Heresy 176

[Bran the Bringer]

I can imagine Rickon and Arya embracing the weirnet and unleashing hell on the enemies of their family. My favourite theory of the origin of the Long Night and the Others is the combination of the weirnet with vengeful human greenseers.

 

Do they have the personalities to do so?

 

While it might be cool or wonderfully magical to have Arya or Rickon blasting firey or icy balls of death from Weirwood faces we have to look at what the text says and make our inferences.

 

Rickon's personality when we last saw him was not the sort of personality typically associated with someone who is going to achieve mastery over his emotions. He doesn't ask a lot of questions, like Bran does, he runs around in an emotional fog barely able to communicate properly with others and clearly not showing mastery of his warging powers. The wolf is in as much charge as the boy is. It's true he is still a boy but there will have to be some folks who understand his situation and have a strong and unwavering desire to see him master his emotions, working with his warging abilities in addition to any greenseeing abilities he may have, and some other Greenseer to work with in order for that to happen. It just seems far fetched.

 

Leaf or BR, I do not remember which or have my books for a bit, says that only one in a thousand wargs can become a greenseer so there must be a reason for this. You have to have the right sort of life experiences and personality type to be able to do this. It is mentally and emotionally rigorous and can not be done by those who do not have the appropriate strength of mind or emotional disposition. If you can not master your own emotions how on earth are you going to master something infinitely more powerful?

 

It's true that Arya is definetly working on sublimating emotions and learning a bit about magic as well, but I still have a tough time believing she would allow herself to be placed immobile in a tree root system allowing roots to grow through her body and keeping her from draining the life from those on whom she seeks revenge. I don't imagine she sees herself doing it with magic at a distance but rather up close and personal, their life blood spilling on her hands. For me that would be more satisfying from a character perspective.

[Matthew.]

I don't think anyone here uses these threads as an anti-Targ platform, I think it more correctly viewed as a place where those interested in what's going on with the North can discuss this with a greater emphasis on text based support than is common in other threads. 

Having posted here for months - indeed, this is almost exclusively the only thread that I read and post in - and having lurked much longer than that, I just can't agree with this. I wouldn't say it's a specifically anti-Targ sentiment, it's more that many posters here seem to find certain elements of the story more interesting, and other elements more cheesy and boring, and those biases are a heavy influence on their theories.

As I said, I feel that theories here are often incomplete in the same way that theories that try to solve everything with the dragons are incomplete.

Using just Bloodraven as an example, any efforts to explore the breadth of what he is (or is not) up to, or what his motives are, will gain little traction here, because it's practically Heresy canon that Bloodraven is "really a Blackwood," and that whole chunks of his life spent with the Targ regime are either irrelevant, or only relevant in terms of the Bracken/Blackwood feud. Some posters even go so far as to invent outright fan fiction about how BR was "raised as a Blackwood," something not at all stated or supported by the text. 

To be clear, I'm not trying to just endlessly knock Heresy - it's my favorite thread for a reason, and that's because it's asking the questions I'm most interested in, and the answers proposed are often creative - I just think this thread is well past the point where every idea needs to be delivered with an undercurrent of "well, unlike The Faithful in Another Place, we're just a little smarter around here..." 

[Black Crow]

I wouldn't say we're smarter and certainly make no claim to infallibility. I know that my own views have changed enormously over the years as we've run in and out of so many rabbit holes. Whilst there can appear to be an anti-Targaryen feel to the thread, I strongly disagree with the notion that I or anyone else in these here parts is a "Rhaegar-hater". This is a work of fiction for the Gods' sake.

 

Rather its a reaction, as I said earlier, against the popular obsession with seeing everything in Targaryen terms and trying instead to look at what's going on in a more open and rounded way.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Having posted here for months - indeed, this is almost exclusively the only thread that I read and post in - and having lurked much longer than that, I just can't agree with this. I wouldn't say it's a specifically anti-Targ sentiment, it's more that many posters here seem to find certain elements of the story more interesting, and other elements more cheesy and boring, and those biases are a heavy influence on their theories.

