The missing pieces regarding Robert's Rebellion and the disapearence of Lyanna

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

 

I would like to look at stringing together a group of theories that build the “missing pieces” of the important events that lead to, not only Robert’s Rebellion, but also result in the current happenings that are transpiring currently in the series.

I am well aware that individually there are many threads here that go in to detail all of the different theories presented, but this will go into the building of the current events like a sort of math equation. EX. If this is true, then this leads to this which also must be true, etc.…

For this I will need to go chronologically

 

The Stark Marriages (The Political Climate)

 

First, we know it is somewhat uncommon for the Starks, and most Northerners in general, to marry into the Kingdoms south of the Neck.

Going back the nine generations in the Stark family there were very few instances of marrying from the South. A few Blackwoods (Riverlands), one Rogers (Stormlands- Ned’s mother’s sister’s marriage) and a Royce (The Vale- Ned’s Great Great Great Grandmother).

Rickard Stark seemed to have a very different opinion the North’s typical semi-isolationist way of doing things. Not only does he send Ned to foster in the Vale with the Arryns (alongside the future Lord Paramount of the Stormlands), but he arranges his heir to marry the daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and then arranges his daughter to marry the before mentioned Lord Paramount of the Stormlands.

There seemed to be an obvious Bloc of power building between the Starks, Arryns, Baratheons and Tullys

The Tullys are well known for intermarrying into powerful families (as way to defend the virtually UN-defendable Riverlands), would later marry his second daughter to Lord Arryn of the Vale, but not before proposing a marriage between that daughter and the heir to the Westerlands Jaime Lannister

 

Now we don’t know WHY Rickard Stark did this (along with Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully), if it was in response to the growing threat of the Mad King and the Targaryen rule that had become increasing problematic OR if was just a way for Rickard (and his allies) to increase the power, wealth and prosperity of their Kingdoms. Either way, we do know that it caught the eye of the Throne and the heir to the Throne, Rhaegar Targaryen.

This sets the political scene in Westeros at that time. The King was Mad, the Prince was plotting and the Kingdoms (or at least some of them) were preparing.

 

The Tournament at Harrenhal and the Knight of the Laughing Tree (The Ingredients and Mixture)

 

We know that the Tournament at Harrenhal occurred 281 (known as the year of the False Spring), and was considered the greatest tournament of it’s time.

It was questioned where House Whent got the financial means to put on the tournament as well as provide the purses for the champions.

It is a widely held theory (as well by in book character Maester Yandel) that Rhaegar Targaryen was the shadow benefactor of the Tournament to gather many Great Lords in order to gain support for a Great Council to remove his father, the Mad King from the Iron Throne.

The Spider, Varys told as much to Aerys Targaryen causing him to surprisingly attend the tournament.

This brings together most of the main characters for Robert’s Rebellion: Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ned, Brandon and Robert.

During the tournament an unknown, masked Knight going by the name of the Knight of the Laughing Tree shows up and disappears again just as quickly, leading Aerys to declare him as an enemy of the Throne, tasking Rhaegar to find, unmask and capture the Knight.

There are many theories as to just who the Knight of the laughing Tree could be, but by far the most popular is that Lyanna is the masked Knight.

This would be the fateful event that first introduces Rhaegar and Lyanna, one that would let Rhaegar see her as more than just the pretty Stark girl in the audience at the tournament.

The theory is that Rhaegar follows/ deduces/ uncovers the truth about Lyanna and confronts her about it and promises to keep her (harmless) secret.

Later, Rhaegar can’t help but to tip his hat to Lyanna by giving her the crown of blue Winter Roses as the Queen of Love and Beauty instead of his wife who was also in attendance.

 

Up until this point, while the Political Climate might have been one that eventually lead to a major upheaval, there was not a collision course set.

Now Brandon Stark has it in head that Rhaegar insulted the Starks, Aerys thinks that Rhaegar is out to oust him from power and that TKotLT is working against him, and Rhaegar and Lyanna with the start of a mutual attraction.

 

Rhaegar Absconds with Lyanna (The Catalyst)

 

At some point either shortly before the Tournament at Harrenhal or shortly after Elia Targaryen (Martell) gave birth to Rhaegar Targaryen’s second child Aegon. The birth almost killed her, and the Maester informed the couple that Elia count not give birth to anymore children.

It has been seen that Rhaegar believed that his child would be the Prince who was Promised and that he would be accompanied by two of his sibling to create the Three Heads of the Dragon. So we know Rhaegar would have been looking for a way to have a third child, and that it would need to be with another women since another birth would end in the death of Elia and most likely the child.

But what we don’t know is how quickly Rhaegar thought this needed to happen. There is no indication that this was something that he was desperate for to happen ASAP.

