Did lyanna confess her eloping on her deathbed?

[purple-eyes]

Well, I disagree with that assertion, especially if she didn't know the details, the when and how, and way way too late.

no matter how late and brief she heard this story, brandon still died because she was kidnapped (he thought). By extension Rickard and riders. 

You think she would say brandon deserved to be killed because he was an idiot by threatening rhaegar's life like us? 

She would surely blame rhaegar, if he really kidnapped her and taken her from her family without any further contact. 

 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

So then why does he find it disturbing that Robert still hates Rhaegar? 

Because he knows that the reason for Robert's hate is unfounded?

[sweetsunray]

no matter how late and brief she heard this story, brandon still died because she was kidnapped (he thought). By extension Rickard and riders. 

You think she would say brandon deserved to be killed because he was an idiot by threatening rhaegar's life like us? 

She would surely blame rhaegar, if he really kidnapped her and taken her from her family without any further contact. 

 

Why should she blame Rhaegar, if it was Aerys who murdered Brandon? She's the one in love with Rhaegar, pregnant with his child, and Rhaegar was nowhere near Brandon or Rickard, nor would have executed them. Some readers blame Rhaegar or Lyanna for the war and the murder of Rickard and Brandon, but it was Aerys who murdered them. And there's no reason to assume that Lyanna thinks the same way as some readers do.

[purple-eyes]

Why should she blame Rhaegar, if it was Aerys who murdered Brandon? She's the one in love with Rhaegar, pregnant with his child, and Rhaegar was nowhere near Brandon or Rickard, nor would have executed them. Some readers blame Rhaegar or Lyanna for the war and the murder of Rickard and Brandon, but it was Aerys who murdered them. And there's no reason to assume that Lyanna thinks the same way as some readers do.

it is hard to believe lyanna would think rhaegar and she were innocent for the whole thing, especially if rhaegar kidnapped her against her will and cause brandon storm to KL. 

you mean she only blamed aerys for everything? And thought rhaegar was right to kidnap her? 

[NorthGirl]

You guys are being pretty harsh on Rhaegar here. He was the Crown Prince. He can do whatever he pleases and the Lords should kneel and say "Yes Your Grace". The rebellion uses Rhaegars actions as an excuse to go against the King. Only Robert and Brandon really gave a shit. Every other Lord just saw the opportunity to be "righteous" in their back-stabbery.

The only mistake Rhaegar made was not being more open about wanting to take a second wife. I think things would have gone better for him if he had played it more formally and not done the pretend-abduction. 

Um...excuse my lack of eloquence but, DAFUQ? That is not how feudalism works, especially for a dynasty dumb enough to not develop a royal army after their dragons died. Their power depended completely on everyone agreeing that they are worthy of ruling over them. I'm sorry but the very events that happened following his actions completely undermine your argument.

Can someone fall in love that quick? The Tourney was 7-10 days long and the 2 would not be able to openly converse, they would have had to meet in secret and even then their lack of appearance by others would be noticed eventually- so how much time could they really spend together?  Personally I don't believe in love at first sight, and that has a major effect on how I interpret this tale. I believe in lust at first sight, but would lust be enough to make you run away, abandoning your family and duty without caring about the consequences? 
But, people do stupid things, and I can't define love- so I may be seeing it wrong. 

Thank you, people like throwing this "love" around tp talk about the RR and HH events to simplify things but let's be real that wasn't love. It can't have been. His wife was likely in the early to mid stages of her pregnancy with Aegon (he was born before Rhaegar took Lyanna and the World book said that was only 2-3 months later right?) so how did they have time to "fall in love"? And if they did, I will be forced to hate Lyanna (I already despise Rhaegar) because that would mean she sees this poor frail woman about and then goes to flirt with her husband. I would hope she was more compassionate than that. The onus is on Rhaegar for the cheating but I would find it hard to not see her as a huge hypocrite if she participated in the humiliation of another woman when she dreaded the same from Robert. And that's what sneaking around would lead to.