As I said, I feel that theories here are often incomplete in the same way that theories that try to solve everything with the dragons are incomplete.

Using just Bloodraven as an example, any efforts to explore the breadth of what he is (or is not) up to, or what his motives are, will gain little traction here, because it's practically Heresy canon that Bloodraven is "really a Blackwood," and that whole chunks of his life spent with the Targ regime are either irrelevant, or only relevant in terms of the Bracken/Blackwood feud. Some posters even go so far as to invent outright fan fiction about how BR was "raised as a Blackwood," something not at all stated or supported by the text. 

To be clear, I'm not trying to just endlessly knock Heresy - it's my favorite thread for a reason, and that's because it's asking the questions I'm most interested in, and the answers proposed are often creative - I just think this thread is well past the point where every idea needs to be delivered with an undercurrent of "well, unlike The Faithful in Another Place, we're just a little smarter around here..." 

I myself believe BR background as Targaryen more important than his background as Blackwood, for some reasons.

I have nothing against Targaryens, but I am totally against the thought people have that being a Targaryen means instant superiority, to racist levels.

By the way, I also believe Aegon is the real boy. We are promised a DotD and there is no other Targaryen, not hooked on a tree, in sight.

[Black Crow]

 

Do they have the personalities to do so?

 

While it might be cool or wonderfully magical to have Arya or Rickon blasting firey or icy balls of death from Weirwood faces we have to look at what the text says and make our inferences.

 

Rickon's personality when we last saw him was not the sort of personality typically associated with someone who is going to achieve mastery over his emotions. He doesn't ask a lot of questions, like Bran does, he runs around in an emotional fog barely able to communicate properly with others and clearly not showing mastery of his warging powers. The wolf is in as much charge as the boy is. It's true he is still a boy but there will have to be some folks who understand his situation and have a strong and unwavering desire to see him master his emotions, working with his warging abilities in addition to any greenseeing abilities he may have, and some other Greenseer to work with in order for that to happen. It just seems far fetched.

 

Leaf or BR, I do not remember which or have my books for a bit, says that only one in a thousand wargs can become a greenseer so there must be a reason for this. You have to have the right sort of life experiences and personality type to be able to do this. It is mentally and emotionally rigorous and can not be done by those who do not have the appropriate strength of mind or emotional disposition. If you can not master your own emotions how on earth are you going to master something infinitely more powerful?

 

It's true that Arya is definetly working on sublimating emotions and learning a bit about magic as well, but I still have a tough time believing she would allow herself to be placed immobile in a tree root system allowing roots to grow through her body and keeping her from draining the life from those on whom she seeks revenge. I don't imagine she sees herself doing it with magic at a distance but rather up close and personal, their life blood spilling on her hands. For me that would be more satisfying from a character perspective.

 

I really can't get my head around Rickon returning from Skagos in a significant capacity. He certainly doesn't appear to be the greenseer type and I think that may be reflected in the business of Bran being so laid back. Perhaps you do indeed need to be in order to become a greenseer.

 

Rickon the warlord is a far more likely option but while I can see him re-appearing as a distraction or a threat I can't see him turning into a major protagonist. 

 

Here's what GRRM said in the synopsis:

 

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters

 

We can argue as to how many have joined the original five since 1993, but the point is that all the way through we're following these characters as they grow up, mature and change the world and themselves. Rickon however stands apart from this. We leave him as a snivelling child and as and when he returns he will inevitably be a stranger rather than a core character.

[Lord Ravenstark]

As for the argument of personality, Bran only became detached after falling and being crippled. Before that he was one of most active Stark siblings. Personality can change, if it was a matter of such great deal they would start to cripple boys and girls left and right. The truth is: no one wants to be hooked on a tree. Bran only accepted it because he thinks there is nothing else in the world for him (quite sad for such a young child) but the thing is, you can produce this effect in almost everyone. I have no reason to think BR was lying when he said the blood makes the greenseer, everything else is just training.

[Black Crow]

I myself believe BR background as Targaryen more important than his background as Blackwood, for some reasons.

