Did the Others build the walls?

[LmL]

Butterbumps you're talking sense here, both on the matter of the general fuzziness and the need to decide which things are more likely to be true as well as the notion of ice and fire and Jon's heritage. Starks are blood of the Other, just as Targs are blood of the dragon - that's been my gut instinct for a long time, and there are really just way too many references to Ned's frozen face, frozen laughter, etc etc. Right in the first chapter where Ned welcomes Robert to Winterfell, it's laid on thick. The Starks are icy people (hypothesis)

Now what does that mean? It could mean a lot things. Maybe the Starks MADE the Others, or maybe the Starks descend from one of the Nights King's sons who got away, much like one of Craster's sons got away with Gilly and Sam. Perhaps the Starks were transformed by ice in the way the Mel is transformed by fire. There are a few possibilities.

As for the Brandon of the Bloody Blade, I definitely agree with Mithras that there is a sexual connotation here, but I suspect it is in addition to the obvious connotation of warring against cotf.

If I could just insert my own hypothetical timeline based on my own research: The Hammer of the Waters and the breaking of the Arm of Dorne happened at the beginning of the Long Night. The Hammer was a meteorite, and so its all wrapped up in that LN event - this I feel fairly certain about. The Pact between cotf and First Men took place immediately AFTER the Long Night. The reason the FM made a pact when they clearly had the upper hand is because the cotf helped them survive through the LN (check out Bran's greenseer training montage chapter for clues about underground ecosystems of the cotf). I tend to think the warring against the cotf happened before the LN and ceased afterwards, for the most part, until the Andals came.

One other thing - I've picked up some good evidence that human greenseers, which existed before the LN, may be the ones who had something to do with magically instigating the Hammer / moon - comet collision, as opposed to the cotf. I think those green skinned, antler headed Sacred Order of Green Men must be a remnant of this time. Those are not cotf. They are green MEN.

The Marsh Kings of the crannogmen were specifically chosen for their greensight abilities, which suggests the idea of greenseer kings - human greenseers who didn't just sit under a tree and die slowly. And recall Bran's greenseer training chapter - he has a second set of greenseer visions, seen through the heart tree, WHILE HE IS NO LONGER SITTING IN THE WEIRWOOD THRONE. He has that second set of visions laying in his bed, staring into the fire. Not sitting on the seat. Yet, he could still access the weirnet.

Think about the ramifications of that. If Bran had legs and that tree wasn't so far north... just think about that. ;)

[LmL]

I posted the quotes about Storms End and the Wall both having old spells set into it last page - this is something which must be addressed. Bran the Builder is associated with both locations, and both have warding spells - SE wards against shadows, specifically, and the Wall against Coldhands (and therefore, probably all wights and possibly the Others, who are white shadows).

The question is, if the Others built the Wall, who set those spells in? I really tend to suspect the same spellcraft was used in both spots, and I don't think anyone is claiming the Others built Storm's End. I think, at the very least, the foundations of the Wall (which may well be stone) were laid by humans, perhaps Other hybrids humans or perhaps not. The spells were laid at this time. Perhaps the Ice was the work of the Others.

Perhaps the Wall wards against the Heart of Winter, and not just the Others. Perhaps if the Wall didn't exist, the ice magic of the heart of winter would expand and cover all of Westeros, killing everything. The far northern lands are called the frozen dead lands - past the curtain of light that Bran sees, I am thinking. Very hypothetical here, I just thought of that.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

IMO, the war between the STarks and the Warg king is not enough to claim some kind of historical hostilities between the Kings of Winter and CotF in general.

 

the Starks just killed everyone that didn´t bend the knee.. they were conquerors and subyugated all other kingdoms human or non-human alike.

 

 

Giants, CotF, cronnogmen, mountain clans, Ironborn, Andals, Skagosi, and other First men kingdoms ... all were defeated in turn..

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I agree with Lord Too Fat here that just beacuse there is evidence of a Stark-Warg King war doesn't mean they constantly hated or picked on the CotF. I always assumed the Warg King must have violated the 'rules o warging' we get in ADwD. Also, just want to point out that the wall seems to stop warging but doesn't stop BR/Bran from seeing south of the wall (maybe cause the black gate connects the 'weirnet'). So the wall doesn't seem to really stop all CotF Magic.

I also like the idea of factions amongst the supernatural races as well as among man. Could explain warring on Warg King/CotF after the pact. But could also explain Others helping to build the wall to keep out others of their own kind. Think the Night's King's bride. And if my pet tinfoil theory is true then the pact was between the brother Stark, who brought down the Nights King, and Joramun, seemingly the original king beyond the wall and I believe an Other. Also, why his horn would bring down the wall, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

[Mithras]

Sorry-- when did Leaf go through the Wall with ease?  Are you talking about bypassing the Wall via underground tunnels?   If so, then we're talking about bypassing (meaning, not actually going through the Wall), so it doesn't confirm its penetrability to CotF.      

 
I'm also a little confused by these standards you have regarding wall permeability.   One's absolute ability to get through a wall doesn't necessarily tell us whether that wall was meant to contain or repel that person or thing.   
 
Look, I don't happen to suspect that any person or thing cannot go through or over the Wall itself in some literal physical sense.   I think it's definitely a physical barrier that makes passage difficult simply due to size, lack of portals, and surface material (it's hard to climb on ice), but I suspect the main magical virtue is in blocking the wireless connection.   
 
We know that the Wall does not prevent reanimation of wights to the south side.  I don't claim to know what animates the wights exactly, but it does seem rather peculiar that they were able to animate like that on the south side if this Wall is supposed to be preventing that kind of sorcery, right?