Oh, sure, I agree she probably had the hots for him... Still doesn't mean she eloped or was taken without putting up a fight or chase. Think of an older Arya. She may be attracted to a guy, imagine herself in love even. Then imagine that guy taking her without warning. She'll kick and scream and be very upset with him for a while. Then he apologizes, gets on his knees, explains he saw no other way because she's betrothed, and only wants her to promise him to give him time, and if she still wants to return home after that time he'll bring her home himself. She'd still be angry and act miffed, but she won't flee either, and just be too damn curious to find out if he is serious. And before long she has all forgotten about being upset and angry, because she feels that she can go home if she wants to. Is that a bit of a twisted romantic scenario. Sure, it is. But is it Stockholm? No. And it's something I can see George considering to be romantic, since he thought Dany-Drogo was romantic. (Hmmm, somehow I'm getting scenes in my head of Atame, a Spanish movie of the early 90s with Antonio Banderas before he went to Hollywood).  

I'm sorry, I love Arya which would make it super hard for me to not like Lyanna and be "on her side" but this scenario sounds like a desperate attempt at trying to exonerate her while not making the last year and a half a torture by being raped and forced to have her rapist's baby away from everyone she loves, as she hears news of them dying. It's not impossible but I find it unlikely and a little too neat.

no matter how late and brief she heard this story, brandon still died because she was kidnapped (he thought). By extension Rickard and riders. 

You think she would say brandon deserved to be killed because he was an idiot by threatening rhaegar's life like us? 

She would surely blame rhaegar, if he really kidnapped her and taken her from her family without any further contact. 

I agree with this conjecture based on the tiny stuff George has given us on the character.

[sweetsunray]

it is hard to believe lyanna would think rhaegar and she were innocent for the whole thing, especially if rhaegar kidnapped her against her will and cause brandon storm to KL. 

you mean she only blamed aerys for everything? And thought rhaegar was right to kidnap her? 

I don't do right and wrong in puzzling out literary mysteries. Right and wrong and who's to blame for what are the most boring literary analysis imo. Especially in a series that doesn't deal in black-white morality and characters for the most part, except a few very evil men.

I said what I said, and there's no reason to twist it into meaning it to be some judgement call. It's not because you or someone else think a or b is the one to blame, that the characters involved woudl think so. And there's a gigantic difference between "not blaming" someone and thinking "you're right". It's not nearly the same thing. Don't project your hindsight and overview ideas onto Lyanna. You are not in love with Rhaegar. You are not the one who just delivered his child. You are not the one dying. You are not the one just learning that the father of your child is dead, as well as half your family.

I repeat there's no reason to assume Lyanna knows the particular of Brandon's death (you yourself admitted that Lyanna may have learned of their death only at her deathbed from Ned, and that he likely wouldn't have given her particulars). She is in love with Rhaegar, who certainly did not kill Brandon and Rickard himself, but his mad father, whom he wished to curtail. In love and as the mother of his child, Lyanna has a personal interest in not hating him or blaming him, certainly while she's dying.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

 That is not how feudalism works, especially for a dynasty dumb enough to not develop a royal army after their dragons died. 

 

 It can't have been. His wife was likely in the early to mid stages of her pregnancy with Aegon (he was born before Rhaegar took Lyanna and the World book said that was only 2-3 months later right?) so how did they have time to "fall in love"?

 

The onus is on Rhaegar for the cheating ...

You understand that this is a fictional world with fictional people who don't always react in a modern, "sensible" way to our reality and century? And that real life feudalism is not extremely relevant to this series of made up novels?

 

People fall in love in a matter of minutes in fiction, I don't see a reason why Lyanna and Rhaegar can't have had a real bond beginning at Harrenhal.

 

Also there is a precedent for the royal family to have multiple wives, it is not cheating by their standards so stop imposing your own onto these characters.  

[The Wolves]

So then why does he find it disturbing that Robert still hates Rhaegar? 

Because Robert could possibly transfer that hatred onto Rhaegar's son if he ever found him. 

[Clegane'sPup]

You understand that this is a fictional world with fictional people who don't always react in a modern, "sensible" way to our reality and century? And that real life feudalism is not extremely relevant to this series of made up novels?

People fall in love in a matter of minutes in fiction, I don't see a reason why Lyanna and Rhaegar can't have had a real bond beginning at Harrenhal.

<snip> 

Please have patience with me. I am making my first attempt at posting in the new format.  But when I read through the thread all I could think of was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvclig1K4jA

[NorthGirl]

Because Robert could possibly transfer that hatred onto Rhaegar's son if he ever found him. 

 

This.

