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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

I'm not sure I can bring the two together meaningfully but perhaps there are a few interesting things about lemons, melons and weapons that I can share:

...

GREAT insights! The lemon pie references had flown right past me. I think Doran Martell's swollen joints are also compared to overripe fruits. If the bursting melons tend to appear before Joffrey, and we know the wildfire grenades were produced for Aerys, maybe there is a mad king association with overripe fruit? I love Prince Doran and hate to think that he might be crazed, but he is definitely obsessed with revenge.

The only fruit at Winterfell is either imported or grown in the glass house - no fruit is native to the landscape, if I recall correctly; certainly lemons are imported. Maybe that's a way of showing that Winterfell mostly steered clear of the southron "food fights" and fruit weapons.

Great point about Ser Dontos and teeth, too. Lots to ponder in your post. Thanks!

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14 minutes ago, Seams said:

GREAT insights! The lemon pie references had flown right past me. I think Doran Martell's swollen joints are also compared to overripe fruits. If the bursting melons tend to appear before Joffrey, and we know the wildfire grenades were produced for Aerys, maybe there is a mad king association with overripe fruit? I love Prince Doran and hate to think that he might be crazed, but he is definitely obsessed with revenge.

The only fruit at Winterfell is either imported or grown in the glass house - no fruit is native to the landscape, if I recall correctly; certainly lemons are imported. Maybe that's a way of showing that Winterfell mostly steered clear of the southron "food fights" and fruit weapons.

Great point about Ser Dontos and teeth, too. Lots to ponder in your post. Thanks!

Need to go to bed so just a quick one: The defense angle suits Doran quite well. In contrast to Oberyn, he's defensive, lies low (the grass that hides the snake) and bides his time. His overripe melon joint is at bursting point, which may coincide with his latest plan re Arianne and Aegon. 

With Sansa and Dontos it's interesting that she suggests having his 'teeth pulled' which matches with her love for lemon-cakes that ruin the teeth. 

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flowers / flour

ravenous reader just described a good pun in the thread discussing Clues about Jon's resurrection:

Reinforcing the point, the following childhood memory of the Starks playing in the crypts also prefigures Jon's return from the dead:

A Game of Thrones -- Arya IV

Fear cuts deeper than swords, the quiet voice inside her whispered. Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She'd been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who'd been no bigger than Rickon was now. They'd only had one candle between them, and Bran's eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. "There are worse things than spiders and rats," he whispered. "This is where the dead walk." That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya's hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb's leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. "You stupid," she told him, "you scared the baby," but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

The description of Jon as one of the 'walking dead' or a 'spirit' (a synonym for 'ghost' which evokes his direwolf) emerging from the open tomb echoes the previous quote.  Jon is covered in 'flour,' which not only resembles a dusting of his eponymous 'snow,' but perhaps if one is sufficiently imaginative also evokes the old English folksong 'John Barleycorn,' considering that both 'flour' and 'spirits' (punning with the alcoholic beverage) are two products thereof (see below). 

If one is into puns, the other possibility is that Jon is covered in 'flower/s' connecting him to the only other person in the crypts adorned with flowers:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

All the same elements are here:  flowers, pallor, blood.

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On 5/3/2016 at 10:42 AM, Seams said:

The death and rebirth motif is used in so many different ways throughout the books. I'm not sure the Butterbumps egg-hatching scene necessarily connects to dragons, although I do see ice dragon potential in Sansa's future. The bird motif is so strong with Sansa and the Butterbumps scene also gives us insights about the Queen of Thorns and Margaery, who is described as having a group of hens. So there could be a dragon hint, but it seems likely that there is also a continuation of the bird imagery. Who knows, though. Maybe they're all part of the same big motif.

I do think the bird and bat imagery is connected, but I feel that the imagery concerning bird and bat is evolving to the latter.  The Hound often calls Sansa Little Bird, but is missing in ASoS.  There's the connection to birds during the meal with the Queen of Thorns, as you've pointed out.  This scene occurs in ASoS, Sansa I.  Sansa begins to have imagery of a bat associated with her in ASoS, Sansa IV, mean her stomach first flutters like a bat.  Later in the book, Arya hears the tale of Sansa flying out of KL, transforming her herself into a wolf with bat wings. 

