcome to democracy, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 He used force to rig the election. To be fair the leading contender was a Frey. He did everyone a favor keeping him out of office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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