A Stab at the WOIAF Book Stark tree timeline - Pt.1

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no confirmation that Royces follow the old gods, no. They are an old First Men house, that's all we know about them. I'd be really surprised if they still kept the old gods in the Andal-dominated Vale.

But even if Lorra would follow the old gods after she became Lady of Winterfell, she still would be an outsider in the North. Life in the Vale certainly is much different.

I imagine the succession of Winterfell will be the topic of the said Dunk & Egg story. What George has told about that suggests that Lord Beron might still be alive during it, dying slowly of a festered wound he suffered during the fight against the Ironborn. One assumes that Dunk & Egg will be drawn into the struggle between the factions, and it will fall to them to settle it/prevent open hostilities within and outside of the castle.

Could be a great or not so successful attempt for Egg to settle a conflict as a princely judge (could easily be that Egg doesn't steep so low as to not reveal his true identity eventually when dealing with the Starks of Winterfell).

I don't think many will necessarily be against Donnor and Beron's line, but important people who hold a grievance against the line of Lyanara and Cregan since the day their blood took control of Winterfell rather than Rickon's.

It could, of course, partially also be about who is charge of Winterfell during the new lord's minority or throughout his entire reign if he really is a lackwit as I think he might be.

If that's the case then Lorra and Alys Karstark could be rivals, and the other Stark widows like Myriame Manderly, too.

There are more than one First men originated house in the Vale and the Royces date further back than the Arryns as kings in the Vale. Could be a difference in opinion here and I don't want us to get sidetracked but if you are an ancient first men house, more ancient even than your superiors you followed the old gods obviously before the Andals and their seven even came. And house Royce being as proud as they are(just read each characters text in the book, this is one proud house here) then you will still follow your old original gods for sure. Just like other southern 1st men houses like the blackwoods, you could never picture them forsaking their old gods. Anyways back to original discussion. 

i can even see D&E witness two men becoming Lord at WF, Donnor then Willam. Depending on if Donnor dies quick, I'm sure I've read that somewhere. And if Donnor has so much against him being Lord at a young age what is the opposition against Willam becoming Lord going to be like? And he is a second son. I can only imagine he is older by then and has shown some assertiveness or leadership qualities or prowess in war? 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

16 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

There are more than one First men originated house in the Vale and the Royces date further back than the Arryns as kings in the Vale. Could be a difference in opinion here and I don't want us to get sidetracked but if you are an ancient first men house, more ancient even than your superiors you followed the old gods obviously before the Andals and their seven even came. And house Royce being as proud as they are(just read each characters text in the book, this is one proud house here) then you will still follow your old original gods for sure. Just like other southern 1st men houses like the blackwoods, you could never picture them forsaking their old gods.

 

Sure you can, many, many Southern Houses pre-date the Andals (Lannisters, Hightowers etc) yet none still worship the Old Gods.

In the Vale the Old God worshipping minority became the Mountain Clans while it is more than likely that the Royces assimilated like every other Vale House.

The Riverlands was different with regular changes in dynasties and rulers. The Blackwoods have been able to maintain their religion with no real pressure to change.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

There are more than one First men originated house in the Vale and the Royces date further back than the Arryns as kings in the Vale. Could be a difference in opinion here and I don't want us to get sidetracked but if you are an ancient first men house, more ancient even than your superiors you followed the old gods obviously before the Andals and their seven even came. And house Royce being as proud as they are(just read each characters text in the book, this is one proud house here) then you will still follow your old original gods for sure. Just like other southern 1st men houses like the blackwoods, you could never picture them forsaking their old gods. Anyways back to original discussion. 

i can even see D&E witness two men becoming Lord at WF, Donnor then Willam. Depending on if Donnor dies quick, I'm sure I've read that somewhere. And if Donnor has so much against him being Lord at a young age what is the opposition against Willam becoming Lord going to be like? And he is a second son. I can only imagine he is older by then and has shown some assertiveness or leadership qualities or prowess in war? 

Well, the Lannisters, Hightowers, Durrandons, even the Gardeners took on the Seven to make peace with the Andals. And unlike in those other regions the Royces and their First Men allies were utterly destroyed during the Battle of the Seven Stars. Yandel tells us that it would take the Royces and the others centuries to climb back to a position of influence and prestige, very much suggesting that they all adopted the Faith of the Seven in the meantime.

As of now, the Blackwoods are the only house south of the Neck who still follows the old gods. But then, most of the ancient First Men still have godswoods with heart trees and such, so the connection to the old tradition has never been completely severed (just think about the Three Singers the Gardeners and Tyrells keep in their godswood at Highgarden).

Subsequent Alayne chapters most likely will flash out Bronze Yohn and the other Royces, but there is really no hint that they are not following the Seven. And marriages between Andals and Starks clearly isn't an issue since all the Manderly wives of the Starks would, of course, also follow the Seven.

I see more trouble with Lorra Royce not being of the North than a problem with religion. Religious wars are almost never happening in Westeros.

We don't know when exactly Donnor died.

