You are a King/Queen of a Westerosi Kingdom in 3 BC Avoid Targaryen Colonization

[The Dovakhiin]

a- numbers played a big part too. Russia could afford making mistakes and losing ridiculous amount of soldiers and still get on top.I don't know much about Haiti but I got mates who either served in Afghanistan or had their father serve there (both Russians and Americans). Both say the same thing about the people there. Each and every person there knows how to fight from the tiny 10 year old to the elderly 80 year old who can barely walk. The person who smiled at you yesterday may try to kill you today because earlier on you stared at his third cousin daughter for too long. A warlike population can make a big big army dear

b-Simple, the books. Whenever things get wrong or the Northern Lords get slighted (even a little like having to follow the Glovers at the van) the Northern Lords reaction was that of turning tail and go home to their desolate castle in the middle of nowhere. That includes Ned who had been central in all King Rob campaigns. He never shown a hint of ambition in his life and would have preferred being holed in Winterfell than be Hand of the King. For a Northern Lord, home is everything. He mingle with the people, his sons and wards are well versed with the local whores, his daughters play with the butcher boys and he even make sure he cuts the heads of every northern person (including his children's pets) personally. Do you think that such lord would turn tail and abandon his own people to the Southern invader in their time of need? I much doubt it. Honour is everything for them. Brandon Stark went to KL alone to face Rhaegar, Rickard did the same in a bid to save his boy, Robb didn't even waited to build a decent army in a bid to save his grandpa and his uncle. That's not the mentality of someone capable of fighting guerilla warfare at least not in his own lands. 

c- And that is exactly why I dont think that guerilla warfare would work in the North. Ultimately a Greatjon would rather die in his own castle than abandoning his people in a tactical retreat. 

The Starks aren't traitors and Rickon/Bran/Arya/Sansa (the last is not as clear cut) can't be blamed of their brother's mistakes. If Aegon can get his hands to one of them, especially the boys and have him bend the knee to him than he's got a winner. The North would do its outmost to get rid of the treacherous Boltons and restore the Starks as Lord Paramount of the North

 

 

a) ??? Numbers are obviously an advantage if you have it, but not essential. Terrain, tactics and flexibility are by far more important in Guerilla warfare. Unpredictability and the element of surprise is far more valuable in defensive war. So your mind the North isn't as warlike as Afghan 10 year olds? They seem pretty tough to me. Oh, and burning everything around him like some people would have Aegon do would quickly make everyone willing to become warlike.

Haiti was the most valuable real estate in the new world under french brutal control. Slave rebellion lead by L'Overture broke out into a savage and bloody war between Haitian tried of oppression and Major European imperial powers such as Napoleonic France, Britian and Spain as well as guest staring the USA. Haiti won. If you have the determination to resist you will.

A combination of terrain unsuitable for standard warfare, a leaders genius (a lot of the powers mentions joined just to stop the "inferior" black general puting their "superior" white generals to the sword), a determined people and their enemies requiring long supply lines is why Haiti could resist Half the world and win independence as the first REAL free Republic of the Americas. Read up on it its a spectacular piece of history routinely ignored by the West for obvious reasons. 

Back to ASOIAF. If you commit to Guerilla warfare you can resit the overwhelming force of any nation. 

B ) There is a difference between fighting for vengeance and fighting for your way of life. Do you think the Northern lords are irrational idiots incapable of comprehending what is at stake if they arent willing to sacrifice for the cause? Threatening to not assist your teenage overlord in fulfilling his revenge fantasy and Betraying your nation during a defensive war are nothing alike. Plus you dont even really NEED the individual lords, men willing to die for their country and king will suffice. Remember its Guerilla war not pitched batte, small bands of warriors working independently and in tandem depending on the situation is what is required. What the North did in the situation they face in the books cannot be used to predict how an independent Northern Kingdom would act when asked to engage in asymmetrical warfare.

Dorne is also supposed to be filled with hot blooded, impulsive people and lords yet they recognise that in order to win a defensive war they needed to fight smart. These are the people that wanted to take on the 160,000 troop strong Tyrell-Lannister alliance with 11,000 spearmen in an offensive war for god sake!  Dorne isnt and has never been as united as The North, were the Kings of Winter rein supreme. 

C) Any Stark that claims the lordship of Winterfell while Torrhen is resisting an invasion is by definition a traitor that has committed high treason. No, Aegon 1 wouldn't have a winner he would have an usurper, the North wouldn't rally around such a man. 

As long as Torrhen is alive no Stark or any other house can claim overlordship of the North.

 

 

[Maester of Valyria]

 

Land beyond the wall

Well I have mix feelings about that. Its true that part of it is inhospitable. However its also true that its been isolated and poorly managed for thousand of years. The haunted forest is rich of iron wood, sentinel and oak. The thenns are rich of bronze, iron and leather and the land is rich of all sort of exotic creatures from the children of the forest to giants, from direwolf to snow cats. There's alot to learn from such cultures while the exotic animals can be sold for big money to Essos.

Also with the freefolk out of the way, the night's watch will not be needed anymore. The wall and the gift could be given to noblemen royal to the crown. The North's smallfolk will be grateful of getting rid of the freefolk who constantly raid the Northern villages and will become more loyal to the crown. The North will become richer through trade with the new colonies and lack of raids from the freefolk. It would have a ripple effect on the economy as a whole. 

