Tower of Joy - Blood Sacrifice - Summerhall 2.0 (Spoilers All)

[Rob Twin Stark]

 

 

Bed of Blood is an expression to a birthing bed, even post-birthing bed. It doesn't mean her bed is bloody. She is weakened from fever. This is explicitly mentioned by Ned in his memory of her dying. One of the most typical complications until well in the first half of the 20 century is puerperal fever. One of the Henry VIII's wife died from it. If a woman is helped during delivery with unsterilized hands and tools, she is sure to contract a bacterial infection. The uterus is an open wound and needs a while to heal. So, the bacterias can get right into the bloodstream. Fever implies sepsis. And puerperal fever can also cause hemmorhages. Following quote is from Eddard's first chapter in the first book, down in the crypts while talking to Robert.

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.(aGoT, Eddard I)

 

Fever is a very common Symptom, she having fever don't mean she died from it necessarily, nor that she died a weak after the birth. She could had died due to loss of blood, due to a infection, a diseases and so on hours after the child-birth. The "bed of blood" being literal is more plausible and much more dramatic, as is the child being a new born. 

  

  

[LordDireStark]

IF R+L=D....  Who did QueenRhaella give birth to on Dragonstone? Who was the baby that was taken out of Dragonstone with Viserys ? Did Rhaegar take Lyanna's baby to Dragonstone before he went to the Trident? I find that harder to believe than R+L=J.  As far as Lyanna is concerned,she didn't die from fever. She died from complications of childbirth.At some point after birth,she started to hemmhorage and the loss of blood probably led to enemia and fever which would also account for her being so weak she could barely speak.As for R+L=J,I'll go with that theory just because that's where its pointing right now. Granted,there is a lot that went on that we don't know,so I'll wait for GRRM to fill us in.

[sweetsunray]

They could go to the Trident without going to Kings Landing easy enough. Letting three Kingsguard protecting the Tower of Joy would mean jack shit if Rhaegar lost in the Trident, in other hand three of the greatest  knights on Westeros could have made a huge difference in the battle. It not as Rhaegar don't have other friends he could have send Lyanna to any loyalist castle until his return, with orders to ship her to the Narrow Sea in case he died. 

As Rhaegar's comments to Jaime at KL before setting out for the Trident to confront Robert shows, Rhaegar didn't even fear losing against Robert. He was totally confident how he'd be back and be able to make some highly needed changes. So, apparently Rhaegar did not even think he needed the extra 3 KG, and was full of confidence that he'd win. .

A read most of the counter argument and I'm not convinced. People fallow R+L=J as a religion, it will be a busy day in hell when GRRM reveals the "truth", lol. Never saw a good counter argument to "Promise", the explanation Ned suddenly realized that Jon is in danger in the wall is laughably. The timeline is too confused, so it can't disprove the either theory. The only good counter is about how Ned wouldn't have to lie if Jon was Brandon son, but I don't believe he is, so down go that. If there is a argument that proves R+L=D as wrong please, post it, I'm not aware of it.

Always find it strange when people think George trolls his readers.

Not sure what you're on about as "counter argument" to "promise" and "Ned realizing that Jon is in danger at the wall"? Do you mean the "false promise" and how some believe the letter he wanted to write in the dungeon and false promise has anything to do with Jon? Actually, I think Ned kept his promise to Lyanna about Jon, although Lyanna herself might disagree... Ned tends to fulfill his promises in ways the person who asks for the promise rarely intended it. He keeps his promise to Barra's mother to mention her baby's name to Robert and how much she loves him. But Chataya's whore hardly intended him to say, "The fool girl is in love with you. And you believed she'd have sense?". Robert asks Ned for a promise to keep his children safe, meaning Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcilla. Ned makes the promise thinking of Robert's bastards. The sole promises he was never abel to keep were the promises he made to Robert on his death bed: eat a slice of the boar (with an apple), repeal the assassination attempt on Dany and take care of Robert's bastards as his own. That's what the "broken promises" and the dreams of "blood" are about (note it does not say "bed of blood" in that particular dungeon phrase) - Robert's gruesome red smile of death, the winesoaked bandages dark of black blood, smell of death, and broken promises. And I believe the letter he mentioned to Varys had Gendry as a subject, and that ultimately it was Ned's request and idea to let Gendry come with him to the Wall, so that he could care for both Gendry and Jon as if they were his own at the Wall. Varys helped because he wanted Ned to confess his treason and to die of sepsis on the KR (Ned had signs of sepsis caused by gangrene on his open bone break) to stall the war. Gendry was harmless enough, and completely unusable as evidence against Cersei's children - his blond mother was long dead.

