Azor Ahai a Dayne?

[LmL]

But wasn't Dawn smithed from a comet? This fallen comet was not the common black stone, but a white stone. I also believe Starfall is built from Pale Stone/White Stone.  Hence one of the towers is named 'Pale Stone Sword'. (White Stone sword). So Dawn looks totally different/opposite of the black sword of  Azor Ahai.

And speaking of the black sword, what ever happened to it?

Also, isn't it strange that someone sees a fallen white-stone meteor and their first reaction is" Oh a white stone! Let's make a sword from it's heart!".

 

Yes, you've zeroed in on the problem with the meteor swords. If Azor Ahai is the Bloodstone Emperor as some of us think, then he surely made his sword from the black stone. All the research I have done about the moon meteors corroborates this.

It also shows that Azor Ahai and the forging of Lightbringer was the cause of the Long Night. Actually I realized that it's right there in the Lightbringer legend, without any help from anywhere else - when AA stabbed NN, the moon cracked.  AA cracked the moon when he forged Lightbringer. In other words - Azor Ahai broke the moon. Lightbringer broke the moon. Not the good guy! Heroes don't stab their wives and break moons, I am pretty damn sure. Anyway, this means Lightbringer can essentially be thought of as the "Sword of the Evening." This sword slays the seasons and brings winter and darkness, just as the moon meteors did, as opposed to the Sword of the Morning, Dawn, which brings the day and the spring. They are opposites, Lightbringer and Dawn. Lightbringer the black sword and Dawn the white sword.  

The etymology of "Eosphorus / Phosphorus" is instructive here. "Lucifer" is the Latin word for Morningstar (Venus during he half of its cycle when it is appears in the morning) and of course also translates to "light-bringer," "son of the morning," "dawn-bringer," etc. The thing about phosphorus the element is that it is a white stone that burns and arrived on earth in a comet. Phosphorus is also a key element in the first chemical reactions that led to human life, and again scientists think it first got to earth via comet. So, a burning white comet sword called Dawn in a story which also has a burning sword called Lightbringer... George is clearly aware of these Morningstar translations, and is using them. All of this would indicate that Dawn might be made from a piece of the comet itself, and not a moon meteor. That would explain why it was not black and burnt like the moon meteors. 

A variation here is that Dawn is from the heart of the destroyed moon while the black meteors come from the outer crust. I prefer Dawn = comet stone, because of the phosphorus ideas which make a lot of sense, but you know, "heart of a fallen star" and all. 

But then, I ask myself, "Are we really looking at TWO meteor swords? What about the earth?" We've got these meteors invading, how do we fight them? With more meteor mojo? What about the idea of earth having a champion to defend against the space invaders, so to speak? Consider this possibility. If the Daynes descend from the GEotD, then that means that their ancestors migrated from the east to Westeros. It's possible that the falling star-turned-sword story came with them, that they brought the Azor Ahai meteor sword with them and it only became later associated with Dawn. This sort of myth transplantation does of course happen in the real world. So, maybe Dawn is not the comet sword, AA's black sword was. Dawn is something else, but the legends were mixed up. 

So what else would Dawn be? Well, it might be the original Ice of House Stark, due to its icy milkglass imagery and the fact that it's a huge white sword, making "Ice" a very practical name for it. So maybe it's made from ice magic, the bones of an Other, maybe it was the sword of the King of Winter. Remember how Ned, playing the King of Winter archetypal role, brings Dawn to Starfall and leaves it there after the Tower of Joy? Perhaps that's an echo of a past event, when the Stark bright the white sword south and left it at Starfall, presumably for safe keeping. Maybe it's important that the Others or Nights King doesn't get a hold of it. 

Another idea which I like: petrified weirwoods are also made from "pale stone." And isn't there an awful lot about wooden swords and tree swords in the books? Odin has a sword made from a tree, and we know George is using a lot of Odin ideas, especially with greenseers and weirwoods. This means the earth produced a champion to fight the foreign invaders, which makes a lot of sense to me. 

On History of Westeros House Dayne part 2 we are going to explore all these possibilities and present the evidence for each. 