 

Leaf was born in the time of the dragon and walked the world of men for 200 years to watch, listen and learn. She also said she learned the Common Tongue for the Bran boy.

 

I think it is quite reasonable that she did not roam among the wildlings to learn the Common Tongue and the ways of men. Instead, she passed south of the Wall roamed the Seven Kingdoms.

 

There is a theory of Ran that the Ghost of High Heart is a hybrid born from CotF mother and Bloodraven. That is a very good theory. My addition is that Leaf was the mother and moreover, Leaf glamoured as Nettles during the Dance of Dragons.

 

Regardless of these theories, the CotF do not seem to have a problem in skinchanging creatures at the other side of the Wall. They can pass south of the Wall by climbing or on a boat like countless wildings raiders have done since the Dawn of Days. Or they might have the knowledge of Gorne’s Way or other cave systems to directly pass beneath the Wall.

 

Thus, if the Wall was built to stop the CotF, it is a complete waste of time and resources.

 

Qyburn can apparently practice necromancy south of the Wall without any problem. So, the Others might not have any problem to control the wights south of the Wall. But if the Wall blocks them and their magic, as long as the ward of the Wall remains intact, they should not be able to raise the dead south of the Wall. Othor and Jafers were carried by the NW.

 

Adjacently, we have some pretty compelling suggestion that the Wall blocks warging.  Jon loses touch with Ghost completely from the time they're on separate sides.  But that ability returns whenever they're on the same side.

 

No we don’t :)

 

Ghost is a unique creature. I daresay that its biological father might be Bloodraven (remember the weirwood root going into his thigh?). Even if that is not the case, Jon has been fighting his gift instead of embracing it. 

 

I don't think any of the dates are well established at all.   Nor the sequence of events surrounding any of that ancient history.   Putting it all together as we've gotten it at face value, it's fairly inconsistent. 

 

Numbers and tales might lie but symbolism always tells the truth.

 

Evening took her almost unawares. As the sun was gilding the distant spires of Dragonstone, Dany stumbled onto a low stone wall, overgrown and broken. Perhaps it had been part of a temple, or the hall of the village lord. More ruins lay beyond it—an old well, and some circles in the grass that marked the sites where hovels had once stood. They had been built of mud and straw, she judged, but long years of wind and rain had worn them away to nothing. Dany found eight before the sun went down, but there might have been more farther out, hidden in the grass.

 

This is the wall George likened to the Wall and Dany found eight circles which clearly symbolize the eight millennia since the construction of the Wall.

 

I'm not sure if I understand--- the Kings of Winter/ Others/ Ice wielders couldn't possibly have built a Wall to contain the CotF and their allies to the North because they didn't also build a similar to the South (where an ice Wall would be a little weird in light of the weather difference, but I'll roll with it I guess)?  

 

Well, isn't Moat Cailin basically operating the way that Wall does to Southron enemies?   I guess I'm not sure I follow this.  The North is actually very geographically well contained from the rest of the continent.  

 

I guess, how does your line of inquiry support your point and not mine?   As it stands, there's no CotF in the North at all between the Wall and the Neck (at least, none that anyone has any clue about, which would be weird in light of how the wildlings living amongst them further North know they're still around).   So we know there wasn't a constant supply of CotF coming from the South for whatever reason anyway.  

 

And I think the total absence of all CotF from the North is really weird in light of how long this peace was allegedly made and in light of how in the North, unlike with the Southron Andals, the FM took the CotF's religion.

 

The Neck is the place where the CotF have perhaps the strongest hold in Westeros.  I am pretty sure that there are still many CotF living there along with the crannogmen.

 

The North is the largest and most thinly populated kingdom. This is a place where a direwolf might be sighted by the humans after two centuries. The fact that no humans saw the direwolves or the CotF for a long time does not mean that they are not out there somewhere. They can hide themselves from humans quite well and the vastness of the North helps them in that regard. Who can say that the wolfswood can be completely monitored by the men?  What about other caves in the North?

 

So, we cannot say that the no CotF lives in the North.

 

This line of reasoning again proves why it makes no sense to build to Wall against the CotF because the South is completely open to the CotF at the Neck and beyond.

 

The FM in the south took the religion of the CotF too. After the arrival of the Andals, most of them converted to the Faith of the Seven.

 

Winterfell, which was built by Brandon the Builder, has a weirwood at its heart. It was built around that heart tree. That means at least since Brandon the Builder, the Starks have been worshipping the Old Gods.

[butterbumps!]

I want to return to your posts later when I get a little more time, LmL, but just to address this really quick:

 

IMO, the war between the STarks and the Warg king is not enough to claim some kind of historical hostilities between the Kings of Winter and CotF in general.

 

I agree with Lord Too Fat here that just beacuse there is evidence of a Stark-Warg King war doesn't mean they constantly hated or picked on the CotF.

 

 

Where are you getting the idea that the conflict between the Warg king and the Stark is the only case of hostility between the Kings of Winter and CotF and CotF allies?   Mithras said the same thing, but it's not the only case.   In fact, the Brandon of the Bloody Blade legend is a very explicit example of an outright CotF persecution/ massacre by people directly related to the Kings of Winter.  Whether you choose to interpret it metaphorically as "intermarrying" or not, fact is, it's in the text explicitly pointing to a very dedicated CotF massacre.

 

But to add to those two examples, we also have:

• Ancient ballads telling of the KoW driving the giants from the North
• a KoW defeating Gaven Greywolf (a skinchanger)

Lord Too Fat, yea, I agree that the Starks are generally conquerors, but it's kind of set up from the Brandon of the BB legend forward that the Starks seem to be in opposition to the CotF and their allies.   

