LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I edited, the westors winterfell thing immediately after posting, idk how you were even able to read through before I changed it. Syrio may have agreed to come, that is a rather small detail I may have forgotten. The real issue here is that you think a guard who proved to keep very orderly paperwork would overlook who signed the order. It would have been the same guy Jaime met who kept talking about his royal blood. His coworker wasn't a figment of Varys imagination either, it was Varys. In any event that guy kept very orderly paperwork and didn't even back down to Jaime's questioning, I highly doubt he would back down to Yorens. I just don't see that going down smoothly. Yoren tells Arya that he was prepared to leave sooner, but that he was told to wait because Ned would be coming with them. So it's not as if he got ready the day before the execution. But it's likely he waited to pick up any prisoners from the black cells right? I mean just to save a second trip to the red keep... Honestly, we just don't have these facts and both of us are speculating wildly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirex Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, tallTale said: No it is not safe to say that because the faceless men do not need wargs to kill their targets. And if they wanted to get to Jon they could pretend to be someone from the watch without waiting in a dungeon. I think they are exactly searching for powerful skinchangers. Otherwise why would Jaqen choose Arya? If you'd say that because she was a good fighter and etc, NO! There were many children even younger than Arya and not only in Westeros, but in Bravoos itself, who could be 10 times better sneaker, fighter, liar than Arya. Skinchanging is the only explanation that how Jaqen used the dog to kill its master in Harrenhal. Well, about the dungeon thing, I'm not sure. He coukd actually take any man's face from the Night's Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 hour ago, tallTale said: The mere fact that a faceless man would be able to be captured and thrown into the dungeons (unwillingly) is very suspicious. They are best in the world at what they do, the city watch would never be able to apprehend them. It's really not suspicious at all. They're not omniscient invincible assassins. They can be caught, and they can be killed. The idea that a faceless man got himself thrown in the black cells because that was the best way to get to the Wall is really dumb. He could have just volunteered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Quote If he can escape whenever he wants(from jail, KL, I don't even know) then I guess you have another motive in mind... I don't know who what or why hanging came into this He chose the face of a man who was a murderer, ergo he would probably be killed soon- I guess beheaded would be better to say by the kings justice. So he took the chance Yoren would choose him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Zirex said: Skinchanging is the only explanation that how Jaqen used the dog to kill its master in Harrenhal. Nope. We are told in an Arya chapter that FM have basilisk blood which can be used to turn animals mad and it is all but stated that this is what Jaqen used to kill Weese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, RumHam said: It's really not suspicious at all. They're not omniscient invincible assassins. They can be caught, and they can be killed. The idea that a faceless man got himself thrown in the black cells because that was the best way to get to the Wall is really dumb. He could have just volunteered. I find it highly more likely he wanted to be there. Why I have no clue as just wanting for a free ride to the wall is not sensible. The faceless men are the most famous assassins in the world, but the lowly city watch captured one? Sorry don't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirex Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said: Nope. We are told in an Arya chapter that FM have basilisk blood which can be used to turn animals mad and it is all but stated that this is what Jaqen used to kill Weese. Oh crap! You're right. But still I won't believe that Jaqen chose Arya just because she has learned how to use a stick sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 It needs to be remembered that the real key to this business is Rugen, who is himself probably a faceless man. Its pretty obvious that Longwaters, the jailer, had no idea what was really going on and left Rugen to run the place just so long as the paperwork was in order. All that this took was Rugen, in his Varys persona, to learn that Lord Eddard was looking for a fencing master and lo, he recommends one wearing the face [and persona] of Syrio Forel. When it goes down Rugen gets him safely into the Black Cells, which he runs of course in order for Yoren to unknowingly get him out of the city as that H'gar character. Syrio Forel is dead and probably died in the House of Black and White long ago. The man who wore his face in Kings Landing and wore H'gar's face at Harrenhal is still alive as Pate in the Citadel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, Zirex said: Oh crap! You're right. But still I won't believe that Jaqen chose Arya just because she has learned how to use a stick sword She's a talented, extremely intelligent survivor who saved his life. Not that odd that he'd take an interest in her and think she might be worth sending to be trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirex Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 minute ago, FuzzyJAM said: She's a talented, extremely intelligent survivor who saved his life. Not that odd that he'd take an interest in her and think she might be worth sending to be trained. I don't like saving his life part tho. You dont really believe Jaqen was in dungeon because he was really unable to escape, do you? And even if he decided to manupilate her to become an assassin after sge saved him, then what was his initial intention? Why was he even there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 16 minutes ago, tallTale said: He chose a character that was a murderer, ergo he would probably be killed soon- I guess beheaded would be better to say by the kings justice. So he took the chance Yoren would choose him. No chance involved... Yoren took them