The true north may not be the richest lands around but its little effort for maximum benefit sort of thing. The freefolk are badly organized, poorly armed and trained. You don't even need dragons to knock them off. You just build a strong army made up of soldiers from the Vale and the North and provide them with fleet support from the royal fleet and the greyjoys and voila the land will be conquered in no time

The Summer isles

Would be logistic nightmare however they are

a- extremely rich
b- they are divided in small kingdoms which may be turned against one another
c- its people aren't warlike

The Summer Isles could easily become the GOT version of the new world with its riches (gems and spices) changing the economy of Westeros forever. Im pretty confident that an organized army backed by a strong fleet can invade parts of the summer isles and blockading the rest of it making it impossible for them to bring in reinforcements. 

The free cities

Will probably be the most difficult of challenges. However careful diplomacy can turn them one against the other. If the Dothraki can bring fear to them imagine what an organized Westerosi army financed by the Lannister, Tyells and the Summer isles can do 

 

 

Lands beyond the Wall:

• While it is true that these lands do have a certain amount of wealth, I doubt that it would be enough to justify a full-scale invasion.
• Wood is not in scarce supply at the moment, although maybe in another century or so whoever's in charge will start looking beyond the Wall (assuming the Others haven't killed everyone by then!).
• Thenn is considered ridiculously far north even by other wildlings, so you can imagine how a southern army would find it.
• Some of the exotic species you mention are thought to be mythical, and all of them are too rare to make a trade in them sustainable or profitable.
• Learning from the elder races is a possibility, but once again they are thought to be legendary, and besides are too rare and reclusive.
• It's implausible that all the free folk could be wiped out by a southern army. A genocide might 'break their power for a generation', but there will always be more, and they will only hate the south more because of it.
• The North may become richer, but this doesn't take into account the expense incurred in the original campaign, which the North presumably would have to bear the brunt of.
• As for my main point here, the lands beyond the Wall are far too inhospitable to support any large group of people, such as an army, for any length of time. Mance had to keep his army on the move to stop it withering away from lack of provisions, and his army was composed of people accustomed to the climate! No lord would want to be granted a remote, poor piece of land miles from anywhere at all, with snows all year and in all seasons that put the ones at Winterfell (which Robert hated so) to shame.

The Summer Isles:

• The Summer Isles may be rich and divided, but I have to disagree about the people not being warlike. Although they have never acted in aggression, history has proved that they are formidable when fighting for their lives and homes. I'm sure that all the warring (ritualistic, day-long wars by the way) would unite when faced with an outside threat.
• You cannot blockade islands the size of the Summer Isles, especially when those islands have one of the strongest fleets in the world. Any army invading them would be at risk from guerilla attack from the jungles which cover almost every inch of the islands. And those goldenheart bows can pierce steel plate...

The Free Cities:

I think there would be a great difference between sporadic, temporary incursions by the Dothraki which invariably result in giving them a box of coins and a few slaves, and a Westerosi army bent on conquest. I have no doubt that after some initial success, the rest of the Free Cities would realise the balance of power was tipping away from them, and unite in mutual defence. The Free Cities are generally very wealthy and well armed, and would probably be more than a match for Westeros if united.

[All-Seeing Aye]

I agree that the only real way to prevent the impending invasion is to somehow kill off their dragons.  Whether that's through specialized weaponry or covert assassination, I have no idea.  We know from the Storming of the Dragonpit that people can indeed kill dragons more easily when they're confined, but three fully-grown dragons in the air are something else entirely.

[devilish]

a) ??? Numbers are obviously an advantage if you have it, but not essential. Terrain, tactics and flexibility are by far more important in Guerilla warfare. Unpredictability and the element of surprise is far more valuable in defensive war. So your mind the North isn't as warlike as Afghan 10 year olds? They seem pretty tough to me. Oh, and burning everything around him like some people would have Aegon do would quickly make everyone willing to become warlike.

Haiti was the most valuable real estate in the new world under french brutal control. Slave rebellion lead by L'Overture broke out into a savage and bloody war between Haitian tried of oppression and Major European imperial powers such as Napoleonic France, Britian and Spain as well as guest staring the USA. Haiti won. If you have the determination to resist you will.

A combination of terrain unsuitable for standard warfare, a leaders genius (a lot of the powers mentions joined just to stop the "inferior" black general puting their "superior" white generals to the sword), a determined people and their enemies requiring long supply lines is why Haiti could resist Half the world and win independence as the first REAL free Republic of the Americas. Read up on it its a spectacular piece of history routinely ignored by the West for obvious reasons. 

Back to ASOIAF. If you commit to Guerilla warfare you can resit the overwhelming force of any nation. 

B ) There is a difference between fighting for vengeance and fighting for your way of life. Do you think the Northern lords are irrational idiots incapable of comprehending what is at stake if they arent willing to sacrifice for the cause? Threatening to not assist your teenage overlord in fulfilling his revenge fantasy and Betraying your nation during a defensive war are nothing alike. Plus you dont even really NEED the individual lords, men willing to die for their country and king will suffice. Remember its Guerilla war not pitched batte, small bands of warriors working independently and in tandem depending on the situation is what is required. What the North did in the situation they face in the books cannot be used to predict how an independent Northern Kingdom would act when asked to engage in asymmetrical warfare.

Dorne is also supposed to be filled with hot blooded, impulsive people and lords yet they recognise that in order to win a defensive war they needed to fight smart. These are the people that wanted to take on the 160,000 troop strong Tyrell-Lannister alliance with 11,000 spearmen in an offensive war for god sake!  Dorne isnt and has never been as united as The North, were the Kings of Winter rein supreme. 

C) Any Stark that claims the lordship of Winterfell while Torrhen is resisting an invasion is by definition a traitor that has committed high treason. No, Aegon 1 wouldn't have a winner he would have an usurper, the North wouldn't rally around such a man. 

