A Stab at the WOIAF Book Stark tree timeline - Pt.1

[Macgregor of the North]

Stark tree WOIAF timeline piece 1. 

I'm interested in Family trees, timelines, births, deaths, and general history so I want to try a piece on the Stark tree in the World book. This piece Follows the line If Cregan begins having children again soon after Mariah being born 140AC.

For this piece and piece 2 I'll do later to work I am going to assume that the MUSH date for Cregans birth in 108AC is correct, and if it's not 100% correct it surely can't be far off. It is quite believable actually as he goes to fight in the dance of the dragons which runs from 129-131AC. So I think MUSH assumes his son Rickon is born 128AC with Arra norrey possibly dying in childbirth so with an heir in place although no wife left, and the anticipation of Winter Coming, his obligations and desire to fight in the Targaryen war occupy his mind and off he goes. So. (Note, many of this is assumed and as it's impossible to say exact ages of when characters have their 1st child I think I'll go by a four year gap of when they are from 16-20 in most cases where they live a bit longer and have more than one child etc. for arguments sake).

 

I have edited a copy of the Stark tree from the World Book with dates etc. to accompany the text below. See link under.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3b3bf39q68cnfdw/stark%20tree%20done.zip?dl=0

 

70-72AC: Future Lord of WF Benjen Stark is born.

 

88-92AC: Future Lord of WF Rickon Stark 1st born son of Lord Benjen Stark and Lady Lysa Locke is born.

 

90-92AC: Bennard Stark 2nd son of Lord Benjen Stark and Lady Lysa Locke is born.

 

108AC: Future Lord of WF Cregan Stark only son born to Lord Rickon Stark and Lady Gilliane Glover in WF.

 

110-118AC: Bennard Stark and Margaret Karstark Marry and have three sons.

1. Benjen

2. Brandon

3. Elric

 

125-128AC: Betrothal and marriage of Cregan Stark to Arra Norrey of the mountain clans.

128AC: Rickon Stark only son born to Cregan Stark and Arra Norrey. (Arra Norrey possible death in the birthing bed).

 

129-131AC: The Dance of the Dragons- The Targaryen succession war. Cregan goes south to fight for the Blacks but is denied the opportunity. He very briefly served as hand to Aegon III Targaryen, dispensing justice in Kings Landing before returning North. Before returning Cregan secures a second bride- Alysanne "Black Aly" Blackwood, a famed fighter for the Blacks in the Dance.

 

130-135AC: A harsh Winter grips Westeros.

 

132-140AC: Lord Cregan and Black Aly have four daughters. Sarra, Alys, Raya and Mariah. Mariah being born in 140AC.

 

148AC: Rickon Stark 20 years old.

144AC-150AC: Rickon Stark betrothal and marriage to Jeyne Manderly and birth of two daughters Serena and Sansa.

1. Serena Stark likely born 146-148AC.

2. Sansa Stark likely born 148-150AC.

 

This is piece one of two on Stark timelines and this one will follow the path of Cregan Stark having children with third wife Lynara Stark very soon after the birth of his last daughter Mariah(140AC). Reason being he has obviously been trying for more sons and I can believe he would keep trying even if it means finding another bride to do so.

Lynara Stark could be a child of Bennards son Benjen although years are very very tight, Benjen would have to have been born a bit earlier possibly and have a daughter quite early and while it's highly unlikely and I don't quite believe it, its Not impossible though as it is Westeros. She could also just be another Stark from other Starks as she does not connect to Benjen on the family tree.

 

140-152AC: Birth of five children from Lord Cregan Stark and third wife Lady Lynara Stark.

1. Future Lord of WF Jonnel "one eye" Stark.

2. Edric Stark

3. Lyanna Stark

4. Future Lord Barthogan "Barth Blacksword" Stark.

5. Future Lord Brandon Stark. Likely born 150-152AC.

 

158-160AC: Betrothal and marriage of Jonnel One-eye Stark to Robyn Ryswell. No issue. Possible death of Robyn and maybe an infant in the birthing bed? Or a fertility issue with either?.

 

161AC: Death of Rickon Stark 1st born son and heir of Cregan Stark in Sunspear fighting in the conquest of Dorne for Daeron I Targaryen.

 

162-166AC: Betrothal and marriage of Serena Stark to Jon Umber. Ends with no issue. Possible young death of Jon Umber.

