The missing pieces regarding Robert's Rebellion and the disapearence of Lyanna

[Anath]

I'd like to know what are the chances that with moon tea being generally effective, Elia would know of this many women for which it failed. We know contraceptives fail sometimes because we have modern statistics. What are the chances that in a world without those, with a generally working method, Elia would have knowledge of enough cases in which it didn't work to be scared enough to say, "Sure, there might be a second Dance of Dragons, I might be signing my son for a sixth Blackfyre rebellion but I know of 5, 10,150 women for which it didn't work, so I cannot take the risk?"

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

The point is at that moment, rgaefar did not think a child from lyanna is the savior. 

You know from later events, but he did not know. 

So for him, he does not have a reason to choose lyanna if he only wants to fulfil the three head dragon prophecy. At that moment, based on his judgement, any woman can do this, including Elia. (If she still can bear child, then rhaegar will stay with her to do this) 

It is completely a hind sight and different idea that jon snow was proved to be as savior later.

No one knows if he thought that at that moment, you just know that he didn't think that at the moment we saw which was afterthe birth of Aegon. We dont know what happened in between then and the "kidnapping" of Lyanna

[UnmaskedLurker]

3 minutes ago, Anath said:

I read what corbon wrote. I simply disagree. And I especially disagree with the notion that the maesters could be so sure that Elia would not make it to birth alive that they stated it as a fact. I also disagree that the authoritative sounding of the quote is something a maester would say if they were making a recommendation. Maesters would have said that she shouldn't bear any more children. The quote sounds like coming directly from the maesters and first, I don't believe they would know for sure if it wasn't a definite problem with Elia's ability to provide a child in the first place and second, if we accept it's a warning against pregnancy, it sounds like they were giving an order to Rhaegar or making a prediction. I don't think they would have ordered the Prince of Dragonstone anything and they had no way of knowing that he wouldn't try to get her pregnant anyway.

The difference between Elia and Rhaegar is that if that she can't risk having sex ever again (which is your point), that would give her an incentive to accept another woman because Rhaegar couldn't stay chaste till one of they died just because she died. The difference is that if she could have sex with him, he had no reason to seek it elsewhere. I see no reason to think this was the case. It only serves as an additional excuse to make the Rhaegar and Lyanna pairing more palatable. I don't believe Elia's sexual life was over and even if she was able to get pregnant, I don't believe she would not have preferred to take the risk of the moon tea failing (which we have no example for in the books) over the huge risk of a second wife, especially Lyanna.

I might have missed it in the multitude of replies and in fact, today I am no longer deskbound so I didn't actually read all of them as carefully as I should but ShadowCat asked you what's the point of insisting that the sensible thing for Elia was to accept Lyanna despite inwardly being against it when answering posts that refuted the claim Elia didn't mind the situation at all. A post whitewashing Rhaegar and Lyanna claims Elia didn't care at all. We reply that she might have accepted it but that doesn't mean she was OK with it. That she must have been scared and felt threatened. Then you come in, seemingly trying to refute it, and say it was the smart thing to do (we don't agree with you but that's beside the point) despite not liking it. What's the point? Does the fact that she might have been coerced/bullied/intimidated to accept the situation make the one who pushed her into it better?

You certainly are entitled to disagree. I know of others who also agree with your reading that Elia became infertile and not that she risked death to have a third child. But again, I am not trying to paint Rhaegar as a good guy or a bad buy. I merely am speculating on what GRRM might be suggesting happened (and hopefully will clarify in future books). By telling Rhaegar -- Elia would have no more children -- assuming it meant she would die trying to give birth and almost certainly the child would die as well -- then it is not an order to Rhaegar at all. It is a description of the state of Elia's health. 

Here is where we see things completely differently. I don't agree that Rhaegar would be better able to justify to Elia that he needed to have a second wife if Elia cannot risk pregnancy. The second wife has NOTHING to do with Rhaegar's need for sex (he can have a mistress for that -- many Kings and Princes did) -- it is about the need for the third head of a dragon -- the need for another legitimate child. In either case, Elia cannot give that to Rhaegar. Rhaegar would use THAT reason as the reason he needs to have a second wife -- to Elia. And that reason is equally valid no matter the reason that Elia cannot give him a third child. You seem to think that as long as Elia can give Rhaegar sex that Rhaegar has less of an excuse to take a second wife. I simply disagree and do not follow that logic at all -- because it is not about the sex at all -- it is about the third head as a legit Targ.