Perhaps the Butterbump egg hatching scene can also be interpreted as a depiction not as hatching of dragons, but "hatching" of bats?

On 5/3/2016 at 10:42 AM, Seams said:

I like this! I think there is a lot we haven't discovered yet about name combinations. I am also very interested in finding out more about the legacy of the "Big Four" magic legends: Lann the Clever, Bran the Builder, Durran Godsgrief and Garth Greenhands. Durran is the biggest mystery to me, and I am wondering whether his legacy is somehow hidden in the story so far. Supposedly House Durrandon's blood line lives on only through intermarriage with the Baratheon line. I have a hunch that Sansa and Gendry might end up together (or will have a significant interaction). So maybe this is a hint in that direction.

I disagree.  I don't think the Storm's End connection is literal.  Durran is to Storm's End as LF is to Harrenhal.

 

On 5/3/2016 at 10:42 AM, Seams said:

The topic of Sansa's ability to warg a dragon or her association with bat imagery may be ripe for a thread of its own - it seems to have outgrown the puns and wordplay focus. I will say, though, that I was an avid follower of Lost Melnibonean's egg thread, and he looked only at examples involving hard-boiled eggs and ended up concluding that the hard-boiled eggs probably to do not correlate with potential dragon riders after all, because he found hard boiled egg scenes involving Arya and the Kindly Man and Cersei eating breakfast alone on the morning of Tommen and Margaery's wedding.

The "bat" discussion is rather off topic.  I have my own thread (Bat and Wolf in my signature) if you'd like to read through it. 

I think LM's thread still has a valid point.  Scene's with eggs consumed are relevant to people who will try or will get the opportunity to bond with a dragon.  (Although Cersei's half-formed chick in her egg might mean that one of her children dies by one.)  I posted these thoughts on LM's thread towards the end, I think on the last page, after LM's Arya find.

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On February 13, 2016 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

As I was re-reading some early Bran POVs, I started to wonder about Little Walder and Big Walder, so frequently referred to as Catelyn's wards. Suddenly the similarity between "wards" and "swords" struck me. Ned's sword, Ice, is reformed into a big sword (Oathkeeper) and a little sword (Widow's Wail). Similarly Catelyn "has" two wards: a Big Walder and a Little Walder. There is informed speculation in this forum that Big Walder killed Little Walder, blaming the death on the mysterious serial killer on the loose in Ramsay Bolton's Winterfell. If it is correct to conclude that one ambitious Walder is trying to kill Freys in order to clear a path to become the Lord of the Crossing (children's games are never just games in ASOIAF), one might draw a parallel between the wards and swords: Catelyn would like to wipe out as many Freys as possible, and it appears that this ward/sword is an automated weapon that may help to achieve her goal.

Help me to make a list and analyze some of GRRM's other plays on words and/or rhymes.

Bear / bare - I think the intertwined Mormont and Stark stories may play on the idea that a person who is stark naked might also be described as bare naked.

stark / House Stark - There are several references to stark, treeless mountaintops and stark stones after Winterfell burns.

Tywin / twin - The Lannister patriarch invests a lot of his hopes for the glory of his house in his messed-up twins.

Hart / heart - The hart trees seem to be a network with sap that looks like blood.

stew / steward - We see sister stew and singer stew and later get a complex lesson about the varied translations of the Selaesori Qhoran, including stinky steward and/or Hand of the King. How are stews and stewards linked, if at all?

Bowl / bole - In the thread about Jojen Paste, there is speculation that the juxtaposition of Jojen with a bole (tree trunk or stump) strengthens the theory that Jojen eventually will end up in a bowl.

Corn / Acorn - Bran feeds corn to the crows; Tyrion feeds acorns to Pretty Pig.

And then there are the many names of characters that allude to wordplay - rain / House Reyne, for instance, winking at the death by drowning inflicted on the upstart house. I've always thought that the sword Needle alludes to Ned + Lyanna. Aegon and his nickname egg would be an obvious reference to a dragon egg.

I'll add others as they come to me.

In my last podcast I noticed that Gregor of the grey armor becomes covered in gore from head to heel during his fight with Oberyn. Grey-gore? Seems so. 