As long as Torrhen is alive no Stark or any other house can claim overlordship of the North.

 

 

a- No its not and the reason is pretty simple ie lack of wars. Afghanistan is a country who had been tormented by war for generations. The North had lived in peace for most of its life and when it was at war, a substantial number of people weren't called for it due to logistics issue. The Starks are largely benevolent and fair leaders who do not start wars or expect small folk to participate in them for Lulz. The North biggest strength its own weakness. Its isolated which means if a person can attack certain regions at the same time than it will take ages for the King to be able to organize an army to be able to do something about. Having said that that requires alot of troops something Aegon the conqueror had at that point. Guerilla warfare would be the only solution to turn such weakness to strength. However as said I cant see the Northern Lords abandoning their own people to be butchered by foreign rulers. Its not their cup of tea.

 

b- yes they are. We're talking here about people who lived in a vast land filled with trees and never thought of the idea of building a fleet which could defend them from the Greyjoys and open trade routes to Essos. Lords who decided that a boy with a 20k army and no allies could be King of the North and it had never crossed their minds that it was probably a bright idea to restore Moat Cailin which was an impregnable fortress that could isolate the North from the rest. These people were lead by the Starks whom I absolutely adore but who are probably the most stupid people in Westeros. Brandon went to KL with a small force to challenge the crown prince, his father decided to follow him up and Ned who was supposed to be brightest of the lot went to Cersei to confess his great secret and inviting her to flee (to where?). Do you think that these short sighted honourable fools can start a guerilla warfare in their own land? I much doubted

c- The Dornish are hot tempered but they aren't stupid. If they were stupid than they would have refused to bend the knee to King Robert. They would have joined the war from day 1 and they wouldn't plan to make alliances with the Targs first. Also unlike the North Dorne aren't attached to their territory. The Northern Lords make sure they even judge the least of citizens themselves

If  a Stark appears and claim the North than most of the North will follow him. 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

a) ??? Numbers are obviously an advantage if you have it, but not essential. Terrain, tactics and flexibility are by far more important in Guerilla warfare. Unpredictability and the element of surprise is far more valuable in defensive war. So your mind the North isn't as warlike as Afghan 10 year olds? They seem pretty tough to me. Oh, and burning everything around him like some people would have Aegon do would quickly make everyone willing to become warlike.

Haiti was the most valuable real estate in the new world under french brutal control. Slave rebellion lead by L'Overture broke out into a savage and bloody war between Haitian tried of oppression and Major European imperial powers such as Napoleonic France, Britian and Spain as well as guest staring the USA. Haiti won. If you have the determination to resist you will.

A combination of terrain unsuitable for standard warfare, a leaders genius (a lot of the powers mentions joined just to stop the "inferior" black general puting their "superior" white generals to the sword), a determined people and their enemies requiring long supply lines is why Haiti could resist Half the world and win independence as the first REAL free Republic of the Americas. Read up on it its a spectacular piece of history routinely ignored by the West for obvious reasons. 

 

Uh if by guest starring, you mean we gave the french colonists asylum, I suppose that's accurate. AP US History was about 12 years ago for me, but I did well enough in it to remember we didn't do a damn thing to Haiti outside of maybe an embargo. If the US had sided with the French, then Haiti would not have won and the US wouldn't have gotten the Lousiana Purchase

[devilish]

Lands beyond the Wall:

• While it is true that these lands do have a certain amount of wealth, I doubt that it would be enough to justify a full-scale invasion.
• Wood is not in scarce supply at the moment, although maybe in another century or so whoever's in charge will start looking beyond the Wall (assuming the Others haven't killed everyone by then!).
• Thenn is considered ridiculously far north even by other wildlings, so you can imagine how a southern army would find it.
• Some of the exotic species you mention are thought to be mythical, and all of them are too rare to make a trade in them sustainable or profitable.
• Learning from the elder races is a possibility, but once again they are thought to be legendary, and besides are too rare and reclusive.
• It's implausible that all the free folk could be wiped out by a southern army. A genocide might 'break their power for a generation', but there will always be more, and they will only hate the south more because of it.
• The North may become richer, but this doesn't take into account the expense incurred in the original campaign, which the North presumably would have to bear the brunt of.
• As for my main point here, the lands beyond the Wall are far too inhospitable to support any large group of people, such as an army, for any length of time. Mance had to keep his army on the move to stop it withering away from lack of provisions, and his army was composed of people accustomed to the climate! No lord would want to be granted a remote, poor piece of land miles from anywhere at all, with snows all year and in all seasons that put the ones at Winterfell (which Robert hated so) to shame.

The Summer Isles:

• The Summer Isles may be rich and divided, but I have to disagree about the people not being warlike. Although they have never acted in aggression, history has proved that they are formidable when fighting for their lives and homes. I'm sure that all the warring (ritualistic, day-long wars by the way) would unite when faced with an outside threat.
• You cannot blockade islands the size of the Summer Isles, especially when those islands have one of the strongest fleets in the world. Any army invading them would be at risk from guerilla attack from the jungles which cover almost every inch of the islands. And those goldenheart bows can pierce steel plate...

The Free Cities:

I think there would be a great difference between sporadic, temporary incursions by the Dothraki which invariably result in giving them a box of coins and a few slaves, and a Westerosi army bent on conquest. I have no doubt that after some initial success, the rest of the Free Cities would realise the balance of power was tipping away from them, and unite in mutual defence. The Free Cities are generally very wealthy and well armed, and would probably be more than a match for Westeros if united.