Dany was conceived shortly before the sack of KL. There are numerous witnesses to her birth at Dragonstone before her mother died and Darry fled with her and Viserys.

[sweetsunray]

Fever is a very common Symptom, she having fever don't mean she died from it necessarily, nor that she died a weak after the birth. She could had died due to loss of blood, due to a infection, a diseases and so on hours after the child-birth. The "bed of blood" being literal is more plausible and much more dramatic, as is the child being a new born.  

I advize you to reread the ToJ dream and then the scene that follows right after in the chapter. Within the dream George repeats a set of numbers (3 against 7). When he's awake he thinks of how 8 died South. We know the 3 KG died, and so that 5 of Ned's men died. The same numbers appear again in the conversation between Robert and Cersei and Ned immediately after in the same chapter: 7 died, says Robert. 8, corrects Cersei him. Ned complains how Jaime had 3 of his men killed. And Robert retorts that Ned killed 5 of Jaime's. Ned talks about a foolish girl in love to Robert (he's talking about Barra's mother), but heck he might as well be talking about Lyanna. So, you've got some number repetence but also reversal.

• 3 KG + 5 of Ned's men <> 3 of Ned's men + 5 of Jaime's men
• Ned keeping the parentage of his sister's child secret <> Jaime keeping the parentage of his sister's children secret
• Ned's sister was allegedly abducted on the KR in the RL <> Jaime's brother was abducted on the KR in the RL
• Ned visits with Lyanna and a baby + promises + fight before or after <> Ned visits with a mother and a baby + promises + fight after
• Lyanna dies weak from fever <> Ned wakes from his ToJ dream "weak as a kitten"

Are you seeing the patterns? Ned asks how long he's been out when he wakes. The answer is 6 days and 7 nights. There's your literary parallel answer: Lyanna died 7 nights and 6 days after giving birth.

Of course she died from infection. Fever is a basic sign of infection. Puerperal fever is the most common form of infection for a mother who has given birth to die from. Without antibiotics, the mother develops sepsis (the whole body trying to fight a severe infection affecting the full body system) and eventually goes into septic shock.

 

[Maxxine]

 See Preston Jacobs videos on the Tower of the Joy for more information, it is quite convincing. Especially the R+L=D part, the B+A=J I'm not that sure about. 

So just watched the video & im not convinced especially about R+L=D. He still doesn't explain away two major issues. 1) What happened to the baby born at Dragonstone? There's no question that Viserys' mother was pregnant when they fled to Dragonstone so what happened to this baby? 2) And as I asked earlier when & how did Ned get the baby to Viserys & his handlers. There's no question Viserys & his mother went to Dragonstone & Viserys doesn't leave until Dany is born & then Stannis comes, which I believe happens after TOJ. Also why would Viserys need to lie to Dany about who she is? Niece or sister she is behind him in the line of succession. And do we really think Viserys is that cunning to figure out this kind of lie at any age, let alone 8, which is how old he is when Dany is born? I just think this theory is a reach. While there is some mystery surrounding Dany's childhood there is none regarding where & when she was born.

B+A=J makes even less sense. The timeline doesn't add up. The whole he passed a 1 yo off as younger doesn't work. And even if the timeline did work why would Ned lie about Jon being the child of Brandon & Ashara. No one is out trying to kill Daynes so Jon wouldn't need this protection. Plus Ned's life w/ Catelyn is much easier if he says this my brother's bastard not mine.

