Ashara Dayne

[purple-eyes]

so then support the tyrells. Every master scheme by the Martells has or will involve a targ. The Arriane -myrcella plot was so messy I can't even include it.

Tyrell does not have a claim to the throne. even Tyrell themselves did not try to claim the throne. 

If you mean to simply ally them to fight with lannister, well, reach and dorne were enemies for thousands of years. 

And even that happens, they still need a figure head who has a claim to be the leader, which can only be a targ. not stannis or renly. 

the plot of myrcella proved that Martell may not be very loyal to targ, they wanted to avenge lannister. They can accept Mycella baratheon (daughter of cersei and grandaughter of tywin) for the marriage (in fact hostage) and they are ready to use her as a pawn to challenge cersei and tommen. 

they main purpose is to deal with Lannister, not to support Targ. 

it is just targ is the opposite side of lannister and baratheon. 

 

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Look, even if you don't think the Dornish liberal attitude towards bastards extends to noblewomen's bastards, there are logically two possibilities here.

 

If Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhall, either:

1) She was ok with having a baby--figuring Ned would marry her, or she'd be fine as a single mom, or whatever--so she didn't take moon tea & had a baby, in that case everyone would know about the baby, dead or alive--and they don't (Edric Dayne doesn't even mention the baby, just that Ashara loved Ned), so we can rule this out.

or

2) She didn't want a baby, for whatever reason--social shame or just not being ready to be a mom--so she took moon tea. Therefore no baby.

 

...therefore, Ashara did not have a baby. Baby rumors are just that, rumors, spread for reasons currently unknown but worth thinking about.

 

The point about Lollys and moon tea is a good one. But I think in her case no one even considered her being pregnant (odds of conceiving from a violent gang rape are quite small; odds of ever being able to conceive again after a violent gang rape are quite small, honestly Lollys is lucky to be alive) and by the time they realized the pregnancy was too advanced for moon tea. Cercei and Asha (and probably Arianne and Nymeria) have been using moon tea with 100% success for many years, it seems very reliable. (This is totally unrealistic for an herbal birth control, but hey, it's fantasy.)

[Ser Leftwich]

Look, even if you don't think the Dornish liberal attitude towards bastards extends to noblewomen's bastards, there are logically two possibilities here.

 

If Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhall, either:

1) She was ok with having a baby--figuring Ned would marry her, or she'd be fine as a single mom, or whatever--so she didn't take moon tea & had a baby, in that case everyone would know about the baby, dead or alive--and they don't (Edric Dayne doesn't even mention the baby, just that Ashara loved Ned), so we can rule this out.

or

2) She didn't want a baby, for whatever reason--social shame or just not being ready to be a mom--so she took moon tea. Therefore no baby.

 

...therefore, Ashara did not have a baby. Baby rumors are just that, rumors, spread for reasons currently unknown but worth thinking about.

That she was either OK with having a baby or not is a reasonable dichotomy, but there is absolutely nothing that confirms it one way or the other.

Edric Dayne mentions that his sister Allyria says that Ashara and Ned loved each other AND that Ned had a bastard (Jon) with a servant of House Dayne, all years before Edric was born. That is all pretty fishy at best and completely inconclusive.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Yes, it's extremely fishy! :-)

My only point is that Ashara would not have had a hidden baby. We don't have to confirm the dichotomy one way or the other. Both possible options lead to the conclusion "no baby."

Which begs the question, what's the point of all those rumors?

[WhitewolfStark]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first topic, sorry if this has been discussed multiple times, but I read the books a long time ago and only now I'm re-reading them.

Along with Rhaegar T. and Lyanna S., there is a character whose "mystery" I think it's quite interesting. Ashara Dayne was beautiful, one of the young companions of Princess Elia at court. She conquered Barristan's heart, but he was too shy to declare for her (and I can't see why he would, since he was a KG and couldn't get married).

So, what do you think happened to her?

1) Who dishonored her at the tourney at Harrenhal?

Considering that the Daynes are Dornish, more accepting of bastards, and a tiny bit more sexually liberated... I think the term dishonored here is solely from Barry's rose-colored POV.

2) If she got pregnant, did she leave court? But how does Barristan know she had a stillborn daughter? Gossip?