I just don't see what Elia gains by trying to fight Rhaegar -- no matter what she feels internally. She would know she cannot change his mind. She would know she has little power to stop him. She would know that anything she did to hurt Rhaegar (e.g., bringing the King or her brother into the situation) would hurt her as well. No matter what she thought (and I am not supposing that she would not have all the fears you suggest she might have), her best choice is to accept the situation and try to be supportive. That approach would give her the best chance to stay on good terms with Rhaegar and keep as much of her position as possible -- and be in the best position to try to protect her two children.

[redtree]

26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

You act like it is not big deal to just get pregnant and then have an abortion of some kind

No i don't, i present it as an option. And between abortion or death, the former is a better option
 

26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

We don't know if moon tea always works.  We don't know if a frail woman could be harmed by the process of getting pregnant and taking moon tea.

I based my opinion on what's been written and what's been written only, and it's been described as highly effective which is why even wildlings, wood witches and Essosi use it. If i made a mistake then i'd change my opinion
 

26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to the "cleansing" process to which you refer -- the same basic issues as the moon tea -- but even more likely to cause health issues for a weak and frail Elia -- so might not even be an option. 

See, we have no idea how this cleansing process works in planetos, we don't know how invasive it is so Elia's frail state might or might not matter that much
 

26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

My point is limited to what Rhaegar might say to Lyanna and how the information of Elia being too weak to have a third child might affect the way that Lyanna viewed being a second wife to Rhaegar.

That's your main discussion with purple eyes, i specifically replied to your point that Elia could not risk having sex
 

26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to your sarcasm regarding your view of Rhaegar as a husband -- we don't know how Elia felt. Elia lives in a different time with different standards and morals. But certainly -- for many reasons -- Elia might be fine never having sex with Rhaegar again.

Well which was why i said if i had, if it were me, i didn't impose how Elia should feel. That is my personal view not a sarcasm
 

26 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I never said that Rhaegar was incapable of lying or incapable of going back on his word (even if he meant it when he said it). I was making a narrow point about how Elia being at risk of death from a third child might affect Lyanna and how Rhaegar would sell the second marriage to Lyanna. That is it -- that is the narrow point I tried to make -- not all the other points that some people have asserted I was making.

No, that statement wasn't a strike to you. 
It's just a translation of Rhaegar's possible action in your scenario, if he indeed sold it to Lyanna that way and not being true to his promise that'd make him a liar or promise breaker. I'm saying it just for saying it
 

[Jak Scaletongue]

48 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Exactly. Rhaegar can never be technically faithful to lyanna if he does not set aside (divorce) Elia. 

If Rhaegar still keep Elia as his wife for rest of his life, we have no idea if they will share one bed by whatever way over their lifetime. I would say they likely will, since life is so long and they seem to be fond of each other and they are husband and wife. 

Sure, I agree rhaegar and Elia would likely not have that type of sex without protection which will likely cause a pregnancy. But this is a small portion of sex life. There is something called moon tea. 

Of course, rhaegar can simply say, lyanna, I love you so much, I will refuse to have any intimacy with any other woman in the world over my life. This makes sense. But we have zero proof for this. 

The logic of that certain person is, rhaegar can say: lyanna, elia will likely be killed by one more childbirth, so I will only keep to your bed, so I am faithful! 

This is not a reasonable logic. 

Rhaegar can only say: elia will likely be killed by one more pregnancy, therefore I can not have that certain type of sex with her. But I love you so much, so I will refuse to share bed with her to have any type of sex. So I only keep to your bed and I am faithful. 

A lethal pregnancy is not a reason for no sex.  