And with the blood sacrifice thing & the KG idk how that fits either (even though it's not as much as a stretch as the other 2). Why did they need 3 KG when you only needed 3 sacrifices and Lyanna & the baby were already inside. You would only need one more. I guess you could say that maybe he didn't plan on sacrificing Lyanna & the baby but then you place them in the tower that has wildfire under it. That's an unnecessary risk.

[LordDireStark]

 

The "bed of blood" line was meant to be literal. It was meant this way because whenever death by childbirth is mentioned its in the context of the woman dying from a hemmhorage not infection. And during those times it was a common cause of complication of childbirth.

[sweetsunray]

 

The "bed of blood" line was meant to be literal. It was meant this way because whenever death by childbirth is mentioned its in the context of the woman dying from a hemmhorage not infection. And during those times it was a common cause of complication of childbirth.

as was infection, and hemmhorages could be caused by infection during post-complications. And there are loads of deaths and complications that are considered to be birthing-complications  even up to weeks after giving birth. There's a reason why women were told at some point to remain abed 9-20 days after giving birth.

[Regular John Umber]

OP, your questions and remarks are good one. The proposed answers are a start, but IMHO there is more to that. There are many other strange things: Lyanna's attitude at Harrendal, Rhaegar doing everything wrong from abduction to his death ...

R+L=J is true. I cannot see otherwise. But I believe both Rhaegar, Lyanna and the KG were acting to fulfill a prophecy. “And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne at the ToJ.

 Oy, that's a really clever catch, I like that! It is often interpreted that he is talking about the impending skirmish, but that makes a lot of sense.

[redeagl]

This is a good theory and indeed it is better than "Forbidden love"

[Rob Twin Stark]

IF R+L=D....  Who did QueenRhaella give birth to on Dragonstone? Who was the baby that was taken out of Dragonstone with Viserys ? Did Rhaegar take Lyanna's baby to Dragonstone before he went to the Trident? I find that harder to believe than R+L=J.  As far as Lyanna is concerned,she didn't die from fever. She died from complications of childbirth.At some point after birth,she started to hemmhorage and the loss of blood probably led to enemia and fever which would also account for her being so weak she could barely speak.As for R+L=J,I'll go with that theory just because that's where its pointing right now. Granted,there is a lot that went on that we don't know,so I'll wait for GRRM to fill us in.

I believe that Queen Rhaella baby was a stillborn. Danny(Lyanna's baby) lived in Dorne for her first few years, likely under the protection of House Dayne, that would explain the memories of the Red Door with the Lemon Three, only after that period Danny would be taken across the Narrow sea to be with Viserys. And I agree Lyanna died from loss of blood.

-

Notice that R+L=D dosen't need to be true to my theory to work.   

[Rob Twin Stark]

As Rhaegar's comments to Jaime at KL before setting out for the Trident to confront Robert shows, Rhaegar didn't even fear losing against Robert. He was totally confident how he'd be back and be able to make some highly needed changes. So, apparently Rhaegar did not even think he needed the extra 3 KG, and was full of confidence that he'd win. .

 

- Rhaegar would be facing one of the great fighters and military commanders of Westeros, who at that point already defeated people like his friend Jon Connington, if he fail it would mean his death and likely the end of his dynasty.... I really doubt he wasn't afraid.  He was being brave, but to let three KG behind without any good reason risking the like of so many, including the life of Lyanna and her baby, would be unthinkable stupid.  Much more likely is that they stayed behind to perform a task of equal or greater importance that couldn't be delayed: a ritual. 

- The Promise argument show how the promise in the books doesn't seem to be associated with Jon in any way. When Ned thinks about the promise he make to Lyanna it make him want to stay in Kings Landing, what would make no sense what so ever if the promise was related to Jon.  Ned fight against seeding assassin against Dany and when he resigns the Promise comes hunting him again.      