[StarkofWinterfell]

Azor Ahai = Azure Emperor

[The scourge of westeros]

The Great Empire of Dawn is not likely to play a part in the current story.  It's something Martin put in there just to enrich the history of his world.  If history dating back to just a few centuries is unreliable, think how unreliable all the tales of the Great Empire of Dawn is.  They were likely just primitive people eating bananas and walking around in their birthday suits.

I think the theory is an amazing conclusion, although you are right, there is very little mention of the GEOTD in the main series of books. I would think that being on book 5 at this point that if the GEOTD were to be central to the plot or wars to come, that it would have at least been mentioned more by now. 

[Falcon2908]

I think the theory is an amazing conclusion, although you are right, there is very little mention of the GEOTD in the main series of books. I would think that being on book 5 at this point that if the GEOTD were to be central to the plot or wars to come, that it would have at least been mentioned more by now. 

There are mentions such as the Gemstone Emperor of the GEOtD Dany sees in her visions in the house of the Undying. Notably this:

“Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.” GoT 802

Check this theory out by Durran: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/126019-daenerys-is-the-amethyst-empress-reborn/

Also, this by Betha: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/129109-a-god-king-by-any-other-name-the-secret-history-of-three-gemstone-emperors/

[The scourge of westeros]

 

There are mentions such as the Gemstone Emperor of the GEOtD Dany sees in her visions in the house of the Undying. Notably this:

Check this theory out by Durran: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/126019-daenerys-is-the-amethyst-empress-reborn/

Also, this by Betha: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/129109-a-god-king-by-any-other-name-the-secret-history-of-three-gemstone-emperors/

I can dig it, I'm gonna take a look

[LmL]

I think the theory is an amazing conclusion, although you are right, there is very little mention of the GEOTD in the main series of books. I would think that being on book 5 at this point that if the GEOTD were to be central to the plot or wars to come, that it would have at least been mentioned more by now. 

What is important is the idea of Dawn Age dragonlords from Asshai, which we have been hearing about since book one. The idea that they are from the GEotD is a great theory, but it's not the important part. Pre-Valyrian dragonlords from Asshai, whatever their name was - that's the thing. Hell, they probably did not call themselves "the Great Empire of the Dawn," likely they had some word which has been lost. That's just how they are remembered in Yi Tish legend. The GEotD clues in TWOIAF just confirm for us the the gemstone eyed ghosts in Dany's vision are her ancestors - but not Valyrians, dragonlords who came before Valyria. And they can only have come from Asshai. 

TWOIAF also gives us the info about the fused black stone fortress on Battle Isle, which is the smoking gun evidence that dragonlords came to Westeros and built an outpost there in the Dawn Age, before valyria existed. 

[LmL]

 

There are mentions such as the Gemstone Emperor of the GEOtD Dany sees in her visions in the house of the Undying. Notably this:

Check this theory out by Durran: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/126019-daenerys-is-the-amethyst-empress-reborn/

Also, this by Betha: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/129109-a-god-king-by-any-other-name-the-secret-history-of-three-gemstone-emperors/

Those are both good ones

[hiemal]

Bah

[hiemal]

My own take on it can so far be summarized thusly:

The BSE forges Lightbringer from the black stone (either an oily blackstone of the Deep Ones power-from-beyond or one of Cybele Magna Mater-esque Mithraistic corrupted  CoTF/earth power) causing the long night, then heads to Tarth to become the Evenstar and sire the Last Hero. The LH, Galladon, heads to Dorne, to Starfall and forges Dawn; thus establishing the myth of the Perfect Knight- Morne being a blending of the name of Dorne and the concept of Dawn.

Thence, onwards to the North?

[hiemal]

Also: is anyone else getting a grail-esque vibe from Dawn? The sword from the stone (and the stone from without) both speak of Arthurian legend as much as Mithraism/Sol Invictus. Dawn could combine Excalibur and the grail in one artifact. The other bits of grail lore are frustrating without a grail- Fisher kings and fisher queens, a fool knight, impure knights, etc. 