Also, I'm glad someone else noticed the "Jojen in a wooden bole" thing. I wrote about that on Reddit a few months ago and it was like *crickets.*. I thought it was clear foreshadowing - "look, Jojen is in a wooden bole!" but no one was impressed. 

George makes double entendres with "others" all the time, unless I'm going mad.

There's a ton of punnery in general with all the mythical astronomy, but a lot of them would not make sense to those who haven't listened to my podcast so I won't list them here. Moon blood is a big one, for example. But yeah... Martin loves his wordplay. 

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37 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I do think the bird and bat imagery is connected, but I feel that the imagery concerning bird and bat is evolving to the latter.  The Hound often calls Sansa Little Bird, but is missing in ASoS.  There's the connection to birds during the meal with the Queen of Thorns, as you've pointed out.  This scene occurs in ASoS, Sansa I.  Sansa begins to have imagery of a bat associated with her in ASoS, Sansa IV, mean her stomach first flutters like a bat.  Later in the book, Arya hears the tale of Sansa flying out of KL, transforming her herself into a wolf with bat wings. 

Perhaps the Butterbump egg hatching scene can also be interpreted as a depiction not as hatching of dragons, but "hatching" of bats?

I disagree.  I don't think the Storm's End connection is literal.  Durran is to Storm's End as LF is to Harrenhal.

 

The "bat" discussion is rather off topic.  I have my own thread (Bat and Wolf in my signature) if you'd like to read through it. 

I think LM's thread still has a valid point.  Scene's with eggs consumed are relevant to people who will try or will get the opportunity to bond with a dragon.  (Although Cersei's half-formed chick in her egg might mean that one of her children dies by one.)  I posted these thoughts on LM's thread towards the end, I think on the last page, after LM's Arya find.

Sansa is a moon maiden in the Nissa Nissa tradition and therefore has many scenes replaying the birth of dragons from the lunar egg. I've discussed this at length in my podcasts, particularly in the one titled "Waves of Night and Moon Blood." The bleeding her moon blood and then burning it while AZor Ahai look-a-like Stannis Baratheon fills the air with smoke that blots out the sky, her turning into a "bat wolf," and most of all her medusa-like black amethyst hairnet, symbolized as a head full of purple snakes. Those are the moon dragons. The Butterbumps scene is absolutely about dragons hatching. The symbolism reversed a bit - the sun lays the egg (notice BBumps is round and yellow) and the moon hatches it - but it's the same story. When BBumps spits seeds everywhere, those are the dragonseeds - the meteors - spewing forth from the sun. So yes, bats and dragons are somewhat equivalent in many cases. Also, the night messenger / blood sucker aspects of bats fits the nature of the black moon meteors perfectly. Remember that Lightbringer drank Nissa Nissa's blood - that's part of the deal. 

As for food symbolism, you guys are right to link eggs with the moon. That's exactly the idea. Fried and boiled eggs refers to the moon cracking from the sun's heat, and to the landing of a dragon meteor in the ocean (the sea dragon). In the moon blood scene with Sansa, Sansa herself is the moon egg. She burns her moon blood and soaks herself in scalding water. Then she eats fried and boiled eggs, after frying and boiling herself or her moon blood. Same story told two different ways in the same scene. 

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Dany's first chapter:
Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the bannersof their lords. The Dothraki called that land Rhaesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. "Our land," he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. "Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers." 
And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not.
Then in Dany's 9th chapter:
"… wake the dragon …"
The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. 
"… the dragon …"
Home, Westeros...
smell home=flowered fields
green hills/fields
stone buildings,
And wait for it...
Banners of their lords = Arms
The Dragon Remembers, but It's wolves who have a pack to stay warm...
"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."
Perhaps the "arms to keep her warm" is a new banner?
Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:16 PM, Evolett said:

In fact, the pie from which the doves fly is a cold pie. I examined the 'Sing a Song of Sixpence' song in connection with these scenes a while ago and searched until I found the actual recipe of such a pie. It is a cold pie, baked in advance of including the birds, because obviously, live birds cannot be baked into a 'Hot Pie'. The birds do not sing but their flying is accompanied by music. I'm still ruminating on what this means but it serves as a distinction to the hot spiced pigeon pie served to the guests, of which Tyrion receives a piece.

I like your choice of the word 'ruminating'...Very apropos to the topic of pies with all its ramifications, 'ruminating' means thinking and chewing/digesting alike!