 

 

 

Mithras:

You keep posting these theories of your own, presented as some kind of gospel despite being based on speculations upon speculations, in an attempt to tell me I'm wrong.   Do you honestly not see the problem here?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I guess my point was that one, or a few, examples of conflict between the Starks and Wargs/Children/Giants, over thousands of years, isn't necessarily meanin a policy of persecution. My favorite thing about GRRM is that the "sides" are not that clear cut. Their can be factions among all these races. Children warred with giants and men. But at times water on me with the help of giants. Men could ally with some children and not all. And the same could be true oth the 'Others'.

So while some men and/or Starks may have had crusades against Children, Wargs, and giants, I don't think this means there was for sure an extended policy of persecution beyond the standard conquest and dislike of those that are different. The Starks fought many wars against men but, I don't think, persecuted/hated all men.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I want to return to your posts later when I get a little more time, LmL, but just to address this really quick:

 

 

 

Where are you getting the idea that the conflict between the Warg king and the Stark is the only case of hostility between the Kings of Winter and CotF and CotF allies?   Mithras said the same thing, but it's not the only case.   In fact, the Brandon of the Bloody Blade legend is a very explicit example of an outright CotF persecution/ massacre by people directly related to the Kings of Winter.  Whether you choose to interpret it metaphorically as "intermarrying" or not, fact is, it's in the text explicitly pointing to a very dedicated CotF massacre.

 

But to add to those two examples, we also have:

• Ancient ballads telling of the KoW driving the giants from the North
• a KoW defeating Gaven Greywolf (a skinchanger)

Lord Too Fat, yea, I agree that the Starks are generally conquerors, but it's kind of set up from the Brandon of the BB legend forward that the Starks seem to be in opposition to the CotF and their allies.  

 

 

 

Sure, Brandon bloody blade could very well be another case... yet if you take all Mithras pointed out, plus all the evidence of Brandon the Builder (descendent of the Bloody Blade) himself being a Cotf (or hybrid), then one must admit its a very compeling case than perphaps the Bloody Blade just liked to bang CotF...

 

The giants were enemies of the CotF as well.. i don´t see how that helps your theory

Gaven was a skinchanger, not a CotF.. Bran is human and a Greenseer,.. in fact,. many believe the ancient starks were wargs as well.

[butterbumps!]

I guess my point was that one, or a few, examples of conflict between the Starks and Wargs/Children/Giants, over thousands of years, isn't necessarily meanin a policy of persecution. My favorite thing about GRRM is that the "sides" are not that clear cut. Their can be factions among all these races. Children warred with giants and men. But at times water on me with the help of giants. Men could ally with some children and not all. And the same could be true oth the 'Others'.

So while some men and/or Starks may have had crusades against Children, Wargs, and giants, I don't think this means there was for sure an extended policy of persecution beyond the standard conquest and dislike of those that are different. The Starks fought many wars against men but, I don't think, persecuted/hated all men.

 

Of course it doesn't.   Nothing about this ancient history is really certain or for sure.   But there's little enough info we have for these however many hundreds or thousands of years, so I think representing what we're told accurately is really important just so we can be on the same page.   There's at least 4 instances of KoW-CotF/ allies persecution, not "only one," which seems a bit significant or perhaps purposeful when so few words are given on the subject at all.

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you or anything.  But, I mean, this topic is always a mess and seems to devolve rapidly because the knowns always get conflated with assumptions and speculations.   I was only trying to get on the same page with what we're told.

 

For clarity, there's a number of reasons why the Others and/ or Others' allies may have built the Wall (to keep any enemy out or to contain and corral).  I suggested building it as a means of defusing the CotF's power because it's not inconsistent with a lot of the history, there's reason to believe it might block the wireless connections, and I think would kind of explain why so many wargs and skinchangers exist amongst the wildlings and other sorts of mild curiosities.   To add, there's also Ygritte's assertion that the Wall is evil, and the wildlings telling Jon that Craster is more "his kind" than theirs.  Both could be answered easily enough I suppose, but in this context, it becomes really provocative.

 

 

Sure, Brandon bloody blade could very well be another case... yet if you take all Mithras pointed out, plus all the evidence of Brandon the Builder (descendent of the Bloody Blade) himself being a Cotf (or hybrid), then one must admit its a very compeling case than perphaps the Bloody Blade just liked to bang CotF...

 

The giants were enemies of the CotF as well.. i don´t see how that helps your theory

Gaven was a skinchanger, not a CotF.. Bran is human and a Greenseer,.. in fact,. many believe the ancient starks were wargs as well.

 

Even if Brandon of the BB is literal and even if he was going around "banging CotF" as you say, don't you think the root of that issue is conquest and domination over them?

 

And no, the giants were variously their "brothers and bane."   But the point is, the KoW drove another ancient race from the North with dedication.  And I haven't been merely talking about the CotF.   We've been talking about the Kings of Winters' violent relations with the CotF and those related to the CotF, such as skinchangers and wargs.   I'm not fully sure what point you're making by pointing out that Gaven is a skinchanger and not a CotF.   

 

To explain this another way:

If I were a King of Winter, trying to gain total domination of the North, but there were these CotF with magical powers, and these allies of the CotF who shared some of those powers like skinchanging, well, I'd make a point of trying to gain an advantage magically too.  In addition to strengthening my own magical powers I'd try to find a way to reduce theirs.   Hence, where something like the Wall would come in.   If the type of magic the CotF used was interfering too much with the Stark aims, then they'd need to take drastic measures.   