 

 

He IS capable of lying though - just because he TELLS her he's going to be "faithful" doesn't mean he HAS to.  And maybe he's playing a bit of a mind game - "Yes, I'll be faithful and never sleep with a woman who isn't my wife..." leaves open the possibility of Lyanna taking one meaning (He'll be faithful to me) while Rhaegar's thinking (There!  Elia's my wife, so technically I'm not lying...).  He can make all sorts of promises, but that doesn't mean he's required to keep all of them.  Even oh, so honorable Ned can play with wording so he's not technically lying to Robert on Robert's death bed. 

 

As for whether a lethal pregnancy is not a reason for sex all depends on the person, really.  Some women may feel it's worth the risk to rely on moon tea and abortions, other women may not.  And we do not have enough information about Elia to determine which type of woman she would be.  If she thoroughly enjoys sex with her husband, she may risk it - if she hates sex with her husband, she may not risk any sex at all.  But while moon tea *seems* to be 100% effective, I find that hard to believe - nothing's 100% and EVERYTHING carries some sort of risk.  Maybe she's allergic to moon tea.  Maybe a bad dose could cause her to bleed out, like a home-made attempt can IRL.  But not having sex is a 100% guarantee she doesn't get pregnant - she can still die from any number of other things, but if she completely abstains from sex then she's guaranteed to not die in pregnancy or childbirth.

[Anath]

5 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I just don't see what Elia gains by trying to fight Rhaegar -- no matter what she feels internally. She would know she cannot change his mind. She would know she has little power to stop him. She would know that anything she did to hurt Rhaegar (e.g., bringing the King or her brother into the situation) would hurt her as well. No matter what she thought (and I am not supposing that she would not have all the fears you suggest she might have), her best choice is to accept the situation and try to be supportive. That approach would give her the best chance to stay on good terms with Rhaegar and keep as much of her position as possible -- and be in the best position to try to protect her two children.

That's a point I could tentatively agree with. But I see no reason in bringing it up at all. It had nothing with the points we were making. We were answering claims that Elia was totally fine, that she didn't give a fig, that she didn't care. The original post was all about glossing over the complications for her. That was the entire point we were making.

[purple-eyes]

26 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

No one knows if he thought that at that moment, you just know that he didn't think that at the moment we saw which was afterthe birth of Aegon. We dont know what happened in between then and the "kidnapping" of Lyanna

Sure I agree. He may possibly change his mind after that. But there is no proof for this. 

Based on my educated guess, it is more likely that he did not change his mind. 

Because he already knew lyanna for quite some time and already knew house stark long time ago and very likely already knew pact of ice and fire long time ago too. 

So if he did not change his mind over such long time, then it is likely he still thought aegon is the one. 

Do not forget he used a red comet as the indicator for aegon. This may be something very important and decisive for him. 

But it is also possible that green men or ghost of high heart told him later: hey, you are wrong, lyanna is the one who can bring this child! 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 minutes ago, redtree said:

No i don't, i present it as an option. And between abortion or death, the former is a better option

 

Let me try to make one clarifying point on this one sub-issue you present. Yes, abortion is better than death. But my point is that abstention is also an option and certainly could be viewed by Elia as the best choice of the three.

But again, this issue is more or less irrelevant to my point. My point is that regarding Rhaegar and Elia -- the issue is not sex but the ability to give Rhaegar a third child -- Elia cannot -- so Rhaegar believes he needs a second wife. This position would be equally valid whether Elia is infertile or would die in childbirth (likely taking the child with her in death). So the ability to take moon tea has nothing to do with any conversation that might have occurred with Elia.

As to why the distinction might matter in respect of a conversation between Rhaegar and Lyanna -- the infertility angle does not allow Rhaegar to sell Lyanna on being "faithful" to her -- whereas if Elia is at risk of death if she got pregnant -- Rhaegar might tell Lyanna that he never plans to have sex with Elia again in part because it could kill her. I am not saying that Lyanna could not have counter arguments (blow jobs -- moon tea, etc.). I am merely saying that a young man trying to make a teenager feel better about being a second wife certainly could use that line of argument to get her more comfortable with the arrangement. I am not saying that technically it is true or that Rhaegar could never have sex with Elia under any circumstances and in any way ever again.