 

The Land beyond the North

 

a- you have to take in consideration not just the wealth of the land beyond the wall but the generated wealth that a safer North would have. The gift could be given to Lords royal to the crown and the North wont suffer from constant excursions of the freefolk. Its also an opportunity for the new Southern King to build some sort of relationship with the isolated Lord of the North. The king sitting on the iron throne is not some foreigner who wants them to bend the knee but someone willing to bleed blood for them. Also the King will have land to give to the Greyjoys. Solid land will not only give the Greyjoys an alternative to their reaving ways + earn their gratitude but would also mean a potential second front if the North decide to rebel. 

b- The Freefolk are too poorly armed and organized to fight an organized army made up of the Vale, the Greyjoys, and the Starks forces. They will be no match against such army/fleet. In due time they will notice the benefits of not being isolated anytime. Trade and wealth will pour in, the much dreaded wall will not be an obstacle anymore and people will learn new modern ways including ideas on how to build towns and probably sow land. Basically it would happen what happened nearly everywhere within the Roman empire. The oppressed will be Romanised in 1-2 generations 

c- people will die but in the bigger scheme of things the iron throne will benefit of it. The new King would have done something in his first generation that no Stark king was ever able/cared to do ie eliminating the freefolk's threat. 

d- Supply lines will be kept open by land (Night's watch and Starks) and by sea (Greyjoys). The army will be composed mostly by Vale and North soldiers. All of them are used to cold.

The Summer isles

The Summer isles are divided and their soldiers had barely ever experienced war. Im not saying it would be easy but a well organized army can make it. It only need to conquer the islands bit by bit in a number of expeditions. Those who do escape in the jungle will probably not make it due to the savagery of the tribes living there + the plagues

The free cities

Once again it will require great diplomacy and planning. As you said if Westeros dares gulping all the land at one go than the free cities will  unite against the common enemy. However if it carefully plans its steps using every excuse to strike (siding in favor of exiled kings/lords/magisters who are then turned into puppets once the land is invaded) and wait for their chance than it can be made

[The Dovakhiin]

Uh if by guest starring, you mean we gave the french colonists asylum, I suppose that's accurate. AP US History was about 12 years ago for me, but I did well enough in it to remember we didn't do a damn thing to Haiti outside of maybe an embargo. If the US had sided with the French, then Haiti would not have won and the US wouldn't have gotten the Lousiana Purchase

Do you know how damaging an embargo is to a besieged people? If the US loved freedom so much they should have supported not isolated Haiti. A lot of your countrymen wanted to get directly involved, even your president was concerned about how this would affect "the land of liberty's" slave population.

XD why are we talking about world history on ASOIAF forum? 

[The Dovakhiin]

 

a- No its not and the reason is pretty simple ie lack of wars. Afghanistan is a country who had been tormented by war for generations. The North had lived in peace for most of its life and when it was at war, a substantial number of people weren't called for it due to logistics issue. The Starks are largely benevolent and fair leaders who do not start wars or expect small folk to participate in them for Lulz. The North biggest strength its own weakness. Its isolated which means if a person can attack certain regions at the same time than it will take ages for the King to be able to organize an army to be able to do something about. Having said that that requires alot of troops something Aegon the conqueror had at that point. Guerilla warfare would be the only solution to turn such weakness to strength. However as said I cant see the Northern Lords abandoning their own people to be butchered by foreign rulers. Its not their cup of tea.

 

b- yes they are. We're talking here about people who lived in a vast land filled with trees and never thought of the idea of building a fleet which could defend them from the Greyjoys and open trade routes to Essos. Lords who decided that a boy with a 20k army and no allies could be King of the North and it had never crossed their minds that it was probably a bright idea to restore Moat Cailin which was an impregnable fortress that could isolate the North from the rest. These people were lead by the Starks whom I absolutely adore but who are probably the most stupid people in Westeros. Brandon went to KL with a small force to challenge the crown prince, his father decided to follow him up and Ned who was supposed to be brightest of the lot went to Cersei to confess his great secret and inviting her to flee (to where?). Do you think that these short sighted honourable fools can start a guerilla warfare in their own land? I much doubted

c- The Dornish are hot tempered but they aren't stupid. If they were stupid than they would have refused to bend the knee to King Robert. They would have joined the war from day 1 and they wouldn't plan to make alliances with the Targs first. Also unlike the North Dorne aren't attached to their territory. The Northern Lords make sure they even judge the least of citizens themselves

If  a Stark appears and claim the North than most of the North will follow him. 

 

 

a) You dont have to be hardened warriors to stage a guerilla war. I have used Vietnam and Haiti as examples of successful defensive wars, farmers, fishermen and slave labourers against THE most powerful military forces of their times.

Starks are Savages mate. Before Aegon's conquest  (which is the time period in this scenario) the Starks were known as Winter's Kings, not a title that leads you to imagine cuddly bedtime story princes. I mean doesn't the name give it away? Stark? Look up the word it not a synonym for sweet and pretty. The Stark you imagine (in book) are those raised by a Strong willed Tully mother and a father raised by Lord Arryn. If you want a more accurate depiction (imo) of what a Stark King would be like at Roose Bolton, a true throwback. Come on the Stark Kings we know about had nicknames such as Ice eyes and Hungry Wolf! XD 

Aegon would be a fool to butcher the farmers he will rely on for food! XD So if he is still sane he wouldn't do that imo, almost no benefits to this action but a lot of terrible consequences. He could afford to do so in Dorne where he doesn't need the locals for much but not in the vast expanses of the North which is a logistical nightmare for would be conquerors. Plus this strategy never works anywhere a resistance is already in full swing. If you mean genocide then he is a monster not a king. 