What we do know is that Varys was employed by the King, and was savvy enough to find out that Rhaegar was behind the Harrenhal Tourney and that it was meant as a meeting for the Great Lords and Rhaegar.

We know that Aerys wanted TKotLT, as he deemed an enemy of the Throne, and that it was easily pieced together that the three men defeated by the mystery knight were also connected to the issue between the Starks and their Bannerman Howland Reed.

If Rhaegar was able to discover the identity of TKotLT, then Varys would be able as well.

Consider this quote from the World Book:

King Aerys II was not a man to take any joy in mysteries, however. His Grace became convinced that the tree on the mystery knight’s shield was laughing at him […] he commanded his own knights to defeat the Knight of the Laughing Tree when the jousts resumed the next morning, so that he might be unmasked and his perfidy exposed for all to see. But the mystery knight vanished during the night, never to be seen again. This too the king took ill, certain that someone close to him had given warning to “this traitor who will not show his face.”

 

We know there was no imminent threat of Lyanna marrying Robert that would cause Lyanna to run off in desperation, fleeing her soon to be husband.

We also know nothing that would indicate that Rhaegar was so desperate for a Third Head of the Dragon that he would run off with a noble girl that would at the very least start a huge incident between the Throne and at least two Lord Paramounts.

This again from the Word Book:

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal . . . where Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

So what if Rhaegar set out to rescue Lyanna from Aerys’ Justice?

 

This is from a blog I found discussing Rhaegar and Lyanna’s parallel to Lancelot and Gwenhyfar rescue to Lancelot’s castle Joyous Gard (seem similar?):

"Based on information from the books, it seems possible that Lyanna was on her way to Riverrun for her brother’s upcoming wedding. Lord Rickard appears to have been en route from Winterfell south, and Brandon had left Riverrun on “an errand” which may have been to meet his sister and return with her to the Tully home. Lyanna may well have been staying at Harrenhal, as many have suggested, and given the distance mentioned in TWoIaF we can consider a few possibilities as the fateful meeting place. The Isle of Faces, another locale that some speculate may have significance to the RLJ narrative, lies well within a ten league radius of Harrenhal. So too does any amount of “open road” or countryside. And while we can’t rule those possibilities out, I wonder about the Inn at the Crossroads.

Given the very rough scale of the published maps, at times conflicting descriptions from the text, and GRRM’s statement that “I did leave the scale out of the map on purpose… I didn’t want to get bogged down in that type of detail” .the Inn at the Crossroads seems close enough to Harrenhal to be considered within a ten league radius of Harrenhal. The crossroads is a symbol of choices, meetings and fateful decisions. And interestingly enough the Inn at the Crossroads is the site of another high profile kidnapping– Cat’s seizure of Tyrion. That fateful decision also led to open hostilities in Westeros, and in that case we had the onlookers in the Inn who rushed to tell the family of the kidnap victim what had happened. This could be the explanation for Brandon’s headlong rush to King’s Landing– hearing a story from witnesses of knights with swords seizing his sister and making off with her. It could have looked like a kidnapping, especially if we consider the possibility that Aerys’ soldiers were also present and there was confusion and some kind of fight. In fact, given that we now know that Rhaegar had six companions when he went into the Riverlands, but only Dayne and Whent disappeared into the South with him and Lyanna, it’s possible that Brandon actually pursued the wrong group of four back to King’s Landing. I’d suggest Ser Myles Mooton and Ser Richard Lonmouth as two of the six, since they are mentioned on more than one occasion as close companions of Rhaegar. Based upon their identification in TWoIaF as Rhaegar’s supporters, could Prince Lewyn Martell and Lord Jon Connington have been the other two? Aerys ultimately proved a lack of trust in both, which could have been cemented by their possible involvement with the situation.”

https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/rescue-at-the-crossroads/

So I surmise that Rhaegar went to rescue Lyanna from Aerys’ men, but knew he could not take her to Winterfell because Aerys would demand her from the Starks. Rhaegar’s plan was simple, hide Lyanna because Aerys can’t demand her head if he can’t find her.

After they arrived at the Tower of Joy, he would get word to the Starks about the situation and how they could help each other. Unfortunately Brandon stormed off to King’s Landing leading in the deaths of himself, Rickard and the calling of Ned and Roberts’ heads.

 

The Love and Marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna (the Chemical Reaction)

And if Rhaegar and Lyanna married, they would solve four problems with one stroke. Rhaegar’s need of a third child, Lyanna’s want of an out from Robert’s betrothal, The Stark’s allegiance in a Grand Council to overthrow Aerys AND protection for Lyanna from Aerys (Aerys would not harm his son or wife on a whim)

Now Rhaegar was surely at least in the mindset that he needed another woman to bear his third child, and Lyanna was definitely not looking forward to marrying Robert. And we know that there was an attraction from Lyanna to Rhaegar, and maybe Rhaegar also shared this attraction (Was the crown of roses due to his attraction or a tip of the hat that he would keep her secret?)

