aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Ned told Arya that perhaps Syrio would agree to come to Winterfell, we do not know that he agreed or that Ned even got around to asking him at that point. The Kindly man does teach Arya how to fight by constantly attacking her with sticks, but that is beside the point, the FM do not go around getting into battles, they are assassins. Raw fighting ability is not their most important skill, and a skinny little girl is never going to be good enough at fighting to go cutting full grown men down. Other skills were more important for her to learn. Of all the FM kills we have seen(8)including Aryas, only 1 was in a fight, and that was not a kill Jaqen wanted to commit, Arya "forced" his hand to free the Northern prisoners. Even if Syrio was a FM, he would not have been in a position to take Meryns face because he had not spent any time around Meryn, he did not know the man and thus could not mimic his behavior. It would be too big of a risk that he could be caught. Last, even if Syrio was a FM, which there is no evidence whatsoever of, it would be far more likely that he surrendered or fled. I personally do not think the timeline fits for him to be Jaqen because it was Ned that gave Yoren his pick of the prisoners and I do not think he would have been able to go in after Ned was arrested. Imagine this convo Yoren "I'm here to take the prisoners" Guard "Who gave you permission" Yoren "1 of the prisoners." Guard "Go fuck yourself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Father asked if there were any knights in the hall who would do honor to their houses by taking the black, but no one came forward, so he gave this Yoren his pick of the king's dungeons and sent him on his way. And later these two brothers came before him, freeriders from the Dornish Marches, and pledged their swords to the service of the king. Father accepted their oaths …" Ned just gave Yoren pick of the dungeons... There is no evidence of how many people were in the black cells at this point Lord Stark wasn't giving any orders by the time Syrio could have been in the dungeons now, was he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thuckey Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I think this is just the "Lost" effect, not everything means something in this series. I mean there ARE a lot of connections... but sometimes things just are as they seem. Is that so hard to believe? And even if there are tiny things that don't make sense I think for the sake of the plot GRRM chose to just go ahead anyways. You don't have to overthink everything .. it is fiction after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 13 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: Ned told Arya that perhaps Syrio would agree to come to Westeros, we do not know that he agreed or that Ned even got around to asking him at that point. The Kindly man does teach Arya how to fight by constantly attacking her with sticks, but that is beside the point, the FM do not go around getting into battles, they are assassins. Raw fighting ability is not their most important skill, and a skinny little girl is never going to be good enough at fighting to go cutting full grown men down. Other skills were more important for her to learn. Of all the FM kills we have seen(8)including Aryas, only 1 was in a fight, and that was not a kill Jaqen wanted to commit, Arya "forced" his hand to free the Northern prisoners. Even if Syrio was a FM, he would not have been in a position to take Meryns face because he had not spent any time around Meryn, he did not know the man. It would be too big of a risk that he could be caught. Last, even if Syrio was a FM, which there is no evidence whatsoever of, it would be far more likely that he surrendered or fled. I personally do not think the timeline fits for him to be Jaqen because it was Ned that gave Yoren his pick of the prisoners and I do not think he would have been able to go in after Ned was arrested. Imagine this convo Yoren "I'm here to take the prisoners" Guard "Who gave you permission" Yoren "1 of the prisoners." Guard "Go fuck yourself." Holy shit, where to start... I assume you mean Winterfell not Westeros... But Syrio himself says it may be time to train with needle when they get to winterfell... And while I did share a chuckle at your conversation there... I think it's more like here is the paperwork give me the prisoners... Let's not forget that this turnkey doesn't exactly seem like a sharp initiative taking question the orders type... His coworker for years is literally just a figment of Varys's imagination... 12 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said: Lord Stark wasn't giving any orders by the time Syrio could have been in the dungeons now, was he? "The paperwork was in order" doesn't require Yoren actively picking up his prisoners on the day Ned gave him his pick... In fact you have to prepare the paperwork... And if you are going to drag a rolling cage all the way to the wall, would you pick them up any sooner than you had to? Point is none of this is limiting to the timeline... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Thuckey said: I think this is just the "Lost" effect, not everything means something in this series. I mean there ARE a lot of connections... but sometimes things just are as they seem. Is that so hard to believe? And even if there are tiny things that don't make sense I think for the sake of the plot GRRM chose to just go ahead anyways. You don't have to overthink everything .. it is fiction after all. Hey I appreciate the sentiment, you very may well be right... But then again you are on a conspiracy forum, sooooo not sure what you are expecting I just enjoy thinking about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Lark Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said: Lord Stark wasn't giving any orders by the time Syrio could have been in the dungeons now, was he? Exactly, besides that, Yoren took Rorge and Biter out of the dungeons..... If he was seriously that desperate for men, you can bet he emptied every last black cell. If there had been more men down there, we would have known about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirex Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said: You make a couple of assumptions 1: that syrio came to KL just for Arya. He was already there. Ned did not send to essos for an instructor 2: Ser Meryn is still alive at the end of Dance so that means a faceless man is just hanging about as a member of the king's guard 3: Syrio is not a faceless man. He was the First Sword of Bravos. Faceless men have people to kill. We see this with Jaqen. He does his duties and moves on. Well, if Syrio isn't connected to the Faceless Men, then why doesn't the Kindly Man trouble himself with teaching Arya some ninja skills? You know, she is going to be an assassin, and if changing your face and becoming a master liar is what it takes to be a faceless man, then why didn't Jaqen choose Hot Pie as an apprentice? I was always disappointed by the training Arya got through in the house of black and white. I was expecting some training we see fighting trainings between the apprentice girl and her master, but then I realized that the assassins have already given her her first lessons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 This Jaquen being in the dungeons at all drives me crazy. he can change his face to whatever he wants he wants. He could then theoretically leave whenever he wants. Hell, if he wanted to get in touch with Arya that badly he could pretend to be Sansa/Ned. Staying in the dungeons because he knew Yoren would pick him and therefore travel with Arya (chained mind you) is crazy and way too difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, tallTale said: This Jaquen being in the dungeons at all drives me crazy. he can change his face to whatever he wants he wants. He could then theoretically leave whenever he wants. Hell, if he wanted to get in touch with Arya that badly he could pretend to be Sansa/Ned. Staying in the dungeons because he knew Yoren would pick him and therefore travel with Arya (chained mind you) is crazy and way too difficult. Well the best I can come up with for Jaquen being in the cells, regardless of your feelings about Syrio, is it was an escape plan, he was there to kill Ned if Ned was aloud to take the black, or he was legit captured at some point. I find the last of these to be the least likely, but that's me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: "The paperwork was in order" doesn't require Yoren actively picking up his prisoners on the day Ned gave him his pick... In fact if you are going to drag a rolling cage all the way to the wall, would you pick them up any sooner than you had to? Point is none of this is limiting to the timeline... So the jailer doesn't comment on the fact that he was forced to free the servant (Syrio-Jaqen) of a man (Ned), when that man was locked up in the jailer's own cells at the time the jailer followed it? He bitched about the orders, and his entire character is of someone who likes to talk too much, but he didn't think to mention this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Well the best I can come up with for Jaquen being in the cells, regardless of your feelings about Syrio, is it was an escape plan, he was there to kill Ned if he was aloud to take the black, or he was legit captured at some point. I find the last of these to be the least likely, but that's me... How did he even know that Yoren was looking for people at that exact moment? He can escape whenever he wants. That is a terrible escape plan anyways, all three of those characters were probably getting hanged soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirex Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, tallTale said: This Jaquen being in the dungeons at all drives me crazy. he can change his face to whatever he wants he wants. He could then theoretically leave whenever he wants. Hell, if he wanted to get in touch with Arya that badly he could pretend to be Sansa/Ned. Staying in the dungeons because he knew Yoren would pick him and therefore travel with Arya (chained mind you) is crazy and way too difficult. But it is safe to say that his intention was to go to the wall, become a friend with Jon and manupilate him to become an assassin, the way he did with Arya (Jon would want nothing more than changing his face and go kill him some lannisters) But he lost contact with Jon during the second book, because Jon and Ghost passed the wall (well, this is my assumption that the wall's spell stopped Jaqen from reaching him), so he turned to Arya instead, who was not as a good fighter as Jon, but she also had powerfull warging ability, which is the main necessity to be a faceless man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I find it hard to swallow that it was Syrio who beat up Sansa at Joffrey's command, who laughed at Selmy as he was being stripped of his white cloak, who became a loyal Lannister retainer following the butchery at the Hand's tower... It just doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, FuzzyJAM said: So the jailer doesn't comment on the fact that he was forced to free the servant (Syrio-Jaqen) of a man (Ned), when that man was locked up in the jailer's own cells at the time the jailer followed it? He bitched about the orders, and his entire character is of someone who likes to talk too much, but he didn't think to mention this? Wait wait wait, we don't know what the hell this guy knew... Did he know the history and reason for imprissonment of every prisoner? I have no idea, for all I know they are just given numbers. but I have enough trouble