You seem to hold the intelligence of the Northmen in low regard. Maybe one or two lords would be fool enough to attack the targs is pitched battle AFTER the field of fire, but the enitre nobility?!?!? You must think these people are retarded. Anyway Northern lords are shown to be capable of underhand tactics and plotting in the books. In fact they are so good at deception that Tylose had to commit a Westerosi war crime to beat them! Manderly's frey pie? The Northmen are a vicious people made hard be routine Ice ages that devastate their lands with a Religion that has very little rules on morality. Even if they were a peaceful people ( which the books say otherwise) in real history normal people adapt to the situation and do anything necessary to survive. 

b ) Agreed, that the KITN moment was the biggest own goal outside of handing over an army within your city wall in book. But again what you talk about is a North that has been under Southern Overlordship and at peace (not invaded) for 300 years, of course they are softer with poorly defended boarders compared to the Kingdom of the North of old. So i dont see how that has a bearing on organising a resistance to invasion. In a Guerilla war the emphasis is on small bands of warriors harassing enemies  and not on the commaders as much. So what if the greatjon type lord attacks the Targs with his men? You still have autonomous regiments fighting smart, plus that would show the wisedom of your strategy if the ones who defy you get BBQ'd.

C) So you DO think Northmen are retarded!! XD LOL! Might as well start calling them sub-human at this stage... 

How does the way the North administer justice lead you to believe they are tactically inept? You wouldn't be saving anyone be rushing into a hopeless battle You're definitely going to lose. To the contrary Northmen are shown to sacrifice troops for greater strategic advantage in the long run to Tywin's annoyance. 

D) just...no. If a King is fighting off an invasion anyone pronounced by the invaders as his replacement is seen by all universally as a traitor and usurper. Him getting hold of a Stark WHILST fighting a Stark King wouldn't help unless said king is hated enough for people to want rid of him by any means necessary. Nobody respects interlopers. Kings and Lords require respect. He would be seen as nothing more  than a puppet for the oppessors. Nobody wants to be ruled by a puppet. Think of the Nazis puppet state in France during WW2 or the modern Afghan government. They lack legitimacy in the eyes of a sizable portion of their people simply for being established by foreigners.

Can you give reasons for why the North could resist without insulting their intelligence? 

 

[I Remain Unvanquished]

Swear fealty to Aegon as soon as possible with the stipulation that I get to keep my title and I get a spot on his council. I have no feasable way to kill giant flying fire breathing lizards and don't wish to sacrifice thousands of my men for a futile cause. This way I still have a symbolic, but essentially meaningless, title and get to influence the governing of the realm. 

Declare war against King Harren the Black, the man is a menace to everyone anyway. Once Harren falls, block the entrance to the Vale and use my fleet to blockade Gulltown until the end of the war. 

After the conquest, manipulate the Targs in favor of my realm and try to get close to Quean Rhaenys. If feasible, have King Aegon and Quean Visenya assassinated, marry Quean Rhaenys and put our son on the Iron Throne. 

[Lion of the West]

You've missed my point about supply lines. In order to keep his army well supplied across the North Aegon will require long supply lines. Long supply lines are easy to ambush along the vast distances they would need to cover. This would deprive your armies of food whilst supplying your enemies.

This tactics was used by EVERY resistance force dealing with the overwhelming numbers and might of the Nazi armies ,with better supply lines and air support than Aegon could manage. Having large numbers of troops distributed across a large area is a major disadvantage if you cant keep them supplied. Even if you could get supplies North you would still need to transport it to those strongholds you took.

Using Guerilla tactics a small force can overwhelm large forces. If the Northern resistance operates in small regiments no bigger than a few hundred men then they CAN be at more than one place at a time. Making dragon support and huge number almost useless. There will be no pitched battles just ambushes. 

Russia vs Barborossa (spell?), Russia vs Napoleon, Russia vs Hitler, Vietnam vs France, Vietnam vs USA, Ethiopia vs Italy, Somali warlords vs the AU, Taliban vs the world, Belarusian Jews vs Nazis, Haiti vs Imperial France, so why is it bad fantasy to imagine resistance to Aegon? Pick up a history book. Modern armies have more "dragons" than Aegon ever did yet Iraq and Afghanistan are still not under US control and has cost the US over a trillion dollars to fight.

You speak of the armies of the South's numbers as if they are inexhaustible.  To dominate the North you would need troops in all the major holdings and maybe some minor ones, makimg your army prone to ambush, raids and starvation, as well as incapable of helping itself. Oh, and didn't he do that in Dorne too? Dorne which is smaller and closer to food sources? Did it work? 

The Northmen don't need to destroy their society to win. Just harvest before the war and take the grain supplies usually found in castle garrisons and go guerilla. When you enemies get there they would need their own supply lines or piss of the peasants and steal from them. The Northern peasantry will support it's fighting men with provisions there after in hopes of defeating the invader. You know like in REAL life. What makes you think that the Northmen are less patriotic and fiercely independent than the Dornish? 

Aegon cant control the north or ANY region without subduing the nobility. Like in the faith uprisings but with stronger enemies and in a more hostile environment. As long as the North is willing to fight he cannot win. Winter is coming, and with it the doom of Aegon's armies in far away places.

Like the Vikings found out against Alfred if the people want to keep fighting it doesn't matter if you control the buildings. So go ahead Aegon spread your armies thin from moat Callin to the Wall and White Harbor to the Wolf's wood. And then supply it reliably with food and reinforcements. Goodluck.

