Arthur+Lyanna=Jon

[Sly Wren]

48 minutes ago, LmL said:

I suspect dragons don't need bolo magic to hatch either - at least, not originally. All accounts of Targaryens before dragons died say they just kind of hatched.

The original germination of dragons--that story sounds like blood magic.

And yes, the dragons hatched in Westeros, far as we know. But. . . then they died out. Perhaps because the wrong magics/ processes were in place?

50 minutes ago, LmL said:

You love that quote, but you always forget this one:

HA! I do like that quote because it is so focused and specific and clear.

But I'm not forgetting Ghost's sudden affinity for Mel. I think it is telling--like he knows something's coming. Like the dragonglass cache. And bringing Jon the wight hand. And leading them to the wights. There's a change here we're supposed to note. Because something's coming.

But before this--we're clearly supposed to note that Ghost is different.

52 minutes ago, LmL said:

I think Martin simply wants to draw a contrast in one scene, and so he says their eyes are different, while here he wants to draw a similarity, and so they are similar. I don't think you can draw any sweeping conclusions based on these quotes.

Not sweeping. Specific. Until this moment, Jon saw the differences. Now--something's coming. With a knife. Like the wights. And the dragon glass. 

53 minutes ago, LmL said:

Ooof. Dragons opposed to stars? I think you're misreading there. Dragons ARE stars. Stars ARE dragons.

Not in Martinlandia. Dragons are comets. IRL, comets and stars are very different things (only stars produce their own light. Only stars are lasting, etc.)

But regardless of actual science, in Martinlandia, Stark direwolves sing to the stars. But Summer growls at the winged snake. And the fires from the winged snake "eat up the stars."

When Lewin says Summer and Shaggy are singing to the comet, Osha puts the kibosh on that. Insisting that the comet is nothing good. And that the wolves know things humans have forgotten. 

Drogon's wings "swallow the stars." 

And those quotes I gave above--Dany's happy and living and home and sex and joy and life cycles--all that is under "stars in a daylight sky" (Sword of the Morning, anyone?). Those stars smile down. But right before the dragon comes to set all that life on fire, the stars suddenly go. As the dragon approaches. And burns the whole world.

Dany thinks the magic of the stars will help her wake her sun-and-stars. Takes him out under starlight. But it fails. And all she hears is NOT stars. Only the darkness saying "never, never, never."

For the pyre, she doesn't look to the stars as guides, even though she knows the Dothraki see stars as riders. She looks for the comet. 

In Game alone, Martin's made a distinction between different kinds of light. And fire. Stars and comets are not the same in the books. They are not the same to the direwolves. And the stars are eaten, swallowed, and chased off by the dragons.

There's a difference.

1 hour ago, LmL said:

What the dragons bring is darkness - they blot out the sun as well. They cover the earth in shadow. They blot out everything. That's because the dragon meteors of the Qarthine tale (again, meteors = dragons) caused the Long Night, They blotted out the sun and moon and stars and covered the earth in shadow. But they are not opposed to stars.

Right--they blot out everything. All life and other light. Including stars. They are not the same as the stars. Dragons eat stars (according to Dany and Summer). Darkness and destruction. Vs. clarity and hope (at least to Dany and Jon).

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Starry Wisdom church was started by the Bloodstone Emperor, and Quaithe speaks through the stars and encourages Dany to remember that she is a dragon.  The Starry Wisdom church people also sing to the stars, just like the wolves

Yes--this is one of the things I've been thinking on: is the Cult of Starry Wisdom really . . . wise? The Light of the Seven seems to be a potential offshoot. But until we see more of that cult--we've seen a few of religions that claim wisdom but have plenty of corruption in them. So, is the Cult started by a murderer actually a corrupted version of the natural singing to stars? The natural song of the earth? Like the Bloodstone Emperor usurped power via corruption? And could I possibly ask a more unanswerable question?

As for Quaithe--she does speak to Dany through the stars. But she says the dragons knows who Dany is. But that Dany does not.  Dany longs for the sun-and-stars of Drogo--and can't get him back. So. . . . is Quaithe asking her to remember she's a dragon???? Dany already knows that. Or asking her to remember something else about herself?

Before the question, the stars take her flying, wheeling around and carefree. But. . . no ashes. No world in flame. No burning heat--either as pain or release. 

The stars are different from the dragons in her dreams.

1 hour ago, LmL said:

They may be important differences between dragons and wolves - obviously, there are - but they seem very much a parallel to each other.

Yes and no. The warg bond, yes. The potential for mass destruction? That seems more like the dragons parallel the Others. The Ice Dragon is as cold as the Others are supposed to be. Has a blue star eye. Brings cold along the Wall. Makes Jon thinks of Nan's old stories. Seems like we're being told the dragons and Others parallel. 

And both are at least somewhat tied to blood sacrifice. . . . so far.

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Why did George create this parallel? That is what I am interested in. What is your thought on this? Do you think this has anything to do with the repeated occurrence of earth and fire magic appearing together or interacting?

I think earth magic and heat and cold all work together in Martinlandia when they are part of cycles (like what Dany experiences before the dragon comes and sets the world on fire). The extremes--Others and Dragonfire, blood-sacrifice in place of normal life and death--that's what sets things wrong.

[Lady Dyanna]

On 4/4/2016 at 11:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

I think @WeaselPie brought up the theory in his Lyanna at TOJ isn't cannon thread.

Thanks. And thanks again for the link. I vaguely remember the thread and the surrounding controversy, but not much else.

 

On 4/4/2016 at 11:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

But it's the fight that engenders the rose petals blue as the eyes of death. And the blood. I really think the fight is important per se.

Or are you talking about the dream in the crypts where she's crying blood? 

