Heresy 178

[Jak Scaletongue]

Now what the other Skinchangers vary on is in the kinds of skins to take. ...but that doesn't change one underlying fact.....THEY ALL TAKE BEND THE WILL OF THE CREATURES THEY HAVE.That's how they acquire skins.Simple as that.

So, they acquire skins the same way a horsetamer acquires rideable horses? Mind games, reward/punishment, and forcing the animal to do what it doesn't naturally do. You're basically saying that they're essentially animal tamers that can enter the minds of the animals?

That just makes them humans...we've bent the will of all our domesticated creatures. And given half a chance, our domesticated animals will go feral, which does vibe with what happened to most of V6's animals.

(Most of our domesticated animals anyway - and even a fully domesticated horse still needs to be broken before it can be ridden, and will go feral when left in pasturage for many years and need to be re-broken; ie the pony grandpa bought us grandkids 25 years ago went feral after we grew up and instead of re-breaking her for the next generation of cousins, just bought a new pony - she was pretty old and it wasn't worth breaking her again)

[Black Crow]

I'll reiterate: toward what end? What's the plot value of our narrators being unreliable as to the correct definition of warg?

Lets run with that idea:

A wildling calls a man who has bonded with (but is not subservient to) a wolf a warg, but this usage is semantically incorrect.

What's the plot value in him using the word warg incorrectly here, what's the value in misleading the reader about the definition of warg? 

 

I don't think its misleading the reader so much as concealing the true relationship. A warg appears to an outsider [and that incudes readers] to be a skin-changer who dances with wolves, but instead, as Iron Emmett will ruefully testify, we're gradually being given hints that the wolves [and direwolves] are not passive hosts, but as in the case of the Winterfell wolves are actually initiating the bond.

 

 

And with that, to bed. Good night all and may you dream of wolves - or not.

[MaesterSam]

 

Is what BR is saying here all that different from the way Haggon spoke of skinchanging? He's still talking about an initial taming process for those who've never been skinchanged, and further suggests that a raven that has been skinchanged before can be more easily skinchanged again, a notion that does not entirely align with the idea of crows and ravens always choose their partner, rather than the other way around.

IMHO, just because a skinchanger might initiate contact - and even be initially rebuffed, as Bran is with some ravens - that doesn't mean that every single bond required a breaking of wills. Who's to say, for example, that Borroq didn't already feel an affinity for boars, perhaps open contact, and eventually earn the right to be "allowed in," much the way Bran is doing as he learns with the ravens?

 

Here's why I agree with this:

 

Arya skinchanges the cat in Braavos entirely by accident. She has no idea that such abilities even exist, so she can't be trying to do it. The first time, as the blind girl, she feels as though she can see through the eyes of the cat as she is petting it. So there she was skinchanging- but there couldn't have been any resistance from the cat, as Arya would have noticed if she had had to force her way in. Instead, she doesn't even understand what's going on. Then, most importantly- the cat follows her home. If there had been anything unpleasant about the experience, the cat would have stayed in the streets, not followed Arya back to the HoBaW. So in this case, there pretty clearly was no taming or will-breaking involved.

 

We do know that V6 forced his will on the shadowcat and bear, who didn't want him in their heads. 

 

So I agree with Jak Scaletongue's "sex and rape" argument above: there is more than one way to form a "bond" with an animal. Ideally, you ask nicely and the animal agrees. If you try to force it, it may fight you- and then it depends on how powerful you are, whether or not you can force the bond to occur. Some animals (direwolves, dragons) are probably able to offer more resistance than others. V6 was powerful enough to bend the bear and shadowcat to his will, but not Thistle. Bran can skinchange people (or at least Hodor), b/c he is more powerful than V6. I would bet that, given more time, he could have forced himself into the crows as well. But it's not the nice way to do it, so BR teaches him to ask nicely. Just as a mentor would teach a mentee to take the woman out for dinner and compliment her to get in her pants. That's how you're supposed to do it. But the other option is there, for those who are strong enough and don't care about having a harmonious relationship...

[Matthew.]