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 The hot pigeon pie stands in contrast to the cold dove pie. Arya's companion Hot Pie is a cook, specifically a baker who produces hot pies. Included in the 'hot pie' category is the pie that Tyrion eats as well as the Rat Cook's and Frey pies. These pies contain a jumble of ingredients - hot and spicy and are more a match for the dragon metaphor, even though there is no visible sign of dragons being present (or I have not noticed any). Let us not forget that pigeons were famous for their function in transporting messages - work that is carried out by ravens in the books. And though the ravens are alive, they are inhabited by the souls of dead 'singers'. So we could extrapolate that the 'hot pies' nevertheless contain entities that are able to 'sing', ie to impart knowledge or to send messages, i.e. the breaking of the taboo of cannibalism that took place on account of the Rat Cook's actions led to the ability to impart knowledge in this manner (dreaming, prophecy?) and all these are related to fire - the fire of the sun. I hope you can follow my train of thought :). While we are on the subject of singers, Tyrion has a singer killed and this man is turned into 'singer stew' and eaten by unsuspecting persons who may then acquire said ability for prophecy etc.?

'Hot pies' conveys both the sense of something desirable, e.g. in the popular idiom 'selling like hot cakes,' as well as something dangerous, e.g. 'hot merchandise' may be stolen or illegal (after all, only a hot pie can result in potentially burning ones fingers or tongue!)  This latter sense is also contained in the 'Sing a song of sixpence' rhyme, where sometimes the 'black birds' are replaced by the expression 'naughty boys baked in a pie.' 

In the trope of human cannibalism, GRRM combines both these connotations of danger and desirability.  For example, when Bran and Dany consume their respective bowls/boles (quotes to follow), initially the taste is repellant, but then becomes irresistible the longer one partakes.

Cannibalism conferring knowledge and power is definitely one of GRRM's major and yet most uncomfortable themes, with which we've been wrestling over on the Bran's Growing Powers thread, where for all our hopes to the contrary the signs of 'Jojen paste' and that the 'singers' are up to something nefarious are too insistent to ignore. 

It's interesting that the pie -- both the one that kills and the one that doesn't -- is cut open at a wedding, hinting that cannibalism, communion, consummation, and consumption may all be related. 

All this talk of 'hot' and 'cold' got me to thinking of 'drink from the cup of ice...drink from the cup of fire...'  Thus far, we've seen a number of 'cups' which could qualify, all associated with an uneasy suggestion of cannibalism conveying 'sight.'

Here, eating the 'weirwood paste' -- perhaps a cup of 'ice'? although it's red and spicy simultaneously, so a cup of fiery ice! -- is described as a marriage.  Being initiated into the mysteries, Bran is essentially being wed to the weirwood tree:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"A paste of weirwood seeds."

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. "Will this make me a greenseer?"

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

 

Blood -- his own and that of others sacrificed for him -- makes Bran a greenseer.

Quote

 

He ate.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tastedbetter. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?"

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them.

Compare to Dany's shade of the evening -- perhaps a cup of fire, but it's also blue, a color usually associated more with ice, so a cup of icy fire.  Again, this is also a kind of marriage: the taste is described as 'mother's milk' (the bond between mother and child) and 'Drogo's seed' (the marriage consummation).  The 'caul before your eyes' evokes the veil worn by a woman on her wedding day as well as biological membranes such as the hymen and amniotic membrane, both of which have symbolic value in terms of marriage and (re)birth; enlightenment and loss of innocence:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"When you come to the chamber of the Undying, be patient. Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them. Listen well, and write each word upon your heart."

When they reached the door—a tall oval mouth, set in a wall fashioned in the likeness of a human face—the smallest dwarf Dany had ever seen was waiting on the threshold. He stood no higher than her knee, his faced pinched and pointed, snoutish, but he was dressed in delicate livery of purple and blue, and his tiny pink hands held a silver tray. Upon it rested a slender crystal glass filled with a thick blue liquid: shade of the evening, the wine of warlocks. "Take and drink," urged Pyat Pree.

"Will it turn my lips blue?"

"One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you."