IMO, she and Elia switched babies, most likely while Elia was recovering from the birth and without Elia's knowledge and at the pressure of Varys. It would fit the blatantly obvious Les Rois Maudits (aka The Accursed Kings) parallel George is all but jumping up and down and pointing a neon sign at us for, where pretty much the same thing happens:

Queen of France nearly dies giving birth to the King of France after her husband died not long after getting her pregnant; she's bedridden for months afterwards while a wetnurse is found. About this time, a young noble girl who got knocked up after having a secret wedding that no witnesses saw & therefore no one recognizes as valid, gives birth in the same monastery and called forth to be a wetnurse to the young sickly King while his mother is out of commission. The young noblewoman is pressured by outside political movers and shakers to switch her baby with the King of France when rumors of the infant King's godmother wishing to poison him surface. The infant King nearly dies on his own while having a seizure which emboldens the godmother to actually try for it when before she was content to not poison the infant King. The young noblewoman's child is killed in the King's place, and the young noblewoman is broken and devastated, dying not too long thereafter.

I've talked before about how George has pimped the Les Rois Maudits book series and got it re-translated and back in publication in English--even going so far as to write the introduction to the book series and calling it the "original game of thrones".

So yeah, Ashara had a healthy son, who was killed in place of Aegon is what I'm putting my money down for. When Ned told Ashara about "Prince Aegon" having his head smashed in, Ashara was devastated. The only other way that it could be more tragic is if the baby pretending to be Prince Aegon actually WAS Ned's.

Stillborn baby most likely is rumor purposely spread to deflect the fact that Ashara made it out with Elia's actual child.

3) Do you think the person who "dishonored" her was the father of her baby? Could it be Brandon Stark?

Honestly, the way Barry talks, it almost sounds like he felt he could have stopped it and yet couldn't have stopped it, which to me makes me think that perhaps it was Aerys. Brandon feels like a red herring. And I have the feeling that Brandon spurned helping her, while Ned actually was of help in some fashion.

4) If it was Brandon Stark, do you think maybe the "abduction" of Lyanna, right before Brandon was going to get married to Catelyn, has something to do with it?

No.

5) Arthur Dayne was a KG and one of the few people who could be called Rhaegar's friend. Do you think they would have tried to "repair" the situation?

What do you mean by "repair" the situation? Given my answer, he might have been aware of the baby switch with regards to Aegon IMO.

6) Do you think she might be alive, since her body has never been found?

Possible, but also equally possible that she killed herself. If she's still alive I think she's a far more cynical and bitter woman.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

Considering that the Daynes are Dornish, more accepting of bastards, and a tiny bit more sexually liberated... I think the term dishonored here is solely from Barry's rose-colored POV.

IMO, she and Elia switched babies, most likely while Elia was recovering from the birth and without Elia's knowledge and at the pressure of Varys. It would fit the blatantly obvious Les Rois Maudits (aka The Accursed Kings) parallel George is all but jumping up and down and pointing a neon sign at us for, where pretty much the same thing happens:

Queen of France nearly dies giving birth to the King of France after her husband died not long after getting her pregnant; she's bedridden for months afterwards while a wetnurse is found. About this time, a young noble girl who got knocked up after having a secret wedding that no witnesses saw & therefore no one recognizes as valid, gives birth in the same monastery and called forth to be a wetnurse to the young sickly King while his mother is out of commission. The young noblewoman is pressured by outside political movers and shakers to switch her baby with the King of France when rumors of the infant King's godmother wishing to poison him surface. The infant King nearly dies on his own while having a seizure which emboldens the godmother to actually try for it when before she was content to not poison the infant King. The young noblewoman's child is killed in the King's place, and the young noblewoman is broken and devastated, dying not too long thereafter.

I've talked before about how George has pimped the Les Rois Maudits book series and got it re-translated and back in publication in English--even going so far as to write the introduction to the book series and calling it the "original game of thrones".

So yeah, Ashara had a healthy son, who was killed in place of Aegon is what I'm putting my money down for. When Ned told Ashara about "Prince Aegon" having his head smashed in, Ashara was devastated. The only other way that it could be more tragic is if the baby pretending to be Prince Aegon actually WAS Ned's.