 

 

[Rob Twin Stark]

1) What happened to the baby born at Dragonstone? There's no question that Viserys' mother was pregnant when they fled to Dragonstone so what happened to this baby? 2) And as I asked earlier when & how did Ned get the baby to Viserys & his handlers. There's no question Viserys & his mother went to Dragonstone & Viserys doesn't leave until Dany is born & then Stannis comes, which I believe happens after TOJ. Also why would Viserys need to lie to Dany about who she is? Niece or sister she is behind him in the line of succession. And do we really think Viserys is that cunning to figure out this kind of lie at any age, let alone 8, which is how old he is when Dany is born? I just think this theory is a reach. While there is some mystery surrounding Dany's childhood there is none regarding where & when she was born.

B+A=J makes even less sense. The timeline doesn't add up. The whole he passed a 1 yo off as younger doesn't work. And even if the timeline did work why would Ned lie about Jon being the child of Brandon & Ashara. No one is out trying to kill Daynes so Jon wouldn't need this protection. Plus Ned's life w/ Catelyn is much easier if he says this my brother's bastard not mine.

And with the blood sacrifice thing & the KG idk how that fits either (even though it's not as much as a stretch as the other 2). Why did they need 3 KG when you only needed 3 sacrifices and Lyanna & the baby were already inside. You would only need one more. I guess you could say that maybe he didn't plan on sacrificing Lyanna & the baby but then you place them in the tower that has wildfire under it. That's an unnecessary risk.

1) The Baby likely died stillborn, a very common event.

2) Danny(Lyanna's baby) lived in Dorne for her first few years, likely under the protection of House Dayne, that would explain the memories of the Red Door with the Lemon Three, only after that period Danny would be taken across the Narrow sea to be with Viserys. Yes Viserys lied to her, he is the only source we have for her supposed birth in Dragonstone. We don't know why Viserys lied, but we know he did, he lied about bravos and the Red Door house, why wouldn't he lied about her birth? There is cleary a reason for him to lie to her that GRRM didn't reveal yet so to not spoil R+L=D.

3) Yes B+A=J dosen't make sense to me, I agree, unless GRMM will make some major revels. I think N+A=J more likely than B+A=J, but in truth a don't really know who Jon mother is.... and that is likely GRMM intention, it is the biggest mystery in the book after all. Why would he keep reveling small pieces of information about Ashara, About Reed, about Wylla, about Jon being milk brother to Ned Dayne and so on if the Mystery was solved from book one?

4) I don't know how the sacrifice works exactly but someone must be there to perform the magic, just like Mirri Maz Duur did with Danny. It was likely Gerold Hightower, considering his family obsession with magic, and the ritual likely needed to be performed in a specific date, just like it was with Danny(the Red Comet). The other two were there to keep her prisoner, buy supplies and so on, one man alone can't do it. And it need to be those tree because they are the only three that were aware of the sacrifice plot. If the objective was only to protect Lyanna any trusted man-at-arms could do it, but the ritual is a much more delicate matter.  

[Maxxine]

1) The Baby likely died stillborn, a very common event.

2) Danny(Lyanna's baby) lived in Dorne for her first few years, likely under the protection of House Dayne, that would explain the memories of the Red Door with the Lemon Three, only after that period Danny would be taken across the Narrow sea to be with Viserys. Yes Viserys lied to her, he is the only source we have for her supposed birth in Dragonstone. We don't know why Viserys lied, but we know he did, he lied about bravos and the Red Door house, why wouldn't he lied about her birth? There is cleary a reason for him to lie to her that GRRM didn't reveal yet so to not spoil R+L=D.

3) Yes B+A=J dosen't make sense to me, I agree, unless GRMM will make some major revels. I think N+A=J more likely than B+A=J, but in truth a don't really know who Jon mother is.... and that is likely GRMM intention, it is the biggest mystery in the book after all. Why would he keep reveling small pieces of information about Ashara, About Reed, about Wylla, about Jon being milk brother to Ned Dayne and so on if the Mystery was solved from book one?

4) I don't know how the sacrifice works exactly but someone must be there to perform the magic, just like Mirri Maz Duur did with Danny. It was likely Gerold Hightower, considering his family obsession with magic, and the ritual likely needed to be performed in a specific date, just like it was with Danny(the Red Comet). The other two were there to keep her prisoner, buy supplies and so on, one man alone can't do it. And it need to be those tree because they are the only three that were aware of the sacrifice plot. If the objective was only to protect Lyanna any trusted man-at-arms could do it, but the ritual is a much more delicate matter.  