But I do not think this was done with the purpose of love (SEE ABOVE), that was just a byproduct of them being close and the sadness that they must have experienced from the tragic results of Lyanna’s rescue (the war, deaths of Lyanna’s brother and father).

We know that Rhaegar did indeed love Lyanna (died with her name on his lips) and that, that love resulted in the birth (most likely) of Jon.

 

Their marriage would be no different for either of them than the planned marriages that Rhaegar and Lyanna were already involved in (betrothal in Lyanna’s case).

Their marriage could have been performed in one of two ways that GRRM planted (for a reason) near where Rhaegar and Lyanna met in the Riverlands.

One would be the Isle of Faces, one of the few places that would have Weirwood tress that far South and the Two, would be the traveling Septon Meribald (a character that is still around).

Either way, the two best cases for them being married would have had to happen right after Lyanna’s kidnapping, leading me to believe that not only was it one of the first things that they did, but that they might have had multiple witnesses to the marriage.

 

As far as evidence for a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna goes, it is well documented in many of the threads around, so I won’t completely rehash it, but whether it is the King’s Guard staying at the Tower, Ned’s feeling about Rhaegar and King’s Guard after everything that occurred, or the multiple allusions to Jon as King in the series (must be true born to be King), plus many more, there is good evidence that they were not only in love but married as well.

 

Ned’s Promise, Ned’s Lie and his Proof (The End Result)

 

We know that Ned was asked by Lyanna to keep a promise. It is widely held that the promise was either: Keep Jon safe, Hide Jon from Robert: Raise Jon in Winterfell… or some combination of all of them.

So Ned most likely travels with a wet nurse/ midwife that was at the Tower when Lyanna gave birth (“when THEY found him” Wylla?), along with Howland to Starfall to return Dawn and then eventually they split up, with Wylla and Jon heading to Winterfell and Ned traveling separate (to Riverun and Cat?).

Ned’s promise is something that weighs heavily on him as it runs polar opposite of everything that makes Ned who he is.

He now needs to lie to his brother and wife about Jon. He needs to commit treason and lie to Robert (his new King) about Lyanna and hide form him the fact that Jon is in the line of succession for the Throne that Robert now sits.

Ned has seen what the Lannisters and Robert (by acceptance) have done to the other Dragon Spawn, and knows what will happen to Jon should Robert learn the truth. At the same time Ned puts his entire family at risk, not only their lives but their birthrights as Winterfell will most likely be taken form the Starks as well for his treason.

 

Now the final piece of all of this is what can prove to Jon, the readers and all of Westeros

One way would be any witnesses that may have been present either at the marriage or the Tower.

That list would include, Ned, Howland, Whent and Dayne for sure. Then possible candidates would be Wylla, Septon Meribald, Myles Mooton, Richard Lonmouth, Lewyn Martell & Jon Connington.

Now, some of these characters are dead, but we know that Bloodraven & Bran can see into the past through the Weirnet.

 

Also, there is the Crypts of Winterfell where Jon has a long standing date with. He has dreamt about it over and over again. Most likely explanation would be Bloodraven pushing towards discovering the truth in the Crypts and  Jon discovering his True heritage.

 

There are a lot of theories that have been bandied about, regarding what is in the crypts, but the one that makes the most sense to me, especially regarding the theory I have out forth that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married almost immediately after their meeting in the Riverlands, would be a Targaryen marriage cloak

(perhaps even Elias’?)

If Rhaegar had time to gather such a cloak, and had this plan in mind when he left, the best place to get such a cloak would be King’s Landing.

 

So in conclusion

Richard Stark inadvertently built a powder keg by setting up his children’s marriages> Lyanna and Rhaegar packed that powder keg by being TKotLT and naming her QoLB> Aerys lit the fuse by seeking TKotLT> And Rhaegar and Lyanna rolled it out in to the middle of Westeros by getting married and fleeing together to the Tower of Joy.

[purple-eyes]

Just for curiosity, why did you mention the wedding cloak for Lyanna Stark is likely provided from Elia Martell? 

Don't you think she is already humiliated enough in your interpretation? 

Now you want to let this poor woman give her once-in-life wedding dress to another woman to let her marry her own husband right after she almost died to give him a second child? 

I would believe she would rather burn it than give it to them from her closet. 

I know you want to ignore her since she is forever a ugly thorn in the beautiful love rose of rhaegar and lyanna, but it would be nice to give her a little bit courtesy. 

[purple-eyes]

By the way, as far as we know, Aerys did not have problem to harm wife and son of rhaegar. 