My interpretation of Haggon's philosophy? ??? Dude its what he's saying. He is the one telling v6 what animals are best to take and why.But whether you like it or not its what the philosophy Haggon preached.It's what v6 lived by hence his statement about he could take any animal he wants.
 

It's a limited interpretation of a broader conversation, wherein Haggon also talks about both befriending or breaking wolves. This, to me, suggests instead that he's speaking of the multiple paths by which a skinchanger might bond with a wolf, and a bending of wills is just one path.

Similarly, I'd compare Bloodraven's analogy of riding horses to Haggon's analogy of dogs and collars. I don't think either of them are talking about achieving a bond through tyranny of will, they're comparing wildness to domestication and familiarity--the dog accepts its "collar" easily because it already instinctually trusts people, even before magic comes into play, whereas the wild stallion might take some time to establish trust. The ravens, having known the skinchange bond before, more readily accept Bran's outreach. 

 

.But that doesn't change one underlying fact.....Which isnt a philisophy its how they can do it.THEY ALL TAKE, BEND THE WILL OF THE CREATURES THEY HAVE.That's how they acquire skins in the first.

No. This simply cannot be declared as fact. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, it means you lack irrefutable information to say how the various skinchangers "acquired" their skins. Presumably, the circumstances are as individual and varied as the skinchangers themselves.

[Tucu]

Here's why I agree with this:

 

Arya skinchanges the cat in Braavos entirely by accident. She has no idea that such abilities even exist, so she can't be trying to do it. The first time, as the blind girl, she feels as though she can see through the eyes of the cat as she is petting it. So there she was skinchanging- but there couldn't have been any resistance from the cat, as Arya would have noticed if she had had to force her way in. Instead, she doesn't even understand what's going on. Then, most importantly- the cat follows her home. If there had been anything unpleasant about the experience, the cat would have stayed in the streets, not followed Arya back to the HoBaW. So in this case, there pretty clearly was no taming or will-breaking involved.

 

We do know that V6 forced his will on the shadowcat and bear, who didn't want him in their heads. 

 

So I agree with Jak Scaletongue's "sex and rape" argument above: there is more than one way to form a "bond" with an animal. Ideally, you ask nicely and the animal agrees. If you try to force it, it may fight you- and then it depends on how powerful you are, whether or not you can force the bond to occur. Some animals (direwolves, dragons) are probably able to offer more resistance than others. V6 was powerful enough to bend the bear and shadowcat to his will, but not Thistle. Bran can skinchange people (or at least Hodor), b/c he is more powerful than V6. I would bet that, given more time, he could have forced himself into the crows as well. But it's not the nice way to do it, so BR teaches him to ask nicely. Just as a mentor would teach a mentee to take the woman out for dinner and compliment her to get in her pants. That's how you're supposed to do it. But the other option is there, for those who are strong enough and don't care about having a harmonious relationship...

I agree that Arya bonded with that cat slowly. As Cat of the Canals she fed the cats and those same cats recognized Arya when she assumed the Blind Girl identity. I think that the Kindly Man is fully aware of Arya's skills and is slowly helping her to develop them.

[wolfmaid7]

So, they acquire skins the same way a horsetamer acquires rideable horses? Mind games, reward/punishment, and forcing the animal to do what it doesn't naturally do. You're basically saying that they're essentially animal tamers that can enter the minds of the animals?

That just makes them humans...we've bent the will of all our domesticated creatures. And given half a chance, our domesticated animals will go feral, which does vibe with what happened to most of V6's animals.

(Most of our domesticated animals anyway - and even a fully domesticated horse still needs to be broken before it can be ridden, and will go feral when left in pasturage for many years and need to be re-broken; ie the pony grandpa bought us grandkids 25 years ago went feral after we grew up and instead of re-breaking her for the next generation of cousins, just bought a new pony - she was pretty old and it wasn't worth breaking her again)

To paraphrase Haggon in this case its a collar you can't see but a collar nevertheless.