You understand that this is a fictional world with fictional people who don't always react in a modern, "sensible" way to our reality and century? And that real life feudalism is not extremely relevant to this series of made up novels?

 

People fall in love in a matter of minutes in fiction, I don't see a reason why Lyanna and Rhaegar can't have had a real bond beginning at Harrenhal.

 

Also there is a precedent for the royal family to have multiple wives, it is not cheating by their standards so stop imposing your own onto these characters.  

Yes it is relevant because it's the model GRRM based this world on. And even if it wasn't you are ignoring my point of the following events being a counterpoint to what you say is the case. But thanks for trying to to talk down to me while completely missing the mark.

Yeah...When I come on this forum to discuss anything, I want to analyse things using logic, characterisation and bringing forth storytelling patterns the author uses. Not have conjecture be a wordy version "why noooot?" So I don't care what "people in fiction" do all the time. I care about what little info George has given me about both characters and how it fits into the  larger narrative presented to us. All I can take for granted is that George is good at portraying human emotions and making them "real" to sympathise/empathise with. Yes, they could have been infatuated with one another but that "real" bond you speak of is not something he has ever written as being something his characters achieve in 10 days. The closest it would be is Sansa's infatuation with Joffrey that had zero to do with Joffrey himself and all to do with who she wanted to be.

There are two precedents: Ageon I and Maegor the Cruel. Both had dragons and one was a psychopath. Unless Rhaegar had a dragon, he needed a lot more than just being the Crowned Prince of an army-less royalty to enforce his will. And it wasn't just that he wanted to have two wives, he took the betrothed of one of his LP who is also his second cousin. So really, unless he had a dragon to cow them, nobody gives a shit that he is the descendant of a bunch of inbred twats that used to have dragons as soon as he crosses the line. They don't have them anymore and have a shitty rule so...bye-bye. Whatever the system of Westeros is called, the IT doesn't mean shit when no one is backing them, which is dependent on them being liked by a majority or having dragons. The first one is a fail because he managed to offend the North, the Vale, The Stormlands and Dorne (Riverlands optional) with his actions so the majority was against him and the Westerlands were not about to support him after the refusal of Cersei's hand. And they didn't have dragons. Checkmate.

[purple-eyes]

I don't do right and wrong in puzzling out literary mysteries. Right and wrong and who's to blame for what are the most boring literary analysis imo. Especially in a series that doesn't deal in black-white morality and characters for the most part, except a few very evil men.

I said what I said, and there's no reason to twist it into meaning it to be some judgement call. It's not because you or someone else think a or b is the one to blame, that the characters involved woudl think so. And there's a gigantic difference between "not blaming" someone and thinking "you're right". It's not nearly the same thing. Don't project your hindsight and overview ideas onto Lyanna. You are not in love with Rhaegar. You are not the one who just delivered his child. You are not the one dying. You are not the one just learning that the father of your child is dead, as well as half your family.

I repeat there's no reason to assume Lyanna knows the particular of Brandon's death (you yourself admitted that Lyanna may have learned of their death only at her deathbed from Ned, and that he likely wouldn't have given her particulars). She is in love with Rhaegar, who certainly did not kill Brandon and Rickard himself, but his mad father, whom he wished to curtail. In love and as the mother of his child, Lyanna has a personal interest in not hating him or blaming him, certainly while she's dying.

sure. I agree with you on one thing. Here Lyanna is possibly acting as sansa in the early draft, choose to side with joff and their son against her father. Husband/lover and child before father and brother. She is in love so she will love her lover and child no matter what, thus try to justify his action.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

I'm sorry, I love Arya which would make it super hard for me to not like Lyanna and be "on her side" but this scenario sounds like a desperate attempt at trying to exonerate her while not making the last year and a half a torture by being raped and forced to have her rapist's baby away from everyone she loves, as she hears news of them dying. It's not impossible but I find it unlikely and a little too neat.

Where did I say Lyanna or Rhaegar are not responsible for their choices? BS! The fact is that YOU have no evidence either way, and that all sorts of scenarios are possible. I'm not saying that is the actual scenario, but I'm mentioning what other scenarios are indeed possible with George's style of narration in mind, against those who've made up their mind one way or the other. I think in a narrative way, and I know that George intends to make situations ambiguous, instead of clear cut. And that's why I'm pretty sure that whatever confirmed scenario he may give us (and I'm not convinced he will confirm much aside from Jon's parentage), it'll remain ambiguous. Rhaegar or Lyanna are neither proto-Ramsays nor angels.