 

I actually don't see it as an either/or situation. I think that its important to remember the timescale involved. Way back in the day, although the importance of the Blackwood-Bracken feud can't be overlooked or underestimated, Bloodraven certainly was a key figure in the Targaryen regime, but that was a long time ago and Kurtz is now sitting in the Heart of Darkness as a Blackwood rather than a Targaryen. 

[wolfmaid7]

Eh...this isn't really what I was getting at, and seems a little overly dire. By and large, I think BC has been a force for good, I just think he may underestimate the amount of referent power he wields within this thread--by weighing in on something, he does tend to set the tone for the next several pages, even if that wasn't his intent.

To be frank, what I'm getting at is more of a criticism of Heresy itself, which is not limited to any single poster. I think this thread has gone a little too far in trying to make itself the "answer" to RLJ mania; there's a perception that the community (and, in particular, the RLJ thread) is giving disproportionate focus to all things related to Targaryens, secret Targaryens, dragons, and sitting the Iron Throne. Thus, as an answer, this thread specifically crafts theories that give disproportionate emphasis to all things related to the Starks, the North, and the CotF, often at the expense of more nuanced and inclusive conclusions.

To me, the answer to perceived RLJ dogmatism is not to be dogmatic in the opposite direction, the answer is objectivity, critical thought, and a willingness to not just see what's flawed about a theory, but also to see what's supportive of a theory - even if we personally dislike that theory, and hope it doesn't turn out to be true.

It's that last metric where I think Heresy is really falling short; at the risk of playing forums mind reader, it seems pretty clear to me that several posters really, really dislike anything related to the Targaryens, to the idea of dragon riding, and to the idea of Azor Ahai, to such an extent that their theories ignore huge elements of the plot; thus, Jon is all Stark, Bloodraven is all Blackwood, and heaven help the poster who dares to come in here and suggest that someone's favorite character might end up as a dragon rider (or warging into a dragon).

In short, I think discussions in Heresy would be well served if this thread just let go of its...rivalry?... with certain segments of the forums, and attempt to assess ideas in a vacuum, instead of allowing their personal dislike for other posters and ideas to bleed into every discussion. 

I disagree with this a bit and here's why who Jon's parents are or were wasn't something discussed a lot on Heresy. I still think overall most Heretics are pro RLJ. If you were here around Heresy 40's or so those how thought the other felt very marginalized because they were being bogged down with RLJ rhetoric. The difference now is they no longer do because they have that space.But big portion of us still think it matters very little when it comes to the overall. I for one think Jon will stand on the authority of his own name......Snow.


And that its revelation is more a personal issue especially when it comes to his mother. He already had a
A dad and it was Ned.So I don't think we've become and answer or opposite. For some its a matter of just having your idea on the matter given a safe space and not be given crap if you vehemently believe otherwise.

People especially new people may want to discuss Jon's parentage thats the nature of the beast.Hence the reason for the essays where we will talk about it,pole it and put it to bed so we can get back to the creepy.

As we have seen among the newbies they felt really bullied elsewhere and they just want to air what they are thinking out.Nothings wrong with that. But for the most part again some of us just dont care.

[Tucu]

 

Do they have the personalities to do so?

 

While it might be cool or wonderfully magical to have Arya or Rickon blasting firey or icy balls of death from Weirwood faces we have to look at what the text says and make our inferences.

 

Rickon's personality when we last saw him was not the sort of personality typically associated with someone who is going to achieve mastery over his emotions. He doesn't ask a lot of questions, like Bran does, he runs around in an emotional fog barely able to communicate properly with others and clearly not showing mastery of his warging powers. The wolf is in as much charge as the boy is. It's true he is still a boy but there will have to be some folks who understand his situation and have a strong and unwavering desire to see him master his emotions, working with his warging abilities in addition to any greenseeing abilities he may have, and some other Greenseer to work with in order for that to happen. It just seems far fetched.

 

Leaf or BR, I do not remember which or have my books for a bit, says that only one in a thousand wargs can become a greenseer so there must be a reason for this. You have to have the right sort of life experiences and personality type to be able to do this. It is mentally and emotionally rigorous and can not be done by those who do not have the appropriate strength of mind or emotional disposition. If you can not master your own emotions how on earth are you going to master something infinitely more powerful?

