Did lyanna confess her eloping on her deathbed?

[redtree]

"The World...":

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End. Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince’s gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due … but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

Thanks. So that's the proof then, he managed to slight 3 great houses in 1 stroke. 

If Rhaegar truly expect that Brandon would act reasonable when Lyanna "unwillingly taken away" the he's a big fool. His reaction alone for QoLaB title was a big clue for Brandon's hot headed character

[purple-eyes]

Am I the only one that thinks that she would have want to leave that least one she heard about Brandon's imprisonment or after the death of her father and brother, still months before any baby was made? Because if she didn't, there is a chance that she died without knowing the fate of those two...

She asked Ned to bury her with father and brandon in winterfell. unless Ned was lying, she should know their deaths before she died. 

But it is unclear that it is Ned who told her when they met, or rhaegar told her before. 

It is possible that rhaegar blocked the information from her to avoid her stress. 

Lyanna may be kept in darkness for everything for a long time and only knew things in the end from Ned. 

 

[sweetsunray]

Am I the only one that thinks that she would have want to leave that least one she heard about Brandon's imprisonment or after the death of her father and brother, still months before any baby was made? Because if she didn't, there is a chance that she died without knowing the fate of those two...

Even if she did not mind being taken by Rhaegar or actively eloped, Lyanna is not in control of the information coming in, and Rhaegar and the KG would have interest in keeping information from Lyanna. The damage is already done when they learn of it, and Rhaegar would consider it a risk to her own life (after all by then Aerys intends to have every Stark's head). The KG either would follow Rhaegar's orders to be silent about it, or regard her as a possible hostage. By the time Hightower finds Rhaegar, Lyanna is with child already. They might still want to keep details and knowledge from her, but it would be difficult to keep from her why Rhaegar has to ride off all of a sudden, when he clearly had no intention of doing so before her child was born.  However, once she is with child, Lyanna is a mother to be. She would choose her unborn child over her living brothers, and thus stand with her child's father. And Rhaegar most likely left promising not to kill her brother, but take out Robert, end the rebellion and then make his peace with the North or something along that line. 

So, yes, it is imo logical to assume that Lyanna knew little of what happened.

[purple-eyes]

Just came here to point out that this is BS. Brandon's "come out and die" is perfectly compatible with him believing Lyanna willingly ran away. Earlier, he damn nearly got into fistfight with Rhaegar over that QOLAB wreath - I do not think he believed the winter roses were actually raping his sister, yet he was agitated nevertheless. Your equating "Brandon's pissed off" with "abduction and/or rape" has no merit.

I do not think he will be so angry if he knew it is a romantic eloping. 

Of course, he may still blame rhaegar seduce his sister and got angry. 

But if the news was that lyanna left willingly, he would not be only one who received this. Holster tully would know, Rickard would know, later many people would know too. 

But from all accounts, rhaegar kidnapped lyanna by force. 

So I think brandon thought she was kidnapped.  

[sweetsunray]

She asked Ned to bury her with father and brandon in winterfell. unless Ned was lying, she should know their deaths before she died. 

But it is unclear that it is Ned who told her when they met, or rhaegar told her before. 

It is possible that rhaegar blocked the information from her to avoid her stress. 

Lyanna may be kept in darkness for everything for a long time and only knew things in the end from Ned. 

 

We don't have her literal words of the promises she asked, except that she asked Ned to take her home and bury her at Winterfell. Although I agree that by then chances are slim she did not know her father and Brandon were dead. Doesn't necessarily mean she even knows how or even when they died. Even Bran doesn't know how his grandfather died, and Luwin does not correct Bran when Bran informs Osha that Rickard was "beheaded". Ned is obviously very tight lipped to his children about this, twisting information and Luwin is a participant in it. I see no reason why Ned would have told her the details, when he was no witness to it himself. He doesn't tell the truth to Barra's mother either, or to Robert that his son is not really his son at all. 

[purple-eyes]

We don't have her literal words of the promises she asked, except that she asked Ned to take her home and bury her at Winterfell. Although I agree that by then chances are slim she did not know her father and Brandon were dead. Doesn't necessarily mean she even knows how or even when they died. Even Bran doesn't know how his grandfather died, and Luwin does not correct Bran when Bran informs Osha that Rickard was "beheaded". Ned is obviously very tight lipped to his children about this, twisting information and Luwin is a participant in it. I see no reason why Ned would have told her the details, when he was no witness to it himself. He doesn't tell the truth to Barra's mother either, or to Robert that his son is not really his son at all. 

but lyanna obviously knew her father and brandon died and also rhaegar and children of rhaegar were killed. 

That is why she was scared in her deathbed and finally relaxed when Ned promised her. 

I mean, somebody must tell her these news, either KG or Ned. At least before she died. 

She probably did not know anything for a very long time though. 