He not only held them as hostage, but also decided and almost made it to burn them all to death. 

But sure, considering lyanna is his beloved wife and jon is his incredibly important son, while elia is a useless wife and two children are products of ugly arranged marriage, aerys certainly would treat lyanna better. 

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

15 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Just for curiosity, why did you mention the wedding cloak for Lyanna Stark is likely provided from Elia Martell? 

Don't you think she is already humiliated enough in your interpretation? 

Now you want to let this poor woman give her once-in-life wedding dress to another woman to let her marry her own husband right after she almost died to give him a second child? 

I would believe she would rather burn it than give it to them from her closet. 

I know you want to ignore her since she is forever a ugly thorn in the beautiful love rose of rhaegar and lyanna, but it would be nice to give her a little bit courtesy. 

Why do you insist on seeing Ellia as the victim and Rhaegar as the bad guy?

We know that Rhaegar told Ellia that there needed to be one more child. She is fully aware of this.

We also know that regardless of whether or not Rhaegar takes a second wife, Aegon is the child that would inherit the Throne, that he was in line to be King. Ellia would most likely be Queen (as the first wife).

If having sex with Rhaegar could kill her, let alone having another child, AND that MOST future Kings would cast aside a wife that could no longer produce heirs, AND their marriage was not out of love but was a political marriage... Why would Ellia even care if Rhaegar picked another wife.

She gets to keep her station, her son still becomes King. And she doesn't have to die trying to give birth to another child.

I fully believe that Ellia was completely behind Rhaegar taking a second wife, and probably knew that Lyanna was to be that women.

As far as the wedding cloak, it makes sense that he would bring one from King's Landing. It being Ellia's was just an offhand observation as I do not know exactly how hard it would be to find one/ have one made. Having already made and available (and maybe even a given to him by Ellia as a form of consent) makes sense.

15 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

By the way, as far as we know, Aerys did not have problem to harm wife and son of rhaegar. 

He not only held them as hostage, but also decided and almost made it to burn them all to death. 

But sure, considering lyanna is his beloved wife and jon is his incredibly important son, while elia is a useless wife and two children are products of ugly arranged marriage, aerys certainly would treat lyanna better.

Aerys might have held them "hostage" to ensure the Martells stayed in line but he did not harm them. Even when the city fell he did not order their deaths (other than he ordered EVERYONE'S deaths by wildfire)

I am not saying that Aerys would treat Lyanna better, just that as mad as Aerys was he would tread lightly when acting against Rhaegar because of his popularity with the other Lords and the small folk.

Aerys knew that Rhaegar funded the Harrenhal Tourney and did nothing about it. Aerys knew that Rhaegar intended to eventually call a Grand Council and did nothing about it. Aerys knew that Rhaegar took Lyanna and did nothing about it.

After ALL of that, he never once hurt Rhaegar or his family. There is no reason to believe he would start now, not with out a major push against him.

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Why do you insist on seeing Ellia as the victim and Rhaegar as the bad guy?

We know that Rhaegar told Ellia that there needed to be one more child. She is fully aware of this.

We also know that regardless of whether or not Rhaegar takes a second wife, Aegon is the child that would inherit the Throne, that he was in line to be King. Ellia would most likely be Queen (as the first wife).

If having sex with Rhaegar could kill her, let alone having another child, AND that MOST future Kings would cast aside a wife that could no longer produce heirs, AND their marriage was not out of love but was a political marriage... Why would Ellia even care if Rhaegar picked another wife.

She gets to keep her station, her son still becomes King. And she doesn't have to die trying to give birth to another child.

I fully believe that Ellia was completely behind Rhaegar taking a second wife, and probably knew that Lyanna was to be that women.

As far as the wedding cloak, it makes sense that he would bring one from King's Landing. It being Ellia's was just an offhand observation as I do not know exactly how hard it would be to find one/ have one made. Having already made and available (and maybe even a given to him by Ellia as a form of consent) makes sense.

Aerys might have held them "hostage" to ensure the Martells stayed in line but he did not harm them. Even when the city fell he did not order their deaths (other than he ordered EVERYONE'S deaths by wildfire)

I am not saying that Aerys would treat Lyanna better, just that as mad as Aerys was he would tread lightly when acting against Rhaegar because of his popularity with the other Lords and the small folk.

Aerys knew that Rhaegar funded the Harrenhal Tourney and did nothing about it. Aerys knew that Rhaegar intended to eventually call a Grand Council and did nothing about it. Aerys knew that Rhaegar took Lyanna and did nothing about it.

After ALL of that, he never once hurt Rhaegar or his family. There is no reason to believe he would start now, not with out a major push against him.