1. Unless the armies of the South forage as they have shown is a very effective tactic in War of the Five Kings

2. For one thing, the Nazis never had a significant overwhelming number, outside of certain video games that is, and the irregular resistence you seem to hint at was never more than an annoyance for them. I can't recall a single place where such resistance drove out the Nazis where conventional armies did not force the Nazis to withdraw first. I don't want to discredit the courage and efforts of this resistance of their importance in gathering information for conventional armies, but I seriously doubt they were the fighting force that broke the Wehrmacht. That honor goes to Allied air power, US industries and conventional Soviet ground forces.

As for transporting supplies, most of the Northern fortresses lies by waterways and the North has no ships. Thus I see no problem with either shipping supplies there or by using the countryside to grow food locally.

3. If the Northern forces are down to a few hundred their combat effectiveness will be seriously impaired and they will have about no chance in hell to break the Southern troops from the various strongholds they have captured. Strongholds are built to be held, not taken with ease.

4. We'll have a look at your scenarios.

Soviet vs Barbarossa - was not won by resistance but by supply lines, winter and a lack of German panzer troops to reach all of the necessary objectives. "Resistance" had a limited importance in this and conventional defenses only, to my knowledge, succeeded because of the above mentioned factors.

Russia vs Napoleon - was won because winter arrives, and given the short campaigning season of Russia, while in the North there would be several years in a row for a campaign to take place. Without a winter but instead three or four years of summer in a row, Russia would have fared a great deal worse.

Stalin vs Hitler - the only reason as to why Stalin could win was thanks to US industries and air power. Stalin could turn his entire industry over to war production and his entire population as well because everything else, and much resources for war production, was delivered to him by the US. Without that the Soviet industry would also have needed to produce such things like everything to keep the civilian sector running or even just trucks for transportation and thus I find it highely unlikely that Stalin would have been able to keep up with Hitler's war machine.While Hitler's industries on the other hand had to produce everything that the Germans, and many allies, needed while at the same time being bombed into the dust by a growing air armada. Where is the Westeros US who will keep the North flooting?

Vietnamn vs France - don't know enough to comment

Vietnamn vs US - Once again its powerful outsiders who provides the supplies to keep the war flowing, in this case the Chinese and Soviets. What superpowers will supply the North and so keep them in action?

Ethopia vs Italy - didn't Italy win that war?

Somali warlords vs AU - don't know enough to comment

Taliban vs the world - the Taliban got ousted and we've yet to see how it will develop, I seriously however doubt that their success is down to their fighting prowess. Not to mention that against the Soviets, the Talibans had US backing because without it, they would have been toasted. And I believe another poster has commented on Afghanistan's special characteristics as a country.

Belorussian Jews vs Nazies - I'm afraid I sersiously doubt they had a greater impact on the war although I don't doubt their courage and valor

Haiti vs France - don't know enough to comment

Also pick up a book on social history and you'll see how the perceptions and norms of war have changed. The kind of brutality that build the old colonial empires are not acceptable today, and thank your chosen deity for that, and so the strength of the great powers can't be used fully, unlike in Westeros. Just look at how the nuclear bomb was designed to turn Germany into a giant crater while twenty or thirty years later it wasn't ok at all with bombing the North Vietnamese despise their support for the Viet Cong while the same kind of bombing strategy was perfectly acceptable to be used on Germany and Japan in the 1940s.

The issue with Dorne of course is that is a major plothole that the author for some reason felt required to make work. Kind of like how the Andals overtook Westeros culturally by being beaten at pretty much every turn outside the Vale of Arryn. So essentially, yes, holding the major holds and from there control the surrounding countryside is what worked historically and unless the Northmen gets a divine gift from the author, it would work pretty well.

What makes me think that the Northmen are less patriotic is the fact that they haven't shown themselves to be as nationalistic as the Dornish, or that we've been given any great leads as to their ironclad loyalty. I could absolutely be wrong but as far as I can tell, I'd like some proof but its absolutely possible the Iron Throne will have to deal with them the hard way.

I'm sure you'd like to think that the North is somehow invulnerible. I'll give you a hint. Harren thought that his seat was invulnerable as well, but that didn't save him, now did it?

Thanks for the good luck wish. Between dragons, overwhelming numbers and a couple of great minds like Aegon, Visenya, Rhaenys and Orys, the Northmen are pretty much toasted. But then again, Torrehen knew this, so he wisely bent the knee.

 

 

[devilish]

a) You dont have to be hardened warriors to stage a guerilla war. I have used Vietnam and Haiti as examples of successful defensive wars, farmers, fishermen and slave labourers against THE most powerful military forces of their times.

Starks are Savages mate. Before Aegon's conquest  (which is the time period in this scenario) the Starks were known as Winter's Kings, not a title that leads you to imagine cuddly bedtime story princes. I mean doesn't the name give it away? Stark? Look up the word it not a synonym for sweet and pretty. The Stark you imagine (in book) are those raised by a Strong willed Tully mother and a father raised by Lord Arryn. If you want a more accurate depiction (imo) of what a Stark King would be like at Roose Bolton, a true throwback. Come on the Stark Kings we know about had nicknames such as Ice eyes and Hungry Wolf! XD 

Aegon would be a fool to butcher the farmers he will rely on for food! XD So if he is still sane he wouldn't do that imo, almost no benefits to this action but a lot of terrible consequences. He could afford to do so in Dorne where he doesn't need the locals for much but not in the vast expanses of the North which is a logistical nightmare for would be conquerors. Plus this strategy never works anywhere a resistance is already in full swing. If you mean genocide then he is a monster not a king. 

