How could the Greyjoys hold Moat Cailin?

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

lol

 

Robb is the only person capable of leading armies? That is perhaps the most idiotic thing I have seen on these boards. Who lead the Manderly men in Hornwood? What happens if Robb Stark falls sick? No Northern army?

 

I agree, it is idiotic, but it is in the book, those men are in the book, Ramsays 600 cavalry are in the book, Umbers ~800 men are in the book, 2-3,000 Mountain clansmen are in the book, Karstark's 450 men are in the book, Manderly's 1,000+ cavalry are in the book, the few hundred to 1,000 men Stannis got from the Mormonts and the area surrounding Deepwood itself are in the book, Ryswell's and Dustin's barely tapped manpower is in the book.

 

Is it dumb that no one led them against the Ironborn? Yes. But those men do exist, they are in the fictional universe Martin created, that he had them sit on their hands for a few novels doesn't mean that armies described in the books don't exist, they do.

[marsyao]

I never understood why Balon singled out the Starks to attack and was so spiteful against only them. By attacking Lannisport or even raiding the West while Tywin and Jaime are off fighting Robb he would be insulting the inlaws of the king who beat him into submission. All Ned did was answer his friend's call for help, did Balon expect the BFF of the King (not to mention one of the men Robert owed his ascension to) to just do nothing? And even if the Lannister forces left in Lannisport could muster a force to repel the Greyjoys (which they wouldnt be able to do following Oxcross), the Greyjoys couldnt be touched at sea - the Tyrell controlled Redwyne fleet won't assist the Lannisters since the Tyrells won't ally themselves with the Lannisters who at this point are badly losing tWotFK - and the Lannister ships could not contend with the Iron Fleet. Heck, Ned saved Theon's life by taking him as a ward - Tywin would have been seething after Vic and Euron burned his fleet and would have loved nothing more than to go all Castamere on Balon's ass

 

Just admit it you love Starks and hate Lannisters, and you would hate anybody dares to against Starks and called them idiots, so what is the point to argue with you?

[marsyao]

The fleet brings supplies. Which is incredibly costly and risky.

 

Royal Navy would not agree with you in the centuries when they ruled the ocean, and besides who told you guys ironborns would put all of their force in the Moat Cailin? Would that be more make sense that put a strong garrison inside the Moat Caillion, the main strenth would be with iron fleet at the port and build a few stronghold in between the beachhead and the Moat Cailin? Basic Millitary Knowlege

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

 

I didn't realize that Robb was an idiot not aware of his own lands capabilities. He needs to go back, he needs the Freys to come with him.

 

Robb needs military support to retake his homeland. This is in the books.

No, not really. We saw in the Riverlands that the majority of the Lords yielded rather than fought. Unless you are one of these fantasists who believe the Northmen are somehow different to other Westerosi men then chances are many would yield rather than fight to the death.

 

To 60,000 Reachmen, 20,000 Westermen, 4,000+ Freys and Vyprens, with their liege lord in chains, their king dead, after sustaining heavy losses in the first part of the war, with no hope of help or allies and with feared competent leadership on the enemy side.

 

How are a few thousand Ironmen with 11th century technology and no siege equipment going to march 600 miles through hostile territory and get White Harbour or the Dreadfort to yield, when both have thousands of men and exist well into the 14th century?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

I agree, it is idiotic, but it is in the book, those men are in the book, Ramsays 600 cavalry are in the book, Umbers ~800 men are in the book, 2-3,000 Mountain clansmen are in the book, Karstark's 450 men are in the book, Manderly's 1,000+ cavalry are in the book, the few hundred to 1,000 men Stannis got from the Mormonts and the area surrounding Deepwood itself are in the book, Ryswell's and Dustin's barely tapped manpower is in the book.

 

Is it dumb that no one led them against the Ironborn? Yes. But those men do exist, they are in the fictional universe Martin created, that he had them sit on their hands for a few novels doesn't mean that armies described in the books don't exist, they do.

 

The Umber men are described as old men and green boys, the Karstark men cant be that much better considering they were complaining about not having enough men to bring in the last harvest. There is no mention of exactly how many men the Dustins and Ryswells have, just that she sent as few as she could get away with. The men Rodrik raises are also green boys.

