How could the Greyjoys hold Moat Cailin?

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
Have you actually read the books? Robb went South to free his father and sisters and he failed.
 
All of Balons objectives were met. He died, people do so. His death was unconnected with him taking the North.
 
Whine all you want, he had objectives and he completed them. He was successful.


It gives them part of the North.

Balon was a few things but not succesful he died no where near completion of his impossible conquest.

Part of the North consists of WF just the castle not part of the plan. Deepwood Motte part of the plan held but rather unimportant castle. Moat cailin part of the plan but bleeding the iron fleet and too hard to hold for any real amount of time and Torrhen's square not part of the plan, he'd by 200 men and an unimportant waste of 200 men.

[Toos]

 
Have you actually read the books? Robb went South to free his father and sisters and he failed.
 
All of Balons objectives were met. He died, people do so. His death was unconnected with him taking the North.
 
Whine all you want, he had objectives and he completed them. He was successful.


It gives them part of the North.

What part of North they got? Can you please answer this question?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

What part of North they got? Can you please answer this question?

While Balon was alive they had the Stony Shore, Deepwood Motte, Torrhens Square, Moat Cailin and Winterfell. You do realize they are all in the North, right?

 

 

Balon was a few things but not succesful he died no where near completion of his impossible conquest.

 

Of course he was. He had a set of goals and they were completed. Which of his goals did he fail in?

[Bobby b's bobby]

While Balon was alive they had the Stony Shore, Deepwood Motte, Torrhens Square, Moat Cailin and Winterfell. You do realize they are all in the North, right?
 
 
 
Of course he was. He had a set of goals and they were completed. Which of his goals did he fail in?

The north.

[Toos]

While Balon was alive they had the Stony Shore, Deepwood Motte, Torrhens Square, Moat Cailin and Winterfell. You do realize they are all in the North, right?

 

 

 

Of course he was. He had a set of goals and they were completed. Which of his goals did he fail in?

Balon didn't control Stony Shore. He wasraiding villages but he didn't control them. Yes, he captured some castles but he didn't control land, which belongs to this castles. By your logic, Robb controled big parts of Westerlands.

[Bironic]

While Balon was alive they had the Stony Shore, Deepwood Motte, Torrhens Square, Moat Cailin and Winterfell. You do realize they are all in the North, right?

 

 

 

Of course he was. He had a set of goals and they were completed. Which of his goals did he fail in?

Yeah but Winterfell and Torrhens square weren't part of Balon's plan. So his plan was basically raid the stony shore & capture Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte. He doesn't attack Bear Island or Cape Kraken the only parts of the north that the Iron Men could possibly hold for a long time.

 

The North is also Bear Island, Cape Kraken, White Harbor, Barrowton, The Rills, The Wolfswood, The northern Mountains, Oldcastle, Ramsgate, Hornwood, Cerwyn, Widow's watch, Dreadfort, Karhold, Greywater Watch and the Last Hearth. The North is Basically too big to be conquered! Smart People like Tywin, Roose, Olenna Redwyne, LF have realised this, hence they tried to marry into House Stark to get it. Balon's best option to get the north would have been by marrying Theon/Victarion to Sansa/Arya and Asha to Robb/Bran/Rickon.

But I would say his worst idea wasn't that he attacked the north, but that he tried to become independent and never allied with one of the Iron Throne Pretenders.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The north.

He died, Euron changed goals.
 
The objectives he planned for were either successful or didn't have the time to complete due to his premature death.
 

Balon didn't control Stony Shore.
 

Yeah he did. That is what the people of Westeros think.

 

The people on Robbs side think it

 

"No," said Catelyn. "Leave them to guard their own, and win back the north with northmen."

"How will you get the northmen to the north?" her brother Edmure asked. "The ironmen control the sunset sea. The Greyjoys hold Moat Cailin as well. No army has ever taken Moat Cailin from the south.

 

The Hand thinks it

 

"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore.

 

Tyrion thinks it

 

"Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there's more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter."

 

Robbs own mother thinks it

 

It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.

 

The Ironborn controlled parts of the North. That is undeniable, it is pretty clear in the text.

 

 

[Bobby b's bobby]

He died, Euron changed goals.
 
The objectives he planned for were either successful or didn't have the time to complete due to his premature death.
 
Yeah he did. That is what the people of Westeros think.
 
The people on Robbs side think it
 
"No," said Catelyn. "Leave them to guard their own, and win back the north with northmen."
"How will you get the northmen to the north?" her brother Edmure asked. "The ironmen control the sunset sea. The Greyjoys hold Moat Cailin as well. No army has ever taken Moat Cailin from the south.
 
The Hand thinks it
 
"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore.
 
Tyrion thinks it
 
"Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there's more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter."
 
Robbs own mother thinks it
 
It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.
 
The Ironborn controlled parts of the North. That is undeniable, it is pretty clear in the text.
 

 

So in other words he failed.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So in other words he failed.

 

Nope. The Ironborn changed objectives, he was succeeding while he was still alive.