You seem to hold the intelligence of the Northmen in low regard. Maybe one or two lords would be fool enough to attack the targs is pitched battle AFTER the field of fire, but the enitre nobility?!?!? You must think these people are retarded. Anyway Northern lords are shown to be capable of underhand tactics and plotting in the books. In fact they are so good at deception that Tylose had to commit a Westerosi war crime to beat them! Manderly's frey pie? The Northmen are a vicious people made hard be routine Ice ages that devastate their lands with a Religion that has very little rules on morality. Even if they were a peaceful people ( which the books say otherwise) in real history normal people adapt to the situation and do anything necessary to survive. 

b ) Agreed, that the KITN moment was the biggest own goal outside of handing over an army within your city wall in book. But again what you talk about is a North that has been under Southern Overlordship and at peace (not invaded) for 300 years, of course they are softer with poorly defended boarders compared to the Kingdom of the North of old. So i dont see how that has a bearing on organising a resistance to invasion. In a Guerilla war the emphasis is on small bands of warriors harassing enemies  and not on the commaders as much. So what if the greatjon type lord attacks the Targs with his men? You still have autonomous regiments fighting smart, plus that would show the wisedom of your strategy if the ones who defy you get BBQ'd.

C) So you DO think Northmen are retarded!! XD LOL! Might as well start calling them sub-human at this stage... 

How does the way the North administer justice lead you to believe they are tactically inept? You wouldn't be saving anyone be rushing into a hopeless battle You're definitely going to lose. To the contrary Northmen are shown to sacrifice troops for greater strategic advantage in the long run to Tywin's annoyance. 

D) just...no. If a King is fighting off an invasion anyone pronounced by the invaders as his replacement is seen by all universally as a traitor and usurper. Him getting hold of a Stark WHILST fighting a Stark King wouldn't help unless said king is hated enough for people to want rid of him by any means necessary. Nobody respects interlopers. Kings and Lords require respect. He would be seen as nothing more  than a puppet for the oppessors. Nobody wants to be ruled by a puppet. Think of the Nazis puppet state in France during WW2 or the modern Afghan government. They lack legitimacy in the eyes of a sizable portion of their people simply for being established by foreigners.

Can you give reasons for why the North could resist without insulting their intelligence? 

 

I am not questioning the Starks or the Northern Lords courage but their brain power, specifically what they would do for honour. Do you think that they will abandon their own people to the hands of the Southern Lords just to engage in  guerilla warfare? Lord Greyjon was ready to pull his forces out of Robb's army and go home just because he wasn't allowed to lead the van. 

And yes I do question the Northern Lord's intelligence. As said we're talking about people who never question the wisdom of not having a fleet. People who never thought it was a good idea to repair Moat Cailin which is an impregnable fortress that divide the North and the South. Brandon thought he could barge in KL and challenge the crown prince and get away with it. Ned thought the same with Cersei while Rodrick Cassel did the same at Torrhen square (ie he left Winterfell unguarded to defend Torrhen Square). The North is ruled by complacency, the somehow arrogant idea that non Northern people are somehow too weak to dare challenging them let alone beat them in battle. If anyone dares touching one of them (including their land) than caution is thrown out of the window and the North will go head on, against these pesky 'soldiers born in summer' without any thoughts of first sealing alliances outside the North first. That may have been the case prior to Aegon's arrival but things had changed. There are 6 kingdoms now (or 5 if the Tullys take the North's side) and that's quite an overwhelming force to beat. 

Kindly note that when Torrhen Stark met Aegon Targeryan in battle he was leading 30k men while the latter had 45k. It was meant to be a conventional war and in foreign land (the Trident). Under such overwhelming force its only fair to bend the knee

 

[devilish]

This wouldn't work at least not in the way you describe it. First Torrhen had already marched the might of the North down past the Neck. If they had tried anything stupid we would have the Field of Fire: Part II the Burning Rivers.

Granted say the fell back to the Neck and defended it. Dragons can fly over it and ships can bypass it. Also the dragons could set the Moat ablaze and there wouldn't be much of a fight.

The guerilla war you describe would work for a time but it would fail as soon as Winter arose. Winter isn't as big a deal for the Dornish and they could last for long periods away from their castles.  Come winter the Northern's don't have that option. They have to whole up in strongholds like Winterfell, hence the winter city. Once the Northern forces are stuck in their castles the dragons can burn them out one by one. I'm sure the dragons don't like the snow but they can melt it.

Granted launching a invasion of the North in winter would be suicide but sending dragons to burn the strongholds one by one would kill off most of the resistance of the North. Sure some could flee but they wouldn't last long without food and shelter in the harsh Northern winter.

Lastly say the whole North managed to go into hiding in secret places with food for the Winter the dragons would still burn all the castles and when spring would come those castles would be burned and not too useful. Then the combined might of the Targaryens and the other Kingdoms would steamroll the remaining Northerns.

Guerilla warfare wouldn't work because the North won't use it. The Lords will not allow their own people to fall prey to these Southern Lords while they 'cowardly hide and wait for the opportune time to strike'. Seriously guys but do you really expect great tactics out of the likes of Ned 'I tell everything to Cersei' Stark, The Greatjon 'I prefer to confess treason in front of the King and his 20k army rather than follow a Glover' and Rodrick 'I leave the heir to the Northern crown unguarded to put the Greyjoys in Torrhen apartments' Cassell to suddenly become military geniuses?

We're talking here of a nation who see no reason in building a fleet or even repair the most important fort in the North just because 'no one dare crossing their path'. They were lead by idiots who dare challenging the crown prince in frigging KL. Everything is rotated around honour, including persecuting smallfolk which is done by the Lord himself. Guerilla warfare is the antithesis of honour as Lords will have to abandon their own people to the hands of their enemy and engage in hit and run skirmishes. Can you imagine the Greatjon doing that?

