How could the Greyjoys hold Moat Cailin?

[TimJames]

 

Victarion noted that the beachhead he established was 20 miles from MC. That means they have to haul foodstuffs, fresh water, and supplies 20 miles through hostile territory without horses, oxen, or wagons (can't exactly fit those on longships. 

 

Construct wagons with local trees, and force thralls to pull them. Or take the wagons apart, bring the pieces, and reassemble them on land. Or just bring oxen and pre-built wagons on Cogs stolen from Greenlanders.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
Construct wagons with local trees, and force thralls to pull them. Or take the wagons apart, bring the pieces, and reassemble them on land. Or just bring oxen and pre-built wagons on Cogs stolen from Greenlanders.

As the bog devils loose arrows with 1 hit equaling painful humiliating death.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

Construct wagons with local trees, and force thralls to pull them. Or take the wagons apart, bring the pieces, and reassemble them on land. Or just bring oxen and pre-built wagons on Cogs stolen from Greenlanders.

Thralls eating what? Oxen eating what? And each of them pulling maybe 100 kg of foodstuffs through the swamp? Even on a decent road, 200-250 kg is the maximum.

 

All while Howland Reed demonstrates his loyalty to House Stark. The Crannogmen had already achieved quite a reputation before Victarion left for the kingsmoot, and that was when Jojen and Meera were Theon's hostages.

[Universal Sword Donor]

 

Construct wagons with local trees, and force thralls to pull them. Or take the wagons apart, bring the pieces, and reassemble them on land. Or just bring oxen and pre-built wagons on Cogs stolen from Greenlanders.

 

Introducing thralls means more mouths to feed who don't fight. Introducing oxen or horses means you have to bring a ton of feed as the area around MC isn't suitable fo agriculture. The IB don't have a ton of surplus food to send that way either. 

 

Realistically, even ignoring the crannogmen and raiding parties, the IB would have to seize a decent sized chunk of the Rills or Barrows to feed a garrison of 200-300, let alone the nearly 1000 people Vic leaves behind.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Realistically, even ignoring the crannogmen and raiding parties, the IB would have to seize a decent sized chunk of the Rills or Barrows to feed a garrison of 200-300, let alone the nearly 1000 people Vic leaves behind.

Who were down to sixty-something shortly thereafter.

 

Just a small reminder of the "success" of the entire enterprise.

[Makk]

Who were down to sixty-something shortly thereafter.

 

Just a small reminder of the "success" of the entire enterprise.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority were pulled out for the Kingsmoot, the Cranoggmen didn't kill 1000 ironborn. They didn't hold, the didn't really try to hold. They just went in to pillage and cause chaos. Offer their services to the Lannisters. Then of course Euron turned up and everything changed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority were pulled out for the Kingsmoot, the Cranoggmen didn't kill 1000 ironborn. They didn't hold, the didn't really try to hold. They just went in to pillage and cause chaos. Offer their services to the Lannisters. Then of course Euron turned up and everything changed.

 

Vic brought the Iron Fleet to hold MC. He left 1/10 of it behind. The long ships are supposedly the equal of the Royal Navy's lesser war galleys (80-100 oars). We're looking at 10,000 or close enough to not matter. The towers and area around MC are littered with corpses when Theon rides through it and he's nearly hit with a poisoned arrow too. *Roose* took many precautions to not get killed by a poisoned arrrow.

[sifth]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority were pulled out for the Kingsmoot, the Cranoggmen didn't kill 1000 ironborn. They didn't hold, the didn't really try to hold. They just went in to pillage and cause chaos. Offer their services to the Lannisters. Then of course Euron turned up and everything changed.

 

I recall the either moat filled with a lot of dead bodies when Theon arrives. I assume Vic had to have left  a decent amount of people to hold the line.

[Makk]

 

Vic brought the Iron Fleet to hold MC. He left 1/10 of it behind. The long ships are supposedly the equal of the Royal Navy's lesser war galleys (80-100 oars). We're looking at 10,000 or close enough to not matter. The towers and area around MC are littered with corpses when Theon rides through it and he's nearly hit with a poisoned arrow too. *Roose* took many precautions to not get killed by a poisoned arrrow.

