U.S. Election - Because we know better than you do

[Kalbear]

Tywin, since you keep changing the goalposts perhaps you'd like to explain what makes someone super liberal - and while you're at it, perhaps you could tell me how lax gun laws and strict crime regulations fall into it.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

34 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Tywin, since you keep changing the goalposts perhaps you'd like to explain what makes someone super liberal - and while you're at it, perhaps you could tell me how lax gun laws and strict crime regulations fall into it.

Kal,

I don't believe I've moved the goal posts. I've consistently argued that Sanders, overall, is more liberal than Clinton and Obama. I've never said he is on every single issue. And I think Obama and Clinton would admit he's more liberal overall. Obama and Clinton have run away from being labeled a socialist. Sanders embraces it.

I have so far brought up healthcare, LGBT rights, reforming the criminal justice system, taxes and reigning in Wall St. as examples of why Sanders is more liberal. I've argued why Sanders' record is better on each issue. The only one you could honestly debate is criminal justice reform, and that's if you punish Sanders for his votes in 90s while not associating Hillary with Bill on those same pieces of legislation. I can't speak to Sanders votes on gun legislation, but I can concede that Hillary has a better record. But I also think Sanders votes on foreign affairs trump Clinton's hand waving about Sanders votes on loosening gun regulations.

Ultimately, I think it's best to look at the issues that were of major importance when all 3 were in office at the same time. And overall, I think Sanders has a better record than Clinton and has been consistently more liberal than Clinton and Obama.

Now ask yourself this simple question: Has Clinton pulled Sanders more to the left or has Sanders pulled Clinton more to the left during their presidential campaigns?

[Kalbear]

Here's a good way that you're moving the goalposts - I was talking about Obama in 2008.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Here's a good way that you're moving the goalposts - I was talking about Obama in 2008.

And that's why I don't like writing long posts. You ignored several points that cut apart your argument and cherry pick one thing you think you can jump on.

And even then, you're wrong. Obama 2008 was not a more liberal candidacy than Sanders 2016.

[Balefont]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Can we just call Trump Presidential Candidate Kamacho?

And start watering our crops with Gatorade because it's what plants crave? 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

And that's why I don't like writing long posts. You ignored several points that cut apart your argument and cherry pick one thing you think you can jump on.

And even then, you're wrong. Obama 2008 was not a more liberal candidacy than Sanders 2016.

I didn't say he was. I said that they were comparable. Again, goalposts moving. 

But now I'm at my desk I'll write a bit longer.

On Clinton moving Sanders more liberally: I think you're not that right. Clinton has been a proponent of more ACA for a while now - pretty much since it started. She's been a proponent of community college tuition being reduced for a while now. She's been a significant advocate of prison population reduction and criminal reform long before Sanders has been - and in this, I think she influenced Sanders, as Sanders didn't even know that Vermont shipped their prisoners out of state until Clinton brought it up as a point. On LGBT rights she was behind Sanders, that's totally true, but both have been about the same since Obama and 2012. 

But again - my original comparison that you and Ini had a problem with was talking about Obama in 2008 vs. Sanders now. Why you're bringing up Clinton at all is really odd. And on that, Obama has definitely moved Sanders towards Obama's politics. Every vote Obama had brought up that didn't have to do with guns Sanders voted for. Afghanistan, Iraq, drone attacks, ACA - Sanders was lockstep with Obama. Sanders didn't state that he supported gay marriage until after Obama came out and supported it. Sanders didn't come out about prison reform until after Obama came out about it. Sanders didn't speak to police brutality or police escalation until Obama came out against it (and point of fact Sanders has been very much pro-police in his own state, and this was a key way that he won early elections in his career). Obama has been as desirous of wall street reform as Sanders has (at least as far as we can tell, given that Obama hasn't been able to do much about it either). And Obama was the first one that wanted to fix campaign reform - that was another issue that Sanders started advocating after Obama did. 