 

Sure, we have reason to believe that some of the old Starks were wargs because they have direwolf statues carved in the Winterfell crypts.   But now here's one of the places where the history we're given falls apart.   We have all these KoWs conquering the North for a while, but then the LN comes, and it's during this time that Brandon the Builder apparently founds House Stark and builds the Wall and Winterfell?  So, something is certainly wrong with this picture.   One reasonable explanation could be that the LN was a turning point for the Starks, when they adopted the old gods and allied with the CotF against ice/ night, and that's when the Starks as we understand them came into being (with their warging and whatnot).   Just for example.   

[Mithras]

Sure, we have reason to believe that some of the old Starks were wargs because they have direwolf statues carved in the Winterfell crypts.   But now here's one of the places where the history we're given falls apart.   We have all these KoWs conquering the North for a while, but then the LN comes, and it's during this time that Brandon the Builder apparently founds House Stark and builds the Wall and Winterfell?  So, something is certainly wrong with this picture.   One reasonable explanation could be that the LN was a turning point for the Starks, when they adopted the old gods and allied with the CotF against ice/ night, and that's when the Starks as we understand them came into being (with their warging and whatnot).   Just for example.   

 

Quick response.

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade lived in the Reach. He was supposedly a son of Garth Greenhand. Whatever the case, Red Lake is in the Reach close to Westerlands border. So, it is clear that there was probably a large gap of time between BotBB and the building of Winterfell. And the conquests of KoWs all happened after Winterfell was built in the North.

[LmL]

 

Quick response.

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade lived in the Reach. He was supposedly a son of Garth Greenhand. Whatever the case, Red Lake is in the Reach close to Westerlands border. So, it is clear that there was probably a large gap of time between BotBB and the building of Winterfell. And the conquests of KoWs all happened after Winterfell was built in the North.

 

Slightly less short response: have you considered the idea that Bran the Builder was someone who lead reconstruction effects immediately after the Long Night?  That would be the only logical way for him to be involved in the founding on Winterfell and Storm's End and the Wall. The Story of Storm's End involves a castle being knocked down by a storm, and THEN Storm's End as we know if being built. That's after the Long Night, if I am right that Durran's tsunami was part of the LN disaster. Winterfell, we think, was built right after the LN, and that's potentially when the Wall was built. I for one think the Nightfort might predate the Wall - wouldn't you need at least one castle to work out of while you built it? 

Just my thoughts. Bran the re-builder. ;)

 

ETA: I do think we have to keep in mind the possibility of longer life spans fro Garth and his children, who may well have been greenseers or skinchangers. There are just too many accounts of extra long lives through magic, both in history and the main story, to discount that possibility. 

To me, the main thing we can decide about any event in the past is whether it happened before or after the LN. The idea of sorting out the age of heroes and Dawn Age seems a bit far-fetched, to me. I think the maesters created the term "Dawn Age" for events which basically seem like myth to them,and the term "Age of Heroes" for things which seem to have some vague toehold in history. But what it really comes down to is before or after the LN, which is when everything changed. 

[Mithras]

 

Slightly less short response: have you considered the idea that Bran the Builder was someone who lead reconstruction effects immediately after the Long Night?  That would be the only logical way for him to be involved in the founding on Winterfell and Storm's End and the Wall. The Story of Storm's End involves a castle being knocked down by a storm, and THEN Storm's End as we know if being built. That's after the Long Night, if I am right that Durran's tsunami was part of the LN disaster. Winterfell, we think, was built right after the LN, and that's potentially when the Wall was built. I for one think the Nightfort might predate the Wall - wouldn't you need at least one castle to work out of while you built it? 

Just my thoughts. Bran the re-builder. ;)

 

ETA: I do think we have to keep in mind the possibility of longer life spans fro Garth and his children, who may well have been greenseers or skinchangers. There are just too many accounts of extra long lives through magic, both in history and the main story, to discount that possibility. 

To me, the main thing we can decide about any event in the past is whether it happened before or after the LN. The idea of sorting out the age of heroes and Dawn Age seems a bit far-fetched, to me. I think the maesters created the term "Dawn Age" for events which basically seem like myth to them,and the term "Age of Heroes" for things which seem to have some vague toehold in history. But what it really comes down to is before or after the LN, which is when everything changed. 

 

I think Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder for the first time. Before that, there should not be a Winterfell. It is highly possible that there was a CotF cave system under Winterfell and the ones Brandon the Builder visited were them. Some people speculated that the name of the castle commemorates the victory at the Battle for Dawn. I think that is a good explanation. This might be the place where Winter fell.

 

Before Winterfell was built, I don't think there were much human settlements in the North. Perhaps the Blackwoods ruled the wolfswood during this era. 

 

I also agree that Nightfort predates the Wall (but not too much). My speculation is that after the LN, the construction of Winterfell and Nightfort began. There was no Wall yet and the Others were coming in winters until the spring came. Winterfell was meant to be the main settlement and Nightfort was built as an outpost to guard the realm to the south. After all, if there were lots of skinchangers at Nightfort and greenseers at Winterfell, they could easily monitor every movement of the Others and no need for a giant Wall. After these two castles were completed, the construction of the Wall must have begun for they must have known that a new Long Night or a long winter would eventually come. After the Battle for Dawn, it should have taken a century or so to complete Winterfell, Nightfort and the Wall. Such a time gap can bring us to the Night’s King.