 

Sure, the North has a numbers bit clearly not strong enough to rid themselves of the Ironborn. At least not in Robbs eyes.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

 

Royal Navy would not agree with you in the centuries when they ruled the ocean, and besides who told you guys ironborns would put all of their force in the Moat Cailin? Would that be more make sense that put a strong garrison inside the Moat Caillion, the main strenth would be with iron fleet at the port and build a few stronghold in between the beachhead and the Moat Cailin? Basic Millitary Knowlege

Maybe English isn't your first language, but you do have to try a little harder than that for someone to actually be able to unpick what you have said and agree or disagree. Though from what I have got from it I don't think I'm missing much.

[marsyao]

 

To 60,000 Reachmen, 20,000 Westermen, 4,000+ Freys and Vyprens, with their liege lord in chains, their king dead, after sustaining heavy losses in the first part of the war, with no hope of help or allies and with feared competent leadership on the enemy side.

 

How are a few thousand Ironmen with 11th century technology and no siege equipment going to march 600 miles through hostile territory and get White Harbour or the Dreadfort to yield, when both have thousands of men and exist well into the 14th century?

 

They could not and do not need to, the intention of the ironborns is NOT to conquer the North in one step, they only need to establish land base on the North land when North is at her weakest point, then from these based both on iron islands and North land, they would lauch raid agains entire realm

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 

 

How are a few thousand Ironmen with 11th century technology and no siege equipment going to march 600 miles through hostile territory and get White Harbour or the Dreadfort to yield, when both have thousands of men and exist well into the 14th century?

 

Wait, what?

 

Can you supply the quote that states they only have a few thousand men? Or that the Ironborn are 300 years behind those two settlements in terms of technology(if that is what you are saying)?

[Barty]

 

I agree, it is idiotic, but it is in the book, those men are in the book, Ramsays 600 cavalry are in the book, Umbers ~800 men are in the book, 2-3,000 Mountain clansmen are in the book, Karstark's 450 men are in the book, Manderly's 1,000+ cavalry are in the book, the few hundred to 1,000 men Stannis got from the Mormonts and the area surrounding Deepwood itself are in the book, Ryswell's and Dustin's barely tapped manpower is in the book.

 

Is it dumb that no one led them against the Ironborn? Yes. But those men do exist, they are in the fictional universe Martin created, that he had them sit on their hands for a few novels doesn't mean that armies described in the books don't exist, they do.

It isnt dumb. White Harbor men and lords will want to defend WH. Their duty is not to defend all of the North. Only WF can gather men from all over the North and lead them against the IB (and WF was gathering men - Rodrik's 600 had inflated to 2000 by the time he reached WF from Torrhens Square and more were coming as he says) - till then the IB will only fight against those lords who they choose to attack. They chose to attack:

1) Glovers: Already a masterly house which sent most of its men south with Robb and has one of the most poorly defensible castle in the North - took them a thousand men and a month.

2) Tallharts: Also a Masterly house. Tallharts called WF for aid because apparently their castellan is a craven (as stated by Theon)

3) Reeds (MC) - Took MC by surprise, and then took grievous casualties as long as they held it. Casualties of a 1000 at least. 

 

In short - they didnt attack any Lord who could gather substantial forces against them (Mormonts, Ryswells, Dustins etc) and WF leadership was decimated due to treachery by Ramsay. The IB "success" is thus because of the fact that the North was embroiled in civil war and couldnt send men to fight the IB. 

[Barty]

 

Royal Navy would not agree with you in the centuries when they ruled the ocean, and besides who told you guys ironborns would put all of their force in the Moat Cailin? Would that be more make sense that put a strong garrison inside the Moat Caillion, the main strenth would be with iron fleet at the port and build a few stronghold in between the beachhead and the Moat Cailin? Basic Millitary Knowlege

In a swamp?? Good luck

[Stork in the North]

 
Just admit it you love Starks and hate Lannisters, and you would hate anybody dares to against Starks and called them idiots, so what is the point to argue with you?

[Barty]

 

Wait, what?

 

Can you supply the quote that states they only have a few thousand men? Or that the Ironborn are 300 years behind those two settlements in terms of technology(if that is what you are saying)?