1) The baby was stillborn and no one mentioned it and/or no one noticed there was never a baby.

2) There is no evidence that Viserys had reason or the capacity to make up this lie and keep this secret. And if this was true. Viserys would have known about the Dornish alliance, which we already know he did not know about. When Dany finds about the marriage she notes that if Viserys would have known he would've took off to Dorne as soon as he was old enough. And I don't think Viserys lied about the red door. She remembers the red door herself. She may be misremembering where the red door is or perhaps never knew where she was, but this was not something just told to her by Viserys. Also if she was under the protection of the Daynes for the first few years of her life why would they send her across the Narrow Sea to Viserys, who would still be very young at this point. Wouldn't she be safer at Starfall. They could have easily have passed her off as a Dayne bastard. She'd be safer that way.

3) Yeah B+A=J is really grasping at straws. If R+L=J isn't true then my money would be on N+A=J. But, I'm still a believer in the former. I just believe that Jon is a very important and more than just LC of the Nights Watch. If anyone other than Lyanna is not the mother, it doesn't make sense for the rest of the plot. If he's just Ned's bastard then why is he keeping the mother a secret. There's nno justification for it. Everyone knows you cheated because you brought the baby back, so why does it matter who you cheated with whether it's Ashara, Wylla, or anyone else. It would do nothing for the plot except just answering the question of who his mother is.

4)It would take two other knights to hold a pregnant woman? If that's all they were there for it would have only taken one knight. At the most two (assuming they had to go somewhere and buy supplies & wanted one person with Lyanna at all times). Hightower could've done the spell and be a sacrifice just like MMD was assuming she was actually performing a spell when she was on the pyre singing. And who does Rhaegar trust more than KG?

[sweetsunray]

- Rhaegar would be facing one of the great fighters and military commanders of Westeros, who at that point already defeated people like his friend Jon Connington, if he fail it would mean his death and likely the end of his dynasty.... I really doubt he wasn't afraid.  He was being brave, but to let three KG behind without any good reason risking the like of so many, including the life of Lyanna and her baby, would be unthinkable stupid.  Much more likely is that they stayed behind to perform a task of equal or greater importance that couldn't be delayed: a ritual. 

- The Promise argument show how the promise in the books doesn't seem to be associated with Jon in any way. When Ned thinks about the promise he make to Lyanna it make him want to stay in Kings Landing, what would make no sense what so ever if the promise was related to Jon.  Ned fight against seeding assassin against Dany and when he resigns the Promise comes hunting him again.      

 

 

Hmmm, we have given you valid reasons why they remained: Rhaegar didn't worry about being defeated and not giving Aerys the chance to order the KG to fess up. If you want to make ritual the reason for it, by all means, but it's not the sole answer to why they had to be left behind.

The promise: Ned hardly ever thinks of Jon, Rhaegar or the KG. There's just bits and pieces here and there. Reason: because George doesn't wanted to reveal it yet. And while "promise" can be applied to whichever baby you wish, the "promise me" and "keeping promises" features in scenes where he makes promises to a parent about their children.

I disagree though that "promise me" is what makes Ned want to stay in KL. He doesn't want to stay in KL. Jaime made him stay, and a fall from a horse (and the many parallels of the Jaime-Ned fight with the Ned-KG fight is wht prompted the ToJ dream). Then Robert pinned the hand's pin on him again, like it or not, OR he'd pin the damn thing on Jaime. He never accepted being the Hand or going to KL for any promise - but to find out what Jon Arryn died for. He resigned his position, when Robert and he came to blows over Dany. He didn't want to be Hand in the first place, and he didn't intend to sell his principles for a job he didn't want anyway. But Robert doesn't want to let him go, and that's when he commits himself to rule for the king. Then he gets another nightmare the night Robert is brought in and dies. There are numerous interpretations possible for it, but they do not exclude every explanation but Dany.