 

It's true that Arya is definetly working on sublimating emotions and learning a bit about magic as well, but I still have a tough time believing she would allow herself to be placed immobile in a tree root system allowing roots to grow through her body and keeping her from draining the life from those on whom she seeks revenge. I don't imagine she sees herself doing it with magic at a distance but rather up close and personal, their life blood spilling on her hands. For me that would be more satisfying from a character perspective.

I didn't mean that I expect Rickon and Arya to become greenseers. Just that if they were given greenseers powers they would use them for revenge. I assume that Bran, BR and maybe some Green Men will be the only greenseers in the series.

 

We don't know what makes a greenseer; are they born with certain traits, or any skinchanger can be nurtured and/or chosen by the trees?

Bloodraven himself has a history of violence, hate and vengeance. How much he changed before or after become a greenseer, we don't know. We also don't know what events has he influenced in his almost 50 years plugged into the weirwoods.

[Matthew.]

I wouldn't say we're smarter and certainly make no claim to infallibility. I know that my own views have changed enormously over the years as we've run in and out of so many rabbit holes. Whilst there can appear to be an anti-Targaryen feel to the thread, I strongly disagree with the notion that I or anyone else in these here parts is a "Rhaegar-hater". This is a work of fiction for the Gods' sake.

 

Rather its a reaction, as I said earlier, against the popular obsession with seeing everything in Targaryen terms and trying instead to look at what's going on in a more open and rounded way.

Well, to beat a dead horse, I think in some areas the notion of "open and rounded discussion" is an ideal that is paid lip service, but not lived up to in truth.

I wouldn't characterize the sentiment specifically as "Targ hate," so much as...Targ boredom? Targ exhaustion? Targ overexposure? 

As a consequence, I believe some theories (or arguments against other theories) really do just boil down to "That's not going to happen, because I don't want it to happen." 

[Bran the Bringer]

As for the argument of personality, Bran only became detached after falling and being crippled. Before that he was one of most active Stark siblings. Personality can change, if it was a matter of such great deal they would start to cripple boys and girls left and right. The truth is: no one wants to be hooked on a tree. Bran only accepted it because he thinks there is nothing else in the world for him (quite sad for such a young child) but the thing is, you can produce this effect in almost everyone. I have no reason to think BR was lying when he said the blood makes the greenseer, everything else is just training.

 

Yes personalities can certainly change. No argument there either in text ot in real life analogs.

 

From the text ADwD Bran's chapter midway through the book:

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," said Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of a forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to recieve the gift. The ones chosen are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have it's balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the ancient trees. Greenseers."

 

So in some sense yes it is in the blood, but these Greenseers are not typically hale and hearty Men or Children. Because they recieve so much power there must be a balance. Even the long lived Childrens' fires are burned low by the acceptance of this power. It forces a toll to be taken by the ones who would use it's power. It doesn't come for free and it can't come easy. And that's what it does to CotF who were built/evolved to believe this way, it certainly could be more tramatic and necessary that humans have an even stronger reaction to this acceptance of power because they are not built/evolved for it.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, to beat a dead horse, I think in some areas the notion of "open and rounded discussion" is an ideal that is paid lip service, but not lived up to in truth.

I wouldn't characterize the sentiment specifically as "Targ hate," so much as...Targ boredom? Targ exhaustion? Targ overexposure? 

As a consequence, I believe some theories (or arguments against other theories) really do just boil down to "That's not going to happen, because I don't want it to happen." 

Really? I dont think anyone on here has the attitude of "That's not going to happen, because I dont want it to happen" Ive seen that thrown around a lot and in truth it can be very dismissive of people who genuinely think RLJ is wrong. That to me is another way of censorship.

If you believe that its fine but in no way I think its fair to characterize people as Rhaegar haters because they honestly dont believe he's the father. It kind of sets that theory un deservingly on a pedestal so if anyone has even dates to question it they are Rhaegar/Targ haters or have no reading comprehension skills

[Matthew.]