 

 

164-168: Betrothal and marriage of Jonnel One-eye Stark to Sansa Stark. No issue. Another red flag for a possible fertility issue with Jonnel.

 

164/166-168AC: Betrothal and marriage of Edric Stark to Serena Stark. Produces four children from possibly 166-174AC.

1. Cregard & Torrhen (Twins).

2. Arrana.

3. Aregelle.

 

Late 180'sAC: Old man of the North Cregan Stark dies. 1st son Jonnel becomes Lord.  After 2nd son Edric has his children he dies young(find out how and when) or there is some other circumstance arises that prevents him being Lord.It happens Before Lord Jonnel's death i'm sure. And Jonnels death follows after. Possibly in fighting. Could be against Skagossi, wildlings, or other foe from the realm?-(try and find out).

This sees Cregans fourth son to Lynara, Barthogan Blacksword Stark become Lord. Passing over everybody from Serena and Edrics line. Not sure if the twins are alive at this time, it is believed they die young men. Note:- Edric never serves as Lord so WF probably rules in favour of Barth over anybody from Edrics line, or Serena herself as Barth is next son in line from Lord Cregan and in times of rebellion and troubles etc. he would be looked on as a strong leader.

Barthogan himself should be in his 30's by now. Has no wife. No children. An insane name. Can only imagine he is a wild wolf more interested in arms and wars.

Barthogan Blacksword is confirmed to have died in a Skagossi rebellion which took place during the reign of Daeron II Targaryen who ruled from 184-209AC.

I am absolutely certain Barth dies in this either just before the turn of the century or early in the next and is succeeded by his younger brother Brandon, 5th son of Cregan Stark and Lynara.

 

This Lord Brandon Stark likely born 150-152AC.

Has a bastard with Wylla Fenn named Lonnel "Lonny" Snow possibly young at 15/16. Is then Betrothed and married to Alys Karstark 168-170AC. They have three children with last one born possibly 176-180AC.

1.Rodwell

2. Beron

3. Arsa.

Note Beron dies 212AC In his 30s.

Beron possible birth 174-178AC.

I'll put a small table here showing Beron birth and death age possibilities.

Born 174AC-Dies 212AC Age: 38

Born 175AC-Dies 212AC Age: 37

Born 176AC-Dies 212AC Age: 36

Born 177AC-Dies 212AC Age: 35

Born 178AC-Dies 212AC Age: 34.

 

Rodwell could be born around 172AC.

If so this sees Rodwell reach age for lordship around 188AC probably.

There is stories of Stark Lords dying in quick succession and its evident when we look at what facts we have. We have stated Barth dies from Skagossi rebellion, I think definitely  either just before the end of the 100'sAC or pretty early in the 200'sAC. From here we see Brandon become Lord, then Rodwell, then Beron up until his death in 212AC. I'm sure Beron had a few years as Lord but it is damn near impossible to give anything other than wild guesses at what times exactly the lords before Beron died. But we have Rodwell of age to be Lord around 188AC so upon Brandon's death he is ready to take up the Lordship.

 

188-2__??AC: Within this time frame Rodwell marries Myriame Manderly. Has no issue. Becomes Lord for a short time after Brandon's death. Dies, unclear how. His Brother Beron becomes Lord. And things could get a bit more stable in the Stark camp for a time with Beron being Lord for a while but it depends on time of Rodwells death.

Reasons for Brandon and Rodwell dying could also be Skagossi troubles.

 

If as stated above is true about Serenas children's birth years we can see them come to late teen age to marriage age around 188-192AC. The twins possibly die young men with no issue.(Im sure ive read this, Find source, Find age). And the girls Arrana and Aregelle are married to Osric Umber and Robard Cerwyn respectively.This is interesting because this could have both Arrana and Aregelle's children being of quite a mature age in 212AC and Serena could be causing quite a fuss for Arrana and Osric Umbers child to become Lord "IF" it's a son. Or if Aregelle and Robard Cerwyn has a son?. Serena actually has a good point seeing as her line descends straight from Cregans 1st son Rickon. However, I can't see the Starks in WF going for a Lord born with an Umber name or a Cerwyn name, or having/letting any kind of female run the show and call the shots at WF as we see Donnor then Willam become Lord after Beron dies from wounds from fighting Dagon's Ironborn. Note on the twins I'm going to put their birth around 170-172AC.

 

Berons marriage, Lordship and children next.

