The missing pieces regarding Robert's Rebellion and the disapearence of Lyanna

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

 

I said that it makes you look like an idiot. I did not call you one.

Oh, thanks for clarifying this.

 

[Ygrain]

15 minutes ago, kimim said:

Do you seriously believe that Aerys would be kinder to Rhaegar if he showed up with a second wife, and a second son?

Why do you believe this? Why would Rhaegar believe this?

No need for him to be kinder, only to admit that the deed is done and cannot be dissolved.

Plus, who knows... getting the girl preggers does have a weird impact on parents. I've seen even in RL. Twice.

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

No need for him to be kinder, only to admit that the deed is done and cannot be dissolved.

Plus, who knows... getting the girl preggers does have a weird impact on parents. I've seen even in RL. Twice.

The baby can not be returned to his mother's belly and the baby can not be refused to be blood of rhaegar and Lyanna. Sure.

But the so-called polygamious secret tree marriage can be treated as invalid.

One is biological, the other one is social.

Once one baby is born in one certain place, nobody can change his birthplace, but his citizenship completely depends on the policy.

Please see the difference and do not mix them together.

 

 

 

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

That's why I'm asking because your theory definitely points out there is a high chance Rhaegar would have disowned his children.

You just have to look at how he chose to reward Lyanna a girl he barely knew over his wife humiliaiting her in the process because he probably thought her more deserving of that crown that his 'simple' wife.

In that case why wouldn't he reward his son the savior of the world with the throne since on top of his 'godly' status he is the son of his love with a significantly better military backing than the Martells.

Honestly with all of this how would Aegon still be the heir and in that case how could Elia be part of that plan.

You aware that Lyanna was most likely KotLT, so there was way more behind the crowning than mere looks, right?

[Kal-L]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

You aware that Lyanna was most likely KotLT, so there was way more behind the crowning than mere looks, right?

Definitely, I just don't find it a good reason to publicly humiliate his wife. What prevent the story to repeat once again (especially as this time Jon will be a true hero) ?

[UnmaskedLurker]

25 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

I don't get it. So now even though Elia hadn't been able to produced the third Head, Rhaegar would still have had to shag Lyanna ?

I am not sure I understand your point. The dragon must have three heads -- Rhaegar believes. Rhaegar also seems to believe his children will be the three heads. Elia cannot -- so Rhaegar needs someone to produce the third head. Does it have to be Lyanna? No. But does Rhaegar want it to be Lyanna -- apparently so. 

And I gave a few reasons as to why Rhaegar would chose Lyanna as the mother of the third head (and possibly TPTWP). Do you want me to go through these reasons again?

23 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Somehow, the debate is way more fun to read when one does not participate. In a popcorn way. Especially when seeing that some attitudes can last years.

Sometimes I wish I had your level of restraint.

13 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I disagree with this, strongly.

It is a world of fantasy, yes, but what gives it its realistic edge and what makes it the fascinating read that it is and allows us (oh well, me) to immerse is the realistic (ie relatable, within the common understanding of the human experience) way the characters react, intellectually and emotionally, to their given situations; the situations may be where the fantasy ("un-realistic") element can be inserted.

Of course the author can do "whatever he wants", but what he chooses to do is bound to influence the quality of his work, as much as how he does it. Sure, as well, assessment of a novel's quality is a highly subjective matter so, speaking for myself, I would not appreciate a contrived conflict-erasing "solution" that is not even plot wise necessary in the first place.

While GRRM works hard to ground the story in realistic behavior of characters based on how he has consistently presented them -- GRRM has not limited himself to "ordinary behavior" at all. Many characters behave in extreme or unusual ways. Whatever he may decide to have Elia do will be based on whatever overarching story arc GRRM is trying to put forth. But to assume that Elia would react in the way that a majority of women in the circumstance would act simply is not a useful way to analyze fiction. Her actions have to plausible given what else is stated about her. So little has been stated that GRRM has plenty of room to justify whatever behavior fits his desired narrative.

1 minute ago, kimim said:

Do you seriously believe that Aerys would be kinder to Rhaegar if he showed up with a second wife, and a second son?

Why do you believe this? Why would Rhaegar believe this?