6 minutes ago, Anath said:

That's a point I could tentatively agree with. But I see no reason in bringing it up at all. It had nothing with the points we were making. We were answering claims that Elia was totally fine, that she didn't give a fig, that she didn't care. The original post was all about glossing over the complications for her. That was the entire point we were making.

Yes, that is my mistake in coming in the middle of a discussion thinking I know the context when I don't. Might Elia have been fine with Rhaegar taking a second wife -- I can only imagine that would be true if she became as convinced of the importance of the prophecy as Rhaegar. Under that circumstance -- if she really believed that the future of the entire planet hinged on Rhaegar marrying a second wife and giving birth to the third head -- then under that circumstance she might support it. Otherwise -- not so much. 

But again, I was reacting to something that was written suggesting that it was in Elia's interest to actively try to block Rhaegar from taking a second wife. Whatever the context of that argument -- I simply doubt it actually would be in her interest to do so -- no matter how she felt. And it seems like you are at least somewhat agreeing with that point.

[Anath]

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Yes, that is my mistake in coming in the middle of a discussion thinking I know the context when I don't. Might Elia have been fine with Rhaegar taking a second wife -- I can only imagine that would be true if she became as convinced of the importance of the prophecy as Rhaegar. Under that circumstance -- if she really believed that the future of the entire planet hinged on Rhaegar marrying a second wife and giving birth to the third head -- then under that circumstance she might support it. Otherwise -- not so much. 

But again, I was reacting to something that was written suggesting that it was in Elia's interest to actively try to block Rhaegar from taking a second wife. Whatever the context of that argument -- I simply doubt it actually would be in her interest to do so -- no matter how she felt. And it seems like you are at least somewhat agreeing with that point.

I am making that point. But that doesn't matter. The context was that we believe she was not fine with it, no matter what she ended up doing. The OP claimed that she was so welcoming that she might have even given Lyanna her own wedding cloak. And it was always us that you were arguing with. That's usually taken as an agreement with the OP points, in this case that just because Elia didn't love Rhaegar (I believe she didn't but if anyone reading it wishes to argue it, please take note that this isn't the point) she had no negative feelings whatsoever about a long abandoned custom being dragged out of the closet specifically to show the world that she wasn't enough. That  there was no political threat for her. That she was fine with it. (Later, KVTIV changed it acknowledging that there was a risk but he never addressed our point that Elia would be reasonably scared and against it if she could avoid it. This, his OP still stands. She was indifferrent or thrilled, not minding at all.) By only addressing this particular point and never the context we were making it in, you agreed with the OP that it was all suns and roses for Elia because she didn't love Rhaegar.

The main point was that the reasonable thing for Elia would be not to be OK with it in her heart, no matter what she ended up doing. That it probably ended up causing her a good deal of worry, not smiles, well-wishes and relief that now Rhaegar had another wife to turn to (also a point of KVTIV's)

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, Anath said:

I am making that point. But that doesn't matter. The context was that we believe she was not fine with it, no matter what she ended up doing. The OP claimed that she was so welcoming that she might have even given Lyanna her own wedding cloak. And it was always us that you were arguing with. That's usually taken as an agreement with the OP points, in this case that just because Elia didn't love Rhaegar (I believe she didn't but if anyone reading it wishes to argue it, please take note that this isn't the point) she had no negative feelings whatsoever about a long abandoned custom being dragged out of the closet specifically to show the world that she wasn't enough. That  there was no political threat for her. That she was fine with it. (Later, KVTIV changed it acknowledging that there was a risk but he never addressed our point that Elia would be reasonably scared and against it if she could avoid it. This, his OP still stands. She was indifferrent or thrilled, not minding at all.) By only addressing this particular point and never the context we were making it in, you agreed with the OP that it was all suns and roses for Elia because she didn't love Rhaegar.

Sorry. I did not mean to give that impression -- my mistake.

I think if you go back, however, you will never see me specifically arguing that Elia likely was perfectly happy for Rhegar to take a second wife. I should have made it clearer that I was not arguing in support of that particular point.

While I agree with most of what KVT IV wrote, I don't agree 100%. In fact, we have had other areas of disagreement as well -- I would say we agree about 80% of the time -- but certainly not 100% (and we have had a long-standing and on-going debate on what Jon's original "Targ" name likely was).