As for Lemongate - a member here has researched one of the original transcript release chapters of aGoT in a magazine and originally George had Viserys and Dany grow up in Volantis instead of Braavos with the Sealord. Afterwards he altered it to Braavos, without removing the lemon tree reference, even though Braavos is far more north.

If Viserys' sister or brother had been born stillborn then it would have been known. Darry didn't smuggle the whole of Dragonstone's household out with him - just himself and the children. The servants would have talked to Stannis.

[Rob Twin Stark]

1) The baby died stillborn and no one mentioned and/or no one noticed there was never a baby.

2) There is no evidence that Viserys had reason or the capacity to make up this lie and keep this secret. And if this was true. Viserys would have known about the Dornish alliance, which we already know he did not know about. When Dany finds about the marriage she notes that if Viserys would have known he would've took off to Dorne as soon as he was old enough. And I don't think Viserys lied about the red door. She remembers the red door herself. She may be misremembering where the red door is or perhaps never knew where she was, but this was not something just told to her by Viserys. Also if she was under the protection of the Daynes for the first few years of her life why would they send her across the Narrow Sea to Viserys, who would still be very young at this point. Wouldn't she be safer at Starfall. They could have easily have passed her off as a Dayne bastard. She'd be safer that way.

3) Yeah B+A=J is really grasping at straws. If R+L=J isn't true then my money would be on N+A=J. But, I'm still a believer in the former. I just believe that Jon is a very important and more than just LC of the Nights Watch. If anyone other than Lyanna is not the mother, it doesn't make sense for the rest of the plot. If he's just Ned's bastard then why is he keeping the mother a secret. There's nno justification for it. Everyone knows you cheated because you brought the baby back, so why does it matter who you cheated with whether it's Ashara, Wylla, or anyone else. It would do nothing for the plot except just answering the question of who his mother is.

4)It would take two other knights to hold a pregnant woman? If that's all they were there for it would have only taken one knight. At the most two (assuming they had to go somewhere and buy supplies & wanted one person with Lyanna at all times). Hightower could've done the spell and be a sacrifice just like MMD was assuming she was actually performing a spell when she was on the pyre singing. And who does Rhaegar trust more than KG?

1) That the thing we don't have the report of no one from Dragonstone except Viserys, if the baby was still born(or not) we have no way of knowing. 

2) Assuming that Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna than maybe the reason for the Targ loyalist to lie about it was to legitimize her as a true Targaryen, since Viserys and Danny were the last Targaryan alive it would be important that both of them were unquestionable legit, in case that Viserys died in infancy for example, if Danny was only "Rhaegar bastard" the Targaryan dinasty would have ended just there.

What the secret marriage pact have to do with it? The Targ loyalist made a pact whiteout telling Viserys, what that have to do with him knowing (or not) about Danny birth? 

Viserys undoubtedly lied about the Red Door. Viserys told Danny that she passed her infancy in Bravos, and that the Red Door house was there. She remembers the Red Door herself, but it is Viserys that tell her that the Red Door is on Bravos(what we know from a fact isn't) so Viserys for some reason IS lying to her, we don't know why, but if he lied about this he can easily enough be lying about Danny's birth. 

We don't know the circumstances that led Danny out of Dorne, if I was a betting man I would say it have something to do with the mysterious Donnish Master Plan. Doran and Oberyn were planning their vengeance for 15 years, their plan surely is composed of more than to make marriage pact with Viserys and them let he wonder the free city's(whiteout any support whatsoever) as the beggar king hoping that somehow he is able to get a army....     

3) There is something very weird about Jon birth. Like I explain in the Theory; for some reason  no one seems to think that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar son, when they surely should! One of the biggest problem with R+L=J is to explain how players as smart as Varys, Littlefinger and Tywin didn't figure it out. The only possible explanation is that they have information that we the reader don't, that makes clear that R+L=J isn't true. 

Ashara being Jon mother could be a big thing assuming her is still alive, what I definitively think she is!(Suicide without a body... come on!!!). It make sense if N+A=J is true that Ned would keep it a secret. 