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

Then, there's Arya's cup of fire which restores her sight:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

I saw you. "I gave you three. I don't need to give you four." Maybe on the morrow she would tell him about the cat that had followed her home last night from Pynto's, the cat that was hiding in the rafters, looking down on them. Or maybe not. If he could have secrets, so could she.

That evening Umma served salt-crusted crabs for supper. When her cup was presented to her, the blind girl wrinkled her nose and drank it down in three long gulps. Then she gasped and dropped the cup. Her tongue was on fire, and when she gulped a cup of wine the flames spread down her throat and up her nose.

"Wine will not help, and water will just fan the flames," the waif told her. "Eat this." A heel of bread was pressed into her hand. The girl stuffed it in her mouth, chewed, swallowed. It helped. A second chunk helped more.

And come the morning, when the night wolf left her and she opened her eyes, she saw a tallow candle burning where no candle had been the night before, its uncertain flame swaying back and forth like a whore at the Happy Port. She had never seen anything so beautiful.

@Wizz-The-Smith has remarked on the undertones of the Roman Catholic Holy Communion ritual (drinking from the cup and eating the bread representing the transcendence in partaking in the blood and body of Christ).

4 hours ago, LmL said:

Sansa is a moon maiden in the Nissa Nissa tradition and therefore has many scenes replaying the birth of dragons from the lunar egg.

Reinforcing this idea, @Isobel Harperhas mentioned that Sansa's maternal grandmother was Minisa (i.e. 'my nissa') Whent, which also echoes the bat symbolism.

Quote

I've discussed this at length in my podcasts, particularly in the one titled "Waves of Night and Moon Blood." The bleeding her moon blood and then burning it while AZor Ahai look-a-like Stannis Baratheon fills the air with smoke that blots out the sky, her turning into a "bat wolf," and most of all her medusa-like black amethyst hairnet, symbolized as a head full of purple snakes. Those are the moon dragons.

Love this -- so imaginative!  Elsewhere, impressed by the serpentine imagery surrounding Bloodraven, I noted that a dragon is literally a winged serpent, which ties in nicely with the idea of your eponymous avatar that 'Lucifer means lightbringer.'  What is the symbolism of the color purple, do you think?

Quote

The Butterbumps scene is absolutely about dragons hatching. The symbolism reversed a bit - the sun lays the egg (notice BBumps is round and yellow) and the moon hatches it - but it's the same story. When BBumps spits seeds everywhere, those are the dragonseeds - the meteors - spewing forth from the sun. So yes, bats and dragons are somewhat equivalent in many cases. Also, the night messenger / blood sucker aspects of bats fits the nature of the black moon meteors perfectly. Remember that Lightbringer drank Nissa Nissa's blood - that's part of the deal. 

Nice!  Although, there is a difference between bats and dragons in that bats are winged mammals, unlike dragons which are winged reptiles.  Therefore, bats are more like 'winged wolves' with which all the Starks have been associated, more or less.  Bloodsucker bats also mirror the werewolf mythos, from which presumably GRRM's idea of 'warging' is derived.  I like your conception of the 'night messenger' which evokes the raven's 'dark wings dark words.'  Bats also literally have a kind of 'night sight' which is a dark power!

Definitely, there are echoes of the 'bittersweet' cannibalism as communion theme we've touched on in this post and elsewhere. 

Quote

As for food symbolism, you guys are right to link eggs with the moon. That's exactly the idea. Fried and boiled eggs refers to the moon cracking from the sun's heat, and to the landing of a dragon meteor in the ocean (the sea dragon). In the moon blood scene with Sansa, Sansa herself is the moon egg. She burns her moon blood and soaks herself in scalding water. Then she eats fried and boiled eggs, after frying and boiling herself or her moon blood. Same story told two different ways in the same scene. 

Soaks herself in scalding water is reminiscent of Dany.  So if Dany and Sansa are so similar, basically recapitulations of each other, what should we conclude are their different roles in the story?

Edited by ravenous reader

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bear / bore / boar

I feel as if I must be the last person in the forum to have noticed this:

“Please, Robert, For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please.”

This was Ned, asking Robert to spare Sansa's wolf from the death penalty demanded by Cersei.

The bear / bore pun isn't the only thing that intrigues me, it's the juxtaposition of the two pun words with the emotion of love. Of course, Robert walks away from this plea and from Ned's further request that Robert, as the man who passed the sentence, also be the one to behead the wolf.