Stillborn baby most likely is rumor purposely spread to deflect the fact that Ashara made it out with Elia's actual child.

Honestly, the way Barry talks, it almost sounds like he felt he could have stopped it and yet couldn't have stopped it, which to me makes me think that perhaps it was Aerys. Brandon feels like a red herring. And I have the feeling that Brandon spurned helping her, while Ned actually was of help in some fashion.

No.

What do you mean by "repair" the situation? Given my answer, he might have been aware of the baby switch with regards to Aegon IMO.

Possible, but also equally possible that she killed herself. If she's still alive I think she's a far more cynical and bitter woman.

Sorry, by repair I meant something to make Brandon rethink the situation, I don't know, didn't express myself right.

Do you have a link to your thread about Les Rois Maudits? I'd love to read your thoughts.

From the book:

"But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that."

It seems that Selmy knows who the man was, or perhaps he thinks he knows but is mistaken? But how can be haunted by this if he couldn't have prevented Ashara's fate? And what does that mean, look to him instead of Stark? Look like a man? But he had just said that he was sworn to celibacy...

[Dragonsmurf]

1. Eddard, and they were in love. Eddard wanted to marry her but then war came and everything.

2. She left court to hide her pregnancy, but rumors went out anyway. Everybody assumed the child was stillborn since there is no bastard at Starfall.

3. Yes I think Eddard was the father, and the child is a famous bastard who took the black.

[lojzelote]

in addition to the unprecedented levels of douchebaggery expressed by Brandon in this instance, it would also have to take insane stupidity on Asharas part, which I am not a fan of at all.  The dude is engaged.  Him being heir to a LP does not improve but rather reduces his eligibility in the eyes of someone like Ashara, since obviously he's engaged to the daughter of a LP and isn't going to marry her under any circumstances. 

Ned is a much better mark if Ashara wants to "marry up" as he's a second son, unattached and closer to her age.  So we are left once again with "girls like fire" from Barristan as the only evidence.  Brandon is, like, just such a bad boy donchaknow??

edit: as for the "confirmation" that B takes anyone he wants that's Sour grapes talking from Barbary (just like Barristan and the dishonor thing).  He probably had a few lovers like many did, but why that means he will basically be a complete asshole to Ned I have no idea.  Assuming he wanted to screw Ashara He wouldn't first introduce his tongue tied younger bro to her to dance unless he's a complete sadistic monster.  In which case then maybe he just raped her.

Brandon had previously commited a series of acts of douchebaggery against his betrothed with Barbrey Ryswell, therefore I don't see why he would hesitate to do the same with Ashara Dayne. As for Ned, there's no evidence he was madly in love with Ashara and considered marrying her, only that he thought she was kinda cute and danced with her once. Besides, it is unlikely his politically-minded father would allow him to marry a girl from Dorne - someone from the Vale or the North would be much better suited.

As for what Ashara was like and liked, we can't say, because the woman is a total non-character. All we know about her that she was considered beautiful, had dark hair and purple eyes, and served as one of Elia's ladies. Zero character traits. But yeah, the author is certainly trying to sell the idea that girls fall for "fiery" men at the first glance, while where "muddy" men are concerned, they need time, which makes Brandon the better suspect.

I think the supposed Ned/Ashara tragical romance is only a diversion from R+L=J (intended for Westeros and readership alike). I mean, almost nobody bought that Jon's mystery mother is Wylla the wetnurse or Nobody the fisherman's daughter, with whom Ned allegedly had a one-night fling and moved on, OTOH the suggestion that Ned's first love was one of the most beautiful noblewomen of her generation hailing from an old and honorable house gave most people at least a pause and many of them fell into the trap.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1)      Who dishonored her at the tourney at Harrenhal?

~No one. It was consensual.

 

2)      If she got pregnant, did she leave court? But how does Barristan know she had a stillborn daughter? Gossip?

~She left because she was pregnant by an enemy and Barri just heard the gossips. I believe that her daughter Allyria was alive.

 

3)      Do you think the person who "dishonored" her was the father of her baby? Could it be Brandon Stark?

~It was consensual sex with Ned who was the father.

 

4)      If it was Brandon Stark, do you think maybe the "abduction" of Lyanna, right before Brandon was going to get married to Catelyn, has something to do with it?