 

Great question. I have given this topic a lot of thought. Understand that for Rhaegar, I don't think taking a second wife was just an option -- he thought he had to do so for the prophecy. So not taking a second wife really was not an alternative that I think was open to Rhaegar -- he had no other way to create the third head (based on what I think was his understanding of the prophecy -- which I think was flawed -- but what matters is what Rhaegar believed). So the question is if Rhaegar is set on taking a second wife and if Rhaegar needs a third child -- what is the best way to do it?

Rhaegar knows from Targ history that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission (e.g., Jaehaerys and Shaera secretly marry and get away with it. Other Targs ask for permission to marry someone and they get turned down).  But a marriage can be questioned if not consummated. A child is pretty good proof of consummation. Also, with a child -- trying to dissolve the marriage becomes more complicated -- and questioning the marriage due to it being polygamous also becomes more complicated.

And as KVT IV points out -- Aerys seemingly had a soft spot for Rhaegar. I think Rhaegar had a sense of how to push his father and what he could get away with. 

The bottom line really is this -- I have seen no better explanation for why Rhaegar and Lyanna stayed away so long - and stayed where they did. They cannot stay at ToJ forever. But they chose to stay away for quite a while. So there must be some reason they stayed in hiding -- and stayed in a place that they clearly could not stay forever. The best theory that I can come up with is that they were waiting for Aerys to cool down -- and thought coming back to KL in a way that made it clear that Aerys had to either accept the situation or take drastic measures was their best of all the bad alternatives.

4 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

That's why I'm asking because your theory definitely points out there is a high chance Rhaegar would have disowned his children.

You just have to look at how he chose to reward Lyanna a girl he barely knew over his wife humiliaiting her in the process because he probably thought her more deserving of that crown that his 'simple' wife.

In that case why wouldn't he reward his son the savior of the world with the throne since on top of his 'godly' status he is the son of his love with a significantly better military backing than the Martells.

Honestly with all of this how would Aegon still be the heir and in that case how could Elia be part of that plan.

I really don't think he was going to disinherit at all. They were the other two heads in his mind. I think he planned to raise his three children as #TeamTarg and #TeamThreeHeadsOfTheDragon to prepare them for the coming battle of which they needed to act to save the world (the War for the Dawn 2.0). Having Aegon as the King and Jon as TPTWP would still work fine for that goal. 

I really don't think he was considering his actions in the way you suppose. He obviously misjudged how the crowning would look -- but there is no indication that Rhaegar intended to have a sexual relationship with Lyanna at that time. I just don't think it can be extrapolated to mean Rhaegar would prefer Jon over Aegon as King. There is just no natural connection between the two.

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You aware that Lyanna was most likely KotLT, so there was way more behind the crowning than mere looks, right?

So what? you have to publicly humiliate your wife to reward a woman's bravery by giving her beautiful roses and naming her your queen of love and beauty? Is it Queen of love and beauty or medal of bravery and honor?

Is this how people reward brave people in your country?

[Jon Snow Nothing]

5 hours ago, redtree said:

Very nice comparison, except it only take seconds between that bullet reaching your brain while women has more than one second to drink moontea after sex. And you haven't answer my question, how many women who had moon tea and got pregnant anyway ? That should speak of the effetiveness of moon tea

Ok now i believe you just ignore my previous post. Moon tea is effective to prevent pregnancy, and if she get pregnant, count moon tea again, or tansy or cleansing woman
 

So far from what i've read the odd is rather excellent.
And how do you know the Maester's method ? GRRM has never explained how it's done in westeros. Hell there were no thing that were as effective as moon tea back then
 

No it's not. I'm too tired to retype my argument 

If Moon Tea, Tansy, Cleansing Woman or Maester's method is so effective, why did nobody think of poor Lollys Stokeworth after she got raped by 100 men?

[Kal-L]

1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I am not sure I understand your point. The dragon must have three heads -- Rhaegar believes. Rhaegar also seems to believe his children will be the three heads. Elia cannot -- so Rhaegar needs someone to produce the third head. Does it have to be Lyanna? No. But does Rhaegar want it to be Lyanna -- apparently so. 

And I gave a few reasons as to why Rhaegar would chose Lyanna as the mother of the third head (and possibly TPTWP). Do you want me to go through these reasons again?

That's not what the posters whom I was responding to was saying. He stated that Lyanna had to be the mother of the TPTWP.

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

If Moon Tea, Tansy, Cleansing Woman or Maester's method is so effective, why did nobody think of poor Lollys Stokeworth after she got raped by 100 men?