It's tricky picking an age of birth for Beron but I'll try and keep it open from 174-178AC.

If Beron born 174-178AC he could have his 7 children between 190-212AC.

 

I am going to assume Beron being alarmed at how much Starks have died and how much heirs are actually in place he marries and consummates with Lorra Royce ASAP. This actually binds a great Sourhern house to the Stark cause at a time where  I'm sure it's the Skagossi who are causing major headaches and possibly other foes also. And both houses follow the old gods so things are well with this Union.

Beron and Lorras children:

1. Donnor Stark- born possibly 190-194AC

2. Willam Stark- born possibly 192-196AC

3. Artos "The Implacable" Stark born possibly around 194-198AC

4. Berena Stark

5. Alysanne Stark

6. Errold Stark

7. Rodrik "The Wandering Wolf" Stark born a bit later than his first three brothers around 204-206AC maybe?.

 

I believe Donnor dies young only being Lord a very short time after his father Beron. His age at his fathers death possibly 18-22. Reasons could be Ironborn fighting also.

The She wolves succession squabbles could begin here before or after Donnors death or go on through the duration of both.If it's before, we have him being old enough to succeed his father but certain ladies in the family are against him becoming Lord. If it's after his death, which is possible if he dies very soon after his father then it's with no issue of his own which puts second son Willam in line for the Lordship. Or its both and D&E arrive amidst the females who have been passed over or ignored in favour of men to rule, now arguing over their right to rule whether or not Donnor is old enough, whether he is not of age yet(my second timeline piece which has Cregan have children for the third time later on can have Donnor being to young for Lordship), or even still arguing past his death to when Willam is next. It all happens that quick that I think D&E's stay at WF sees two Lords. I think it may end up that if Donnor is of age to be Lord then even though he is Berons 1st born son the females in WF who have been passed over before, namely Serena from Cregan and Arra Norreys line will stake a claim for her line. And I think the longer D&E stay there they witness the whole saga until it is decided Willam is to become Lord and he at least rules for a while until his death in 226AC but obviously D&E are way gone by then. I can actually see Serena having a massive say in all things involving rule at WF. She will still feel slighted from when Jonnel became Lord ahead of her upon Cregans death in the past when she had a strong claim to be the 1st ruling female of WF. Especially when her own Grandfather Cregan Stark actually supported the Blacks in The Dance of the Dragons to seat a female in Rhaenyra Targaryen on the Iron throne as queen ahead of her half brother Aegon II.

I could actually see her using that information in her argument for her right to rule.

 

There is massive debate over the content of the next D&E Novella and rightly so. The story which sees them come to WF amidst succession squabbles involving a number of very feisty females of House Stark who have earned themselves the label "She-Wolves" is a very very interesting topic.

We have Lord Beron dying from wounds taken by fighting against an Ironborn uprising led by Dagon Greyjoy.(212AC).

 

Back to timeline.

 

Interesting points here on Willam Stark(if we go by his birth of 192-196AC their is definitely a chance we can see a theory widely enjoyed and believed proved true.

192-196AC: Willam born.

208-214AC: Betrothed and married to Lyanne Glover. 1st Son Brandon born. Death of Lyanne glover in birthing bed. Arrival of Old Nan as wet nurse for Brandon. This puts Old Nan in WF not long before Dunks arrival with Egg(Interesting if you subscribe to the theory that Old Nan is kissing Dunk in Brans vision). Brandon dies at 3 years old 211-217AC.

This has Willam lose his father. His Older brother Donnor. And his son Brandon in quite a short space of time and close together, all while watching his family around him(mainly the feisty she wolves) argue and test the families loyalty and unity with an ugly succession struggle. We can now begin to imagine how close this is going to pull remaining members of Berons children closer together. Namely Willam and younger brother- The very interesting Artos "The Implacable" Stark.

 

213-214AC: Willam Stark possibly becomes Lord of WF as early as this if Donnor dies so quick. Sometime after the death of his son Brandon 211-217AC His Family encourage him to Marry again for heirs and to see him happy again.

 

214-222AC: Betrothal and Marriage of Lord Willam Stark to Melantha Blackwood. Birth of 1st child, a son, Edwyle. Birth of second child, a daughter, Jocelyn.

 

210-214AC: Betrothal and marriage of Artos "The Implacable" Stark to Lysara Karstark and the birth of their twin sons Brandon and Benjen.