all... 7 minutes ago, Black Crow said: It needs to be remembered that the real key to this business is Rugen, who is himself probably a faceless man. Its pretty obvious that Longwaters, the jailer, had no idea what was really going on and left Rugen to run the place just so long as the paperwork was in order. All that this took was Rugen, in his Varys persona, to learn that Lord Eddard was looking for a fencing master and lo, he recommends one wearing the face [and persona] of Syrio Forel. When it goes down Rugen gets him safely into the Black Cells, which he runs of course in order for Yoren to unknowingly get him out of the city as that H'gar character. Syrio Forel is dead and probably died in the House of Black and White long ago. The man who wore his face in Kings Landing and wore H'gar's face at Harrenhal is still alive as Pate in the Citadel. Hey with a little stop to push Balon off a bridge and ya... This is the gist of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 16 minutes ago, tallTale said: I find it highly more likely he wanted to be there. Why I have no clue as just wanting for a free ride to the wall is not sensible. The faceless men are the most famous assassins in the world, but the lowly city watch captured one? Sorry don't buy it. I'm reminded of the SSM where Martin's asked who would win between two people in a fight, and explains that he can't really answer. There are outside factors besides strength and skill (see Ned beating Arthur Dayne.) I think something similar applies here. Even the best faceless man can have an off day. You can't honestly tell me you think it's impossible he was captured while asleep or something. In the end he's just a man. Edit: and speaking of SSM's, this one's very telling when it comes to this bullshit. Quote I know I am not alone in this as my boyfriend tells me there is much speculation on the discussion board he uses that a good half a dozen characters may be Faceless Men or indeed the same Faceless Man. Some of my readers have livelier imaginations than I do. Well, I won't comment, except to say that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Questions_About_the_Faceless_Men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, Zirex said: I don't like saving his life part tho. You dont really believe Jaqen was in dungeon because he was really unable to escape, do you? And even if he decided to manupilate her to become an assassin after sge saved him, then what was his initial intention? Why was he even there? We don't know why he was there. We do know that Arya saved his life from the fire, however. You could try and argue he'd have escaped anyway and was testing Arya or something, but that's a real stretch. And given that he was going to die in the fire as a common prisoner, it seems he isn't quite as godlike as certain people like to suggest FM are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, RumHam said: I'm reminded of the SSM where Martin's asked who would win between two people in a fight, and explains that he can't really answer. There are outside factors besides strength and skill (see Ned beating Arthur Dayne.) I think something similar applies here. Even the best faceless man can have an off day. You can't honestly tell me you think it's impossible he was captured while asleep or something. In the end he's just a man. Edit: and speaking of SSM's, this one's very telling when it comes to this bullshit. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Questions_About_the_Faceless_Men As I said upstream these ssm quoted are not helpful or telling... I mean George is clearly not saying anything here... Sometimes a cigar is a fucking blunt show me text or give me gifts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: As I said upstream these ssm quoted are not helpful or telling... Ok...but that doesn't make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Quote I'm reminded of the SSM where Martin's asked who would win between two people in a fight, and explains that he can't really answer. There are outside factors besides strength and skill (see Ned beating Arthur Dayne.) I think something similar applies here. Even the best faceless man can have an off day. You can't honestly tell me you think it's impossible he was captured while asleep or something. In the end he's just a man. A highly trained man. Anyone reading the later arya chapters can see how much preparation they do and the knowledge they possess to make having an off day so improbable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, tallTale said: A highly trained man. Anyone reading the later arya chapters can see how much preparation they do and the knowledge they possess to make having an off day so improbable. Even if that were true, which I'm not conceding, surely you agree the man has to sleep sometime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, tallTale said: A highly trained man. Anyone reading the later arya chapters can see how much preparation they do and the knowledge they possess to make having an off day so improbable. We literally saw Jaqen almost die as a common prisoner to a simple fire. He's not a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Just now, FuzzyJAM said: We literally saw Jaqen almost die as a common prisoner to a simple fire. He's not a god. Exactly. Some of this thinking just boggles my mind. Syrio's dead. Accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirex Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, FuzzyJAM said: We don't know why he was there. We do know that Arya saved his life from the fire, however. You could try and argue he'd have escaped anyway and was testing Arya or something, but that's a real stretch. And given that he was going to die in the fire as a common prisoner, it seems he isn't quite as godlike as certain people like to suggest FM are Of course they are not invincible. Jaqen could've died there, 100% agree. But there is something strange in that part of the chapter, while everyone runs for their lives, out of nowhere Arya suddenly decides that she should save 3 scums from burning. So it shows that Jaqen's manupilative powers are incredibly high for a normal person/assassin. All the more reason I believe the skinchanging abilities of the faceless men. Or else anyone could join them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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