There was a recent post about "if Elia is Ok with rhaegar + lyanna" 

if you have some free time, please go and check. 

Existence of lyanna as wife and her children as true born is significant threat towards her and her children. A bloody dance is on the way. Worse than blackfyre. 

You openly tell a victim your plan that how you will harm her will not make you less criminal. It only make you a honest criminal. Sure, elia may endure and agree since she had no choice. But if you feel she is willing and happy, then you are incredibly wrong. Rhaegar is not a person who can lawfully have a harem.

And yes, what rhaegar did made Elia become a victim (mentally as well as physically in the end) 

So Aerys planned to kill everybody including them means he did not want to hurt them? What logic is this? 

Of course he wanted to hurt them. If Jaime did not show up, aerys already burned them. He could have sent them to DS with rhaella and viserys, he did not, and he did not do it later either when he ordered the fire. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I certainly can see myself not giving a fig about a second wife (in a political marriage) if I was not in anyway threatened. Her sons position is far more secure if she says yes to a second wife than if she says no and risks being set aside entirely. It isn't that hard to grasp that she could have been ok with or at the very least reluctantly agreed to a second wife. 

Some people are more concerned with proving Rhaegar a bad person than actually analysing the text and considering the reality of the situation.

 Elia can't have more kids, Rhaegar really feels the safety of the entire world is hinged upon him having a third. His family have a historical practice of Polygamy.It seems blatantly obvious what he did. And if she is savvy she agrees because to do otherwise is to basically get yourself set aside and with that your kids disinherited.  

 

[Anath]

We don't know literally any of the things you claim as facts. Especially Aegon being the future king. We don't know it was Elia Rhaegar said his famous line to and not himself or Dany. We don't know the conversation took place after they were told Elia would have more children. What we know is that there was no danger for Elia to die in childbirth since she simply couldn't have children, so no reason to fear it and resort to Lyanna measures to prevent it.

Talk about simplifying things to glorify the sainted couple. What do politics and basic humanity matter when Rhaegar and Lyanna getting recognition from everyone is concerned! What's next? Robert Baratheon was invited to be Rhaegar's best man but the invitation got lost?

I cannot see myself not giving a fig about a second wife because no one can guarantee that I and my kids won't be politically threatened. What I can be sure of because Rhaegar has proven it is that I can work myself almost to death as Elia did with Rhaenys but he'd step over me in his rush to reward Lyanna each time she managed not to pour wine over someone's head. Lyanna wasn't that brave knight merely because she was so fond of justice, she has wanted to play the knight since she was a much younger girl. That's what gets Rhaegar's recognition. The threat for Elia's future and her kids' future is clear. Rhaegar is known to have changed his mind before. I think it's quite possible that he changed it once again but anyway, Elia could in no way be sure that he wouldn't one day.

Accepting it because you have no choice isn't not giving a fig. Cat accepted Jon but she definitely did give a fig and he was a far lesser threat.

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

7 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Existence of lyanna as wife and her children as true born is significant threat towards her and her children. A bloody dance is on the way. Worse than blackfyre. 

You openly tell a victim your plan that how you will harm her will not make you less criminal. It only make you a honest criminal. Sure, elia may endure and agree since she had no choice. But if you feel she is willing and happy, then you are incredibly wrong. Rhaegar is not a person who can lawfully have a harem.

And yes, what rhaegar did made Elia become a victim (mentally as well as physically in the end) 

So Aerys planned to kill everybody including them means he did not want to hurt them? What logic is this? 

Of course he wanted to hurt them. If Jaime did not show up, aerys already burned them. He could have sent them to DS with rhaella and viserys, he did not, and he did not do it later either when he ordered the fire.

Aerys was going to burn everyone, including the Lannisters, himself, the people of King's Landing... not just Elia and the kids. It was a last gasp attack on the enemy.

He was not singling out Rhaegar's family.

And Rhaegar did not expect a full blown war to start, so he never intended for Ellia and the kids to be hostages. Just like the Martells never expected Ellia to be a hostage when they set up the marriage. Were the Martells guilty of making her a victim?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

4 minutes ago, Anath said:

We don't know literally any of the things you claim as facts. Especially Aegon being the future king. We don't know it was Elia Rhaegar said his famous line to and not himself or Dany. We don't know the conversation took place after they were told Elia would have more children. What we know is that there was no danger for Elia to die in childbirth since she simply couldn't have children, so no reason to fear it and resort to Lyanna measures to prevent it.

This is not true, she was bed ridden for 6 months after the first child and the second child almost killed her. It was not that she was barren, it was that another child would kill her

Talk about simplifying things to glorify the sainted couple. What do politics and basic humanity matter when Rhaegar and Lyanna getting recognition from everyone is concerned! What's next? Robert Baratheon was invited to be Rhaegar's best man but the invitation got lost?