 

Around 220-222AC: A teenage Rodrik now old enough and with no Lord prospects or duties in place begins his wanderings away from House Stark and WF.

 

226AC: Battle of Long Lake. Wildlings breach the Wall and invade the realm United under King beyond the wall Raymun Redbeard. Lord Willam Stark marches to Long Lake to deal with the threat. Is slain by Raymun. His younger brother Artos avenges his death and kills Raymun and the Stark forces along with Umber bannermen put an end to the Wildling invasion.

 

226AC: Under Artos orders, Willams son Edwyle, even in his extreme youth, will still be the next Lord of WF. Until he comes of age Artos will govern as Regent. Word is sent to Rodrik in Essos of events at WF and Willams death. (I mentioned the closeness built up between the brothers Willam and Artos over family loss and I firmly believe this is what moves Artos to hold Willams son Edwyles place as Lord and going by his name, reputation, and the whole vibe I get from this character I think nobody is going against this mans decision and he decides to  take Edwyle and Jocelyn under his wing and raise them).

Here is notes I had on Artos and thoughts on his name and character:

Definition of Implacable- apply it to Artos decisions at this time.

adjective

1. unable to be appeased or placated.

   "he was an implacable enemy of Ted's"

   synonyms:

   unappeasable, unpacifiable, unplacatable, unmollifiable, unforgiving, unsparing, grudge-holding; More

   • unable to be stopped; relentless.

     "the implacable advance of the enemy"

      

     Could this relate to how Artos was so set in his ways, so unappeasable, so relentless to stick to his guns on supporting Willams re marrying to have a son who lived to adulthood to succeed him as Lord. Even more so after avenging his brothers death and taking Edwyle under his wing to groom and nurture him for lordship. Even to the point of risking the wrath of his own wife who may have had high hopes Artos became Lord, making herself Lady of WF and possibly the scorn of his own sons in the future,  nobody could tell him otherwise, he was absolutely implacable in this. 

      

     This affection and solid dedication to his older brother and head of the family, as well as his battle achievements which saw him slay Raymun and end the wildling threat and his obvious leadership qualities in keeping the house in order while schooling and preparing Edwyle for lordship has in my eyes, as well as the Starks eyes firmly cemented his place in Winterfells crypts alongside the Kings of winter of old and the Lords of Winterfell. 

 

226AC-228AC: Rodrik gets word and returns after a few years travelling(short spell with the Second Sons included)to WF to grieve with Artos over their brothers death and govern WF together while Edwyle comes of age. When I think of Rodrik It makes me think of the GOT Telltales character Asher Forrester. Although there stories are different it's interesting to have a visual on a Northerner in Essos who returns home upon hearing word of nasty events concerning his close Kin. Funnily enough Ashers brother is named Rodrik.

 

228-234AC: Artos and Rodrik search for suitors for marriage to Artos' twins Brandon & Benjen, Willams son Lord Edwyle and his daughter Jocelyn.

 

231-236AC: A terrible Winter grips Westeros. The Starks would have knew this was coming. Another reason to arrange marriages and secure the lines and heirs of WF.

 

234-242AC: Lord Edwyle Stark is betrothed and married to Marna Locke of Old castle and their son the future Lord Rickard Stark is born.

 

236-244AC: Rodrik Stark meets and marries Arya Flint of the Mountain Clans. They have two daughters.1. Branda and 2. Lyarra.

 

236-242AC: Jocelyn Stark is betrothed and married to Benedict Royce of the Vale.

 

252-262AC: Branda Stark is betrothed and married to Harrold Rogers of the Stormlands.

 

Here I hit a gap as Rickard and Lyarras son Brandon is born 262AC So this would mean Rickard having Brandon at possibly as old as Mid-20's. This is not completely unusual but I wonder at the time it takes as Mid-20's is older than the norm. Did he travel?.Was Edwyle born a bit later and Rickard not get married until later? I think possibly the plan to betroth Rodrik and Aryas second daughter Lyarra to Rickard was in place for quite some time and maybe my dates for Lyarras birth are slightly off and she is quite a bit younger than Rickard so they waited until Lyarra became old enough. This could easily explain Rickard being mid-20's by Brandon's birth in 262AC.

 

 

262AC: Brandon Stark 1st child and son of Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark born.

 

263AC: Eddard "Ned" Stark 2nd child and son of Rickard and Lyarra Stark born.

 

264AC: Catelyn Tully of Riverrun born.