 

I reread the Stormlands section. A maester sees Andal influence in Storm’s End but we do know that the magic ward at the stones is much older than that. I think Brandon the Builder should be skilled enough to design that ingenious  curtain wall. We cannot compare it to the First Keep of Winterfell because it was destroyed and rebuilt so many times that it is impossible to date it as one maester argued.

 

I agree that past events can be assessed to be pre-LN or post-LN. What is clear is that the First Men in Stormlands had dealings with giants and the CotF there. It was friendly at first and it came to wars later. Elenei might be a female CotF which implies the greenseers of the CotF destroyed the previous Storm’s End with storms. Only after the intervention of a hybrid like Brandon the Builder, Durran and the bride’s side must have made peace. This must be the time the current Storm’s End was built, the heart tree was planted and Durran converted to the Faith of the Old Gods.

 

Just like the Starks in the North after the LN, Storm Kings started annexing neighboring kingdoms by treaties, marriages and often by conquests. They made wars with CotF and giants alike. But they made peace with them too. It is mentioned that by the time the Pact was signed, no giants were left in Stormlands and the number of CotF declined. So, the Pact being post-LN sounds like a good explanation for that.

 

I think the First Men had regular lifetimes but Garth Greenhand and his descendants were made from a much different stock. They could have lived a thousand years. Brandon of the Bloody Blade might have lived for several lifetimes of the CotF.

[butterbumps!]

So maybe the Others built the Wall and maybe they didn't, but it seems like they may originate with the same kind of magic.

Now what does that mean? It could mean a lot things. Maybe the Starks MADE the Others, or maybe the Starks descend from one of the Nights King's sons who got away, much like one of Craster's sons got away with Gilly and Sam. Perhaps the Starks were transformed by ice in the way the Mel is transformed by fire. There are a few possibilities.

 

I wanted to return to this and say that I tend to agree with both.   I'm pretty flexible about the exact nature of the Others except the broad speculation that they have a human origin in some capacity, and I suspect the Starks specifically.   And I'm also not certain about whether it was specifically Others who built the Wall or simply that both originate with the same kind of ice magic.   I'm not sold on any one possibility to these ends, but I strongly suspect the answer is somewhere in this direction.

 

 

 

Quick response.

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade lived in the Reach. He was supposedly a son of Garth Greenhand. Whatever the case, Red Lake is in the Reach close to Westerlands border. So, it is clear that there was probably a large gap of time between BotBB and the building of Winterfell. And the conquests of KoWs all happened after Winterfell was built in the North.

 

I agree with you that there's likely a lot of time that passed between BotBB and BtB/ Winterfell.   I should probably confess that I don't think that any of those historical figure's legends are likely super literal, though.   I mean, I tend to read the BotBB stuff not as a single person, but more like a time of conquest for the pre-Winterfell Starks or something like that.  I read BotBB to be an age of bloody massacre and conquest by the KoW that represents the pre-Winterfell Stark consolidation of power.

 

We don't know that all of the conquests happened after Winterfell was built.   The conventional timeline puts "BtB," Winterfell, the Wall and the founding of the Starks at the time of the LN.   But the WOIAF details conquests by the KoW that seem to take place before that would have occurred-- the ancient stuff with giants and Gaven, and possibly the Barrow Kings, Warg King and Blackwoods.  

 

(side point: I agree with your following post about the Blackwoods having ruled the Wolfswood before being driven out by the Starks; good to keep in mind when thinking about Bloodraven, perhaps).  

 

At any rate, I think my suggested interpretation still stands-- that the KoW were "rebranded" so to speak after the LN, which is where the BtB myth would come in, emphasizing alliance with the CotF and old gods, as well as Winterfell, with that massive godswood.   

 

So, basically, I tend to read the two big "Stark" figures as describing two different "ages" of the Kings of Winter-- BotBB as an anti-old gods (or, at least, non-old gods) era, and then BtB as the more modern era of the Starks when they adopted the the old gods and possibly when they developed old gods powers (like warging).   And I suspect that the LN might be the turning point if this interpretation is correct.

 

I'm not fully sold on anything too specific with this, except that I strongly suspect the Starks did wield ice like Targs/ Valyrians wield fire, but then put that power aside and adopted the old gods at a later point in time (for example, when it seemingly got out of control during the LN).

 

 

Slightly less short response: have you considered the idea that Bran the Builder was someone who lead reconstruction effects immediately after the Long Night?  

 

Yes.   Like I mentioned above, I think both BtB and BotBB are really more like "eras" in the history of the Kings of Winter, but I agree with your assertion that interpreting it as a post-LN reconstruction is compelling.   

[Mithras]

Let's start this this over.

 

First and foremost, EVERYTHING about ancient history (Kings of Winter, the Wall, the Others, CotF Pacts, etc) is open to interpretation.   None of the facts are particularly grounded, and it's ALL open to speculation.   

 

When you take all of the info we've been given, it does not add up to a consistent narrative.    What's literal versus metaphor, what the sequence of events are, the timeline-- all of it-- is questionable.     

 

When anyone tries to make sense of the ancient past, one inherently has to emphasize certain "facts" and myths and the like over others.   It is unlikely that every single thing we've been told actually played out exactly as we've been led to believe, because the narrative just doesn't make much sense that way, plotwise, as well as part of the the larger literary narrative.  

 

Speculation about the ancient past really comes down to how you're choosing to frame it broadly.  Until we get more grounded information about Others, Ancient Starks, the Watch and so forth, all we can do is see what makes big-picture sense according to various frameworks (and, in my case, I'm actually looking at the broad strokes; I'm not getting specific at all).