[purple-eyes]

Where did I say Lyanna or Rhaegar are not responsible for their choices? BS! The fact is that YOU have no evidence either way, and that all sorts of scenarios are possible. I think in a narrative way, and I know that George intends to make situations ambiguous, instead of clear cut. And that's why I'm pretty sure that whatever confirmed scenario he may give us (and I'm not convinced he will confirm much aside from Jon's parentage), it'll remain ambiguous. Rhaegar or Lyanna are neither proto-Ramsays nor angels. 

I think they are just mad in love and can not survive without each other. 

This literally is true because after they separated, both died quickly. 

 

[sweetsunray]

sure. I agree with you on one thing. Here Lyanna is possibly acting as sansa in the early draft, choose to side with joff and their son against her father. Husband/lover and child before father and brother. She is in love so she will love her lover and child no matter what, thus try to justify his action.

Exactly. As readers we might think it folly and stupid and hiss over Sansa choosing not to back Arya's version of the Trident incident at Darry's when asked to testify and later turns explicitly against her sister, blaming Arya for the loss of Lady and only shrugging at the death of Mycah, but from her perspective it's completely understandable. She's the one who's to marry Joffrey, she's in love with him (even though he's a sadistic, dangerous boy), and it was her wolf that died while Lady never harmed anyone.

The whole Lyanna-Rhaegar abduction and "ooooh, they caused the rebellion and thousands to die" reminds me of the Trojan war. Greeks justified sacking Troy, taking all the noble women as courtesans (and they did rape these women), fling their children over the walls, etc, because Paris abducted the married Helen. The versions of that abduction cover all the colors of the rainbow:

• Paris and Helen gets taken off course and land in Egypt, where the pharao sends Paris away to Troy, but keeps Helen in Egypt, which keeps her a complete innocent. Does give the Greek a very poor excuse to war Troy for a decade and sack the city, because none of them even harbored her.
• Helen is the unwilling wife of Paris, hates him and rejoices when the Greeks sack Troy
• Helen is the unwilling wife of Menelaus and loves Paris better, elopes, and attempts to use spells and dances around the wooden horse in the hope all the Greeks die who've come to take her back
• Helen adapts to her situation she didn't ask for and loves Paris with whom she has children, but feels lonely, because aside from Hector (brother in law) and his father King Priam everybody in Troy hates her
• In one version Menelaus intends to kill her with his sword during the sack, but she drops her dress when he lifts his sword, and bedazzled by her body he takes her back.

Basically, it were all fanfic scenarios by the Greeks to either villify, exonnerate or just make her a human character. They didn't know the truth of it either, and made humongous assumptions depending on their personal view of Helen. Why? Because the Greeks attacked Troy for economical reasons - Troy lay at the mouth of the river passage to Thrace and demanded toll. The abduction was the romantic justification of it. So, Helen, Troy and Paris needed to be written in such a way that they were the amoral ones and the Greeks had the moral high ground. George does something similar with the Rebellion, by having Aerys being a nutcase who thinks that burning and choking Wardens and their heirs is the best political choice when you don't have WMD-Dragons nor a standing royal army. Since that is justification enough, imo he'll keep the abduction story of Lyanna as ambiguous as possible. He can afford to.

[purple-eyes]

Exactly. As readers we might think it folly and stupid and hiss over Sansa choosing not to back Arya's version of the Trident incident at Darry's when asked to testify and later turns explicitly against her sister, blaming Arya for the loss of Lady and only shrugging at the death of Mycah, but from her perspective it's completely understandable. She's the one who's to marry Joffrey, she's in love with him (even though he's a sadistic, dangerous boy), and it was her wolf that died while Lady never harmed anyone.