Not everybody wants to get rid of a raping baby.

Just like not everybody wants to abort a baby with Down's syndrome.

 

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 27/01/2016 at 9:30 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Richard Stark inadvertently built a powder keg by setting up his children’s marriages> Lyanna and Rhaegar packed that powder keg by being TKotLT and naming her QoLB> Aerys lit the fuse by seeking TKotLT> And Rhaegar and Lyanna rolled it out in to the middle of Westeros by getting married and fleeing together to the Tower of Joy.

I agree with most of what you wrote, except the marriage, that doesn't make too much sense to me, or marriage being prior to Jon being conceived..  and no, no Targaryen wedding cloak, this not makes any sense, especially if you think the marriage was right at the beginning and their meeting was coincidental.

If Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from King's men, he became a traitor too, so he had to search for hiding place for both of them, and it's possible Arthur Dayne knew of this place.

Concerning Elia: what if she was with Rhaegar only out of duty? What if she's a lesbian? What if she already knew Aegon would never be King, remember Aerys named Viserys his heir after Rhaegar died, and I think Aerys always planned this. What if Elia was sick and frial because of abortions made before she got married, and what if she knew she'd have trouble giving birth to the Prince's children? We don't know anything.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

Not everybody wants to get rid of a raping baby.

Just like not everybody wants to abort a baby with Down's syndrome.

 

 

And you think Elia might want to get rid of a baby if she got pregnant? A sister or brother to her children? If Elia's such a saint as you think she was, she might even try to have the child and die trying.

[Ygrain]

9 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

Definitely, I just don't find it a good reason to publicly humiliate his wife. What prevent the story to repeat once again (especially as this time Jon will be a true hero) ?

Your previous post made it sound as if Rhaegar simply overlooked his wife because his eye was caught by a hotter girl. This one makes it sound as if the reason behind the crowning didn't matter because it always resulted in Elia's humiliation. That reason, however, is exactly what makes the difference between repeating the story or not.

8 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Sometimes I wish I had your level of restraint.

Actually, it's the other way round - countless rounds of arguing with certain posters wore my restraint too thin.

[Kal-L]

7 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I really don't think he was going to disinherit at all. They were the other two heads in his mind. I think he planned to raise his three children as #TeamTarg and #TeamThreeHeadsOfTheDragon to prepare them for the coming battle of which they needed to act to save the world (the War for the Dawn 2.0). Having Aegon as the King and Jon as TPTWP would still work fine for that goal. 

I really don't think he was considering his actions in the way you suppose. He obviously misjudged how the crowning would look -- but there is no indication that Rhaegar intended to have a sexual relationship with Lyanna at that time. I just don't think it can be extrapolated to mean Rhaegar would prefer Jon over Aegon as King. There is just no natural connection between the two.

I'm curious to know what you mean by 'the way I suppose' because I only judge things based on what I saw and Rhaegar chose to reward Lyanna over his own wife Elia (unless you supposed Elia was par of it) due to her deeds he considers to be deserving. What would prevent him to do it again with his sons ?

[purple-eyes]

Just now, Jon Snow Nothing said:

And you think Elia might want to get rid of a baby if she got pregnant? A sister or brother to her children? If Elia's such a saint as you think she was, she might even try to have the child and die trying.

You jumped too fast. I thought you are talking about Lollys. I went back and checked again to make sure you are talking about Lollys.

Anyway, where did you see I think Elia want to get rid of a baby if she got pregnant?

But you did already think about this, no need for me to think:

2 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Concerning Elia: what if she was with Rhaegar only out of duty? What if she's a lesbian? What if she already knew Aegon would never be King, remember Aerys named Viserys his heir after Rhaegar died, and I think Aerys always planned this. What if Elia was sick and frial because of abortions made before she got married, and what if she knew she'd have trouble giving birth to the Prince's children? We don't know anything.

 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

3 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

That's not what the posters whom I was responding to was saying. He stated that Lyanna had to be the mother of the TPTWP.

I don't think you are understanding what he meant by that statement. What I think he means is that GRRM had to arrange for Jon to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna because Jon in fact is TPTWP -- the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. So GRRM had to arrange a way for them to get together.