trying to make sense of the main characters motives without trying to figure out why the dumb drunk ass jailor didn't ask more questions... Or why Yoren was aloud to leave Kings landing at all, only to be run down by the queens men just a little later... Shit was a mess, Yoren took the paperwork he got from Ned and bailed hard... Managing to take the ex-hand's daughter, the ex-King's bastard, a faceless man, and a fucking hot pie with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Holy shit, where to start... I assume you mean Winterfell not Westeros... But Syrio himself says it may be time to train with needle when they get to winterfell... And while I did share a chuckle at your conversation there... I think it's more like here is the paperwork give me the prisoners... Let's not forget that this turnkey doesn't exactly seem like a sharp initiative taking question the orders type... His coworker for years is literally just a figment of Varys's imagination... "The paperwork was in order" doesn't require Yoren actively picking up his prisoners on the day Ned gave him his pick... In fact you have to prepare the paperwork... And if you are going to drag a rolling cage all the way to the wall, would you pick them up any sooner than you had to? Point is none of this is limiting to the timeline... I edited, the westors winterfell thing immediately after posting, idk how you were even able to read through before I changed it. Syrio may have agreed to come, that is a rather small detail I may have forgotten. The real issue here is that you think a guard who proved to keep very orderly paperwork would overlook who signed the order. It would have been the same guy Jaime met who kept talking about his royal blood. His coworker wasn't a figment of Varys imagination either, it was Varys. In any event that guy kept very orderly paperwork and didn't even back down to Jaime's questioning, I highly doubt he would back down to Yorens. I just don't see that going down smoothly. Yoren tells Arya that he was prepared to leave sooner, but that he was told to wait because Ned would be coming with them. So it's not as if he got ready the day before the execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: I find it hard to swallow that it was Syrio who beat up Sansa at Joffrey's command, who laughed at Selmy as he was being stripped of his white cloak, who became a loyal Lannister retainer following the butchery at the Hand's tower... It just doesn't add up. True this^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said: Wait wait wait, we don't know what the hell this guy knew... Did he know the history and reason for imprissonment of every prisoner? I have no idea, for all I know they are just given numbers. So he knows nothing about his prisoners but he can still say confidently that it was a bad thing to free them? They're only numbers to him, he doesn't care to ask anything about them, but he knows that much and cares enough to protest because. . .um. . .reasons? Just now, LiveFirstDieLater said: but I have enough trouble trying to make sense of the main characters motives without trying to figure out why the dumb drunk ass jailor didn't ask more questions... Or why Yoren was aloud to leave Kings landing at all, only to be run down by the queens men just a little later... Shit was a mess, Yoren took the paperwork he got from Ned and bailed hard... Managing to take the ex-hand's daughter, the ex-King's bastard, a faceless man, and a fucking hot pie with him. How is the jailer a drunkard? The entire character we see of him is an ordered individual who takes his job extremely seriously. Yoren was packed up and ready to leave KL as soon as Ned confessed. In a surprise move, that didn't happen, and this meant Ned's deal with Varys (which seems to have included the safe keeping of Gendry) was off the cards. Yoren immediately left - not surprising if it took a little bit of time after such a shocking event for the Gold Cloaks to be told to follow them and organise a party and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Quote But it is safe to say that his intention was to go to the wall, become a friend with Jon and manupilate him to become an assassin, the way he did with Arya (Jon would want nothing more than changing his face and go kill him some lannisters) No it is not safe to say that because the faceless men do not need wargs to kill their targets. And if they wanted to get to Jon they could pretend to be someone from the watch without waiting in a dungeon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, tallTale said: How did he even know that Yoren was looking for people at that exact moment? He can escape whenever he wants. That is a terrible escape plan anyways, all three of those characters were probably getting hanged soon. I don't think I understand... Ned gave Yoren pick of the cells in open court... Everyone who cared, or heard what was said, would no he was going to sweep out the dungeons... If he can escape whenever he wants(from jail, KL, I don't even know) then I guess you have another motive in mind... I don't know who what or why hanging came into this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirex Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: I find it hard to swallow that it was Syrio who beat up Sansa at Joffrey's command, who laughed at Selmy as he was being stripped of his white cloak, who became a loyal Lannister retainer following the butchery at the Hand's tower... It just doesn't add up. It wasn't Syrio, it was Meryn, if you know what I mean. Just reading Arya's chapters we can see that they take the personality of the person's face they wear. Also because we never suspected that Meryn is not Meryn, makes me believe there is a master facekess man behind his mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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