My point continues to be that while Sanders might be more liberal on a couple issues compared to Obama in 2008, he is not so amazingly different - in style, in rhetoric, in appeal to populism, in vague notions of plans. I absolutely concede that Sanders is far more liberal when it comes to health care. On that single issue he's got it made. In most other areas he's pretty much the same, and in a few fairly key ones - criminal reform, police reform, gun laws - he's decidedly far more conservative. That's it! 

And yeah, he's also more liberal than Clinton is, but again - not insanely so much more. That's pretty much because Clinton this time is running as Obama 2.0, so it stands to reason that they'd be pretty close. 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Balefont said:

And start watering our crops with Gatorade because it's what plants crave? 

It has electrolytes. 

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

She's been a significant advocate of prison population reduction and criminal reform long before Sanders has been - and in this, I think she influenced Sanders, as Sanders didn't even know that Vermont shipped their prisoners out of state until Clinton brought it up as a point.

What, specifically, is the factual basis of your claim that Clinton has been an advocate of criminal justice reform long before Sanders? 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

49 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It has electrolytes. 

Have you ever seen a plant growing out of a toilet?

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, NestorMakhnosLovechild said:

What, specifically, is the factual basis of your claim that Clinton has been an advocate of criminal justice reform long before Sanders? 

Here's an example. This was done in October 2015; Sanders has yet to discuss what he's going to do at all on the campaign.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Have you ever seen a plant growing out of a toliet?

I have, but to be fair we were between housecleaning services at the time

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I have, but to be fair we were between housecleaning services at the time

Dammit. Now I want an EXTRA BIG ASS TACO. It has more molecules now, ya know.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I didn't say he was. I said that they were comparable. Again, goalposts moving.

But now I'm at my desk I'll write a bit longer.

On Clinton moving Sanders more liberally: I think you're not that right. Clinton has been a proponent of more ACA for a while now - pretty much since it started.(1) She's been a proponent of community college tuition being reduced for a while now. (2.) She's been a significant advocate of prison population reduction and criminal reform long before Sanders has been - and in this, I think she influenced Sanders, as Sanders didn't even know that Vermont shipped their prisoners out of state until Clinton brought it up as a point. (3) On LGBT rights she was behind Sanders, that's totally true, but both have been about the same since Obama and 2012.(4)

But again - my original comparison that you and Ini had a problem with was talking about Obama in 2008 vs. Sanders now. Why you're bringing up Clinton at all is really odd.(5) And on that, Obama has definitely moved Sanders towards Obama's politics. Every vote Obama had brought up that didn't have to do with guns Sanders voted for. Afghanistan, Iraq, drone attacks, ACA - Sanders was lockstep with Obama.(6) Sanders didn't state that he supported gay marriage until after Obama came out and supported it.(7) Sanders didn't come out about prison reform until after Obama came out about it. Sanders didn't speak to police brutality or police escalation until Obama came out against it (and point of fact Sanders has been very much pro-police in his own state, and this was a key way that he won early elections in his career).(8) Obama has been as desirous of wall street reform as Sanders has (at least as far as we can tell, given that Obama hasn't been able to do much about it either).(9) And Obama was the first one that wanted to fix campaign reform - that was another issue that Sanders started advocating after Obama did.(10)

My point continues to be that while Sanders might be more liberal on a couple issues compared to Obama in 2008, he is not so amazingly different - in style, in rhetoric, in appeal to populism, in vague notions of plans.(11) I absolutely concede that Sanders is far more liberal when it comes to health care. On that single issue he's got it made. In most other areas he's pretty much the same, and in a few fairly key ones - criminal reform, police reform, gun laws - he's decidedly far more conservative. That's it! (12)

And yeah, he's also more liberal than Clinton is, but again - not insanely so much more. That's pretty much because Clinton this time is running as Obama 2.0, so it stands to reason that they'd be pretty close. (13)

First things first. I think you're confllating when you heard the politician supported an issue and when they actually started supporting an issue. That said:

1. Clinton and Sanders have both been long time supporters of health care reform, but using the ACA as an example is terrible. During this campaign, Sanders started with advocating for universal single payer. Clinton wasn't even fully embracing the ACA at the start, and now has moved to ACA + improvements.