I am skeptical that Elia would have given her wedding cloak -- other than as part of a strategy to keep herself in Rhaegar's good graces. As I noted above, the only circumstance I could see Elia supporting the marriage to Lyanna whole-heartedly is if she believes the prophecy in the way Rhaegar does. And I am not assuming that she does.

As to what would be Elia's best strategy assuming she objected to the marriage -- we have gone over that enough. I am not sure if we agree or not -- but the answer is such a judgment call -- who knows?

[redtree]

20 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Let me try to make one clarifying point on this one sub-issue you present. Yes, abortion is better than death. But my point is that abstention is also an option and certainly could be viewed by Elia as the best choice of the three.

Sure an option, but if that option is based on "sex could kill her" which you did say than i'd argue to counter that reason with statements i've posted. I see your point (that particular one), i just disagree with it

[purple-eyes]

17 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

He IS capable of lying though - just because he TELLS her he's going to be "faithful" doesn't mean he HAS to.  And maybe he's playing a bit of a mind game - "Yes, I'll be faithful and never sleep with a woman who isn't my wife..." leaves open the possibility of Lyanna taking one meaning (He'll be faithful to me) while Rhaegar's thinking (There!  Elia's my wife, so technically I'm not lying...).  He can make all sorts of promises, but that doesn't mean he's required to keep all of them.  Even oh, so honorable Ned can play with wording so he's not technically lying to Robert on Robert's death bed. 

 

As for whether a lethal pregnancy is not a reason for sex all depends on the person, really.  Some women may feel it's worth the risk to rely on moon tea and abortions, other women may not.  And we do not have enough information about Elia to determine which type of woman she would be.  If she thoroughly enjoys sex with her husband, she may risk it - if she hates sex with her husband, she may not risk any sex at all.  But while moon tea *seems* to be 100% effective, I find that hard to believe - nothing's 100% and EVERYTHING carries some sort of risk.  Maybe she's allergic to moon tea.  Maybe a bad dose could cause her to bleed out, like a home-made attempt can IRL.  But not having sex is a 100% guarantee she doesn't get pregnant - she can still die from any number of other things, but if she completely abstains from sex then she's guaranteed to not die in pregnancy or childbirth.

Exactly. We have no idea what attitude of rhaegar and Elia on their sex life. 

She may be a female Stannis. She may be an areianne martell. 

This is like car racing. We know there is a chance a car racer may get a fatal accident. But this does not stop people from doing it. 

With the current magic success 100 % rate of moon tea in this book, and also different ways to have sex besides the one can make you pregnant, It is unreasonable to claim elia will not want to have any sex with her husband or rhaegar will not have sex with his wife when they know bearing one more child will likely kill her. 

 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just now, redtree said:

Sure an option, but if that option is based on "sex could kill her" which you did say than i'd argue to counter that reason with statements i've posted. I see your point, i disagree with it

Just to be clear - your position is that (assuming having a third child likely would kill Elia) you think Elia would chose to take moon tea once a month and continue to have sex over abstaining from sex? Really just a question -- I am trying to make sure I understand your position.

[WSmith84]

Why would Rhaegar go into hiding with Lyanna, rather than merely telling her to inform Hoster Tully of Aerys' decision and then to go North and inform her father of the same, before finally chartering a ship and heading to, say, Braavos? Or just hiding somewhere in the North? Hell, she could go to Greywater Watch, where she'd never be found by Aerys. Even ravens can't find it. And Lyanna is a good friend of Howland's. Much safer than dragging her half way across the country, through territory where your more likely to be accosted by someone Aerys-friendly.

[redtree]

1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Just to be clear - your position is that (assuming having a third child likely would kill Elia) you think Elia would chose to take moon tea once a month and continue to have sex over abstaining from sex? Really just a question -- I am trying to make sure I understand your position.