 

266/267AC: Lyanna Stark 3rd child and daughter of Rickard and Lyarra Stark born.

 

267/268AC: Benjen Stark 4th child and son of Rickard and Lyarra Stark born.

 

270AC: Brandon Stark fostered at Barrowtown with House Dustin.

 

271AC: Eddard "Ned" Stark fostered at The Eyrie in The Vale with Lord Jon Arryn where he befriends lifelong friend and brother like figure Robert Baratheon.

 

276AC: The Wiki States that Brandon Stark is betrothed to Catelyn Tully. She is 12 at the time.

 

281AC: The tourney at Harrenhal. All the Stark children attend. Along with Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon and Howland Reed.

 

281-282AC: Brandon learns of sister Lyannas disappearance involving Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. He rides to Kings Landing immediately accompanied by his squire Ethan Glover, Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce and Elbert Arryn before managing to seal his marriage pact to Catelyn Tully leaving Lord Hoster Tully incensed.

He arrives at Kings Landing demanding combat with Prince Rhaegar. Is arrested and held while Mad King Aerys Targaryen calls for Brandon's father Rickard and his companions fathers to answer for their sons crimes.

 

282AC: Lord Rickard heads for Kings Landing. Death of Lord Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark. Eddard "Ned" Stark becomes Lord.

 

282-283AC: Roberts Rebellion. Ned and Catelyn Tully marry. Lyannas Death at the tower of Joy. Birth of Jon Snow. Birth of Robb Stark.

 

283-284AC: It is believed Benjen Stark leaves for the Wall and joins the Nights Watch.

 

286AC: Birth of Sansa Stark 2nd child of Ned & Cat.

 

289AC: Birth of Arya Stark 3rd child of Ned & Cat.

This year also saw another Greyjoy uprising led by Balon Greyjoy. Ned called his banners to aid Robert and together they crushed it and made the Greyjoys bend the knee.

 

290AC: Birth of Brandon "Bran" Stark 4th child of Ned & Cat.

 

295AC: Birth of Rickon Stark 5th child of Ned & Cat.

 

297-298AC: While returning from Ned beheading a deserter of the Nights Watch the Stark children find and claim for their own, 6 Direwolve pups. Robb- Grey wind. Jon Snow- Ghost. Sansa-Lady. Arya-Nymeria. Bran-Summer and Rickon-Shaggy dog.

 

298-300AC: Ned becomes hand of the king.

Attempted murder of Bran Stark by Jaime Lannister at WF leaving Bran crippled. Jon Snow leaves for the Wall and joins the nights watch. Sansa and Arya accompany Ned to Kings Landing. Sansa Stark betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon. Death of Ned. Robb Stark becomes Lord of WF. Onset of the War of the five Kings. Robb proclaimed King in the North by his bannermen and King of the Trident by River Lord Allies. Betrothal and Marriage of Sansa Stark to Tyrion "the Imp" Lannister. Robb Stark marries Jeyne Westerling. Death of Robb Stark. Death of Catelyn. Sack of WF. Escape of WF of Bran & Rickon. Bran goes beyond the wall with Hodor, Jojen & Meera Reed to seek the Three eyed crow. Rickon is believed to have travelled to Skagos with Wildling girl Osha. Sansa and Arya's escape of Kings Landing. Sansa is at the Vale of Arryn under the care of Petyr Baelish. Arya eventually gained passage to Braavos by ship and is under the tutelage of The Faceless Men. Jon Snow becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. Attempted murder of Jon Snow.

 

Status of the six Stark Direwolves.

Ghost(Jon)- Alive, locked up at the Wall, unable to protect Jon during assassination attempt.

Grey wind(Robb)- Killed alongside Robb.

Lady(Sansa)- Killed by Ned on the order of Queen Cersei and a reluctant King Robert.

Nymeria(Arya)- Alive, grown to a monstrous size roaming the Riverlands with a huge pack.

Summer(Bran)- Alive, ever at Brans side as a protector and Skin for Brans Warg capabilities.

Shaggy dog(Rickon)- Alive, at Rickons side on his travels.

 

Any thoughts, corrections or missed facts are welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Macgregor of the North]

I have tried to post an edited image of the Stark tree with dates etc. but it wont work. I will try again another time.