[Melifeather]

The Prologue chapter's narrative starts out in third person with the narrator being an unspecified entity when it names Varamyr a warg. Varamyr is not the one calling himself a warg. Later on in the chapter the narrative alternates and switches to Varamyr's POV. I agree the SSM's are important, but nothing trumps the books. The books are canon and the book calls Varamyr a warg.

 

 

You dont see a difference between take and bond?First off the comparison should be between "take" and "share"


So your minding your beeswax in the forest and I come grab you put a noose around your neck and force you to do what I want and we bonded?

Compare that to you put out your hand, to me (not grab me) and I decide if I want to go with you.Sooo by your reasoning there's no difference in a village girl getting preggers by her loving husband and it being a gift and v6 getting her preggers and calling it a gift.

It don't matter because at the end of the day its a gift. ..right?

 

 

I have to chuckle at this post, Wolfmaid, because your use of the word "gift" was meant to convince me that what the Stark's have is a gift, but apparently what Varamyr has isn't? Gifts can be abused just as easily as appreciated.

 

 

There's nothing there to support reading Bran's reaction as having that and only that explanation. He doesn't recall the shadowy face in that moment, or hear "Jaime!" or anything that suggests Jaime Lannister at all. He gets angry before "falling" is brought up, and his denial is phrased is focused on not "being a wolf", not on whether he "fell."

 

Furthermore, Jojen confronting Bran with more evidence that he is a warg causes Bran to get in turn more angry. The rage is focused on that.

 

Anger isn't also an emotion that Bran feels in his faint remembers of Jaime Lannister in ADWD; fear is.

 

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this  one.

 

 

 

I'm not sure about this one:

 

Skinchanger is a general term, and all wargs are skinchangers. However, a warg is a skinchanger who is bound to a wolf and not some other creature (II: 561, 697. SSM: 1, 2).

 

What GRRM clearly says here is the warg is bound to the wolf, ie; belongs to the wolf rather than the other way around

 

 

By that definition then Bran isn't a warg, because he forces himself into Hodor.

[wolfmaid7]

It's a limited interpretation of a broader conversation, wherein Haggon also talks about both befriending or breaking wolves. This, to me, suggests instead that he's speaking of the multiple paths by which a skinchanger might bond with a wolf, and a bending of wills is just one path.

Similarly, I'd compare Bloodraven's analogy of riding horses to Haggon's analogy of dogs and collars. I don't think either of them are talking about achieving a bond through tyranny of will, they're comparing wildness to domestication and familiarity--the dog accepts its "collar" easily because it already instinctually trusts people, even before magic comes into play, whereas the wild stallion might take some time to establish trust. The ravens, having known the skinchange bond before, more readily accept Bran's outreach. 
 
No. This simply cannot be declared as fact. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, it means you lack irrefutable information to say how the various skinchangers "acquired" their skins. Presumably, the circumstances are as individual and varied as the skinchangers themselves.

When I say we are not talking about the same thing we really aren't.Every example of bonding you are speaking about is initiated by the skinchanger.whether he was nice, rough, manipulative.IT IS STILL HIM.The dominance is from him.

This is the only difference I am talking about and have been talking about.So lets try and hone it in and leave the extras. It has nothing to do with what type of bond is form but how which has to do with ftom where the dominance flows and still is


To put it this way do you see Ghost as Jon's submissive or equal?

[wolfmaid7]

The Prologue chapter's narrative starts out in third person with the narrator being an unspecified entity when it names Varamyr a warg. Varamyr is not the one calling himself a warg. Later on in the chapter the narrative alternates and switches to Varamyr's POV. I agree the SSM's are important, but nothing trumps the books. The books are canon and the book calls Varamyr a warg.
 
 
 
 
I have to chuckle at this post, Wolfmaid, because your use of the word "gift" was meant to convince me that what the Stark's have is a gift, but apparently what Varamyr has isn't? Gifts can be abused just as easily as appreciated.
 
 
 
 
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this  one.
 
 
 
 
By that definition then Bran isn't a warg, because he forces himself into Hodor.