I don't know what Elia would or would not do, but sex wouldn't kill her. Childbirth would, sex wouldn't

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

25 minutes ago, Anath said:

I am making that point. But that doesn't matter. The context was that we believe she was not fine with it, no matter what she ended up doing. The OP claimed that she was so welcoming that she might have even given Lyanna her own wedding cloak. And it was always us that you were arguing with. That's usually taken as an agreement with the OP points, in this case that just because Elia didn't love Rhaegar (I believe she didn't but if anyone reading it wishes to argue it, please take note that this isn't the point) she had no negative feelings whatsoever about a long abandoned custom being dragged out of the closet specifically to show the world that she wasn't enough. That  there was no political threat for her. That she was fine with it. (Later, KVTIV changed it acknowledging that there was a risk but he never addressed our point that Elia would be reasonably scared and against it if she could avoid it. This, his OP still stands. She was indifferrent or thrilled, not minding at all.) By only addressing this particular point and never the context we were making it in, you agreed with the OP that it was all suns and roses for Elia because she didn't love Rhaegar.

The main point was that the reasonable thing for Elia would be not to be OK with it in her heart, no matter what she ended up doing. That it probably ended up causing her a good deal of worry, not smiles, well-wishes and relief that now Rhaegar had another wife to turn to (also a point of KVTIV's)

In all fairness to me, the "Elia's Cloak" comment was not something I put forward as 100%, but rather a offhand comment of the origin of a Targaryen cloak (as I have no idea the complexity/ length of time it takes to get one).

This is what I wrote:

There are a lot of theories that have been bandied about, regarding what is in the crypts, but the one that makes the most sense to me, especially regarding the theory I have out forth that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married almost immediately after their meeting in the Riverlands, would be a Targaryen marriage cloak

(perhaps even Elias’?)

If Rhaegar had time to gather such a cloak, and had this plan in mind when he left, the best place to get such a cloak would be King’s Landing.

And it would be just as easy (or more easy) for Rhaegar to simply TAKE the cloak as it would be that Elia gave it to him.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

14 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Why would Rhaegar go into hiding with Lyanna, rather than merely telling her to inform Hoster Tully of Aerys' decision and then to go North and inform her father of the same, before finally chartering a ship and heading to, say, Braavos? Or just hiding somewhere in the North? Hell, she could go to Greywater Watch, where she'd never be found by Aerys. Even ravens can't find it. And Lyanna is a good friend of Howland's. Much safer than dragging her half way across the country, through territory where your more likely to be accosted by someone Aerys-friendly.

Because he is the 24 year old Prince with means and a retinue of guards. Why would he run off hoping Lyanna has a place they can stay when he has a bachelor pad down in Dorne that is set up for him to go to?

And if I am right, and the the marriage was a way to save Lyanna AS WELL AS stop a war AND take care of the Third Head that he is seeking to have with Lyanna, then sending her to Winterfell or Riverrun does not take care of the last two.

Aerys still is going to demand her head (leading to a war) and Lyanna cant give Rhaegar a third child.

[purple-eyes]

33 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

In all fairness to me, the "Elia's Cloak" comment was not something I put forward as 100%, but rather a offhand comment of the origin of a Targaryen cloak (as I have no idea the complexity/ length of time it takes to get one).

This is what I wrote:

There are a lot of theories that have been bandied about, regarding what is in the crypts, but the one that makes the most sense to me, especially regarding the theory I have out forth that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married almost immediately after their meeting in the Riverlands, would be a Targaryen marriage cloak

(perhaps even Elias’?)

If Rhaegar had time to gather such a cloak, and had this plan in mind when he left, the best place to get such a cloak would be King’s Landing.

And it would be just as easy (or more easy) for Rhaegar to simply TAKE the cloak as it would be that Elia gave it to him.

Right after your main post, you posted this:

"As far as the wedding cloak, it makes sense that he would bring one from King's Landing. It being Ellia's was just an offhand observation as I do not know exactly how hard it would be to find one/ have one made. Having already made and available (and maybe even a given to him by Ellia as a form of consent) makes sense. "

Based on your context about how Elia is willing to give blessing to R and L in your main post, I have good reason to believe originally you are hinting Elia gave it willingly as an approval.

You are not hinting us Rhaegar simply sneaked into her room or wherever the cloak was packed and took it without notice. This is something you later brought up.