 

[purple-eyes]

Even if she did not mind being taken by Rhaegar or actively eloped, Lyanna is not in control of the information coming in, and Rhaegar and the KG would have interest in keeping information from Lyanna. The damage is already done when they learn of it, and Rhaegar would consider it a risk to her own life (after all by then Aerys intends to have every Stark's head). The KG either would follow Rhaegar's orders to be silent about it, or regard her as a possible hostage. By the time Hightower finds Rhaegar, Lyanna is with child already. They might still want to keep details and knowledge from her, but it would be difficult to keep from her why Rhaegar has to ride off all of a sudden, when he clearly had no intention of doing so before her child was born.  However, once she is with child, Lyanna is a mother to be. She would choose her unborn child over her living brothers, and thus stand with her child's father. And Rhaegar most likely left promising not to kill her brother, but take out Robert, end the rebellion and then make his peace with the North or something along that line. 

So, yes, it is imo logical to assume that Lyanna knew little of what happened.

I agree.

Rhaegar would not tell her the truth to hurt her or stress her, especially during pregnancy. 

He left to KL but he can just explain to her that there was some urgent political stuff for him to do in KL. He did not need to tell her there was a rebellion and I needed to fight. 

Lyanna may feel suspicious something bad happen but if rhaegar and KG did not tell these to her, there was no way for her to figure it out by herself. 

 

[NorthGirl]

It always seemed obvious to me that she told him she wasn't taken against her will.

As for the "cover story", I don't think they made sure that it was seen as her being forcibly taken at all, I think they were dumb enough to think it could be explained or that her disappearance wouldn't be linked to him (doesn't someone at an inn alert Brandon?). I don't remember any hint in the books that they tried to make it look like a kidnapping. it was assumed to be so because nobody wanted to believe she would run and they were seen with Rhaegar and his companions (possibly armed) and her alone, fleeing. Regardless of how they intended it, of course it would look like kidnapping.

ETA: who agrees she was abducted at sword point in universe?  Because other than Robert himself, it seems everyone saw it as some kind of impetuous, destructive love story (implying their was an affair and she went willingly, unless they just don't give a fuck about the girl's consent which is entirely possible).

[Lord Fauntleroy]

You guys are being pretty harsh on Rhaegar here. He was the Crown Prince. He can do whatever he pleases and the Lords should kneel and say "Yes Your Grace". The rebellion uses Rhaegars actions as an excuse to go against the King. Only Robert and Brandon really gave a shit. Every other Lord just saw the opportunity to be "righteous" in their back-stabbery.

The only mistake Rhaegar made was not being more open about wanting to take a second wife. I think things would have gone better for him if he had played it more formally and not done the pretend-abduction. 

[sweetsunray]

It always seemed obvious to me that she told him she wasn't taken against her will.

1 - it's not confirmed in any way she was taken against her initial will. There are numerous scenarios possible where she was actually abducted, but did not consider herself a captive and remained willingly. Though women do not necessarily get pregnant from the first time, it was months before she was pregnant, and it suggests there was a courtship or wooing phase.

2 - just how Lyanna may have talked about Rhaegar when Ned found her might be enough to infer for him that Lyanna was in love with the man, without her saying "Oh, he didn't abduct me. I ran away with him."

[Raining_Steel]

Besides Jaime, Ned doesn't really seem like the grudge holding type.  He even finds it disturbing that Robert still hates Rhaegar so fiercely, and Robert truly believes Lyanna was kidnapped And raped by the prince. So I'm not sure how much Ned not thinking ill of Rhaegar has to tell.
 

He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion - Eddard VIII

[purple-eyes]

1 - it's not confirmed in any way she was taken against her initial will. There are numerous scenarios possible where she was actually abducted, but did not consider herself a captive and remained willingly. Though women do not necessarily get pregnant from the first time, it was months before she was pregnant, and it suggests there was a courtship or wooing phase.

2 - just how Lyanna may have talked about Rhaegar when Ned found her might be enough to infer for him that Lyanna was in love with the man, without her saying "Oh, he didn't abduct me. I ran away with him."

she was taken against her will, then rhaegar wooed her for some time, then she loved him and slept with him? 

This sounds like a Stockholm syndrome case. 

I think love started before the abduction. Lyanna already loved rhaegar and rhaegar already loved her. Rhaegar kidnapped her because he knew she would not refuse this and would go with him. 

Like a woman already desired a man but felt hesitant because she was married then this man just forced her a little bit to make this happen. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Besides Jaime, Ned doesn't really seem like the grudge holding type.  He even finds it disturbing that Robert still hates Rhaegar so fiercely, and Robert truly believes Lyanna was kidnapped And raped by the prince. So I'm not sure how much Ned not thinking ill of Rhaegar has to tell.
 