 

If he failed in taking any part of the North then why do so many characters say that Robb had lost the North? Why is Robb marching North to retake his kingdom if he didn't lose it?

[desire]

Always wondered why house Ryder didn't step in. It seems most of there lords/sons made in home from the red wedding or had nothing to do with it apart from being defending the ruby ford. They Greyjoys did hold the moat for a time but they did not hold it all it took was a flayed cripple to give it back to the north regardless of the house 

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
Nope. The Ironborn changed objectives, he was succeeding while he was still alive.
 
If he failed in taking any part of the North then why do so many characters say that Robb had lost the North? Why is Robb marching North to retake his kingdom if he didn't lose it?

If you fail because you die you failed.

I didn't mean he held none of the North just the Moat the coast and 3 other castles.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If you fail because you die you failed.

I didn't mean he held none of the North just the Moat the coast and 3 other castles.

And Robb, Rickard, the Crown and others say he lost the North. Balon succeeded in his objectives.

 

 

I even pointed out his objectives and he was pretty successful.

[Bobby b's bobby]

And Robb, Rickard, the Crown and others say he lost the North. Balon succeeded in his objectives.
 
 
I even pointed out his objectives and he was pretty successful.

He succeeded in his original objectives but not in the overall idea of taking the North as he held i don't know 10% maybe.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He succeeded in his original objectives but not in the overall idea of taking the North as he held i don't know 10% maybe.

 

Then why is Robb going home if he still holds the North?

 

It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

And Robb, Rickard, the Crown and others say he lost the North. Balon succeeded in his objectives.

 

Balon succeeded? So, the entire North did bend their knee to the Iron King, and is now his fiefdom? That's how the situation looks from inside your head? Amazing.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
Then why is Robb going home if he still holds the North?
 
It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.

Because a foreign invader in is his home and the war in the south is beyond lost.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Balon succeeded? So, the entire North did bend their knee to the Iron King, and is now his fiefdom? That's how the situation looks from inside your head? Amazing.

 
Where did I say that?
 
The characters in the book say that Balon had the North. You don't need to conquer every single blade of grass to hold a country. Stannis thought taking Kings Landing would win him Westeros, Robb and his subjects saw him losing his capital as him losing the North.
 
The characters in the book make frequent reference to him losing the North.
 

Because a foreign invader in is his home and the war in the south is beyond lost.

 

So what did Cat mean by this?

 

It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.

 

What did Rickard mean by this?

 

"Or should I call you the King Who Lost the North, Your Grace?"

 

What did Tywin mean by this?

 

"By what right does he call himself king?" "By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. King Balon's longships command the sunset sea

 

The people in the books, including Robb all accept that he has lost the North.

[Frey Pie]

It wasn't folly. It was actually incredibly successful, more so than Balon originally planned. Once Balon died the new leadership changed objectives but while he was alive it was going well.
 
He had better options because others were willing to sell Robb out. I'm not sure Balon could have predicted how much Robb would piss of his own men,

Yes his plan was going perfectly if you take into account the stuff that wasn't in his plan in any way shape or form I.e. Theon taking winterfell, the taking/death of the north's heirs, the civil war in the east of the north, the ineptitude of Ser Rodrik. Had his plan gone to plan he would have raided the west coast, taken one castle, and have had his finest men at Moat Cailin being picked off my arrows, disease and hunger

And again cherry picking at its finest. To say that you must also acknowledge that Balon had no idea that Stannis or Renly wouldn't sit on the throne. That Robb wouldn't have beaten Tywin in the field, that Robb wouldn't have bent the knew etc etc. Balon knew sweet fuck all and just went with his emotions and attacked the north. Bending his knee was not part of his plan either. The smartest part of his plan was taking Moat Cailin and even that was a death trap

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes his plan was going perfectly

 

Yup.

[Frey Pie]

 
Where did I say that?
 
The characters in the book say that Balon had the North. You don't need to conquer every single blade of grass to hold a country. Stannis thought taking Kings Landing would win him Westeros, Robb and his subjects saw him losing his capital as him losing the North.
 
The characters in the book make frequent reference to him losing the North.
 
 
So what did Cat mean by this?
 
It was a question Catelyn dared not dwell on, though Robb dwelt on little else. She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north.
 
What did Rickard mean by this?
 
"Or should I call you the King Who Lost the North, Your Grace?"
 
What did Tywin mean by this?
 
"By what right does he call himself king?" "By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. King Balon's longships command the sunset sea
 
The people in the books, including Robb all accept that he has lost the North.

Robb doesn't have control of the North but it is still very much in northern hands. Balon tool a small portion of it so if he styled himself King of a small portion of the north then nobody would bat am eyelid. Winterfell was the major boon to Balon, something completely unplanned. Dreadfort, last hearth, White Harbor, Bear Island etc etc etc were all in northern hands. Balon had control of some, Robb had control of some, and Ramsay was causing mayhem elsewhere. This is why Robb didn't control the North, not because Balon did. To say so ludicrous