Did lyanna confess her eloping on her deathbed?

[kissdbyfire]

like kissdbyfire said above, the tourney must happen in the late of the year. 

There is no clear date for us since GRRM made this as vague as possible for RR timeline. 

But if you are familiar with what happened in 281, plus these quotes in the world book about the season and timing, then there is no doubt that tourney happened in the second half of the year. Keep in mind, whent declared his plan for Tourney after Jaime received the news to join KG in 281. Elia's bed rest for several months, Elia being attacked by brotherhood, Arthur destroyed the brotherhood, Jaime visited Cersei, Cersei spent one month to arrange Jaime into KG, then Whent declared the plan of tourney. These things plus the travelling time of people towards HH, half year at least. 

 

 

Actually, we can narrow it down further. The World Book quote states that the False Spring lasted less than two months, with winter returning as the year drew to a close, and that the Tourney took place during the FS. Therefore, the Tourney must take place within the last few months of the year. 

[purple-eyes]

 

Actually, we can narrow it down further. The World Book quote states that the False Spring lasted less than two months, with winter returning as the year drew to a close, and that the Tourney took place during the FS. Therefore, the Tourney must take place within the last few months of the year. 

Yes, exactly. 

Although some people still argue that winter can return slowly and gradually in several months......

So I had to be conservative for their sake. 

But honestly, it looks quite clear that false spring happened in Nov and Dec. 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Yes, exactly. 

Although some people still argue that winter can return slowly and gradually in several months......

So I had to be conservative for their sake. 

But honestly, it looks quite clear that false spring happened in Nov and Dec. 

 

 

That's my take on it as well, at least until we're given more info. The way it's phrased in the World Book suggests to me that winter returned in a sudden and powerful manner. 

 

[Lady Sharya]

Yes, exactly. 

Although some people still argue that winter can return slowly and gradually in several months......

So I had to be conservative for their sake. 

But honestly, it looks quite clear that false spring happened in Nov and Dec. 

 

 

Yes all those doubters who go by what the the books have written in them...like Winter has been coming on for over a year now in Westeros....

[purple-eyes]

Yes all those doubters who go by what the the books have written in them...like Winter has been coming on for over a year now in Westeros....

I do suggest people read the world book carefully. 

The whole year is cold winter for 281, with only less than two months warm and soft which is called "false spring".

So if winter "returned to westeros as the year draw to a close", then it is quite obvious to me that the "false spring" happened right before the "winter returned to westeros" which is at the "close time of the year". It is not a natural transition with summer and autumn, it is a short and abrupt change in winter, which happened in the real world a lot. 

In the end of the year or early of year, in cold winter, suddenly you see warm sunny days for a while, people said: spring is here! then after a couple of weeks, weather became bad again. This is called "false spring". 

 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Yes all those doubters who go by what the the books have written in them...like Winter has been coming on for over a year now in Westeros....

 

I'm basing my opinion on what is in the books as well. 

Winter had lasted for almost two years by the time the False Spring rolled in. Then the snow started to melt and the woods were turning green again, the days growing longer. . People believed winter was almost over, and then it returned with a vengeance. 

[warginfortheweekend]

 

Thank you, people like throwing this "love" around tp talk about the RR and HH events to simplify things but let's be real that wasn't love. It can't have been. His wife was likely in the early to mid stages of her pregnancy with Aegon (he was born before Rhaegar took Lyanna and the World book said that was only 2-3 months later right?) so how did they have time to "fall in love"? And if they did, I will be forced to hate Lyanna (I already despise Rhaegar) because that would mean she sees this poor frail woman about and then goes to flirt with her husband. I would hope she was more compassionate than that. The onus is on Rhaegar for the cheating but I would find it hard to not see her as a huge hypocrite if she participated in the humiliation of another woman when she dreaded the same from Robert. And that's what sneaking around would lead to.

What if Rhaegar knew more about the Ice and Fire prophesy, and convinced Lyanna that they were on a mission more important than themselves but "for the realm itself" ?

She goes to willing participant much faster and doesn't require "falling in love" quickly, just a determination to follow her discovered future. She was the type that was very willful and prideful, sounds to me like she could get sucked into the right ASOIAF cult by preying on these personal defects.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

What if Rhaegar knew more about the Ice and Fire prophesy, and convinced Lyanna that they were on a mission more important than themselves but "for the realm itself" ?

She goes to willing participant much faster and doesn't require "falling in love" quickly, just a determination to follow her discovered future. She was the type that was very willful and prideful, sounds to me like she could get sucked into the right ASOIAF cult by preying on these personal defects.

That would make them the Melisandre & Selyse of their generation.