4) The Knights guarding Lyanna need to sleep! So three is a good number to keep one always awake, and for having some of them to go resupply and see the news from time to time.  "And who does Rhaegar trust more than KG?"  No one. But if he just need someone to keep a eye, and protect Lyanna, he doesn't need his most trusted friends, if he win the war no one will come for her anyway, he could just have left some good loyal soldiers. But if he is doing some dark ritual, them it would make sense to have only his most trusted friends aware of it.  

[Rob Twin Stark]

Hmmm, we have given you valid reasons why they remained: Rhaegar didn't worry about being defeated and not giving Aerys the chance to order the KG to fess up. If you want to make ritual the reason for it, by all means, but it's not the sole answer to why they had to be left behind.

The promise: Ned hardly ever thinks of Jon, Rhaegar or the KG. There's just bits and pieces here and there. Reason: because George doesn't wanted to reveal it yet. And while "promise" can be applied to whichever baby you wish, the "promise me" and "keeping promises" features in scenes where he makes promises to a parent about their children.

I disagree though that "promise me" is what makes Ned want to stay in KL. He doesn't want to stay in KL. Jaime made him stay, and a fall from a horse (and the many parallels of the Jaime-Ned fight with the Ned-KG fight is wht prompted the ToJ dream). Then Robert pinned the hand's pin on him again, like it or not, OR he'd pin the damn thing on Jaime. He never accepted being the Hand or going to KL for any promise - but to find out what Jon Arryn died for. He resigned his position, when Robert and he came to blows over Dany. He didn't want to be Hand in the first place, and he didn't intend to sell his principles for a job he didn't want anyway. But Robert doesn't want to let him go, and that's when he commits himself to rule for the king. Then he gets another nightmare the night Robert is brought in and dies. There are numerous interpretations possible for it, but they do not exclude every explanation but Dany.

As for Lemongate - a member here has researched one of the original transcript release chapters of aGoT in a magazine and originally George had Viserys and Dany grow up in Volantis instead of Braavos with the Sealord. Afterwards he altered it to Braavos, without removing the lemon tree reference, even though Braavos is far more north.

If Viserys' sister or brother had been born stillborn then it would have been known. Darry didn't smuggle the whole of Dragonstone's household out with him - just himself and the children. The servants would have talked to Stannis.

- Why wouldn't Rhaegar worry about being defeated? Have you ever being in a shooting? I can tell you it is hard to not be afraid in a situation like that, and you can die at any moment. Rhaegar had to be a complete moron if  the possibility of death didn't cross his mind. If he cared about protecting Lyanna and the baby he wouldn't have left them in a situation where is demise resulted in her death. Hell by your theory he somehow thought it was a good idea to let them in a tower whiteout any way of receiving news(what is preposterous by the way). And like I said the Kingsguard didn't have to go to Kings Landing! They could have gone directly to the Trident.  

- They could have kept the stillborn as a secret from the servants from each ever reason.  The lemon tree is in the Sealord palace is that what you believe? 

-  I really don't care for a in deep discussion of R+L=D, it is enough to say that there is no definitive argument to disprove it.

- Until know you didn't make any argument that can be use again't Summerhall 2.0, you only made points of how it could have worked without it; manly Rhaegar being suicidal sure of his victory, and the Kinguard being left behind to...? Make Lyanna company I guess, because without any news they would be powerless to protect her... 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

So. Gerold, Oswell and Arthur were about to make a human sacrifice out of Ned's little sister, yet Ned still thinks of them as the epitome of awesome? Makes sense. Not.

The "nobody figured out R+L=J": well, for starters, that's because nobody really cares about bastards. When Ned learned that Jon Arryn and Stannis had been investigating Robert's bastards, he was genuinely puzzled: whatever for? Similarly, in the North, there's one Ramsay Snow, Roose Bolton's natural son. Does anyone in the world inquire about his mother? Does anyone care? Nope. The man says the kid is his, case closed. People would sometimes express moderate curiosity, appropriate for a piece of juicy gossip, and that's it.