Are those numbers quoted from an Asha chapter? They're not a Theon chapter right? Where did they come from?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Are those numbers quoted from an Asha chapter? They're not a Theon chapter right? Where did they come from?

 

The 1/10 number is derived from a Vic chapter where he lands for the Kingsmoot and said he took 9/10 of the IF to the Iron Islands.

 

Grief and Iron Vengeance were close behind as Iron Victory passed the headland. Behind came Hardhand, Iron Wind, Grey Ghost, Lord Quellon, Lord Vickon, Lord Dagon, and the rest, nine-tenths of the Iron Fleet, sailing on the evening tide in a ragged column that extended back long leagues. 

 

The lesser war galley comparison is from Aurane Waters. 

 

They are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength, and most are better crewed and captained.

 

The lesser war galley numbers is from a Davos POV chapter sailing into blackwater. It's a pretty long passage and I hate posting essays, so I'll cut it short. 

 

Imry has a few 200 oar ships, 2 lines of 100 oar ships (twenty each and these are royal fleet ships), and some 80 oar Myrish galleys (then the troop transports). The greater war galleys would be the 200+ oar ships (ie Robert's Hammer)

Here is a link to the text via aseaerchoficeandfire.com: http://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=dipped+a+hundred+oars&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=acok

[Lord Wraith]

 

Vic brought the Iron Fleet to hold MC. He left 1/10 of it behind. The long ships are supposedly the equal of the Royal Navy's lesser war galleys (80-100 oars). We're looking at 10,000 or close enough to not matter. The towers and area around MC are littered with corpses when Theon rides through it and he's nearly hit with a poisoned arrow too. *Roose* took many precautions to not get killed by a poisoned arrrow.

 

Howland Reed and his men hard at work.  Pretty effective too.

[Makk]

 

The 1/10 number is derived from a Vic chapter where he lands for the Kingsmoot and said he took 9/10 of the IF to the Iron Islands.

 

Grief and Iron Vengeance were close behind as Iron Victory passed the headland. Behind came Hardhand, Iron Wind, Grey Ghost, Lord Quellon, Lord Vickon, Lord Dagon, and the rest, nine-tenths of the Iron Fleet, sailing on the evening tide in a ragged column that extended back long leagues. 

 

The lesser war galley comparison is from Aurane Waters. 

 

They are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength, and most are better crewed and captained.

 

The lesser war galley numbers is from a Davos POV chapter sailing into blackwater. It's a pretty long passage and I hate posting essays, so I'll cut it short. 

 

Imry has a few 200 oar ships, 2 lines of 100 oar ships (twenty each and these are royal fleet ships), and some 80 oar Myrish galleys (then the troop transports). The greater war galleys would be the 200+ oar ships (ie Robert's Hammer)

Here is a link to the text via aseaerchoficeandfire.com: http://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=dipped+a+hundred+oars&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=acok

OK, but that in no way talks about number left at Moat Cailan. It doesn't even imply anything. He left men at Torrehns Square and Deepwood Motte along with other parts of the North. Victarion is the Iron fleet commander but he doesn't control all of it. Some of the ships were loyal to Asha for instance but would have still been considered part of the Iron Fleet. And of course some ships were lost.

[Bobby b's bobby]

OK, but that in no way talks about number left at Moat Cailan. It doesn't even imply anything. He left men at Torrehns Square and Deepwood Motte along with other parts of the North. Victarion is the Iron fleet commander but he doesn't control all of it. Some of the ships were loyal to Asha for instance but would have still been considered part of the Iron Fleet. And of course some ships were lost.

Victarion never took Deepwood or the square that was Theon's 200 and Asha's 1000 not part of the iron fleet.

[Universal Sword Donor]

OK, but that in no way talks about number left at Moat Cailan. It doesn't even imply anything. He left men at Torrehns Square and Deepwood Motte along with other parts of the North. Victarion is the Iron fleet commander but he doesn't control all of it. Some of the ships were loyal to Asha for instance but would have still been considered part of the Iron Fleet. And of course some ships were lost.

 

It absolutely does. He left 10 ships at the beachhead near MC. And yes, as the Commander of the Iron Fleet, he controls (drumroll please) *all* the Iron Fleet, though not all the IB fleet(s). Those that stayed with Asha took their own personal ships, not the Iron Fleet, which belongs to the Greyjoys solely. And the men at TS and DW were either Asha's men or Theon/Dagmer men, not part of the Iron Fleet.