I do not think so. People tend to believe things they like, so yea, maybe Lyanna might have willingly bought a scenario with herself in the place of the sword-fighting hero, but if she was anything like Arya, as we have been told, she would be likely to dismiss as nonsense a narrative that gives her the role of the brood mare. Love/infatuation is, to me, a much more convincing option, and one that gives me a more sympathetic view of the individuals involved.

Furthermore, the 'prophesy explanation' does not require Lyanna's consent; in fact, it renders it irrelevent. I mean, if one is ready to bloody a realm and compromise the peace and political stability because it's absolutely necessary "for their own good", why would he shy away from taking a girl, consent be damned, if that would mean "the survival of humanity"?

[WSmith84]

That would make them the Melisandre & Selyse of their generation.

I do not think so. People tend to believe things they like, so yea, maybe Lyanna might have willingly bought a scenario with herself in the place of the sword-fighting hero, but if she was anything like Arya, as we have been told, she would be likely to dismiss as nonsense a narrative that gives her the role of the brood mare. Love/infatuation is, to me, a much more convincing option, and one that gives me a more sympathetic view of the individuals involved.

Furthermore, the 'prophesy explanation' does not require Lyanna's consent; in fact, it renders it irrelevent. I mean, if one is ready to bloody a realm and compromise the peace and political stability because it's absolutely necessary "for their own good", why would he shy away from taking a girl, consent be damned, if that would mean "the survival of humanity"?

I'm inclined to think prophecy as the reason to be less likely as well. Perhaps later, Rhaegar came to believe that their child would be the Song of Ice and Fire, but I doubt it was his reason for disappearing with her, or at least not his primary one.

[purple-eyes]

I'm inclined to think prophecy as the reason to be less likely as well. Perhaps later, Rhaegar came to believe that their child would be the Song of Ice and Fire, but I doubt it was his reason, or at least not his primary one.

I also feel prophecy is not the primary reason, otherwise rhaegar could have got any other women, like ashara dayne, or a girl from house karstark (pure ice too) to be mother of his child with way less trouble. Why lyanna? 

rhaegar is a playing Paris here, driven by mad love and forsaked his duty. He likely just used prophecy to justify himself. Barri said clearly: rhaegar loved lyanna, thousands of people died for it. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I'm inclined to think prophecy as the reason to be less likely as well. Perhaps later, Rhaegar came to believe that their child would be the Song of Ice and Fire, but I doubt it was his reason, or at least not his primary one.

My take wrt prophecy is that, any prophecy that may be fulfilled by R+L, was achieved by accident and not by design, when Rhaegar has his mind set anywhere else but in that: the narrative rule of inverse proportionality when chassing/running away of prophecies.

Also we should take into account that the series of events that were sprung out of Lyanna's abduction/elopement whatever it was, led to the birth of Dany -definitely one of the "heads"- and even Bran, as he would not be born if Ned did not have to mary Cat, and so on. I do not think all those events, that are required for the implementation of various prophecies, were done by anyone's design.

[purple-eyes]

My take wrt prophecy is that, any prophecy that may be fulfilled by R+L, was achieved by accident and not by design, when Rhaegar has his mind set anywhere else but in that: the narrative rule of inverse proportionality when chassing/running away of prophecies.

Also we should take into account that the series of events that were sprung out of Lyanna's abduction/elopement whatever it was, led to the birth of Dany -definitely one of the "heads"- and even Bran, as he would not be born if Ned did not have to mary Cat, and so on. I do not think all those events, that are required for the implementation of various prophecies, were done by anyone's design.

Yeah, my take is this:

Rhaegar loved lyanna, eloped with her and fathered a child, which he gladly thought to be his third head. 

But he was wrong. Aegon and Rhaenys are not real heads. Tyrion and Dany are. 

Dany was born due to his action. Tyrion would not be in his position if Rhaegar did not fail. 

So he accidentally made a new team (three real heads of dragon). 

 

 

[WSmith84]

My take wrt prophecy is that, any prophecy that may be fulfilled by R+L, was achieved by accident and not by design, when Rhaegar has his mind set anywhere else but in that: the narrative rule of inverse proportionality when chassing/running away of prophecies.

Also we should take into account that the series of events that were sprung out of Lyanna's abduction/elopement whatever it was, led to the birth of Dany -definitely one of the "heads"- and even Bran, as he would not be born if Ned did not have to mary Cat, and so on. I do not think all those events, that are required for the implementation of various prophecies, were done by anyone's design.

I agree. It's why I won't give credit to Rhaegar if it turns out Jon Snow saves the world, because Rhaegar could never have planned for what would happen to make it so. That and, unless George writes it in such a way that only Jon Snow and absolutely no one else could save the world, there's no way of knowing that the world couldn't have been saved without him.