It's huge that Ned doesn't think badly of Rhaegar, especially in the face of his bestie Robert's continued loathing of Rhaegar many years later. That probably indicates that Ned has more first-hand knowledge of the events in question than Robert does.

Also if Ned was aware that his sister had indeed been unwillingly taken and raped repeatedly, I don't imagine it would be possible to be so neutral about Rhaegar, even if he's not really the grudge-holding type. Honestly, that kind of thing is not just gotten over.

[Raining_Steel]

Can someone fall in love that quick? The Tourney was 7-10 days long and the 2 would not be able to openly converse, they would have had to meet in secret and even then their lack of appearance by others would be noticed eventually- so how much time could they really spend together?  Personally I don't believe in love at first sight, and that has a major effect on how I interpret this tale. I believe in lust at first sight, but would lust be enough to make you run away, abandoning your family and duty without caring about the consequences? 
But, people do stupid things, and I can't define love- so I may be seeing it wrong. 

[Raining_Steel]

It's huge that Ned doesn't think badly of Rhaegar, especially in the face of his bestie Robert's continued loathing of Rhaegar many years later. That probably indicates that Ned has more first-hand knowledge of the events in question than Robert does.

Also if Ned was aware that his sister had indeed been unwillingly taken and raped repeatedly, I don't imagine it would be possible to be so neutral about Rhaegar, even if he's not really the grudge-holding type. Honestly, that kind of thing is not just gotten over.

So then why does he find it disturbing that Robert still hates Rhaegar? 

[OuttaOldtown]

Hate the update, just lost my whole post. Gone...

[sweetsunray]

she was taken against her will, then rhaegar wooed her for some time, then she loved him and slept with him? 

This sounds like a Stockholm syndrome case. 

I think love started before the abduction. Lyanna already loved rhaegar and rhaegar already loved her. Rhaegar kidnapped her because he knew she would not refuse this and would go with him. 

Like a woman already desired a man but felt hesitant because she was married then this man just forced her a little bit to make this happen. 

Oh, sure, I agree she probably had the hots for him... Still doesn't mean she eloped or was taken without putting up a fight or chase. Think of an older Arya. She may be attracted to a guy, imagine herself in love even. Then imagine that guy taking her without warning. She'll kick and scream and be very upset with him for a while. Then he apologizes, gets on his knees, explains he saw no other way because she's betrothed, and only wants her to promise him to give him time, and if she still wants to return home after that time he'll bring her home himself. She'd still be angry and act miffed, but she won't flee either, and just be too damn curious to find out if he is serious. And before long she has all forgotten about being upset and angry, because she feels that she can go home if she wants to. Is that a bit of a twisted romantic scenario. Sure, it is. But is it Stockholm? No. And it's something I can see George considering to be romantic, since he thought Dany-Drogo was romantic. (Hmmm, somehow I'm getting scenes in my head of Atame, a Spanish movie of the early 90s with Antonio Banderas before he went to Hollywood).  

[purple-eyes]

Oh, sure, I agree she probably had the hots for him... Still doesn't mean she eloped or was taken without putting up a fight or chase. Think of an older Arya. She may be attracted to a guy, imagine herself in love even. Then imagine that guy taking her without warning. She'll kick and scream and be very upset with him for a while. Then he apologizes, gets on his knees, explains he saw no other way because she's betrothed, and only wants her to promise him to give him time, and if she still wants to return home after that time he'll bring her home himself. She'd still be angry and act miffed, but she won't flee either, and just be too damn curious to find out if he is serious. And before long she has all forgotten about being upset and angry, because she feels that she can go home if she wants to. Is that a bit of a twisted romantic scenario. Sure, it is. But is it Stockholm? No. And it's something I can see George considering to be romantic, since he thought Dany-Drogo was romantic. (Hmmm, somehow I'm getting scenes in my head of Atame, a Spanish movie of the early 90s with Antonio Banderas before he went to Hollywood).  

if this is the case and she was really kidnapped against her will and later somehow rhaegar won her love, then she would badly hate rhaegar for the deaths of her father and brother. 

She did not hate rhaegar at her death (seems), so this means she likely leave willingly, she does not think it is rhaegar's fault. (Her own fault) 

 

[sweetsunray]

if this is the case and she was really kidnapped against her will and later somehow rhaegar won her love, then she would badly hate rhaegar for the deaths of her father and brother. 

She did not hate rhaegar at her death (seems), so this means she likely leave willingly, she does not think it is rhaegar's fault. (Her own fault) 

 

Well, I disagree with that assertion, especially if she didn't know the details, the when and how, and way way too late.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

What ever happened, she told everything to Ned. Ned does not ever show any anger at Lyanna or Rhaegar in any of the times that he thinks of them.

So either he has forgiven them (and the King's Guard) or there is more to the story and Lyanna and Rhaegar were not entirely at fault.