In fact, we have to keep in mind that we still don't know when the She-Wolves story will take place. George may scrap the whole thing or write and publish 'The Village Hero' first or move it around in the time line. As of yet it is only canon that Beron fought against the Ironborn in an alliance with the Lannisters. His death isn't canon yet, and if George's changes the story/travels of Dunk & Egg they might go north much later than they originally intended to go.

In light of that it is entirely unclear when Beron is going to die. Could be 212 AC, could be a year later, or even as late as 214 or 215.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Sure you can, many, many Southern Houses pre-date the Andals (Lannisters, Hightowers etc) yet none still worship the Old Gods.

In the Vale the Old God worshipping minority became the Mountain Clans while it is more than likely that the Royces assimilated like every other Vale House.

The Riverlands was different with regular changes in dynasties and rulers. The Blackwoods have been able to maintain their religion with no real pressure to change.

A difference of opinion here definitely. I would like to see George's input on this one actually but for myself at the time being I can only envision the Royces following the Old gods. Nothing could make me think differently on this except a Canon source so I'll agree to disagree on this one folks. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the Lannisters, Hightowers, Durrandons, even the Gardeners took on the Seven to make peace with the Andals. And unlike in those other regions the Royces and their First Men allies were utterly destroyed during the Battle of the Seven Stars. Yandel tells us that it would take the Royces and the others centuries to climb back to a position of influence and prestige, very much suggesting that they all adopted the Faith of the Seven in the meantime.

As of now, the Blackwoods are the only house south of the Neck who still follows the old gods. But then, most of the ancient First Men still have godswoods with heart trees and such, so the connection to the old tradition has never been completely severed (just think about the Three Singers the Gardeners and Tyrells keep in their godswood at Highgarden).

Subsequent Alayne chapters most likely will flash out Bronze Yohn and the other Royces, but there is really no hint that they are not following the Seven. And marriages between Andals and Starks clearly isn't an issue since all the Manderly wives of the Starks would, of course, also follow the Seven.

I see more trouble with Lorra Royce not being of the North than a problem with religion. Religious wars are almost never happening in Westeros.

We don't know when exactly Donnor died.

In fact, we have to keep in mind that we still don't know when the She-Wolves story will take place. George may scrap the whole thing or write and publish 'The Village Hero' first or move it around in the time line. As of yet it is only canon that Beron fought against the Ironborn in an alliance with the Lannisters. His death isn't canon yet, and if George's changes the story/travels of Dunk & Egg they might go north much later than they originally intended to go.

In light of that it is entirely unclear when Beron is going to die. Could be 212 AC, could be a year later, or even as late as 214 or 215.

I do find this a bit interesting concerning Berons death year. I always assume Beron takes the wound in 212AC and Its seriously life threatening. He has already sent out a call for help in 211AC, that is Canon surely yes? D&E are headed North In 211AC. If Beron takes a life threatening wound and is fading fast 212AC has always seemed a safe bet for his death but your correct it is not Canon.

Lets agree to disagree on Royces and the old gods, for some strange reason nothing at all except a canon source or GRRM quote would make me think they don't follow the old gods, it's ingrained in my brain now haha. 

[Raisin' Bran]

33 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Lets agree to disagree on Royces and the old gods, for some strange reason nothing at all except a canon source or GRRM quote would make me think they don't follow the old gods, it's ingrained in my brain now haha. 

Ingrained for myself as well.

What I found interesting was that despite the Starks marrying Manderlys among other Andal-custom families, a sept was not built in Winterfell until Catelyn Tully made her way north.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Ingrained for myself as well.

What I found interesting was that despite the Starks marrying Manderlys among other Andal-custom families, a sept was not built in Winterfell until Catelyn Tully made her way north.

Yes There's something about the Royces that to me just screams Old gods.

Thats a great point about the sept Raisin'Bran. Good info. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Ingrained for myself as well.

What I found interesting was that despite the Starks marrying Manderlys among other Andal-custom families, a sept was not built in Winterfell until Catelyn Tully made her way north.

We know Ned built a small sept for Catelyn, but this doesn't mean that this was the first sept in Winterfell. They could have had multiple septs for multiple Stark wives who worshiped the Seven who fell out of use after the deaths and were subsequently used for other things.

I don't think that was the case but it is certainly a possibility. My guess is that no Lord Stark cared enough of the faith of his wife to actually built a sept for them. They could have had some private altar in their apartments or something like that.

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I do find this a bit interesting concerning Berons death year. I always assume Beron takes the wound in 212AC and Its seriously life threatening. He has already sent out a call for help in 211AC, that is Canon surely yes? D&E are headed North In 211AC. If Beron takes a life threatening wound and is fading fast 212AC has always seemed a safe bet for his death but your correct it is not Canon.

My point there is that we don't know yet how George is going to play the story. Dunk & Egg could easily get sidetracked after Whitewalls and decided to look for Pennytree (which most likely will turn out to be the village from 'The Village Hero'). Dunk wants to go there eventually, and if they meet somebody on the road or in an inn who knows where the place is and that it is relatively close by in the Riverlands, they might go there first.