Probably around 20k - but no cavalry (heavy or otherwise) and no siege equipment. How will an IB army stand up to a charge of heavy cavalry I wonder - they probably dont even have pikes or long spears (effective use of either is a trait of a land army and not seaborn pirates)

 

Edit: The strength of the IB is surprise and speed. Which is why the only areas they have ever held for long periods of time are coastlines or the Riverlands (cause,you know - the rivers). This is also why they can never hold the entire North. Maybe the coastlines or Bear Island could be held but not castles as far inland as WF or even Torrhen's Square. Balon Greyjoy's aim was to capture the entire North, become its King (hence he styled himself as King of the North) - this ambition is a sign of a deluded man. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Probably around 20k - but no cavalry (heavy or otherwise) and no siege equipment. How will an IB army stand up to a charge of heavy cavalry I wonder - they probably dont even have pikes or long spears (effective use of either is a trait of a land army and not seaborn pirates)

 

How was Deepwood Motte and Torrhens Square taken without siege equipment?

[marsyao]

I believe ironsborns could mobilized about 20 thousands fighting men, listen, balon greyjoy's plan is not some kind of mad man's folly, he knew the civil war of the realm is about to break out which could last years, so it is a perfect time to rise again. And it makes perfect sense that he chooses his first target as Starks, main military force of the North has marched south, the entire coast region of the North is now defensless, all he needs to do is to strike, capture and hold some strategically important points such as Moat Cailin, shut the North army in the south, and establish bases along the coast, from which he could launch raids all over the realm.

I do not understand why Balon should help Robb to fight Lannisters, that would be a hard fight and it would be much more difficult to establish and maintain bases in westerland, Unless, of course, it is because "I love Starks soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much? Why don't you help them, HOW DARE YOU ATTACK THEM!!!"

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
How was Deepwood Motte and Torrhens Square taken without siege equipment?

Torrhen's square fell the same way wf fell rodrick took the garrison.

[Stork in the North]

I would say the Lannisters are my favorite characters. The Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei chapters are by far the most interesting to me, and Tywin is an awesome character - even more so after reading WoIaF. I am in no way a Stark fanboy I was just writing a post and viewing others opinions on the matter.

[Stork in the North]

Actually Marsyao after reading your most recent post I see that you are simply a troll.

[marsyao]

Probably around 20k - but no cavalry (heavy or otherwise) and no siege equipment. How will an IB army stand up to a charge of heavy cavalry I wonder - they probably dont even have pikes or long spears (effective use of either is a trait of a land army and not seaborn pirates)

 

Edit: The strength of the IB is surprise and speed. Which is why the only areas they have ever held for long periods of time are coastlines or the Riverlands (cause,you know - the rivers). This is also why they can never hold the entire North. Maybe the coastlines or Bear Island could be held but not castles as far inland as WF or even Torrhen's Square. Balon Greyjoy's aim was to capture the entire North, become its King (hence he styled himself as King of the North) - the ambition is sign of a deluded man. 

 

The main strength of Ironborn is their navy, and the launch raid, Why you keep saying Balon's aim was the capture the entire North? According to the book, it is so obvously his aim is no more than the coast area of the North, establish srongholds there that could be support from the sea, Capturing Winterfell is never part of his plan

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
The main strength of Ironborn is their navy, and the launch raid, Why you keep saying Balon's aim was the capture the entire North? According to the book, it is so obvously his aim is no more than the coast area of the North, establish srongholds there that could be support from the sea, Capturing Winterfell is never part of his plan

If capturing the north isn't his plan why does he style himself as king in the north? Why does he say that wf might defy us but only for a year? Or the rest will yield or fall.

[Barty]

 

How was Deepwood Motte and Torrhens Square taken without siege equipment?

Deepwood is ridiculously easy to take (being a wooden castle surrounded by forests which can hide the enemy), had few defenders who were being led by a woman who had never fought in her life and was probably scare for her children's life, and not to mention it took a month to take. 

Torrhen's square could not have been taken by Dagmer as long as it had its garrison (he says so himself) - Dagmer took an empty castle. I could capture Casterly Rock itself with 20 men if there was no one to defend it.