 

Notice that I'm not telling you that you're wrong, or accusing you of disregarding things in your interpretation as a means of discrediting or criticizing you.   I'm saying that we're ALL inherently having to emphasize and downplay various elements of these myths. because we simply just don't have enough info, and the info we have is confusing and often conflicting if not contradictory.  Everything about this subject falls under "speculation" rather than "fact."   It's just kind of how it is.

 

I don’t disagree here. I posted something related to this in another thread where the subject was the historical accounts of relatively recent times, not the stuff of myths and legends. Even with such documents from recent historical times, the maesters propose wildly varying timelines and theories. That can only be due to the nature of the documents at hand which should include omissions, gaps, forgeries, bias, contradictions, translation errors and whatnot. Like a modern historian, a maester considers a certain set of documents, disregards others and comes up with a narrative. Depending on which documents are considered and which documents are ignored, different narratives can be made.

 

The aim is to come up with a narrative which explains more facts and involves less holes/extrapolations.

 

onto this specific issue of whether or not the Others might have built the Wall:

 

Yea, I do happen to believe that the Others and Starks (and Boltons too, but let's leave that aside for now) are connected.  My broad thesis is that the Wall has something to do with the Kings of Winter consolidating their kingdom and/ or containing their enemies.  The WOIAF mentions more than merely the Starks vs Warg King in terms of Stark-CotF hostilities.   The KoW are specifically said to have had a long history of abusing the CotF.   That, combined with how the Wall seems like it might interfere with CotF-type powers is why I think the CotF and their allies are a good guess to that end.

 

This framework does answer the question you asked upthread, which is what I originally responded to.  You asked "Why would the Others build the Wall," as though the prospect of known ice-wielders building a magical ice Wall was the most absurd thing you'd ever heard.    And I said, essentially, that if you look at it from this other angle, then it gives the Others/ KoW/ whoever uses ice magic an incentive to build it.  

 

If discussion is truly desired, I can line up a fairly consistent interpretation of the historic events, as well as current story implications, looking through this lens.   There's a lot of thematic and plot elements that fall into place this way.   I mean, don't you always talk about Jon Snow as being "ice and fire?"   Where do you think that "ice" comes from?   The CotF?    The CotF are no more ice than they are fire.     You don't think that the existence of the two main families in a series titled A Song of Ice and Fire in which we know the Targs to be deeply connected to fire and the Starks always referenced adjacently to ice might be telling us something?

 

Long history of abusing the CotF is not correct as many other posters pointed out. After all, the Starks warred and defeated most of their current bannermen but some of them like Umbers are among the fiercest Stark loyalists. I just reread the early history of Stormlands and the narrative of how the Storm Kings expanded their kingdom is almost the same as the Starks. There are times of making wars with the giants and the CotF. There are times of making peace with the CotF (the giants were said to be almost always hostile to the humans there). The CotF were present in small numbers even as the Andals were coming because Storm Kings and the CotF defeated the Andals in some battles.

 

So, a long history of warfare with the CotF does not make much sense in anywhere where the First Men and the CotF came across.

 

I don’t disregard the possibility that the Starks have the blood of the Others. Perhaps they got it from the Boltons because two Boltons in a row are inhumanely cruel with icy eyes. Although there is a suspicious lack of Stark-Bolton marriages in the last 250 years, it is not a remote possibility that the Starks married the Boltons or the bannermen they married had Bolton descent in the long history, which might be how the blood of the Others crept into the Stark bloodline.

[butterbumps!]

Long history of abusing the CotF is not correct as many other posters pointed out. After all, the Starks warred and defeated most of their current bannermen but some of them like Umbers are among the fiercest Stark loyalists. I just reread the early history of Stormlands and the narrative of how the Storm Kings expanded their kingdom is almost the same as the Starks. There are times of making wars with the giants and the CotF. There are times of making peace with the CotF (the giants were said to be almost always hostile to the humans there). The CotF were present in small numbers even as the Andals were coming because Storm Kings and the CotF defeated the Andals in some battles.

 

So, a long history of warfare with the CotF does not make much sense in anywhere where the First Men and the CotF came across.

 

I don’t disregard the possibility that the Starks have the blood of the Others. Perhaps they got it from the Boltons because two Boltons in a row are inhumanely cruel with icy eyes. Although there is a suspicious lack of Stark-Bolton marriages in the last 250 years, it is not a remote possibility that the Starks married the Boltons or the bannermen they married had Bolton descent in the long history, which might be how the blood of the Others crept into the Stark bloodline.

 

Mithras, the text does support the position that the KoW fought against the CotF and/ or the CotF-related parties (such as skinchangers and wargs) for a really long time.

 

Our first introduction is the BotBB legend.   However you want to slice it, the fact is that it's in the text as a very explicit example of a dedicated campaign against the CotF.  It really sets the tone for these pre-BtB Kings of Winter.   Then we get:

1. ancient ballads telling us of the KoW eradicating the CotF's sometimes ally, the giants, from the North
2. the War of the Wolves involving the destruction of the family of Gaven Greywolf
3. driving out of the Blackwoods from what's now the Wolfswood (who are very strongly connected to old gods related business)
4. the War for Sea Dragon Point, where the KoW threw down the Warg King, and killed all his sons, beasts, and greenseers

That they fought against CotF, allies and old gods followers doesn't necessarily mean that they were specifically anti-old gods, that they exclusively went after CotF-related parties, or even that they themselves didn't follow the old gods themselves early on.   