[Macgregor of the North]

Here is an edited version of the World Book Stark family tree with dates etc. and list of ruling Lords in order to go with the text in the original post.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3b3bf39q68cnfdw/stark%20tree%20done.zip?dl=0

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Great work. I will say there is no reason why Bennard Stark could not have married before his older brother Rickon Stark or that his sons were born before their cousin Cregan. This would only mean that Benjen was born a little earlier than 70-72

 

Ellard, who went to the Great Council in 101, is likely the father of Benjen Stark and the great grandson of Torhen

[Macgregor of the North]

22 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Great work. I will say there is no reason why Bennard Stark could not have married before his older brother Rickon Stark or that his sons were born before their cousin Cregan. This would only mean that Benjen was born a little earlier than 70-72

 

Ellard, who went to the Great Council in 101, is likely the father of Benjen Stark and the great grandson of Torhen

Thanks. And cheers for the added info. Bennard having children earlier would lend support to Lynara possibly being Benjens daughter but I'm still not sold on that, aside from the fact she doesn't connect on the tree I just can't see it. I'm interested where she comes from though. 

Good add on Ellard. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Ellard, who went to the Great Council in 101, is likely the father of Benjen Stark and the great grandson of Torhen

Ellard may not actually have been the Lord Stark who went to Harrenhal in 101 AC. If I remember correctly, then Ran and Linda inserted that name based on a preliminary list of all the Lords of Winterfell they also happened to have, but apparently they were wrong there. I'm arguing from memory on that one, though, and might be mistaken.

[Macgregor of the North]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ellard may not actually have been the Lord Stark who went to Harrenhal in 101 AC. If I remember correctly, then Ran and Linda inserted that name based on a preliminary list of all the Lords of Winterfell they also happened to have, but apparently they were wrong there. I'm arguing from memory on that one, though, and might be mistaken.

The way the Wiki lays it out it seems they have it as Canon that Ellard was Lord of WF at the time of the council of 101AC and supported the claim of young Laenor Velaryon,  I don't know if it's been confirmed by George. 

Viserys was chosen in any event but interestingly its stated that upon the onset of The Dance of the Dragons following the death of Viserys, Viserys small council looked at the annals of the 101 council and they determined that the houses which had dissented during the 101 council were likely to support the claim of Rhaenyra in the Dance, which Lord Cregan Stark did.  

[The Wondering Wolf]

Hello again.

On 2.2.2016 at 10:16 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

1. Donnor Stark- born possibly 190-194AC

2. Willam Stark- born possibly 192-196AC

I'm still convinced that thesen dates are too early, but you know my reasoning here.

On 2.2.2016 at 10:16 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

264AC: Catelyn Tully of Riverrun born.

Catelyn was born in 264 or 265 AC, it can't be figured out yet.

On 2.2.2016 at 10:16 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

267/268AC: Benjen Stark 4th child and son of Rickard and Lyarra Stark born.

Benjen could easily have been born a few years later.

On 2.2.2016 at 10:16 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

297-298AC: While returning from Ned beheading a deserter of the Nights Watch the Stark children find and claim for their own, 6 Direwolve pups.

The first Bran chapter of A Game of Thrones is placed in 298 AC.

On 3.2.2016 at 0:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

Ellard may not actually have been the Lord Stark who went to Harrenhal in 101 AC. If I remember correctly, then Ran and Linda inserted that name based on a preliminary list of all the Lords of Winterfell they also happened to have, but apparently they were wrong there. I'm arguing from memory on that one, though, and might be mistaken.

Ellard was the Lord Stark at Harrenhal, but it wasn't his brother who wrote to the Citadel asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

39 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

 

I'm still convinced that thesen dates are too early, but you know my reasoning here. 

Why too early? Because of the lack of a male adult (Lord) Stark when Egg and Dunk eventually go and visit around 212ish?

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Hello again.

I'm still convinced that thesen dates are too early, but you know my reasoning here.

Catelyn was born in 264 or 265 AC, it can't be figured out yet.

Benjen could easily have been born a few years later.

The first Bran chapter of A Game of Thrones is placed in 298 AC.

Ellard was the Lord Stark at Harrenhal, but it wasn't his brother who wrote to the Citadel asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property.

I'm going by my own personal reasoning on Benjen that he is very close to Lyanna in age due to evidence in the books they seem very close as siblings and very close in age. 