2. And Sanders is far to her left. It's hard to argue his policy proposals haven't moved hers, and forced her to be more vocal about them. Now don't get me wrong, I like Clinton's approach better, but Sanders has clearly had more influence on her than the other way around.

3. You could be right on this, I don't know enough on the specifics to offer anything useful.

4. That's just flat out wrong, but it's fair to say it's also nitpicking.

5. I brought up Clinton because you kept saying how similar Sanders is to Clinton and Obama, and I don't believe that to be true.

6. The fact that Sanders voted in favor of things Obama wanted does not mean Obama moved Sanders closer to him. In fact, Sanders is usually the guy saying "I want more!"

7. Flat out wrong. There is a video of Sanders thanking the president for moving to his side of this issue.

8. You don't seem to know Sanders record very well. Sanders was deriding police brutality when Obama was still a child. Again, hearing Obama say something and then hearing Sanders say I agree does not mean Obama supported it first.

9. They both want to reform Wall St. But their vision of reform is massively different. That's the thing you keep missing.

10. What the hell are you talking about?!?!? Sanders wanted campaign finance reform before Obama ever held public office. And one thing people seem to always forget is that it was Obama's 08 camapign that caused campaigns to be awash with cash.

11. Why does everything with you have to be "basically the same" or "amazingly different?" They have similar views on most issues, but Sanders typically wants to push furthur to the left than Obama. Not always, but more often than not.

12. I really don't think you know very much about Bernie Sanders.

13. That assumes Clinton means what she says. I'm of the opion that if over the last 10 years the country moved more to the right than the left, Clinton would have found a way to reembrace her Goldwater Girl days. (and I get that isn't totally fair, but I neither like nor trust HRC, so I'm prone to assume the worst)

And not specific to any one thing you said, but you seem to be punishing Sanders for votes he took in the 90s that the Clintons supported but don't have a voting record you can point to.

 

[Kalbear]

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2. And Sanders is far to her left. It's hard to argue his policy proposals haven't moved hers, and forced her to be more vocal about them. Now don't get me wrong, I like Clinton's approach better, but Sanders has clearly had more influence on her than the other way around.

Again, you keep saying this, and you keep not having any examples other than healthcare. And when I bring up ways in which he isn't you simply ignore them. Should I do the same? 

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8. You don't seem to know Sanders record very well. Sanders was deriding police brutality when Obama was still a child. Again, hearing Obama say something and then hearing Sanders say I agree does not mean Obama supported it first.

He also voted against demilitarization of the police, for tougher crime sentencing and has repeatedly supported the police unions in his state and in congress. You don't appear to know much about his record either. And he voted against the Brady bill 5 times. And he didn't even know that their were private prisons for Vermont prisoners to go to outside his state until it was brought up by Clinton. Etc. 

My personal view is that Sanders simply hasn't given much thought to anything other than economic inequality. And that's totally fine. On that, he's an absolute juggernaut. On many other issues he is at best towing the party line. Gay marriage is a really good example: this article gives a nice timeline of what Sanders supported and when. Essentially his view was that it was not legal per se but could be made legal via constitutional amendment at the state or federal level. And while he voiced support for it at the state level in 2009, he didn't say it was a universal right until 2015.  

[Kalbear]

And finally:

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11. Why does everything with you have to be "basically the same" or "amazingly different?" They have similar views on most issues, but Sanders typically wants to push furthur to the left than Obama. Not always, but more often than not.

Because that was what I was responding to. That's all my original point was - that Sanders is not far more liberal than Clinton, and that his campaign and campaign promises are very similar to what Obama ran on in 2008. Not in all ways, but in most. That's all! 

They differ extensively on healthcare reform, and potentially on foreign policy. As you say, it's hard to pin what Clinton would or would not support on their choice of use of arms or negotiation, but it's also pretty hard to pin Sanders down on that too by the same token, and he hasn't exactly been consistent from year to year in wanting to use arms or not. The famous part where his own aides resigned after he voted for bombing Kosovo and his nickname was "Bernie the Bomber" come to mind here. But the notion that Sanders is some special snowflake compared to the rest of the democratic party seems wrong to me. He absolutely is more liberal than Clinton and more than what Obama has done in office. Is it that much? Not really. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, you keep saying this, and you keep not having any examples other than healthcare. And when I bring up ways in which he isn't you simply ignore them. Should I do the same?