You say: "we know what's needed for hatching dragons...". Well, you're wrong. We don't know. We witnessed one such event, caused by Dany, who herself didn't know, either. We can only speculate what factor(s) caused the little ones to hatch.

On a tangent note, you're also quite wrong about, you assume, Rhaella's stillbirth on Dragonstone. At the birth, there had to be several people present, as that's how you roll when you're a queen in a medieval setting. So, whatever was born, at least a dozen people knew instantly, and the entire crew of the fortress a few hours later. Servants, knights, soldiers, etc. "Rhaella died giving birth to Daenerys" isn't just something that Viserys tells Dany, it's public knowledge. For the "a stillbirth and a cover up" theory to work, several people must have been in on the conspiracy, and kept the charade after the fall of the Targaryen monarchy, after the fall of Dragonstone to Stannis Baratheon, and for what?

Bottom line, nothing to it.

[John Suburbs]

I was with you right up until the end OP. I'm not clear on why it would have to be Dany for the blood sacrifice and not Jon, or both. 

But the rest of it makes sense and actually answers a number of questions regarding the KG, the location and why smart people like Varys didn't put two-and-two together.

Good job 

 

[Rob Twin Stark]

I was with you right up until the end OP. I'm not clear on why it would have to be Dany for the blood sacrifice and not Jon, or both. 

But the rest of it makes sense and actually answers a number of questions regarding the KG, the location and why smart people like Varys didn't put two-and-two together.

Good job 

 

Thanks. Like I said, my Theory can work very well with R+L=J, I just think(personally) that R+L=D is better. But Both work fine.  

[Rob Twin Stark]

So. Gerold, Oswell and Arthur were about to make a human sacrifice out of Ned's little sister, yet Ned still thinks of them as the epitome of awesome? Makes sense. Not.

The "nobody figured out R+L=J": well, for starters, that's because nobody really cares about bastards. When Ned learned that Jon Arryn and Stannis had been investigating Robert's bastards, he was genuinely puzzled: whatever for? Similarly, in the North, there's one Ramsay Snow, Roose Bolton's natural son. Does anyone in the world inquire about his mother? Does anyone care? Nope. The man says the kid is his, case closed. People would sometimes express moderate curiosity, appropriate for a piece of juicy gossip, and that's it.

You say: "we know what's needed for hatching dragons...". Well, you're wrong. We don't know. We witnessed one such event, caused by Dany, who herself didn't know, either. We can only speculate what factor(s) caused the little ones to hatch.

On a tangent note, you're also quite wrong about, you assume, Rhaella's stillbirth on Dragonstone. At the birth, there had to be several people present, as that's how you roll when you're a queen in a medieval setting. So, whatever was born, at least a dozen people knew instantly, and the entire crew of the fortress a few hours later. Servants, knights, soldiers, etc. "Rhaella died giving birth to Daenerys" isn't just something that Viserys tells Dany, it's public knowledge. For the "a stillbirth and a cover up" theory to work, several people must have been in on the conspiracy, and kept the charade after the fall of the Targaryen monarchy, after the fall of Dragonstone to Stannis Baratheon, and for what?

Bottom line, nothing to it.

- In no point in his POV chapters Ned says or thinks anything good(discounting about their prowess in fighting) of Gerold, Oswell and Atrhur, you are just assuming he thinks highly of them.  

- That a false equivalence if a ever saw one. No one cares about Ramsay because his existence wasn't interfering with succession, and people DID care about Robert bastards, to the point of ordering them to be killed. It was common knowledge that Rhaegar was banging Lyanna for months, the possibility of a bastard should be in everyone head, them suddenly Ned the guy that nobody ever saw breaking his matrimonial vows(even during a entire military campaign!) suddenly appears with a "bastard"! Anyone with half a brain would have figured that Jon is Rhaegar son. 

- We do know the elements needed to hatch a egg, we have two try's as a example a failed one: Summerhall, and a successful one: with Danny. The similarity's of both this occasions with the Tower of Joy are striking. 

- Rhaella's child-birth was hardly a normal occasion, who knows how that went down? Maybe the Targ loyalist decided that would be on their best interest to keep it private.