Yes, it is canon that Beron Stark is recruiting men to fight off the Ironborn under Dagon Greyjoy, but we don't know how long this campaign will take. George could easily spin things so that Beron only receives his mortal at the end of a, say, two year campaign or so. But we can be reasonably sure that Dagon Greyjoy is not going to stick around until the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know Ned built a small sept for Catelyn, but this doesn't mean that this was the first sept in Winterfell. They could have had multiple septs for multiple Stark wives who worshiped the Seven who fell out of use after the deaths and were subsequently used for other things.

I don't think that was the case but it is certainly a possibility. My guess is that no Lord Stark cared enough of the faith of his wife to actually built a sept for them. They could have had some private altar in their apartments or something like that.

My point there is that we don't know yet how George is going to play the story. Dunk & Egg could easily get sidetracked after Whitewalls and decided to look for Pennytree (which most likely will turn out to be the village from 'The Village Hero'). Dunk wants to go there eventually, and if they meet somebody on the road or in an inn who knows where the place is and that it is relatively close by in the Riverlands, they might go there first.

Yes, it is canon that Beron Stark is recruiting men to fight off the Ironborn under Dagon Greyjoy, but we don't know how long this campaign will take. George could easily spin things so that Beron only receives his mortal at the end of a, say, two year campaign or so. But we can be reasonably sure that Dagon Greyjoy is not going to stick around until the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

There is nothing whatsoever in any text anywhere to hint or suggest that there have been septs in WF before Ned had one built for Catelyn. Ned was a different kind of Stark, softer perhaps, I just couldn't see older Starks entertaining that idea at all. Since Rickard the Starks became possibly to familiar with the South and its ways but that's another story. 

On D&E I think this is the same as the sept thing, you don't actually believe this at all. In 211AC D&E state plenty times their road lies north, they are set on a path  to aid WF no doubt whatsoever, the lure of Whitewalls etc. I think will be a one off 100%, unless something dreadful happens that requires their help to hold them up more but barring that then D&E are heading to WF with a late 211AC-212AC eta.

I think Dunk being Dunk will feel a strong need to help WF and get there quickly and going to Pennytree for nostalgic reasons won't help after being held up once already. He can visit there later. And will, but after WF. At least that's how I see it.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

There is nothing whatsoever in any text anywhere to hint or suggest that there have been septs in WF before Ned had one built for Catelyn. Ned was a different kind of Stark, softer perhaps, I just couldn't see older Starks entertaining that idea at all. Since Rickard the Starks became possibly to familiar with the South and its ways but that's another story. 

On D&E I think this is the same as the sept thing, you don't actually believe this at all. In 211AC D&E state plenty times their road lies north, they are set on a path  to aid WF no doubt whatsoever, the lure of Whitewalls etc. I think will be a one off 100%, unless something dreadful happens that requires their help to hold them up more but barring that then D&E are heading to WF with a late 211AC-212AC eta.

I think Dunk being Dunk will feel a strong need to help WF and get there quickly and going to Pennytree for nostalgic reasons won't help after being held up once already. He can visit there later. And will, but after WF. At least that's how I see it.

But there is nothing in the books that says that Cat's sept was the first ever erected sept at Winterfell, either. So we simply do not know. Private belief doesn't swing the truth one way or another. It is undetermined. I'm not saying there were septs in Winterfell before Cat's, but it is certainly possible.

And George has already said that the She-Wolves aren't set as the next Dunk & Egg story. 'The Village Hero' might come first, and who knows what's going to come then?

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But there is nothing in the books that says that Cat's sept was the first ever erected sept at Winterfell, either. So we simply do not know. Private belief doesn't swing the truth one way or another. It is undetermined. I'm not saying there were septs in Winterfell before Cat's, but it is certainly possible.

And George has already said that the She-Wolves aren't set as the next Dunk & Egg story. 'The Village Hero' might come first, and who knows what's going to come then?

Yep your right, it's something we may never know on the Sept issue. Unless I meet george one day and can ask him ill just think they never until it's confirmed otherwise. 

My thinking behind a 212AC death was the SSM where george says the She wolves novella is set in a 1.5year gap after Sworn sword. And since TSS and TMK are both set in 211AC then TSS must be earlier in 211AC so a 1.5 year gap could be in 212AC Yeah? 

Either way though I'm not trying to argue, of course George can throw a curveball and do TVH 1st and change things. 

Incidentally im nearly finished part 2 of my timeline pieces, the dates work out much much better and I think you and Wondering wolf will be more in favour of this one.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 3-2-2016 at 0:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

Ellard may not actually have been the Lord Stark who went to Harrenhal in 101 AC. If I remember correctly, then Ran and Linda inserted that name based on a preliminary list of all the Lords of Winterfell they also happened to have, but apparently they were wrong there. I'm arguing from memory on that one, though, and might be mistaken.

Here's the quote I think you mean:

Quote

The reference to Lord Ellard being glad to support the Watch is an error -- the name was put in before George provided a list of the ruling Starks going back to Torrhen to us and we saw what date actually worked properly, but missed changing the name. We'll change it to "the Starks were glad" and leave just which Lord Stark it was to George to decide for Fire and Blood.

 

So I suppose Ellard was the Lord of Winterfell in 101 AC, but simply not the Lord who gave land to the Watch.