This is just part1. In part 2 my dates of birth for Donnor and Willam are later. I'll pop it up soon. Both part1 and part2 work it's just how you view it and when it's all settled I'm confident one of my pieces will be close to George's work. I hope :-D.

cheers for the comments. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

21 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why too early? Because of the lack of a male adult (Lord) Stark when Egg and Dunk eventually go and visit around 212ish?

Yes, the She-Wolves deals with five Ladies struggling for power, which wouldn't have happened if there had been an adult son of Beron.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Yes, the She-Wolves deals with five Ladies struggling for power, which wouldn't have happened if there had been an adult son of Beron.

It is not a necessity that Donnor has to be to young for there to be a succession crisis/debate. What is a more important factor is whether the females(and let's be honest it's going to be Serena shouting loudest or I know about as much as Jon Snow!) think their claim is stronger than Donnors. 

It could just be a straight up struggle between Donnor and others trying to muscle him out of his inheritance.

Im not actually sold on Donnor being old enough but it's the way the piece worked out and is a possibility for sure. Part2 works out differently but I wanted to do each piece as I was interested how they would work out. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

Maybe Serena would have contested the succession anyway, but three other Ladies as well? I don't see that working if there is an adult heir. In my opinion it's much more likely that there hasn't been one.

Quote

He mentioned something about five Lady Starks running Winterfell -- the Wolf Women or something like that -- with four of them widows of a bunch of fairly recent former Lord Starks, and the current Lady Stark, whose 30-something husband is fading fast from a wound taken from fighting the Ironborn.

There is just mention of five Lady Starks running Winterfell, not of four ladies contesting Donnor's rule.

Of course I can't rule it out completely, but I'm doubting it.

[Macgregor of the North]

Wondering Wolf I am curious mate. What age do you place Donnor as upon Berons death? The table below helps.

I'll put a small table here showing Beron birth and death age possibilities.

Born 174AC-Dies 212AC Age: 38

Born 175AC-Dies 212AC Age: 37

Born 176AC-Dies 212AC Age: 36

Born 177AC-Dies 212AC Age: 35

Born 178AC-Dies 212AC Age: 34.

 

If born in 179-181 he can be 31-33 upon death. He has to be 30s.

he can still have Donnor at 16 years old if he and and Lorra try early which puts Donnors birth at around 195AC. And Donnors age at 17 in 212AC. 

[Macgregor of the North]

13 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Maybe Serena would have contested the succession anyway, but three other Ladies as well? I don't see that working if there is an adult heir. In my opinion it's much more likely that there hasn't been one.

There is just mention of five Lady Starks running Winterfell, not of four ladies contesting Donnor's rule.

Of course I can't rule it out completely, but I'm doubting it.

These Lady Starks are running WF probably because all the men are off fighting Dagon. This could include an old enough Donnor. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

Beron was born around 178 AC, though I tend to place his date of birth rather in 179 or 180 AC, but that's just my personal guess. Since I don't believe in Willam being of age in 212 or 213 (whenever the story takes place), he would have been born around 200 AC. A lot of male Starks seem to have fathered their first child at the approximate age of 20 (Cregan, Rickon, Ned, Brandon would have), so that seems to be a reasonable guess. In my opinion, Donnor wouldn't have been much older, thus born rather close to 200 AC.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Ellard was the Lord Stark at Harrenhal, but it wasn't his brother who wrote to the Citadel asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property.

Yeah, that was the issue. They were making guesses about that, and they were wrong.

I remembering tossing around the idea that Donnor Stark may have been a lackwit/mentally challenged, making it easier for the various Stark women and their factions to vie for control, stretching to the extent that Serena's faction might even push to oust the entire line of Lord Beron.

Donnor could then easily have been technically an adult but the actually ruling would have done by the people surrounding him.

There certainly is a lot of potential for hurt feelings, hatred, and backstabbing between the various Starks of this period. Lord Cregan's succession clearly became confused in the wake of Rickon's death in Dorne, and we have to keep in mind that Ran/Linda have told us that Black Aly's daughters all might have been married - George just didn't like to invent so many names -, adding more male players to the game of those days.

There could be essentially be two power blocs vying for control.

1. Serena Stark's faction, supported by the Umbers and Cerwyn (due to her own marriage and the marriages of her daughters), pushing the claims of her sons Cregard and Torrhen. Their goal is to oust the brood of Lorra Royce. Depending on whether Sansa Stark or Jeyne Manderly still lived, they could have been in that camp, too.