 

So if Vic leaves 10 ships at MC, which dip between 80-100 oars,  that means he's leaving 800-1000 men at MC behind. When Theon approaches the towers, he literally says it's littered with corpses

 

"Closer to the towers, corpses littered the ground on every side. Blood-blooms had sprouted from their gaping wounds, pale flowers with petals plump and moist as a woman's lips."

 

Inside the towers, it's largely the same except there are too many bodies to put in the basement and too few people to do it if they wanted (at least how I read it). 

[Felguy]

Well one person summed it up in another thread quite well, was yesterday I think and it went something like this:

Balon Greyjoy's plan:

1. Raid the Stony Shore
2. ???
3. Proclaim title of King of the Iron Islands/King in the North

[Universal Sword Donor]

Well one person summed it up in another thread quite well, was yesterday I think and it went something like this:

Balon Greyjoy's plan:

1. Raid the Stony Shore
2. ???
3. Proclaim title of King of the Iron Islands/King in the North

 

I think that's a bit harsh. The North is clearly less able to retaliate than the Westerlands, but there is less to gain. Also if he was going to declare independence, it was idiotic to attack the North instead of the West. You get little and still earn the enmity of the crown

[Felguy]

I think that's a bit harsh. The North is clearly less able to retaliate than the Westerlands, but there is less to gain. Also if he was going to declare independence, it was idiotic to attack the North instead of the West. You get little and still earn the enmity of the crown

Yeah, but still, found it a funny comment :P

[Felguy]

I think that's a bit harsh. The North is clearly less able to retaliate than the Westerlands, but there is less to gain. Also if he was going to declare independence, it was idiotic to attack the North instead of the West. You get little and still earn the enmity of the crown

Was this thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/135477-balon-greyjoy-is-an-idiot/

[Makk]

 

It absolutely does. He left 10 ships at the beachhead near MC. And yes, as the Commander of the Iron Fleet, he controls (drumroll please) *all* the Iron Fleet, though not all the IB fleet(s). Those that stayed with Asha took their own personal ships, not the Iron Fleet, which belongs to the Greyjoys solely. And the men at TS and DW were either Asha's men or Theon/Dagmer men, not part of the Iron Fleet.

 

So if Vic leaves 10 ships at MC, which dip between 80-100 oars,  that means he's leaving 800-1000 men at MC behind. When Theon approaches the towers, he literally says it's littered with corpses

 

"Closer to the towers, corpses littered the ground on every side. Blood-blooms had sprouted from their gaping wounds, pale flowers with petals plump and moist as a woman's lips."

 

Inside the towers, it's largely the same except there are too many bodies to put in the basement and too few people to do it if they wanted (at least how I read it). 

Again, where does it say he left 10 ships at MC when he sailed for the Kingsmoot? You're making all these wild assumptions, stating them as fact, despite the assertion that the Crannogmen killed around 950 people inside a fortress (but couldn't wipe out the last 58) is absurd. You say Asha and her ships, and Theon, Dagmer and their ships were not part of the Iron Fleet, but where does it ever say that? Every man is a captain on his own ship, but they are still part of the Iron Fleet.

 

I don't think it was ever revealed but I think a couple of hundred at Moat Cailan by the time Victarion departs for the Kingsmoot to be far more realistic and would still provide more than enough to litter the ground with corpses.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Again, where does it say he left 10 ships at MC when he sailed for the Kingsmoot? You're making all these wild assumptions, stating them as fact, despite the assertion that the Crannogmen killed around 950 people inside a fortress (but couldn't wipe out the last 58) is absurd. You say Asha and her ships, and Theon, Dagmer and their ships were not part of the Iron Fleet, but where does it ever say that? Every man is a captain on his own ship, but they are still part of the Iron Fleet.
 
I don't think it was ever revealed but I think a couple of hundred at Moat Cailan by the time Victarion departs for the Kingsmoot to be far more realistic and would still provide more than enough to litter the ground with corpses.

The iron fleet is only 100 ships not every ship. Asha and Theon are not a part of the iron fleet.