 

I am not claiming that this proves anything either way.  But it is inaccurate to say that there's no suggestion that the KoW were long at odds with the CotF/ CotF-allies/ old gods powers.   That reading is most definitely consistent with what we're given.   There are other possibilities, of course, but that doesn't negate this rendering of it.

 

Disagree with my argument, but please stop saying that such a reading is not supported.   

[Mithras]

I am not denying that the Starks waged war against the CotF. The hostility of the Starks against the CotF does not seem to be based on anything other than imperialist expansion. We know that Starks attacked everyone, not only the CotF. And eventually, they made peace with everyone as long as they bent knee to Winterfell. So, there is nothing special about the CotF. In fact, with this reasoning, you can make a better case with ice-magic wielding Starks building the Wall to condemn the unruly First Men to the far North after they refused to bend knee.

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade does not have a Stark surname, nor was he described as a king. The existence of pre-BtB Kings of Winter is an assumption. The historical account both in the World Book and the main series clearly states that House Stark was founded by BtB when he built Winterfell. This might not be the case but for that, you have to back this assumption up with additional facts and explanations.  Mithras, the text does support the position that the KoW fought against the CotF and/ or the CotF-related parties (such as skinchangers and wargs) for a really long time.

 

Our first introduction is the BotBB legend.   However you want to slice it, the fact is that it's in the text as a very explicit example of a dedicated campaign against the CotF.  It really sets the tone for these pre-BtB Kings of Winter.   Then we get:

1. ancient ballads telling us of the KoW eradicating the CotF's sometimes ally, the giants, from the North
2. the War of the Wolves involving the destruction of the family of Gaven Greywolf
3. driving out of the Blackwoods from what's now the Wolfswood (who are very strongly connected to old gods related business)
4. the War for Sea Dragon Point, where the KoW threw down the Warg King, and killed all his sons, beasts, and greenseers

That they fought against CotF, allies and old gods followers doesn't necessarily mean that they were specifically anti-old gods, that they exclusively went after CotF-related parties, or even that they themselves didn't follow the old gods themselves early on.   

 

I am not claiming that this proves anything either way.  But it is inaccurate to say that there's no suggestion that the KoW were long at odds with the CotF/ CotF-allies/ old gods powers.   That reading is most definitely consistent with what we're given.   There are other possibilities, of course, but that doesn't negate this rendering of it.

 

Disagree with my argument, but please stop saying that such a reading is not supported.   

 

I am not denying that the Starks waged war against the CotF. The hostility of the Starks against the CotF does not seem to be based on anything other than expansionist policies. We know that Starks attacked everyone, not only the CotF. And eventually, they made peace with everyone as long as they bent knee to Winterfell. So, there is nothing special about the CotF. Same is true for the Storm Kings. In fact, with this reasoning, you can make a better case with ice-magic wielding Starks building the Wall to condemn the unruly First Men to the frozen wilderness of the far North after they refused to bend knee.

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade does not have a Stark surname, nor was he described as a king. The existence of pre-BtB Kings of Winter is an assumption. The historical account both in the World Book and the main series clearly states that House Stark was founded by BtB when he built Winterfell. This might not be the actual case but for that, you have to back this assumption up with additional facts and justifications.

 

I think such a reading is not supported well enough compared to other alternatives.

[butterbumps!]

I am not denying that the Starks waged war against the CotF. The hostility of the Starks against the CotF does not seem to be based on anything other than expansionist policies. We know that Starks attacked everyone, not only the CotF. And eventually, they made peace with everyone as long as they bent knee to Winterfell. So, there is nothing special about the CotF. Same is true for the Storm Kings. In fact, with this reasoning, you can make a better case with ice-magic wielding Starks building the Wall to condemn the unruly First Men to the frozen wilderness of the far North after they refused to bend knee.

 
Ok, this is getting a little bit frustrating.   The idea that the Starks waged war on the CotF as part of an expansionist strategy is exactly what I proposed as the rationale behind it, and you even quoted that post earlier, so I know you had to have read it.  from this post:

If I were a King of Winter, trying to gain total domination of the North, but there were these CotF with magical powers, and these allies of the CotF who shared some of those powers like skinchanging, well, I'd make a point of trying to gain an advantage magically too.  In addition to strengthening my own magical powers I'd try to find a way to reduce theirs.   Hence, where something like the Wall would come in.   If the type of magic the CotF used was interfering too much with the Stark aims, then they'd need to take drastic measures.   

 

And I did suggest that this was not just about CotF but the people and whatever other entities align with old gods business!   Numerous times!    I'm saying that that's what the wildlings are doing behind the Wall!   These wildlings-- who are super into the CotF and the old gods, and have a healthy bunch more of skinchangers and wargs than we see in the south-- are entirely part of what I'm suggesting as having been the targets of an anti-old gods/ CotF scouring of the North!   These people and other entities with magical abilities would be a direct challenge to the KoW power.   What on earth do you think I've been talking about this whole time?

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade does not have a Stark surname, nor was he described as a king. The existence of pre-BtB Kings of Winter is an assumption. The historical account both in the World Book and the main series clearly states that House Stark was founded by BtB when he built Winterfell. This might not be the actual case but for that, you have to back this assumption up with additional facts and justifications.
 
I think such a reading is not supported well enough compared to other alternatives.

I don't understand.  You are saying that there is no support to the idea that the Starks predate Winterfell or BtB?    If so, then you're basically saying that there were no Starks/ KoW prior to the Long Night?   So is your position that the Starks are a relatively new House, created after the Long Night?  That all of those power consolidations we see in the Kings of Winter section of the World Book all took place after the Long Night, Winterfell, BtB and the Wall/ Watch were founded, including the super ancient ones referenced at the beginning involving driving out the giants and Gaven?