I, and other poster, just simply want to tell you, no, it extremely unlikely that she would happily give this cloak to them as a form of consent, unless she is warged by Rhaegar. If she gave it to him, this is not a form of consent, this is just something she reluctantly had to do.

What the hell, why do not you just say Elia also gave her princess crown or circlet to rhaegar and let Lyanna use her crown to marry with her own husband? Isn't this a better proof than a wedding cloak?

 

 

 

 

[Jak Scaletongue]

37 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

With the current magic success 100 % rate of moon tea in this book, and also different ways to have sex besides the one can make you pregnant, It is unreasonable to claim elia will not want to have any sex with her husband or rhaegar will not have sex with his wife when they know bearing one more child will likely kill her. 

 

 

We don't know if it's "magic" - we have a small sample size.  As someone has already pointed out, you can't take the 3 or 4 women we've been told take/used moon tea and say that it's 100% effective.  The sample size is far too small to extrapolate it onto the wider world.  That's like saying the Pill is 100% effective because the 10 people I know who are taking it haven't got pregnant. 

Seeing as we know very little of either of these characters or their personalities, it's unreasonable to assume anything, really.  There are far too many scenarios - 1) we don't know how "creative" they were when it came to sex.  Maybe Elia would see something like a blow-job as "unladylike" and something only whores do.  Maybe Rhaegar sees it as something only whores do and wouldn't want his wife doing such a thing for him. Maybe, maybe, maybe. 2) Elia could *try* to refuse sex and still be forced anyway because it's Rhaegar's "right" to bed his wife regardless of her wishes.  This we know is FACT.  Married women (Elia included) have no right to deny their husband's sex in Westeros.  And while we have no evidence that Rhaegar *would* force her, we also have no evidence he wouldn't.  It IS his right, as her husband - he might behave like Tyrion with Sansa, not wanting to force her.  But since, as far as we know, he doesn't have the same trauma associated with raping a wife as Tyrion does, maybe he would require Elia perform her marriage duties.  He certainly wouldn't see it as rape anymore than any other husband in Westeros.  Just cause he seems like a nice guy doesn't mean he thinks like a modern one (and even some modern ones still think it's "not rape" if she's your wife...*cough* Trump *cough*). 3) Maybe SHE does want to have sex but Rhaegar isn't willing to risk her life by possibly, maybe getting her pregnant.  Maybe she doesn't want to have sex ever again. 

We just don't know enough.

In short, there are FAR too many maybes - WE can't know which of dozens scenarios would have/could have played out between them. 

56 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

This is like car racing. We know there is a chance a car racer may get a fatal accident. But this does not stop people from doing it. 

It does stop SOME people from doing it.  No one makes the same decision as another when faced with a high-risk activity.  Some people sky-dive, but you wouldn't get me up there if you paid me.  Wouldn't get me in a racecar either.  Just because Person A will continue to have sex and deem it worth the risk, Person B might not.  We have no indication, whatsoever, whether Elia would be the racecar driver or refuse to get into the car.

 

[Anath]

46 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

In all fairness to me, the "Elia's Cloak" comment was not something I put forward as 100%, but rather a offhand comment of the origin of a Targaryen cloak (as I have no idea the complexity/ length of time it takes to get one).

This is what I wrote:

There are a lot of theories that have been bandied about, regarding what is in the crypts, but the one that makes the most sense to me, especially regarding the theory I have out forth that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married almost immediately after their meeting in the Riverlands, would be a Targaryen marriage cloak

(perhaps even Elias’?)

If Rhaegar had time to gather such a cloak, and had this plan in mind when he left, the best place to get such a cloak would be King’s Landing.

And it would be just as easy (or more easy) for Rhaegar to simply TAKE the cloak as it would be that Elia gave it to him.

Yes, but I can't see Rhaegar as doing this. In the way you're presenting him, as never doing anything that hurt someone, I don't think you can see him as taking the cloak over Elia's objections.

It was clear to me that you meant it as a sign that she approved, a point you made clear in your next post. By the vibe of your posts, it's clear you think Elia's consent equals Elia's approval or at least her lack of inner opposition.