Feather you are having this Warg arguement by yourself because from the get I told you its not about that and if you believe v6 is a Warg or I believe he isn't. Is not the point of the arguement.

The books are canon but it doesn't mean the characters are biased or wrong.Haggon "may"be biased he may be wrong but taken with BR's statement he isn't.

[Melifeather]

No one is discounting the connection the Starks have with the direwolves, and everybody recognizes that Varamyr forces himself into his animals. The point of contention is whether or not both are examples of wargs. A warg is still a skinchanger and whether or not it's a loving connection or a forced one they are still wargs if they bond with wolves. Furthermore, a warg is not limited to wolves as demonstrated by Varamyr, Bran and Arya.

[Melifeather]

Feather you are having this Warg arguement by yourself because from the get I told you its not about that and if you believe v6 is a Warg or I believe he isn't. Is not the point of the arguement.

The books are canon but it doesn't mean the characters are biased or wrong.Haggon "may"be biased he may be wrong but taken with BR's statement he isn't.

 

If this isn't about whether or not Varamyr is a warg, then I have no idea what point you are trying to make, because nobody is denying that Varamyr forces himself on his animals, nor is anybody saying that the Starks don't have a mutual connection with theirs. 

[wolfmaid7]

No one is discounting the connection the Starks have with the direwolves, and everybody recognizes that Varamyr forces himself into his animals. The point of contention is whether or not both are examples of wargs. A warg is still a skinchanger and whether or not it's a loving connection or a forced one they are still wargs if they bond with wolves. Furthermore, a warg is not limited to wolves as demonstrated by Varamyr, Bran and Arya.

Soooo you changed the arguement when I said it wasn't about that? Then you should have said I want ti argue about whether or not v6 is a warg.Then I would have responded no and list my reasons why he isn't or I would have said like I said before we are going to remain divided on that because I remain unconvinced he is.

[Melifeather]

Soooo you changed the arguement when I said it wasn't about that? Then you should have said I want ti argue about whether or not v6 is a warg.Then I would have responded no and list my reasons why he isn't or I would have said like I said before we are going to remain divided on that because I remain unconvinced he is.

 

 

:ack:

 

OK...raise of hands. Who thought Wolfmaid was denying that Varmyr was a warg, and/or that the reason why he isn't a warg is because he forces himself into his animals?

[wolfmaid7]

 
 
:ack:
 
OK...raise of hands. Who thought Wolfmaid was denying that Varmyr was a warg, and/or that the reason why he isn't a warg is because he forces himself into his animals?

Then you misunderstood, what I was arguing. I clearly stated from the get that this is not about who is a Warg .You were the one who introduced that and everyone jumped on that. You cut across a conversation BC and I were having with "I disagree with Black crow and wolfmaid on v6 being a warg" neither of us brought that up.V6 forcing himself on his animals has nothing to do with him being a warg or not.

[MaesterSam]

I agree that Arya bonded with that cat slowly. As Cat of the Canals she fed the cats and those same cats recognized Arya when she assumed the Blind Girl identity. I think that the Kindly Man is fully aware of Arya's skills and is slowly helping her to develop them.

Oh yes. I agree completely. In fact, I wonder if you need to have some special skill - like skinchanging ability- before you are recruited for the faceless men. B/c let's face it- Arya didn't do anything all that impressive in her time with Jaqen. Why would he give her the coin? She was just some little girl. Yes, she handed him the axe, thereby saving his life- but how does that qualify her to become no one and worship Death? No, he must have known or sensed that she had this gift, and that's why he gave her the option of trying out for the faceless men.

[Matthew.]

When I say we are not talking about the same thing we really aren't.Every example of bonding you are speaking about is initiated by the skinchanger.whether he was nice, rough, manipulative.IT IS STILL HIM.The dominance is from him.
 

Again, we can't know this. We've had only the Starks and Varamyr as POVs, and in both cases their very earliest bonds did not seem to be formed as an intentional act. Who's to say that other skinchangers didn't discover their gifts under similar circumstances? First they bond with an animal in a mundane way, then they begin having the dreams. 