Really? I dont think anyone on here has the attitude of "That's not going to happen, because I dont want it to happen" Ive seen that thrown around a lot and in truth it can be very dismissive of people who genuinely think RLJ is wrong. That to me is another way of censorship.

If you believe that its fine but in no way I think its fair to characterize people as Rhaegar haters because they honestly dont believe he's the father. It kind of sets that theory un deservingly on a pedestal so if anyone has even dates to question it they are Rhaegar/Targ haters or have no reading comprehension skills

I said nothing about whether or not Rhaegar is Jon's father, nor did I say anyone is a "Rhaegar hater." I wouldn't say such a thing since I myself find him to be a pretty lame character--not as bad as Darkstar, but I'm not fond of some of the writing choices GRRM has made there.

With all due respect, I think "I don't want that to happen" is precisely the attitude some people have when they're assessing the possibility that certain events might occur. It's one thing to say "Hold your horses! Before we go off on this Targ tangent, lets analyze all of the factors that also strongly tie Jon to the North and to the Wall," it's something else entirely to outright dismiss other scenarios as being within the realm of possibility.

There aren't many objective standards by which one can determine that something won't happen, so going down that road inherently invites a lot of subjectivity, and personal feelings. When someone declares a particular scenario cliche, or cheesy, what is that, if not a purely subjective judgment? That doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect, but it is, in it's own way, just as dismissive as the attitudes expressed within the RLJ thread.

Edit: This has nothing to do with "is RLJ correct" (something I myself am not convinced of), this is about what I perceive as a failure on Heresy's part to live up to the standard of debate and discussion that it espouses.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I feel like people here in heresy can be a bit dismissive of any theory that they see as too obvious because " GRRM doesnt do obvious". But whats obvious is in the eye of the beholder

[Sly Wren]

As for the argument of personality, Bran only became detached after falling and being crippled. Before that he was one of most active Stark siblings. Personality can change, if it was a matter of such great deal they would start to cripple boys and girls left and right. The truth is: no one wants to be hooked on a tree. Bran only accepted it because he thinks there is nothing else in the world for him (quite sad for such a young child) but the thing is, you can produce this effect in almost everyone. I have no reason to think BR was lying when he said the blood makes the greenseer, everything else is just training.

 

I didn't mean that I expect Rickon and Arya to become greenseers. Just that if they were given greenseers powers they would use them for revenge. I assume that Bran, BR and maybe some Green Men will be the only greenseers in the series.

 

We don't know what makes a greenseer; are they born with certain traits, or any skinchanger can be nurtured and/or chosen by the trees?

Bloodraven himself has a history of violence, hate and vengeance. How much he changed before or after become a greenseer, we don't know. We also don't know what events has he influenced in his almost 50 years plugged into the weirwoods.

Yeah--the bolded on both statements worries me. Bran's in the hands (or roots) of a man with a history of using violence as he sees fit. For the "good of the realm." 

 

Bran's thought at least once that if men had lost their land as the Children have, they'd fight. And, as was mentioned a little while back, we've seen him enjoy fighting and dominating while in Summer (dominating other wolves). 

 

So, I agree that blood makes the greenseer possible. No reason to doubt that. But the training--Bran's being trained by this greenseer. With his history. A greenseer who was sent to the Wall for doing something to protect the realm and his family. Who later saw his family destroyed.

 

And now Bloodraven has Bran. Who has seen what happened to his father who tried to do something for the good of the realm (though Bran likely doesn't know all the details). Who is  likely to see a lot more details about the destruction of his family and the North via the trees.

 

So--the kind of greenseer one becomes seems like it could be tied to the training. And thus I am once again worried about Bran.

[Sly Wren]

I didn't mean that I expect Rickon and Arya to become greenseers. Just that if they were given greenseers powers they would use them for revenge. I assume that Bran, BR and maybe some Green Men will be the only greenseers in the series.

Agreed. But Arya's already being trained in violence and vengeance/justice. Rickon has visions and Shaggy--doesn't need more than that to be terrifying.