 

[LmL]

Also: is anyone else getting a grail-esque vibe from Dawn? The sword from the stone (and the stone from without) both speak of Arthurian legend as much as Mithraism/Sol Invictus. Dawn could combine Excalibur and the grail in one artifact. The other bits of grail lore are frustrating without a grail- Fisher kings and fisher queens, a fool knight, impure knights, etc. 

 

Yeah absolutely, I see that. I've been wondering Dawn doesn't have some magic ability that doesn't involve swinging it like a sword. A huge white glass candle, perhaps?

[hiemal]

Yeah absolutely, I see that. I've been wondering Dawn doesn't have some magic ability that doesn't involve swinging it like a sword. A huge white glass candle, perhaps?

More like a mobile weirwood.

[Durran Durrandon]

What's so complicated? BSE/AA forged LB from the black stone that fell from the sky, which caused the comet to  destroy the moon, causing the Long Night and showering the planet with black stones, which he used to forge Lightbringer, which he needed to end the Long Night. It's a perfect Doctor Who episode.

Okay,I'm joking, but seriously, it's only a problem if you insist on deriving a narrative from it, rather than seeing it as mythic truth informing the reader of the magical symbolism through out the story. 

Yes, there was a moon destroyed by a comet. Yes there was a BSE and AE, and a civil war that ended the GEOTD. Yes this leads to the Long Night. The actual narrative is intended to be ambiguous, mythic. 

 

[hiemal]

That's a good point, but it's hard to know where myth ends and narrative begins and trying to pick the significant from the scenery amuses me between books.

[Durran Durrandon]

That's a good point, but it's hard to know where myth ends and narrative begins and trying to pick the significant from the scenery amuses me between books.

Truth.

[Minuteman]

I'm of the belief that the Night's Queen=The Great Other=the Amethyst Empress and the differing tales are different interpretations of the same event. If this is true then the best analog to the Bloodstone Emperor would seem to be R'hllor. My take is that the Blood Betrayal and the NK/NQ tale are the same story as handed down by different civilizations. My belief is that the Bloodstone Emperor/R'hllor had his reign and from him are descended the sorcerer prince families of Valyria, of which the Targs are one. TPTWP is a very old prophecy and I suspect that the it has to do with who will ascend that long vacant throne to the GEotD.  I am inclined to believe that Azor Ahai and Bran the Builder are the same people and AA will not be born again (only Mel seems to think it a reincarnation tale). TPTWP is the one promised to ascend the long vacant throne of the GEotD and would be a descendant of the AE as rightful ruler, not the BE as the usurper, which would rule out Dany. It could be a Stark (I think them descended from the child(ren) of the NK/NQ) or someone not yet seen. But not a Targ.

[Durran Durrandon]

So, while we are spit balling, there are at least three families who are likely descended from the Dawn Emperors: the Targaryans, the Daynes, and the Hightowers. It's easy to forget the Hightowers, but they were living in the black carved out stone of Battle Isle when the First Men arrived. Sure they claim descendence from Garth Greenhands, but through his daughter who married a Hightower king.

The Hightowers founded the Citadell, coopted the Andals and their faith, invited in Aegon the Conqueror, s and likely orchested the death of dragons. 

[hiemal]

And the current Lord Hightower and the Mad Maid are sitting in their tower on Battle Isle, which holds who knows what secrets from the GEotD era.

[Falcon2908]

So, while we are spit balling, there are at least three families who are likely descended from the Dawn Emperors: the Targaryans, the Daynes, and the Hightowers. It's easy to forget the Hightowers, but they were living in the black carved out stone of Battle Isle when the First Men arrived. Sure they claim descendence from Garth Greenhands, but through his daughter who married a Hightower king.

The Hightowers founded the Citadell, coopted the Andals and their faith, invited in Aegon the Conqueror, s and likely orchested the death of dragons. 

Also, Alerie Hightower has been described as having silver hair. This reminds me of those Gem Stone emperors in Dany's dream with silver hair.

[Durran Durrandon]

Also, Alerie Hightower has been described as having silver hair. This reminds me of those Gem Stone emperors in Dany's dream with silver hair.

At age 37 . . . I'm still looking for physical descriptions of other Hightowers.