~I believe that the father and the one who had sex with was Ned. Even if it was Brandon I don’t understand what you mean.

 

5)      Arthur Dayne was a KG and one of the few people who could be called Rhaegar's friend. Do you think they would have tried to "repair" the situation?

~Why? So his sister  had sex with someone and then would take revenge on an innocent girl?

 

6)      Do you think she might be alive, since her body has never been found?

~I believe that is alive the same way Steffon and Cassana are alive.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Lojzelote,

theres nothing douchebaggery about having a lover before entering into an arranged marriage with someone you barely know, IMO, especially since their relationship predates the engagement. Clearly Barbary was upset because Brandon left her, because she wanted to marry him instead.  

OTOH introducing your shy little brother to the girl he seems to have a crush on for a dance and then banging her that night is pretty fucking brutal.  Especially if it was public enough that he'd know about it which it was if Brandon is the Stark Barry is talking about.

anyway while I like Ned + Ashara I think it's quite possible there was no lover or pregnancy at all - it was all for the Jon coverup, and Barristan jumping to conclusions. 

[purple-eyes]

Lojzelote,

theres nothing douchebaggery about having a lover before entering into an arranged marriage with someone you barely know, IMO, especially since their relationship predates the engagement. Clearly Barbary was upset because Brandon left her, because she wanted to marry him instead.  

OTOH introducing your shy little brother to the girl he seems to have a crush on for a dance and then banging her that night is pretty fucking brutal.  Especially if it was public enough that he'd know about it which it was if Brandon is the Stark Barry is talking about.

anyway while I like Ned + Ashara I think it's quite possible there was no lover or pregnancy at all - it was all for the Jon coverup, and Barristan jumping to conclusions. 

I think it is kind of jerky to take lady Dustin as lover without intention to marry her. Noble lady is different from peasant girl. 

Brandon sort of ruined her like robert to delena, who was looked as soiled daughter and married a household knight. 

Of course lady Dustin married lord william, so maybe in her case william did not mind, but it is still supposed to be a bad thing. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think it is kind of jerky to take lady Dustin as lover without intention to marry her. Noble lady is different from peasant girl. 

Brandon sort of ruined her like robert to delena, who was looked as soiled daughter and married a household knight. 

Of course lady Dustin married lord william, so maybe in her case william did not mind, but it is still supposed to be a bad thing. 

It would be if he had ever said that he would married her. If she knew that there was no way of this marriage to happen, if there was she would had told that, and she knew what she was doing then it's her own decision to make.

[purple-eyes]

It would be if he had ever said that he would married her. If she knew that there was no way of this marriage to happen, if there was she would had told that, and she knew what she was doing then it's her own decision to marry.

yeah, you could say lady Dustin was sort of cheap to sleep with him or offer herself without a marriage, but if brandon is a honorable man, he should have married her before or soon after having sex, like robb, I guess. 

It is a quite high moral standard, I know, but it seems like for high born lady, guys are more disciplined. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

yeah, you could say lady Dustin was sort of cheap to sleep with him or offer herself without a marriage, but if brandon is a honorable man, he should have married her before or soon after having sex, like robb, I guess. 

It is a quite high moral standard, I know, but it seems like for high born lady, guys are more disciplined. 

I seriously cannot understan your logic. If both adults decided that it ws just sex then Brandon is to blame? So no matter what a woman wants the man has to act however he wants? What if he wanted to marry her and his father made him marry Cat?

[purple-eyes]

I seriously cannot understan your logic. If both adults decided that it ws just sex then Brandon is to blame? So no matter what a woman wants the man has to act however he wants? What if he wanted to marry her and his father made him marry Cat?

oh, I understand this. By current days, Surely it is fine. 

But in that world, virginity of high born lady seems to be a big deal. 

So if brandon is a very honorable man, he should not sleep with her unless he married her. 

You know, it is better to eat the snack after you paid. You could eat it before making payments, but it is not a very good thing to do. Who knows if your wallet will not be stolen? 

 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

oh, I understand this. By current days, Surely it is fine. 

But in that world, virginity of high born lady seems to be a big deal. 