Huh?

I cannot see myself not giving a second fig about a second wife because no one can guarantee that I and my kids won't be politically threatened. What I can be sure of because Rhaegar has proven it is that I can work myself almost to death as Elia did with Rhaenys but he'd step over me in his rush to reward Lyanna each time she managed not to pour wine over someone's head. Lyanna wasn't that brave knight merely because she was so fond of justice, she has wanted to play the knight since she was a much younger girl. That's what gets Rhaegar's recognition. The threat for Elia's future and her kids' future is clear.

What are you even talking about? Where does it say that Ellia was the hardworking mother and she almost worked herself to death? Where does it say that Rhaegar treated her poorly?

If Lyanna was just looking for an excuse to play Knight and had nothing to do with Howland, why do Howland's family hold her is such high regard?

And yes, maybe one day there would be a division between Rhaegar's heirs. But it seems to me that he was right in his interpretation of needing to create TPwwP before the Others/ long Night approached.

Their marriage was a political one, there was no love.Meaning her son as King was the desired effect from that marriage. the Martells got what they wanted. Now Elia doesnt have to die trying to give birth to a third child and she is not cast aside.

There is no proof that Ellia even loved Rhaegar to have the feeling to be hurt that he would pick a second wife. She could have been just as easily relieved that he would be spending his time with someone else.

 

 

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Aerys was going to burn everyone, including the Lannisters, himself, the people of King's Landing... not just Elia and the kids. It was a last gasp attack on the enemy.

He was not singling out Rhaegar's family.

And Rhaegar did not expect a full blown war to start, so he never intended for Ellia and the kids to be hostages. Just like the Martells never expected Ellia to be a hostage when they set up the marriage. Were the Martells guilty of making her a victim?

To be fair, aerys did not mean to kill himself, just like aerion, he wanted to convert to a dragon. He planned to kill everybody else including rhaegar's family. And yes, he is intentionally murdering many many people and everybody is his victim. Just because he tried to murder thousands at the same time, does not mean he is less criminal on three of them. 

By the way, aerys had no problem to hurt his sister wife. He had a reliable record on hurting his family. 

Rhaegar was doing a very dangerous thing and there is a decent chance to cause bloody conflicts. As a 24 year old smart crown prince, I guess he understood this. And his daddy is a crazy and powerful man who enjoyed raping his wife and burning people and already disliked your child, too bad he had absolute power over you and all men on DS.

In this case, if you are rhaegar, tell me, are you willing to leave your sick wife and two venerable infant children at his mercy? 

 

 

 

[kimim]

17 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

After they arrived at the Tower of Joy, he would get word to the Starks about the situation and how they could help each other. Unfortunately Brandon stormed off to King’s Landing leading in the deaths of himself, Rickard and the calling of Ned and Roberts’ heads.

One major problem: Size of Westeros. It's days, weeks of travel from Harrenhal to the tower of joy. Waiting that long to let anyone know is crazy, as it looks as if the married crown prince ran off with the Stark daughter, who was betrothed to the besotted Robert. In one fell swoop, Rhaegar alienated the Starks, the Baratheons, and the Martells.

EDIT: Meanwhile, there's a wedding on at the Riverlands, with Starks and Tullys present. Why not take Lyanna to her brother? Why not use this as an opportunity to strengthen ties? Rhaegar could say something like, my daddy has gone too far. He's now trying to kill innocent virgins. Here, I've rescued your sister. I'm calling a council. Time someone did something about this.

Instead, he disappears.

 

17 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Rhaegar’s plan was simple, hide Lyanna because Aerys can’t demand her head if he can’t find her.

This, again, makes no sense. Aerys demands Lyanna's head. Do you really believe that the Starks will give her to Aerys? Of course not. In fact, Rhaegar should be eager for his father to make such a request, as it gives Rhaegar an excuse to call a council and remove daddy.

By running off with Lyanna, he alienates the people he needed for such a council to work. Starks, Baratheons are now convinced the crown prince is an ass, and the Martells can't be too pleased, either, as he has just betrayed Elia.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 minutes ago, Anath said:

 What we know is that there was no danger for Elia to die in childbirth since she simply couldn't have children.

 

Pretty sure we already went through this. Biologically there isn't something that could have happened to Elia to prevent her being fertile, given that the only thing that would cause that is her having her ovaries and or womb removed which she would simply not have survived. 

And even something which would likely result in repeated M/C's would be highly likely to result in her own death due to risk of infections ect. 

There is no getting around the fact that Elia's problem is risk of her own death if she carries another child. 

When you repeatedly deny something which is obvious it only serves to make you appear to be twisting the text to suit your own desires. 

When trying to construct theories it is important to work with the text and not simply project our own preferences onto the story.