[Maester of Valyria]

 

The Land beyond the North

 

a- you have to take in consideration not just the wealth of the land beyond the wall but the generated wealth that a safer North would have. The gift could be given to Lords royal to the crown and the North wont suffer from constant excursions of the freefolk. Its also an opportunity for the new Southern King to build some sort of relationship with the isolated Lord of the North. The king sitting on the iron throne is not some foreigner who wants them to bend the knee but someone willing to bleed blood for them. Also the King will have land to give to the Greyjoys. Solid land will not only give the Greyjoys an alternative to their reaving ways + earn their gratitude but would also mean a potential second front if the North decide to rebel. 

b- The Freefolk are too poorly armed and organized to fight an organized army made up of the Vale, the Greyjoys, and the Starks forces. They will be no match against such army/fleet. In due time they will notice the benefits of not being isolated anytime. Trade and wealth will pour in, the much dreaded wall will not be an obstacle anymore and people will learn new modern ways including ideas on how to build towns and probably sow land. Basically it would happen what happened nearly everywhere within the Roman empire. The oppressed will be Romanised in 1-2 generations 

c- people will die but in the bigger scheme of things the iron throne will benefit of it. The new King would have done something in his first generation that no Stark king was ever able/cared to do ie eliminating the freefolk's threat. 

d- Supply lines will be kept open by land (Night's watch and Starks) and by sea (Greyjoys). The army will be composed mostly by Vale and North soldiers. All of them are used to cold.

The Summer isles

The Summer isles are divided and their soldiers had barely ever experienced war. Im not saying it would be easy but a well organized army can make it. It only need to conquer the islands bit by bit in a number of expeditions. Those who do escape in the jungle will probably not make it due to the savagery of the tribes living there + the plagues

The free cities

Once again it will require great diplomacy and planning. As you said if Westeros dares gulping all the land at one go than the free cities will  unite against the common enemy. However if it carefully plans its steps using every excuse to strike (siding in favor of exiled kings/lords/magisters who are then turned into puppets once the land is invaded) and wait for their chance than it can be made

Beyond the Wall:

a) The North is not a rich land anyway compared to the southern regions, and the area that suffers from wildling attacks is (given it's the part furthest north) is likely to be the poorest anyway. I believe that such an effort may actually damage relations between the North and the Crown, as the effort involved would be disastrous for the North's economy. What land would the king give the Greyjoys: parts of the North? That would be unpopular with the Starks. Beyond the Wall? Why would the Greyjoys want such poor, cold lands miles from the sea?

b ) The wildlings, despite their seeming lack of unity, are capable of uniting behind a single leader for that leader's lifetime, as every King Beyond the Wall has shown. They would doubtless do this again in response to a southern army, and probably in far greater numbers than that army. There is also the threat of guerilla warfare. They have repeatedly shown no interest or recognition of the supposed benefits of joining up with the rest of Westeros. No one will want to trade with such a remote, backwards and poor region, and centuries of semi-nomadic living cannot be thrust aside with no consequences at all. And as I recall the Romans never tried to conquer a huge area of snow, ice, and fearsome warrior-tribes (they took one look at Scotland, which only had the tribes, and built Hadrian's Wall).

c) Lords don't care if the long-term benefits will outweigh the risks (debatable in itself): they only care about the impact on them and their legacy. They don't want to be remembered as the one who sent thousands of men to fight and die in a wasteland, all for a venture they wouldn't see any benefit from. They won't be willing to gamble with those stakes. And why should the lords back up the King's crazy idea? Remember when Aerys II proposed his new Wall?

d) How would the supply lines stretch that far by land? The distances alone make it impossible, to say nothing of enemy action or bad weather. By sea is just as bad: one storm and the whole food supply is at the bottom of the Bay of Ice. You would then have to carry the supplies from the coast to wherever your army was last seen. And even Northerners aren't used to temperatures in 'the real north'. Remember how cold Jon got when he was with the Halfhand? The Valemen would be even worse. Once again, why would the Northerners spend all this effort to fufil a pointless royal command?

Summer Isles

It doesn't matter how divided the Isles are, they will still unite in the face of a common threat. Conquering the islands piecemeal would be next to impossible, as you'd have to leave troops everywhere you went to guard against inevitable rebellions. That's not even considering the difficulties of landing the army in the first place. The Summer Islanders are also in a position to launch retaliatory attacks on Westeros. The Isles may be rich but I doubt they're worth the risk and expense.

Also, I think you may be confusing the Summer Isles with Sothoryos? We are never given any indication that the jungles on the Isles are dangerous in the ways you describe: if anything they would be an asset to a guerilla fighting force (think Vietnam: a vastly superior fighting force defeated by jungle traps and ambushes).

The Free Cities

The Free Cities are clever enough to realise when they're being threatened. As soon as Westeros conquered one of them the others would rise up in arms. Westeros might be able to make some headway by doing as you suggest, but only if they acted with at least one of the other Free Cities, and I doubt very much that they'd be allowed to occupy the city. Also, why would Westeros attack their biggest trade partners?

Now, the Stepstones...you could take the Stepstones.

[Shierak Qiya]

 Thank goodness the Arryns are safe from you. This is lunacy. You would trade your freedom for  a gilded chain?

There is very little social progress to be found in colonization only potential technological progress ( which is minimal here in the case of the Tagaryens who only brought weapons of war; dragons and shared little with their subjects (Valyrian steel weapons pre-dated house Targaryen's subjugation of Westeros.)

 Vercingetorix/Boudiccea>Petain/Quisling

There is very little social progress in anarchy and constant fighting.