2. The other faction would either be headed by Alys Karstark or Lorra Royce herself, who most likely would have to deal with the great disadvantage of being southerner, possibly following the Seven, who wasn't really accepted as the Lady of the North. Myriame Manderly could have been in that camp or playing her own game, being pissed that she could continue the line of House Stark.

Unmarried Stark daughters and sister could also play a role, that is all difficult to say.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Beron was born around 178 AC, though I tend to place his date of birth rather in 179 or 180 AC, but that's just my personal guess. Since I don't believe in Willam being of age in 212 or 213 (whenever the story takes place), he would have been born around 200 AC. A lot of male Starks seem to have fathered their first child at the approximate age of 20 (Cregan, Rickon, Ned, Brandon would have), so that seems to be a reasonable guess. In my opinion, Donnor wouldn't have been much older, thus born rather close to 200 AC.

20 is not a definitive pattern of the line. Especially in War time. Robb was trying for heirs at 16. And at Berons time there were little to nil stark heirs. Picturing himself and Lorra waiting til he's 20 seems insane when he needed sons and quick. 

If we go that route though and Donnor is 12 at time of Berons death, then who vouches for him and how does he become Lord especially when the odds are crazy stacked against him becoming Lord? 

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that was the issue. They were making guesses about that, and they were wrong.

I remembering tossing around the idea that Donnor Stark may have been a lackwit/mentally challenged, making it easier for the various Stark women and their factions to vie for control, stretching to the extent that Serena's faction might even push to oust the entire line of Lord Beron.

Donnor could then easily have been technically an adult but the actually ruling would have done by the people surrounding him.

There certainly is a lot of potential for hurt feelings, hatred, and backstabbing between the various Starks of this period. Lord Cregan's succession clearly became confused in the wake of Rickon's death in Dorne, and we have to keep in mind that Ran/Linda have told us that Black Aly's daughters all might have been married - George just didn't like to invent so many names -, adding more male players to the game of those days.

There could be essentially be two power blocs vying for control.

1. Serena Stark's faction, supported by the Umbers and Cerwyn (due to her own marriage and the marriages of her daughters), pushing the claims of her sons Cregard and Torrhen. Their goal is to oust the brood of Lorra Royce. Depending on whether Sansa Stark or Jeyne Manderly still lived, they could have been in that camp, too.

2. The other faction would either be headed by Alys Karstark or Lorra Royce herself, who most likely would have to deal with the great disadvantage of being southerner, possibly following the Seven, who wasn't really accepted as the Lady of the North. Myriame Manderly could have been in that camp or playing her own game, being pissed that she could continue the line of House Stark.

Unmarried Stark daughters and sister could also play a role, that is all difficult to say.

House Royce follow the old gods so I can only assume Lorra is the same. She would be quite at home in the North I envision. 

If we go with thinking of Donnor being say 12 in 212AC then why/how does he become Lord with so many against him?

whats your thoughts? 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

House Royce follow the old gods so I can only assume Lorra is the same. She would be quite at home in the North I envision. 

If we go with thinking of Donnor being say 12 in 212AC then why/how does he become Lord with so many against him?

whats your thoughts? 

There is no confirmation that Royces follow the old gods, no. They are an old First Men house, that's all we know about them. I'd be really surprised if they still kept the old gods in the Andal-dominated Vale.

But even if Lorra would follow the old gods after she became Lady of Winterfell, she still would be an outsider in the North. Life in the Vale certainly is much different.

I imagine the succession of Winterfell will be the topic of the said Dunk & Egg story. What George has told about that suggests that Lord Beron might still be alive during it, dying slowly of a festered wound he suffered during the fight against the Ironborn. One assumes that Dunk & Egg will be drawn into the struggle between the factions, and it will fall to them to settle it/prevent open hostilities within and outside of the castle.

Could be a great or not so successful attempt for Egg to settle a conflict as a princely judge (could easily be that Egg doesn't steep so low as to not reveal his true identity eventually when dealing with the Starks of Winterfell).

I don't think many will necessarily be against Donnor and Beron's line, but important people who hold a grievance against the line of Lyanara and Cregan since the day their blood took control of Winterfell rather than Rickon's.

It could, of course, partially also be about who is charge of Winterfell during the new lord's minority or throughout his entire reign if he really is a lackwit as I think he might be.

If that's the case then Lorra and Alys Karstark could be rivals, and the other Stark widows like Myriame Manderly, too.