[purple-eyes]

10 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

 

An arranged marriage means you do not care a second wife and her children? Arranged marriage means you will not be hurt by betrayal? Arranged marriage means your husband can happily get a second spouse? 

Lol. 

Cat married Ned by pure political marriage. 

We know her feeling when she saw Jon snow. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

To be fair, aerys did not mean to kill himself, just like aerion, he wanted to convert to a dragon. He planned to kill everybody else including rhaegar's family. And yes, he is intentionally murdering many many people and everybody is his victim. Just because he tried to murder thousands at the same time, does not mean he is less criminal on three of them. 

By the way, aerys had no problem to hurt his sister wife. He had a reliable record on hurting his family. 

Rhaegar was doing a very dangerous thing and there is a decent chance to cause bloody conflicts. As a 24 year old smart crown prince, I guess he understood this. And his daddy is a crazy and powerful man who enjoyed raping his wife and burning people and already disliked your child, too bad he had absolute power over you and all men on DS.

In this case, if you are rhaegar, tell me, are you willing to leave your sick wife and two venerable infant children at his mercy?

I did not say there were no risks, but Rhaegar obviously thought the risks of war between the Starks and their allies was greater that leaving his wife and kids in King's Landing.

Just now, kimim said:

One major problem: Size of Westeros. It's days, weeks of travel from Harrenhal to the tower of joy. Waiting that long to let anyone know is crazy, as it looks as if the married crown prince ran off with the Stark daughter, who was betrothed to the besotted Robert. In one fell swoop, Rhaegar alienated the Starks, the Baratheons, and the Martells.

 

This, again, makes no sense. Aerys demands Lyanna's head. Do you really believe that the Starks will give her to Aerys? Of course not. In fact, Rhaegar should be eager for his father to make such a request, as it gives Rhaegar an excuse to call a council and remove daddy.

By running off with Lyanna, he alienates the people he needed for such a council to work. Starks, Baratheons are now convinced the crown prince is an ass, and the Martells can't be too pleased, either, as he has just betrayed Elia.

one: Yes, at first the reaction would be that the Starks and Baratheons, and maybe the Martells would be anger and such. But If Brandon does not kick in the door at King's Landing there would have been time to smooth over everything with most of them. The Starks would be happy that Lyanna was rescued and now a Princess, as she now gives them access to the Capitol after Rhaegar is made King.

As for the Martells, if Rhaegar had Ellia's permission (and Rhaegar gives them some concessions) they would be fine.

The only real problem would be Robert (not the Baratheons as a whole as we see that Stannis still almost sided with Aerys), but if the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Martells are happy, Robert is not going to war on his own, and I am sure that Robert could have been talked in to a concession (maybe marrying the beautiful Lannister girl)

two: Of course I do not think that the Starks would give her to Aerys. But what happens after that? Aerys says... no biggie and leaves? No,it leads to all out war against the TARGARYENS. Rhaegar is Targaryen and would no longer be able to convince the Stark power bloc to join him. If Rhaegar wanted to call a Grand Council and take the Throne, he would need to do it BEFORE a war started.

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

An arranged marriage means you do not care a second wife and her children? Arranged marriage means you will not be hurt by betrayal? Arranged marriage means your husband can happily get a second spouse? 

Lol. 

Cat married Ned by pure political marriage. 

We know her feeling when she saw Jon snow. 

But you are assuming that Ellia and Cat are the same.

We know that the Dornish have different thoughts about marriage and sex that the Northerners do.

Oberyn takes multiple lovers and everyone seems OK with it.

What if Ellia was a strong, independent, politically active women like Margery who was OK with Renly sleeping with her brother?

By pigeonholing Ellia as weak victim, you discredit her and the chance that she was a Martell who played the Game of Thrones.

 

[Anath]

1. The text is clear. She couldn't have more children. Everything else is a speculation and in many cases, an excuse invented for Rhaegar.

2.Elia being behind and Lyanna is possible but it defies any logic. By painting it sweet and uncomplicated, you turn Rhaegar and Lyanna into saints, not humans with good intentions and perhaps mistakes. In fact, I am not sure I disagree. Some sources claim Empress Irene of Byzantium was canonized, after all.

3. Elia attended Harrenhall in the immediate aftermath of her 6 months of bedrest after Rhaenys' birth. That is working herself almost to death in her attempt to give Rhaegar a child. There, his treatment of her was abhorrent. You might wish to wave Lyanna's crowning away as not meaning anything to Elia but the in-world characters think it a big deal. I think it's very revealing about Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. He might not have beaten her but he happily humiliated her.