 

Bran had that thought about being a wolf and finding the enemy and the Kingslayer and ripping out his throat. Finding Sansa and Arya as a wolf and protecting them. I think his "temperament" as a greenseer is going to be as scary as Arya in a lot of ways. Don't need any more of the Stark kids being greenseers if that's Bran's take on it. That's just my take. 

 

And, for good measure with the kids, Sansa's being trained by a killer, too. 

 

Really think the whole family is in a scary way. And completely agree they'd all be out for revenge.

[Mother of Dragons]

[*]New Poster realizes that if he/she reallocated spare time from ASOIAF message board to stock market message boards the he/she would be rich.[/*]
[*]New Poster is never seen or heard from again[/*]
[/LIST]I have seen this process repeat itself dozens & dozens of times over the past few years...
 
Then enters New Poster #2 & the process repeats... Some take longer than others to turn on the black crow, but they always do. The Black Crow is rather narrow-minded & he seldom likes an idea that is not his own... But I have a long list of character flaws myself & even share many with the Black Crow...

LOL!
I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge my question about when it's foreshadowed that Jon and Ghost will find Benjen...

[Phillip Frye]

I wouldn't say we're smarter and certainly make no claim to infallibility. I know that my own views have changed enormously over the years as we've run in and out of so many rabbit holes. Whilst there can appear to be an anti-Targaryen feel to the thread, I strongly disagree with the notion that I or anyone else in these here parts is a "Rhaegar-hater". This is a work of fiction for the Gods' sake.

 

Rather its a reaction, as I said earlier, against the popular obsession with seeing everything in Targaryen terms and trying instead to look at what's going on in a more open and rounded way.

 

I would like to step in and echo whatever viewpoints the Black Crow is pushing in this post.  I am sure that Addicted to New Posters will do the same.

[Bran the Bringer]

Agreed. But Arya's already being trained in violence and vengeance/justice. Rickon has visions and Shaggy--doesn't need more than that to be terrifying.

 

Bran had that thought about being a wolf and finding the enemy and the Kingslayer and ripping out his throat. Finding Sansa and Arya as a wolf and protecting them. I think his "temperament" as a greenseer is going to be as scary as Arya in a lot of ways. Don't need any more of the Stark kids being greenseers if that's Bran's take on it. That's just my take. 

 

And, for good measure with the kids, Sansa's being trained by a killer, too. 

 

Really think the whole family is in a scary way. And completely agree they'd all be out for revenge.

 

 

No I did not imply there should be more Stark greenseers, nor do I think it would make the story more interesting. That was a response to someone else's discussion of it.

 

I was really only suggesting, not saying I believe it, that it takes a certain personality type and a lack of wholeness to become a greenseer beyond just the blood. 1 in 1000 CotF become skinchangers 1 in 1000 skinchangers become greenseers. So not everyone "with the blood" as it were is necessarily capable of of becoming a greenseer.

 

This was as a response to a question as to why Bran wasn't freaking out about the deaths of the CotF as described by Leaf and how humans would have been wroth.

 

As to how terrifying Bran may become the door is literally wide open. If the Weirwood 'net extends as far as I expect and if the powers usuable by a greenseer can operate through that 'net well the implication is certainly huge as to areas that could be affected without him having to move. It may still just be localized personal magical phenomenon like speaking through the trees or skinchanging someone near wherever those Weirwoods are as opposed to say snow storms that rage all the way to the borders of Dorne. But it does lead the mind to wander.

 

The thought that 10's of thousands of years worth of CotF have literally implanted their memories and knowledges, maybe their souls, in the trees accessable to him now or very soon in addition to BR's assuming he gets to die and implant his memories is even a terrifying thought as to what that could do to someone's psychology and what kind of person might emerge on the other side.

 

And speaking of BR is it fair to say that his presence as a greenseer with the knowledge of different ways of working magic than the CotF is unique?

Is he the First Human Greenseer? I don't recall there being another. I might be a little suspicious if there hadn't been another but I could logically explain it myself.

Has there been another Greenseer with half-Targ blood?