I'm not thinking of any specific mention of the blue roses, but rather just their tie to Lyanna in general as far as their overall significance.

 

On 4/4/2016 at 11:40 PM, Sly Wren said:

As for rising from the crypts, I really think all of the Starks in there might be able to do just that. When called by the right person.

I'm thinking that all of the Stark men might have that ability, but maybe not all of the women. Lyanna might be special in that regard.

[Sly Wren]

On April 5, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I'm not thinking of any specific mention of the blue roses, but rather just their tie to Lyanna in general as far as their overall significance.

Fair point--the blue roses are very specific to her. And I do think that the moment is about Lyanna to Ned. Obviously. But the "blue as the eyes of death"--happening at the fight--Martin showed us such blue eyes in another fight in the Prologue. Seems like the fight and the Others are connected.

On April 5, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I'm thinking that all of the Stark men might have that ability, but maybe not all of the women. Lyanna might be special in that regard.

Why not the women? Any specific reason?

[Lady Dyanna]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Fair point--the blue roses are very specific to her. And I do think that the moment is about Lyanna to Ned. Obviously. But the "blue as the eyes of death"--happening at the fight--Martin showed us such blue eyes in another fight in the Prologue. Seems like the fight and the Others are connected.

But I guess the million dollar question then is how exactly are they linked?

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Why not the women? Any specific reason?

Two. First, we have yet to see a female ww. Second is the Stark tombs. Other than Lyanna, only the men have statues. And all of those statues hold iron swords and are guarded by Direwolves to keep the restless spirits at bay. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Why not the women? Any specific reason?

SEXISM!!!!!

(kidding).

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Two. First, we have yet to see a female ww. Second is the Stark tombs. Other than Lyanna, only the men have statues. And all of those statues hold iron swords and are guarded by Direwolves to keep the restless spirits at bay. 

I suppose anyone can be brought back, it's just that the male Starks were warriors. Like, if you need to bring back people to fight for you, would you bring back the ladies knowing few of them can fight? If I were to hunt a place were useful people to bring back are found, I'd go there because I'm sure all of them were strong warriors.

Little they know Lyanna would also return and kick everybody's asses /O/

[Sly Wren]

On April 10, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

But I guess the million dollar question then is how exactly are they linked?

I'm buying the "something is broken in that moment" more and more.

That these two men should NOT be fighting--Stark in Winterfell and Sword of the Morning.

The Bael Tale has a similar fight--a fight of kinslaying. Makes me wonder if it's a marker that Ned and Arthur are distant kin. After all, one of Ygritte's main arguments in telling the Bael Tale is to insist that she and Jon are kin.

At which point she continues to try to seduce him.

She has a strange notion of family reunions--but you take my point. I hope--the non-incest-oriented one.

On April 10, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Two. First, we have yet to see a female ww.

HA! Careful. @Voice might call you a blasphemer for this! But yes--I'm not convinced the woman the Night's King saw from on top of the Wall (really? That far down?) was an Other. Rather a priestess like Val.

On April 10, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Second is the Stark tombs. Other than Lyanna, only the men have statues. And all of those statues hold iron swords and are guarded by Direwolves to keep the restless spirits at bay. 

Yes--it does seem the men are called to fight. But they are all "born of woman"--even if Martin decides to go the Macbeth route. So. . . the women count, too.

On April 10, 2016 at 0:09 AM, JCRB's Honeypot said:

SEXISM!!!!!

(kidding).

What!!!!  In Westerosi culture!!!! Never!!!

On April 10, 2016 at 0:09 AM, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I suppose anyone can be brought back, it's just that the male Starks were warriors. Like, if you need to bring back people to fight for you, would you bring back the ladies knowing few of them can fight? If I were to hunt a place were useful people to bring back are found, I'd go there because I'm sure all of them were strong warriors.

Yes--and only men ever guarded the Wall regularly, it seems.

It will be interesting, though, to see if any of the women are called back.

[ice_iridium]

Hi Sly,

 

I strongly believe that your right about A+L=J.

Jon Snow is the next Sword of the Morning (aka Azor Ahai). With Dawn (Lightbringer), he will end the Long Night.

Maybe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna for his best friend. Maybe Lyanna cheated on Rhaegar with Arthur... As Guinevere did with Lancelot.

I try to encourage this theory on the french asoiaf community. But that's not easy. R+L=J theory as so many supporters...

 

Greetings from France 

[Sly Wren]

6 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

Hi Sly,

I strongly believe that your right about A+L=J.

Jon Snow is the next Sword of the Morning (aka Azor Ahai). With Dawn (Lightbringer), he will end the Long Night.

Welcome to the forums! 

And, in all fairness, though I think Arthur and Lyanna as Jon's parents fits the symbolism around Jon much better, I do still see that Rhaegar could be his father. But I'm doubting it more and more.

6 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

Maybe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna for his best friend. Maybe Lyanna cheated on Rhaegar with Arthur... As Guinevere did with Lancelot.

The Arthurian imagery around them is pretty heavy. 

I doubt Rhaegar would take Lyanna for Arthur--Rhaegar had a lot of goals, and messing up the kingdom just for Arthur's love life seems unlikely.

That said, I could very well see Arthur influencing Rhaegar to help him get Lyanna to safety if, for example, Lyanna was being used as political leverage by Aerys, or Tywin, or something else. 

6 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

I try to encourage this theory on the french asoiaf community. But that's not easy. R+L=J theory as so many supporters...

HA! So, R+L=J is a universal language?

Half the fun of the books is all the theories they engender. And it took me a while to see Arthur as a possibility. 

6 hours ago, ice_iridium said:

Greetings from France 

Welcome again!