I'm also not sure I agree that, in instances where the skinchanger initiates contact, this must be defined as an act of dominance. Your specific assertion was that "THEY ALL BEND THE WILL OF THE CREATURES THEY TAKE," which, to me is something entirely different than being the first party to initiate a bond. If an animal already trusts you - such as in the example of Arya feeding the cats - it may be the case that you skinchange without any "bending of the will" being necessary, as you're already welcome.

While it may very well be the case that the majority of skinchangers go the Varamyr route, that's not something that you can assert as fact - having, at best, insight only into Varamyr, and Varamyr's memories of Haggon - and, more broadly speaking, I'm not sure that, right or wrong, this is a discussion that actually yields plot insight. Even with the animals influencing personalities, I think player/piece comparisons are a huge stretch.

[addicted to snow]

"Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog’s skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. “Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.” Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. “Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won’t like what you’d become.” Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. “Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who’ve tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue.”

 

...Take...

You Take one, that's a marriage 

 

You mean kinda like the way the Stark Children Took the direwolf pups out of their natural environment & forced them to live an unnatural life amongst castles & humans???

[addicted to snow]

"Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog’s skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. “Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.” Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. “Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won’t like what you’d become.” Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. “Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who’ve tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue.”

 

The Highlighted, Bolded, Italicized, and Underlined sentence above suggest that it is not even possible to break the will of a wolf like it is for other animals...

 

Perhaps this is why Varamyr's Cat & bear are mentioned to have had their wills broken, but Varamyr'ss wolves are left off the list of 'will-broken' animals...

[Phillip Frye]

Again, we can't know this. We've had only the Starks and Varamyr as POVs, and in both cases their very earliest bonds did not seem to be formed as an intentional act. Who's to say that other skinchangers didn't discover their gifts under similar circumstances? First they bond with an animal in a mundane way, then they begin having the dreams. 

I'm also not sure I agree that, in instances where the skinchanger initiates contact, this must be defined as an act of dominance. Your specific assertion was that "THEY ALL BEND THE WILL OF THE CREATURES THEY TAKE," which, to me is something entirely different than being the first party to initiate a bond. If an animal already trusts you - such as in the example of Arya feeding the cats - it may be the case that you skinchange without any "bending of the will" being necessary, as you're already welcome.

While it may very well be the case that the majority of skinchangers go the Varamyr route, that's not something that you can assert as fact - having, at best, insight only into Varamyr, and Varamyr's memories of Haggon - and, more broadly speaking, I'm not sure that, right or wrong, this is a discussion that actually yields plot insight. Even with the animals influencing personalities, I think player/piece comparisons are a huge stretch.

 

Thank you for putting this so well.  This is what I was trying to say when I noted that Wolfmaid was overgeneralizing Varamyr's behavior into the other skinchangers and wargs.

[Phillip Frye]

Why haven't any loyal Stark bannermen ridden up to the Wall to proclaim Jon Snow King in the North?

 

1)  Jon Snow commands a puny force (The Night's Watch) that has no defenses facing south.  He's a sitting duck.

 

2)  The Night's Watch is supposed to take no part in the Game of Thrones.  They won't follow anyone.  Heck, the supplicants don't even need to argue with anyone about the legitimacy of Jon Snow if any Stark can just leave the Watch to become king.  Instead, they would just need to find missing First Ranger, who is a legitimized Stark.

 

3)  Jon Snow has already refused one offer to become Jon Stark.  Why bring your army to the edge of nowhere to find out that your "savior" refuses to rides with you?

 

4)  Jon Snow is known to covertly support Stannis Baratheon.  He's not going to betray Stannis by suddenly declaring himself King as well.

 

5)  The North is beset by a world of problems.  Who is going to leave their (relatively) safe stronghold in the face of impending winter to beg Jon Snow to take up arms against the Boltons?

 

Even if some of the northmen are aware that Robb Stark legitimized Jon Snow, they are in no position to act upon that fact (at the end of ADWD).

 

I hope that these facts address your concerns.  You seemed to misplace them during your sessions with Logic, Reason, and Common Sense.