He also voted against demilitarization of the police, for tougher crime sentencing and has repeatedly supported the police unions in his state and in congress. You don't appear to know much about his record either. And he voted against the Brady bill 5 times. And he didn't even know that their were private prisons for Vermont prisoners to go to outside his state until it was brought up by Clinton. Etc.

My personal view is that Sanders simply hasn't given much thought to anything other than economic inequality. And that's totally fine. On that, he's an absolute juggernaut. On many other issues he is at best towing the party line. Gay marriage is a really good example: this article gives a nice timeline of what Sanders supported and when. Essentially his view was that it was not legal per se but could be made legal via constitutional amendment at the state or federal level. And while he voiced support for it at the state level in 2009, he didn't say it was a universal right until 2015. 

Sanders wants a free state college system. That is massively different from the changes Clinton wants. And let me reiterate, I prefer Clinton's plan. And I'm not ignoring them. I just said you could be right, I have to do more research.

I am unfamiliar with every detail of Sanders' record on police issues. I was speaking to the broader issue, not every legislative vote. And I'd be willing to bet Clinton would have voted relatively the same way if she were in office. She doesn't strike me as a soft on crime type. And there is no defending Sanders' votes on the Brady Bill.

I think your personal view is generally correct. I don't think it's fair to dismiss him on other issues though, it's just that he hasn't been as vocal about them, but that's not to say he didn't have a strong stance on them. And on most issues he was ahead of the Democratic Party.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Media reporting today that Clintons Nevada lead over Sanders has EVAPORATED like a Mohave Desert water puddle. 

 

[Kalbear]

Great. Don't deny any of those.

Where does voting to bomb Kosovo fall into this? Or voting against the Brady bill 5 times fall into this? Or voting against demilitarization of the police? Where does voting for Afghanistan, the funding and refunding of Iraq, or his support of police unions come into this? 

I absolutely agree that his positions on healthcare and college education are to the left of Obama in 2008. His positions on gun laws, K12 education, prison population reform are not, however, and are actually to the right. While he might have spoken about the demographics of jail time his record has not supported any reform whatsoever, and he didn't start even talking about it until after the BLM hammered him on it. 

Also note that his campaign reform kind of went sideways when he stopped being able to claim that he didn't take money from the Democratic party in the 90s. The quote about how he was the only independent stopped being true in what, 1998? There's a reason that there's a huge gap in his quotes between 1997 and 2012 on that page, and that's because he went with the dems at that point - and at that point he was taking the same money from big donors to the dem party as everyone else. He started talking about it again in 2012, mind you, with the rise of the SuperPACs. Interesting, that. And even in 1997 he was fine with PACs, just not big donors. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

47 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

 

In the meantime, Sanders is proposing to raise taxes across the board to finance a single payer healthcare system, proposes expanding Social Security by removing the income cap, and proposes free public college educations based on a financial speculation tax, all 3 proposals which are significantly to the left of Obama's platform in 2008.

You also forgot the vastly different approach to reforming Wall St.

37 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Where does voting to bomb Kosovo fall into this?

Is this really a worthwile talking point? There was a Clinton in the WH after all.

[Kalbear]

Kosovo is kind of a worthwhile talking point (especially comparing him to Obama) because Sanders' own aides resigned over it, marking it as a significant departure from the kind of person that they thought they were supporting. There's also a lot of evidence that Clinton did this essentially as a way to give the neocons some support in exchange for the Lewinski scandal; it's not clear that Hillary Clinton would support it today, in any case. (though I think she would). Regardless, it's certainly a talking point given the hammer that Sanders supporters use when talking about his foreign policy being non-interventionist. 

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You also forgot the vastly different approach to reforming Wall St.

Until he actually comes up with something beyond Glass-Steagall that has some substance to it there's not a vast difference here.