The whole Lyanna-Rhaegar abduction and "ooooh, they caused the rebellion and thousands to die" reminds me of the Trojan war. Greeks justified sacking Troy, taking all the noble women as courtesans (and they did rape these women), fling their children over the walls, etc, because Paris abducted the married Helen. The versions of that abduction cover all the colors of the rainbow:

• Paris and Helen gets taken off course and land in Egypt, where the pharao sends Paris away to Troy, but keeps Helen in Egypt, which keeps her a complete innocent. Does give the Greek a very poor excuse to war Troy for a decade and sack the city, because none of them even harbored her.
• Helen is the unwilling wife of Paris, hates him and rejoices when the Greeks sack Troy
• Helen is the unwilling wife of Menelaus and loves Paris better, elopes, and attempts to use spells and dances around the wooden horse in the hope all the Greeks die who've come to take her back
• Helen adapts to her situation she didn't ask for and loves Paris with whom she has children, but feels lonely, because aside from Hector (brother in law) and his father King Priam everybody in Troy hates her
• In one version Menelaus intends to kill her with his sword during the sack, but she drops her dress when he lifts his sword, and bedazzled by her body he takes her back.

Basically, it were all fanfic scenarios by the Greeks to either villify, exonnerate or just make her a human character. They didn't know the truth of it either, and made humongous assumptions depending on their personal view of Helen. Why? Because the Greeks attacked Troy for economical reasons - Troy lay at the mouth of the river passage to Thrace and demanded toll. The abduction was the romantic justification of it. So, Helen, Troy and Paris needed to be written in such a way that they were the amoral ones and the Greeks had the moral high ground. George does something similar with the Rebellion, by having Aerys being a nutcase who thinks that burning and choking Wardens and their heirs is the best political choice when you don't have WMD-Dragons nor a standing royal army. Since that is justification enough, imo he'll keep the abduction story of Lyanna as ambiguous as possible. He can afford to.

that is why rhaegar may be just a robb 2.0. 

Driven by mad love so he did a reckless thing without thinking the consequences (enough). 

Then aerys helped to make whole westeros become a red wedding. 

[Lady Sharya]

Hate the update, just lost my whole post. Gone...

Same thing happeed to me on another thead. I retyped it and sent it again...only to have it disappear again. I figured it wasn't worth saying a 3rd time.

[TakashiMifune]

I've said it before, but I still think that Ned knew all along. If all bets were off and Lyanna and Rhaegar were willing to allow war to continue by not admitting to the true nature of the "kidnapping", then I can also see it likely that Ned would not betray their secret as the war raged past the point of no return. Aerys was mad, after all, and deposing the Mad King sounded like a compelling idea, I'm sure. So, Lyanna would have had no need to confess to Ned because he was already privy to the secret. That is why he doesn't seem to hold a whole lot of animosity towards Rhaegar. All she asked of him was to care for their child.

[purple-eyes]

I've said it before, but I still think that Ned knew all along. If all bets were off and Lyanna and Rhaegar were willing to allow war to continue by not admitting to the true nature of the "kidnapping", then I can also see it likely that Ned would not betray their secret as the war raged past the point of no return. Aerys was mad, after all, and deposing the Mad King sounded like a compelling idea, I'm sure. So, Lyanna would have had no need to confess to Ned because he was already privy to the secret. That is why he doesn't seem to hold a whole lot of animosity towards Rhaegar. All she asked of him was to care for their child.

if lyanna did not tell him at some point, how can he figure out it is eloping? 

Brandon and everybody else thought it is kidnapping. Ned was far away. 

Unless lyanna sent him a letter to say it is eloping, Ned can not figure out.

[Lady Sharya]

I don't do right and wrong in puzzling out literary mysteries. Right and wrong and who's to blame for what are the most boring literary analysis imo. Especially in a series that doesn't deal in black-white morality and characters for the most part, except a few very evil men.

I said what I said, and there's no reason to twist it into meaning it to be some judgement call. It's not because you or someone else think a or b is the one to blame, that the characters involved woudl think so. And there's a gigantic difference between "not blaming" someone and thinking "you're right". It's not nearly the same thing. Don't project your hindsight and overview ideas onto Lyanna. You are not in love with Rhaegar. You are not the one who just delivered his child. You are not the one dying. You are not the one just learning that the father of your child is dead, as well as half your family.

 You just cut to the chase here....

[sweetsunray]

that is why rhaegar may be just a robb 2.0. 

Driven by mad love so he did a reckless thing without thinking the consequences (enough). 

Then aerys helped to make whole westeros become a red wedding. 

Well, Robb was rather driven by lust and grief, and then felt more responsible over Jeyne Westerling's honor than his own to keep his promise to the Freys. But yeah, I think you can parallel those two as well.