So if brandon is a very honorable man, he should not sleep with her unless he married her. 

You know, it is better to eat the snack after you paid. You could eat it before making payments, but it is not a very good thing to do. Who knows if your wallet will not be stolen? 

I am sorry but I am calling bs on that. They were adults and as far as we know the both wanted it. By your logic Lady Dustin was not such a good Lady.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think it is kind of jerky to take lady Dustin as lover without intention to marry her. Noble lady is different from peasant girl. 

Brandon sort of ruined her like robert to delena, who was looked as soiled daughter and married a household knight. 

Of course lady Dustin married lord william, so maybe in her case william did not mind, but it is still supposed to be a bad thing. 

By the mores of the day it is a little sleazy perhaps, but if it was consensual and honest I see very little wrong with it.  Their relationship clearly was more than the one night stand type of thing that Robert engaged in pretty much willy-nilly, or that you're saying with Ashara.  He likely had real affection for her, even if he didn't intend to marry her, which we don't even know.

Maybe he did make promises to her he didn't intend to keep (which would be a little wrong) Maybe he made promises he did intend to keep, but then could not because of his Father (not that wrong).  Maybe there were no promises but Dustin hoped he'd choose her in time (not wrong at all). 

In any case Brandon did not go around randomly deflowering every highborn girl he could find - as far as we know only Dustin. 

ETA: anyway the argument is whether Brandon is enough of an asshole to do an emotionally damaging thing to his little brother, and someone using the affair with Dustin as an example of why he's an asshole.  None of the scenarios with Dustin approach this level of asshattery.

[Greymoon]

Ashara is Quaithe... Ran has been saying it for years, but now, I'm convinced of it as well...Or at least, I'm convinced that Arthur was not the only Dayne that had Rhaegar's confidences...

I think she and her brother believed in the prophecy of the PtwP; or they knew of the prophecy. (House Dayne is heavily associated to the AA prophecy, so I'm taking that as a hint....) When Aegon died, Ashara was confronted with the fact that Rhaegar had been wrong...This brutal realization and the loss of Arthur, drove her to despair and she threw herself off the Pale stone tower. BUT... With her survival, she found hope anew and turned her attention to Ashai, determined to find where Rhaegar had erred. 

15 years later, Dany hatched her Dragons, and Ashara, now going under the identity of Quaithe, approached her.

I found this interesting little tidbit: 

Ishara is a Hittite word and the name of a deity worshiped in Ebla (ancient Syria). The word means so much as “treaty, binding promise”...as a deity, Ishara is the personification of the goddess of oaths, goddess of omens.  She is at times identified as Ishtar, the love goddess, (Hurrian and Semitic tradition)....an alternative spelling is... ASHARA, . In the Hurrian pantheon, the goddess Ishara is associated to the underworld, and she is “mother of the Seven Stars”, the Sebitti, seven war gods of the underworld.

[purple-eyes]

I am sorry but I am calling bs on that. They were adults and as far as we know the both wanted it. By your logic Lady Dustin was not such a good Lady.

yeah, I know and I agree. 

But we are talking in that universe, not in our world. 

Noble women at that time are supposed to keep maidenhead for their wedding night, that is why they made a huge deal for Margarey and lysa and delena. 

To have sex with a man who is not your husband, is supposed to be a dishonorable thing for a maid to do, even it is for love. 

So technically, lady Dustin was not as good as a lady who refused to sleep with brandon before marriage and gave her virginity to William Dustin, her lawful husband on their wedding night, in the eyes of people in that world. 

Why is this so hard to understand? 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

yeah, I know and I agree. 

But we are talking in that universe, not in our world. 

Noble women at that time are supposed to keep maidenhead for their wedding night, that is why they made a huge deal for Margarey and lysa and delena. 

To have sex with a man who is not your husband, is supposed to be a dishonorable thing for a maid to do, even it is for love. 

So technically, lady Dustin was not as good as a lady who refused to sleep with brandon before marriage and gave her virginity to William Dustin, her lawful husband on their wedding night, in the eyes of people in that world. 

Why is this so hard to understand? 

Because we don't know him. He could easily wanted to marry her and his father made him marry Cat. What I am saying is that since it was consensual it is up to Lady Dustin to think about her future.