Whether Rhaegar ever concluded that Lyanna would give birth to TPTWP is less certain. Maybe he did and maybe he only thought Lyanna would give birth to the third head. But if Rhaegar realized this connection of her being ice to his fire -- then it would explain why Rhaegar decided that his second wife needed to be Lyanna. If not, there are other possible explanations.

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Your previous post made it sound as if Rhaegar simply overlooked his wife because his eye was caught by a hotter girl. This one makes it sound as if the reason behind the crowning didn't matter because it always resulted in Elia's humiliation. That reason, however, is exactly what makes the difference between repeating the story or not.

Actually, it's the other way round - countless rounds of arguing with certain posters wore my restraint too thin.

I think you mean it wore your patience thin. Patience is quiet different from restraint. I can be patient and go over the same crap over and over again (until eventually my patience is worn out). Restraint, on the other hand, is harder for me. When I see a point made that I think is flawed, I usually feel the need to express my position.

[Kal-L]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Your previous post made it sound as if Rhaegar simply overlooked his wife because his eye was caught by a hotter girl. This one makes it sound as if the reason behind the crowning didn't matter because it always resulted in Elia's humiliation. That reason, however, is exactly what makes the difference between repeating the story or not.

How was it so important to have Lyanna rewarded with the crown of 'Love and Beauty' (seriously because I begin to think that it was a matter of life or death) ?

[UnmaskedLurker]

4 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

I'm curious to know what you mean by 'the way I suppose' because I only judge things based on what I saw and Rhaegar chose to reward Lyanna over his own wife Elia (unless you supposed Elia was par of it) due to her deeds he considers to be deserving. What would prevent him to do it again with his sons ?

What I mean is that I don't think he realized how humiliating it would be for Elia. He was thoughtless -- yes -- intentionally cruel -- I doubt it. What would prevent him from doing it with his sons is that I don't think he would have any reason to do it with his sons. I think Rhaegar does things for a purpose. I think he felt that Lyanna needed to get some sort of recognition for her achievement -- and the crowning was the only available method to him. To conclude that this action makes it likely that he would disinherit Aegon is just a huge stretch.

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

think you mean it wore your patience thin. Patience is quiet different from restraint. I can be patient and go over the same crap over and over again (until eventually my patience is worn out). Restraint, on the other hand, is harder for me. When I see a point made that I think is flawed, I usually feel the need to express my position.

Oh, my patience suffered considerable damage, as well, but I did mean restraint. I did not wish to become that which I had despised.

1 minute ago, Kal-L said:

How was it so important to have Lyanna rewarded with the crown of 'Love and Beauty' (seriously because I begin to think that it was a matter of life or death) ?

And why do you keep thinking about it in terms of "reward"? Whether Rhaegar acted on his feelings towards Lyanna, or merely admiration for her courage, it was one and only opportunity to get out of the line and declare something for which there was otherwise no place in his life of a dutiful and melancholic prince. Wanting to express something doesn't mean that he considered Elia unworthy like JonCon did.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

While GRRM works hard to ground the story in realistic behavior of characters based on how he has consistently presented them -- GRRM has not limited himself to "ordinary behavior" at all. Many characters behave in extreme or unusual ways. Whatever he may decide to have Elia do will be based on whatever overarching story arc GRRM is trying to put forth. But to assume that Elia would react in the way that a majority of women in the circumstance would act simply is not a useful way to analyze fiction. Her actions have to plausible given what else is stated about her. So little has been stated that GRRM has plenty of room to justify whatever behavior fits his desired narrative.

Extreme and unusual behaviour? Not so much, really - it's the circumstances that are extreme and unusual, their reaction might also seem so, but it's a product of relatable / understandable process most of the time. 

Also, the prophecy cult thing that has been hypothesized may not be very common, but still it is not an "out of the world" behaviour; such a depiction could be convicing, though it's not at all interesting IMO, and all its use in the narrative would be to portray Rhaegar in a better light at Elia's character expense, as I see it. Because no, I don't agree there's plenty of room: there are (supposedly) only two remaining books, the relevant characters are dead, they are not getting a POV so that they could give us an insight to their "unorthodox" mentality and make it an interesting read on top of it, and mostly because I do not believe that the author's desired narrative coincides to a certain part of the readership's desired narrative: I still need a narrative reason why and how the specific behaviour in question would be important to the narrative,  by those who propose it as a possibility, (because honestly, all the use that I can think of is to make Rhaegar look better) and I've got none except than that the author could, if he wanted to.