Did BR reconcile his knowledge/ability to perform more human style sorcery with the abilities of a CotF Greenseer? With his knowledges/abilities with Dragons? Could Bran inherit these potentially new magics upon the death and merging of BR?

 

That has been knocking around my head lately and I can't dismiss it. Please help me falsify. I can't find an example of another human greenseer or another half Targ greenseer in the text.

 

See we talk about Targ stuff sometimes. :grouphug:

[wolfmaid7]

I said nothing about whether or not Rhaegar is Jon's father, nor did I say anyone is a "Rhaegar hater." I wouldn't say such a thing since I myself find him to be a pretty lame character--not as bad as Darkstar, but I'm not fond of some of the writing choices GRRM has made there.

With all due respect, I think "I don't want that to happen" is precisely the attitude some people have when they're assessing the possibility that certain events might occur. It's one thing to say "Hold your horses! Before we go off on this Targ tangent, lets analyze all of the factors that also strongly tie Jon to the North and to the Wall," it's something else entirely to outright dismiss other scenarios as being within the realm of possibility.

There aren't many objective standards by which one can determine that something won't happen, so going down that road inherently invites a lot of subjectivity, and personal feelings. When someone declares a particular scenario cliche, or cheesy, what is that, if not a purely subjective judgment? That doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect, but it is, in it's own way, just as dismissive as the attitudes expressed within the RLJ thread.

Edit: This has nothing to do with "is RLJ correct" (something I myself am not convinced of), this is about what I perceive as a failure on Heresy's part to live up to the standard of debate and discussion that it espouses.

 

I still don't get what your saying and why.Whose dismissing other scenarios? For heavens sake we have some who believe Mance,Robert,Rhaegar,Arthur,Howland and even Jon being the son of an Other If anything this thread has the most diverse opinions when it comes to who Jon's parents are ,so again i'm a bit confused as to what the problem is about Heresy not "living up to the standard of debate" we wouldn't have all these beliefs if debate was being hindering.Everyone should know by now and if they don't its worth repeating again.

 

Heresy is NOT a homogenous group,not in all or most ideas. If one,two or three persons see things a certain way it is not a representation of all participants on the thread hence the reason it is unfair to generalize like this. BC is the founder of the thread yes,but their are many voices and not all of us singing the same note in the chorous.

I feel like people here in heresy can be a bit dismissive of any theory that they see as too obvious because " GRRM doesnt do obvious". But whats obvious is in the eye of the beholder

 

Again how can we AS A WHOLE be dismissive when we have the most diverse belief about who Jon's parents are.The only theory that has that "too obvious statement" attributed to it is Rhaegar as Jon's father and you have to blame GRRM's wife for that.I personally agree with her,it is obvious and i've said that before. Somebody else might not think so but me.

 

So isn't it unfair to lump every and most posters on here because of my belief? I think so.

 

Yeah--the bolded on both statements worries me. Bran's in the hands (or roots) of a man with a history of using violence as he sees fit. For the "good of the realm." 

 

Bran's thought at least once that if men had lost their land as the Children have, they'd fight. And, as was mentioned a little while back, we've seen him enjoy fighting and dominating while in Summer (dominating other wolves). 

 

So, I agree that blood makes the greenseer possible. No reason to doubt that. But the training--Bran's being trained by this greenseer. With his history. A greenseer who was sent to the Wall for doing something to protect the realm and his family. Who later saw his family destroyed.

 

And now Bloodraven has Bran. Who has seen what happened to his father who tried to do something for the good of the realm (though Bran likely doesn't know all the details). Who is  likely to see a lot more details about the destruction of his family and the North via the trees.

 

So--the kind of greenseer one becomes seems like it could be tied to the training. And thus I am once again worried about Bran.

Yep something i brought up before about BR and how much the Weirwoods would benefit from a mind like BR. But we may have to ask ourselves though,how much of BR is still there? I mean what would a symbiotic organism be if it assimilates Oppenhiemer,David Koresh and lets say Sitting bull. I mean is it something knew or a bit of all? :dunno: