Hippocras Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 As for what the final forging is, I have two versions: 1. Ice (and the Stark family) is put back together again. Forever changed of course, but still. In this version, Widow's Wail must somehow find its way to the same places a Oathkeeper and an armourer with the right skills. 2a. The Targaryen swords join the story. Aegon is gifted Blackfyre (Illyrio had it) and needs to conceal it or merge it for political reasons. He merges Widow's Wail and Blackfyre, making a new sword to mark his victory (however brief). This creates a merged Ice+Fire sword....which logically it would follow would need to be the thing to kill Aegon. 2b. Or....Dark Sister shows up. Dark Sister and Oathkeeper are merged. Harder to guess the story that surrounds this merger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Hippocras said: As for what the final forging is, I have two versions: 1. Ice (and the Stark family) is put back together again. Forever changed of course, but still. In this version, Widow's Wail must somehow find its way to the same places a Oathkeeper and an armourer with the right skills. 2a. The Targaryen swords join the story. Aegon is gifted Blackfyre (Illyrio had it) and needs to conceal it or merge it for political reasons. He merges Widow's Wail and Blackfyre, making a new sword to mark his victory (however brief). This creates a merged Ice+Fire sword....which logically it would follow would need to be the thing to kill Aegon. 2b. Or....Dark Sister shows up. Dark Sister and Oathkeeper are merged. Harder to guess the story that surrounds this merger. 1 hour ago, Hippocras said: As for what the final forging is, I have two versions: 1. Ice (and the Stark family) is put back together again. Forever changed of course, but still. In this version, Widow's Wail must somehow find its way to the same places a Oathkeeper and an armourer with the right skills. 2a. The Targaryen swords join the story. Aegon is gifted Blackfyre (Illyrio had it) and needs to conceal it or merge it for political reasons. He merges Widow's Wail and Blackfyre, making a new sword to mark his victory (however brief). This creates a merged Ice+Fire sword....which logically it would follow would need to be the thing to kill Aegon. 2b. Or....Dark Sister shows up. Dark Sister and Oathkeeper are merged. Harder to guess the story that surrounds this merger. Well, with point 1, Gendry could be the armourer and he is with the Brotherhood and Oathkeeper seems to be currently heading that way. The rest could make sense too but how and when it could happen as you said is yet to early to tell as we don't have the clues (yet) that would lead to a more concrete explanation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Hippocras said: How and when Stoneheart dies is an interesting question. Some people think her path ends when she gets to avenge the red wedding. That looks like it will probably happen very soon at the Lannister/Frey wedding. Other people think she needs to live long enough to give Robb's crown to one of her children. That would take a while longer because none of them are anywhere close. I think your instinct that Oathkeeper might kill Stoneheart is a valid one...but possibly not in its current form, or possibly WW rather than Oathkeeper. If my theory of the swords is correct there is one final "forging" that needs to happen, and LS may be the sacrifice needed to "temper" that final sword (rather than either of the current ones). In this respect I think it is significant that Gendry, who was apprentice to the KL armorer who knows how to rework Valyrian steel, is with Stoneheart. He is in place to do this final "forging". Sorry, replied to your next post first (lol) went to the last page and yes, Gendry has to be a connection. Stoneheart has to die at some point because I really don't feel that is right to be alive and that sort of way and she is much harder than Cat and different but definitely she will avenge the Red Wedding, hopefully on people who had something to do with it, for neither Brienne nor Jaime did. Okay, fair enough Jaime pushed Bran down the window so I could accept that I suppose. Now this Lannister / Frey wedding, do you mean Lancel's or am I forgetting something? Only saying this because Lancel appears to have set his wife aside and taken religious vows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said: Sorry, replied to your next post first (lol) went to the last page and yes, Gendry has to be a connection. Stoneheart has to die at some point because I really don't feel that is right to be alive and that sort of way and she is much harder than Cat and different but definitely she will avenge the Red Wedding, hopefully on people who had something to do with it, for neither Brienne nor Jaime did. Okay, fair enough Jaime pushed Bran down the window so I could accept that I suppose. Now this Lannister / Frey wedding, do you mean Lancel's or am I forgetting something? Only saying this because Lancel appears to have set his wife aside and taken religious vows... No, Daven Lannister, current warden of the west. He is about to wed a Frey which was part of the deal in the Frey-Lannister pact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 double Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said: I am hoping that she survives too. I would be static if both her and Jaime did survive but I fear at least one of them won't, possibly neither... but yes I think so far we all appear in agreement in that Oathkeeper has an important role to play. Brienne is one of those characters that I have a sneaky suspicion GRRM is coddling. She's the big, ugly, female oath that (other then being part of Renlys Rainbow Guard), did not have a role in the story. But yet...GRRM gives her Oathbreaker, connects her with the Lannisters, and then makes her a main POV in AFFC. On top of that, it's hinted that she's Duncan the Tall's descendant. At one time I thought that Brienne's entire role in the story was just to be a catalyst for Jaime's "good guy" turnaround. But now, I'm not so sure. It's just really hard for me to imagine him killing off Duncan's descendant, as I have a feeling that he's setting Brienne up to be future short stories that revolve around the Dunk storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairGrowsBack Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 21 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said: Brienne is one of those characters that I have a sneaky suspicion GRRM is coddling. She's the big, ugly, female oath that (other then being part of Renlys Rainbow Guard), did not have a role in the story. But yet...GRRM gives her Oathbreaker, connects her with the Lannisters, and then makes her a main POV in AFFC. On top of that, it's hinted that she's Duncan the Tall's descendant. At one time I thought that Brienne's entire role in the story was just to be a catalyst for Jaime's "good guy" turnaround. But now, I'm not so sure. It's just really hard for me to imagine him killing off Duncan's descendant, as I have a feeling that he's setting Brienne up to be future short stories that revolve around the Dunk storyline. GRRM confirmed that Brienne's story still has (at least) some way to go. I think she's a good candidate for survival : she's been through a lot and I think killing her would make her entire story pointless. She'll keep getting greyer and greyer, without losing completely her innocence and inner goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePope Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 7 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said: GRRM confirmed that Brienne's story still has (at least) some way to go. I think she's a good candidate for survival : she's been through a lot and I think killing her would make her entire story pointless. She'll keep getting greyer and greyer, without losing completely her innocence and inner goodness. I to think she will make it. I think the fact that she put down the hound is a good indication that she is a survivor. I dont see her getting killed anytime soon. I could see her taking a side in "the final battle", between whoever is fighting it, and being an important role to the outcome of the entire series. The fact that she is so prominent in all the arcs at one point or another has to mean that she has significant importance. She has been all over Westeros and fought for basically everybody. And now she has a weapon suiting her ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 34 minutes ago, ThePope said: I to think she will make it. I think the fact that she put down the hound is a good indication that she is a survivor. I dont see her getting killed anytime soon. I could see her taking a side in "the final battle", between whoever is fighting it, and being an important role to the outcome of the entire series. The fact that she is so prominent in all the arcs at one point or another has to mean that she has significant importance. She has been all over Westeros and fought for basically everybody. And now she has a weapon suiting her ability. she never knowingly meets the Hound in the books. She certainly does not fight him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePope Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 19 hours ago, Hippocras said: she never knowingly meets the Hound in the books. She certainly does not fight him. Well then I stand corrected on that point. I thought the guy she fought in the village was the hound. I don't remember the exact details, but doesn't she fight a huge man in a village. I was just assuming that was the hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairGrowsBack Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 37 minutes ago, ThePope said: Well then I stand corrected on that point. I thought the guy she fought in the village was the hound. I don't remember the exact details, but doesn't she fight a huge man in a village. I was just assuming that was the hound. it's Rorge with the Hound's helmet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePope Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 44 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said: it's Rorge with the Hound's helmet Thanks for the clarification. I was under the assumption that is was the hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairGrowsBack Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 17 minutes ago, ThePope said: Thanks for the clarification. I was under the assumption that is was the hound. yeah it's intentionnally misleading. Pretty much everyone in the Riverlands believe it's him, because of the helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 On 1/16/2016 at 2:59 PM, Morgana Lannister said: Oathkeeper and the fact that it was forged from Ice. Do you guys think this is plot relevant? I have been wondering about this for a while, especially since the plot is now looking towards a confrontation between Brienne and Jaime versus UnCat and I just feel that the fact that it was made from Ned's sword is more than a coincidence. I sort of have a gut feeling, but not as yet terribly substantiated, that Oathkeeper will eventually kill UnCat for good. I don't expect it to happen straight away when Jaime and Brienne met with her next because I feel there is more to UnCat's arc yet to be revealed but it wouldn't surprise me either if one of her daughters wouldn't be found, at this stage not likely yet though, unless it is Sansa in TWOW and her being the person yielding it. Saying this because no matter how much we might all love our dearest departed family members I don't think many of us, once some grieving has taken place, would want them back like that. One of the reasons also that I am dreading how Jon is to come back... but I am digressing. Also, George said that Sansa will have a "controversial" chapter in TWOW. This is more likely to involve Littlefinger and probably an attempt to kill Robin or something of that ilk but still I wonder... Killing her own undead mother would also make her story a little parallel to Tyrion's although her motives would be more morally acceptable, although whether this is relevant or not would depend on who she is destined to end up with or this parallel would not make a great deal of sense. Also I have an incline that the Hound (still alive and not undead) will kill Robert Strong, another kinslaying parallel... What leads me to this is a little hard to explain convincingly as it all seems very far fetched and many things would have to come together for it to be the case. However, we know that you kill Whitewalkers with fire (or obsidian), now how does one kill undeads resulting from the Lord of Light (and fire)'s intervention? My guess is that, given the name of the series, is ice. Obviously not ice in the conventional way, like being at the Wall wouldn't kill them I don't think but a sword with a name like that??? I don't expect for a moment either that these two swords forged from one simply named Ice because I guess it had to have a name would be the only thing that can kill them, there has to be something else too but no idea what just yet, Still, I think this sword is likely to serve a purpose other than just being a token of friendship/love from Jaime to Brienne. Whatever your thoughts, guys, would love to hear them. Its funny how everyone is obsessing over the sword but everyone is forgetting the shield. Brienne wields the sword of Winterfell reforged (Stark Paternal heritage) and the shield of Harrenhal (Tully maternal heritage via the Whents). So Brienne seems connected to both of the Stark girls. Arya as the sword, via Needle, and her killing and Sansa as the shield via courtesy "as a ladies armor." I feel Brienne, Jaime, and Sansa will all end up together at Harrenhal at somepoint. Lord Baelish as well when he comes to claim his seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: Its funny how everyone is obsessing over the sword but everyone is forgetting the shield. Brienne wields the sword of Winterfell reforged (Stark Paternal heritage) and the shield of Harrenhal (Tully maternal heritage via the Whents). So Brienne seems connected to both of the Stark girls. Arya as the sword, via Needle, and her killing and Sansa as the shield via courtesy "as a ladies armor." I feel Brienne, Jaime, and Sansa will all end up together at Harrenhal at somepoint. Lord Baelish as well when he comes to claim his seat. Interesting. But I think LF is well aware that noone survives "claiming" Harrenhal. He is avoiding it on purpose. People talk about the swords because there is a myth/prophesy about a hero and a sword, with no mention anywhere of shields, armour, daggers, axes or whatever else. It could of course happen that those other things become important but there is no myth/prophesy leading in that direction. I personally think that LF will die either in the Vale (one of the castles is called Snow) or in the North, and he would get to the North by boat not over land, so nowhere near Harrenhal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Hippocras said: Interesting. But I think LF is well aware that noone survives "claiming" Harrenhal. He is avoiding it on purpose. People talk about the swords because there is a myth/prophesy about a hero and a sword, with no mention anywhere of shields, armour, daggers, axes or whatever else. It could of course happen that those other things become important but there is no myth/prophesy leading in that direction. I personally think that LF will die either in the Vale (one of the castles is called Snow) or in the North, and he would get to the North by boat not over land, so nowhere near Harrenhal. Perhaps but it makes little sense for Lord Baelish to head North now. Between the Stannis, Boltons, the GNC, the Wildlings and the Others only a fool would make any plans to deal with the North with Winter coming. No it makes far more sense for Baelish to be heading to the Riverlands. He will take the Lords of the Vale and help restore order to the Riverlands by helping to destroy the Frey's. This act would help consolidate his claim on the Riverlands and help gain the loyalty of the "hawkish" Vale Lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 21 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said: Perhaps but it makes little sense for Lord Baelish to head North now. Between the Stannis, Boltons, the GNC, the Wildlings and the Others only a fool would make any plans to deal with the North with Winter coming. No it makes far more sense for Baelish to be heading to the Riverlands. He will take the Lords of the Vale and help restore order to the Riverlands by helping to destroy the Frey's. This act would help consolidate his claim on the Riverlands and help gain the loyalty of the "hawkish" Vale Lords. The Riverlands are bad strategically because they can't be defended when going against the crown. I disagree the North makes no sense. He has Sansa. She (along with the food he is hoarding) is a key to the North and not so much the Riverlands. It could happen of course that both Edmure and his child die, at which point Sansa would be a contender in the Riverlands. But not until then. Littlefinger for now holds nominal power in the Riverlands ONLY via the current powers that be in KL. He has no actual authority on the ground. He can't hold the Riverlands. As for the North, winter is certainly here, but snow storms are not permanent. And one or the other of the Boltons or Stannis will prevail there. Whoever wins they will need food badly, and Littlefinger has been hoarding food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 On 26/01/2016 at 9:22 AM, Hippocras said: The Riverlands are bad strategically because they can't be defended when going against the crown. I disagree the North makes no sense. He has Sansa. She (along with the food he is hoarding) is a key to the North and not so much the Riverlands. It could happen of course that both Edmure and his child die, at which point Sansa would be a contender in the Riverlands. But not until then. Littlefinger for now holds nominal power in the Riverlands ONLY via the current powers that be in KL. He has no actual authority on the ground. He can't hold the Riverlands. As for the North, winter is certainly here, but snow storms are not permanent. And one or the other of the Boltons or Stannis will prevail there. Whoever wins they will need food badly, and Littlefinger has been hoarding food. I definitely think that this hoarding food business is going to be key to something but there are so many variables in the whole plot that I am losing my mind trying to even come up with a prediction lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyinblack Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Hippocras, I like the idea of LS death as what "tempers" Oathkeeper. The sword is now symbolic too of the wolf and the lion working together--or not Red rippling with black folded layers of Valyrian steel-like all my cooking knives!!! Widows Wail, I believe is with Loras at Dragonstone. Remember that Tommen sent him off with a sword--not good at finding text but will try. Can't wait to find out what is really happening there. Don't think Loras is finished The Tyrells will go over to Faegon---the Targs made them- Yet, they are battling the Ironborn too now. so many dangling ends to this story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The last person to have Dark Sister was Bloodraven and I bet he gives it to Bran and or Bran wields it though warging Hodor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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