4. I am not saying that it was only an excuse. I am saying that there was an element of this involved. Lyanna deserves regard for defending Howland. Not the crown meant for another acknowlegdment altogether. And as far as we know, Elia didn't deserve to be shamed in public. Didn't stop her husband. His appreciation for the two women is clear: Lyanna's battles - great. Elia's battle to give birth to his own child - less worthy in his eyes. Elia simply isn't this awesome.

5. No guarantee that Elia's son would be king. Rhaegar couldn't give it even if he wanted to. Nothing to say she believed in his prophecy either.

6. I can easily see her being relieved that he has found someone else. As long as it isn't a second wife and Lyanna Stark of all people. Love has nothing to do with it. People still get hurt even when love has never been there.

The Weirdwood Eyes, we've been there, yes. I still stand behind my assertion that it's you who's twisting the text. GRRM world od dragons, dragonscale and all nonexisting things, his rules, he could have said Elia would have died, he chose not to. You still think it's me twisting it. No big deal.

[WSmith84]

Why would the Starks want Lyanna to be Rhaegar's second wife? The children from that union would inherit nothing. And why would the Martells ever be happy with Rhaegar taking a second wife, particularly from a family who can muster up significantly better military support (at least the North and Riverlands)? Younger siblings are always going to be a threat to the eldest; this is made significantly worse if they are of different mothers, and worse still when the second mother has better military backing. Rhaegar could try as hard as he could, but there's no guarantee that little Jon Targaryen won't grow up to be another Daemon Blackfyre, or Maegor the Cruel, or Aegon II.

[kimim]

1 minute ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

one: Yes, at first the reaction would be that the Starks and Baratheons, and maybe the Martells would be anger and such. But If Brandon does not kick in the door at King's Landing there would have been time to smooth over everything with most of them. The Starks would be happy that Lyanna was rescued and now a Princess, as she now gives them access to the Capitol after Rhaegar is made King.

 

Why doesn't he take Lyanna to Brandon, who is in the Riverlands? Why not take her to WF? Starks are not going to hand Lyanna to Aerys, so he couldn't be seriously worried about that. Meanwhile, if daddy is crazy enough to call for Lyanna's head (and daddy is that crazy) then Rhaegar calls his council, removes daddy, takes over. According to your initial post, this was his plan all along--he was building up alliances.

The only reason for his failing to take Lyanna to Brandon is that he wanted to run off with her, and knew that the Starks would be less than pleased at their daughter becoming the second "wife" of a bigamous prince. If that is the case, there go his alliances with the Starks, with the Baratheons. There goes the council.

 

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I did not say there were no risks, but Rhaegar obviously thought the risks of war between the Starks and their allies was greater that leaving his wife and kids in King's Landing.

one: Yes, at first the reaction would be that the Starks and Baratheons, and maybe the Martells would be anger and such. But If Brandon does not kick in the door at King's Landing there would have been time to smooth over everything with most of them. The Starks would be happy that Lyanna was rescued and now a Princess, as she now gives them access to the Capitol after Rhaegar is made King.

As for the Martells, if Rhaegar had Ellia's permission (and Rhaegar gives them some concessions) they would be fine.

The only real problem would be Robert (not the Baratheons as a whole as we see that Stannis still almost sided with Aerys), but if the Starks, Tullys, Arryns and Martells are happy, Robert is not going to war on his own, and I am sure that Robert could have been talked in to a concession (maybe marrying the beautiful Lannister girl)

two: Of course I do not think that the Starks would give her to Aerys. But what happens after that? Aerys says... no biggie and leaves? No,it leads to all out war against the TARGARYENS. Rhaegar is Targaryen and would no longer be able to convince the Stark power bloc to join him. If Rhaegar wanted to call a Grand Council and take the Throne, he would need to do it BEFORE a war started.

 

Sure, house stark will be happy to see lyanna become a future queen, this is quite beneficial. I agree. 

Then why did not rhaegar tell them since the very beginning? 

Why brandon was so angry and mad? Why did he want to kill his good brother? Why Rickard did not bring this up to aerys who is now father in law of his daughter before their deaths? If rhaegar married his daughter and they would have children, this may save himself and brandon from death. Why Ned fought so hard with dear husband of his sister? Should not lyanna pass him some information that she married to rhaegar, you two please do not fight with each other? 

IMHO This is the major flaw of " polygamy marriage". 

Rhaegar had no marriage to offer. He never married lyanna.  He had to run away and hide for one year. He had to fight with Ned. 

[Anath]

10 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

An arranged marriage means you do not care a second wife and her children? Arranged marriage means you will not be hurt by betrayal? Arranged marriage means your husband can happily get a second spouse? 

Lol. 

Cat married Ned by pure political marriage. 

We know her feeling when she saw Jon snow. 

Rhaella must have been totally indifferent with Aerys picking her ladies to be his whores. Oh wait...