[Mithras]

 Ok, this is getting a little bit frustrating.   The idea that the Starks waged war on the CotF as part of an expansionist strategy is exactly what I proposed as the rationale behind it, and you even quoted that post earlier, so I know you had to have read it.  from this post:

If I were a King of Winter, trying to gain total domination of the North, but there were these CotF with magical powers, and these allies of the CotF who shared some of those powers like skinchanging, well, I'd make a point of trying to gain an advantage magically too.  In addition to strengthening my own magical powers I'd try to find a way to reduce theirs.   Hence, where something like the Wall would come in.   If the type of magic the CotF used was interfering too much with the Stark aims, then they'd need to take drastic measures.   

 

And I did suggest that this was not just about CotF but the people and whatever other entities align with old gods business!   Numerous times!    I'm saying that that's what the wildlings are doing behind the Wall!   These wildlings-- who are super into the CotF and the old gods, and have a healthy bunch more of skinchangers and wargs than we see in the south-- are entirely part of what I'm suggesting as having been the targets of an anti-old gods/ CotF scouring of the North!   These people and other entities with magical abilities would be a direct challenge to the KoW power.   What on earth do you think I've been talking about this whole time?

 

But the Wall simply cannot function as you would have it. I think most readers believe that building the Wall is an extreme measure. I don’t think the Starks needed to take such an extreme measure to defeat/subdue the CotF and their allies and contain them in the North. We know that the Wall cannot contain them in the North. The Storm Kings were able to subdue the CotF without such extreme measures. Later, the Andals were able to sweep the First Men along with the CotF. Their magic could not stop the Andals.

 

As a result, I think your justification of building the Wall (which is the main subject here) in this context is not reasonable. 

 

I don't understand.  You are saying that there is no support to the idea that the Starks predate Winterfell or BtB?    If so, then you're basically saying that there were no Starks/ KoW prior to the Long Night?   So is your position that the Starks are a relatively new House, created after the Long Night?  That all of those power consolidations we see in the Kings of Winter section of the World Book all took place after the Long Night, Winterfell, BtB and the Wall/ Watch were founded, including the super ancient ones referenced at the beginning involving driving out the giants and Gaven?

 

I don’t recall any proof of Starks existing as Starks before the Long Night. And yes to all. The power consolidation happened after Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder. His descendants were called Kings of Winter, not his forebears. I am not sure how you got the opposite idea. I thought it was pretty clear from the North section of the World Book. 

[LmL]

Yeah, I am agreeing that all the post-BtB Stark history happened after the LN. I think before the LN, it's likely hardly anyone lived north of the neck at all. But that does t make them a new house - all the old houses in Westeros really date back to the Long Night. The Long Night would have been a cultural bottleneck, a "back to anarchy" type of event. Most people would have died, hardly any food to eat, mass starvation and chaos, etc. It's possible the cotf are the main reason more than a handful of Westerosi survived at all. So, any house existent in Weteros at this time would most likely be starting over after the LN. They would have lost a lot of their culture and history - even in the LN was only 10 years or so, just think about living through a decade of pure anarchy and famine, mixed in with massive environmental turmoil and possibly some kind of dark lord Bloodstone Emperor guy with his reign of terror, or other similar folks.

Basically, the LN would have been hitting the reset button. Most if not all of the history we get probably comes from after the LN. Only the most important events would be remembered from before, and those only in mythical form. These accounts are certainly still valid - I give myth a lot of credibility - but really we shouldn't expect very much information to have crossed that threshold.... Whatever man knew after the LN might have depended largely on whatever the cotf / greenseers wanted to tell them. Hence the cotf involvement in the founding of the Citadel and their early exploits, possible involvement with BtB, Wingerd Knight, other people like that.

I tend to look at the cotf as trying to "civilize" or "housebreak" the First Men, since they realized they could not stop them and had to coexist. That's why we see this back and forth with the FM antagonism to cotf - the cotf don't just go away, they keep hanging around and being directly involved with man, eventually succeeding in converting the FM to the weirwood worship. Of course not everyone was down, so some humans still warred on the cotf.

Also, let's not forget that once cotf started teaching humans the tree magic (which probably started before the LN and certainly continued afterward) we now have HUMANS with greenseer magic at their disposal to take into account. The cotf have lived in Westeros for a thousand thousand years, main thing a continuous culture. That speaks of sustainability. Then along comes the FM, and sooner or later in the process of trying to housebreak the FM, the cotf create human greenseers (through interbreeding or magic or both). But humans are notoriously fickle and self-serving - so when I hear about Gaven Greywolf or the Warg King and all his greenseers, I don't see that as simply cotf vs. humans. That sounds like two human greenseer kings duking it out. I for one find it very, very likely that the Starks have been greenseers from the very first. Those wolf statues next to the Kings of Winter aren't just there for effect. Their power CAME FROM their warging and skinchanging, I suspect.

[pigpiginsunspear]

Side question, just curious, how do you think GRRM is going to confirm any (big assumption he does anyway) of this?  It happened so so long ago that a POV character obviously cannot recall or "experience" it.  There are no books that old and the ones that are really old are falling apart.  There might be a well preserved book in the ruins of old Valyria, I guess.

 

The only way I can think of is through Bran's POV.  He should be able to peer in back in time and see the Wall being built, the LN, etc.

 

Lucifer the Lightbringer, I've read your posts, they're great, but how will we ever know, for example, that it was actually a comet that destroyed the Arm of Dorne.