And the sentence becomes most meaningful because it foreshadows Robert's death when the "hunter becomes the hunted" and he is attacked by a wild boar. Is GRRM implying that love relationships are like the relationship between prey and hunter? Are we supposed to see bears and boars (wild animals? sigils?) as equivalent or mirror images?

I actually turned up that bear / bore quote when I was looking for a different passage for a different post last night. From Jeor Mormont to Jon Snow after Jon was caught trying to desert the Night's Watch in AGoT:

Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother’s host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men’s mail. Maege is a hoary old snark, stubborn, short-tempered, and willful. Truth be told, I can hardly stand to be around the wretched woman, but that does not mean my love for her is any less than the love you bear your half sisters. . . . Or perhaps it does. Be that as it may, I’d still grieve if she were slain, yet you don’t see me running off. . . .

I think GRRM is asking us to compare brotherly and sisterly love with romantic love, using the bear metaphor. The comment for which I sought the Mormont quote was a response to a post about the potential love relationship between Jon Snow and Arya Stark. If that romance does develop, somehow, this quote would take on new meaning: Jeor's love for Maege is not like the love Jon would have for Arya.

There is one other use of the word "bear" that struck me as just awkward enough to be important. Tywin tells Tyrion:

"With this fool's jabber of Stannis and his magic sword, it seemed to me that we had best give Joffrey something extraordinary as well. A king should bear a kingly weapon."

At the time Tywin says this, he seems to be thinking of Joffrey as an important heir of House Lannister and that he should have a Valyrian steel sword with red on its blade and rubies on its sheath. In my opinion, Tywin soon changes his mind and decides that Joffrey must be killed because he is disobedient and unpredictable.

I realize there are only three examples here, but it seems as if these "bear" quotes are about bearing love like some kind of weapon. In the first and third cases, both the bearer and the recipient of the love end up dead: Ned, Robert and Lyanna are referenced in the first quote (the direwolf, Lady, also dies); Joffrey and Tywin both die at or soon after the presentation of the sword at the wedding feast.

What does that imply about Jon's love for his half sisters? His love for Sansa is not the same as his love for Arya. Will there be a tragic outcome for one or more of the sisters? For Jon? What kind of foreshadowing might be represented by the bear / bore pun?

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On 5/3/2016 at 10:42 AM, Seams said:

I like this! I think there is a lot we haven't discovered yet about name combinations. I am also very interested in finding out more about the legacy of the "Big Four" magic legends: Lann the Clever, Bran the Builder, Durran Godsgrief and Garth Greenhands. Durran is the biggest mystery to me, and I am wondering whether his legacy is somehow hidden in the story so far. Supposedly House Durrandon's blood line lives on only through intermarriage with the Baratheon line. I have a hunch that Sansa and Gendry might end up together (or will have a significant interaction). So maybe this is a hint in that direction.

I didn't have a chance to elaborate much on this earlier, as I was literally about to go to work.  Note how Durrandon's line continued, through the female line and under a different name, but still their in blood.  This is what has happened to House Lothston and House Whent; Lothston's line was continued through House Whent, the latter which continues through House Stark.  House Qoherys might have continued through all of these houses.  Again, sorry for going off topic.  I elaborated more on this subject here:

 

On 5/3/2016 at 6:41 PM, Evolett said:

<snip>

Another Lemon/Melon connection:  Richard Lonmouth.  Many have concluded that Lem Lemoncloak is really Richard Lonmouth.  Consider the L-O-N of Lonmouth.  It's a "mush" of lemon; it's also the ending of melon:  lemon, melon.  Lem Lemoncloak is noted for having yellow teeth.  Being truly Lonmouth, he is "lemon mouth."

As for the lemon/teeth connection...  In real life, acidic fruits wear away at the enamel of our teeth.  (A friend of mine, who has lupus, swears that drinking lemon water keeps her healthy and prevents flare ups.  Perhaps lemons can improve physical heath; they certainly do contain a lot of folic acid and vitamin C.)  Perhaps the author is ignoring that fact?

Fruits as a whole can symbolize something perhaps, but so do individual fruits.  I believe lemons symbolize truth in some way.  As mentioned before, "Lonmouth" is a hint to the truth of who Lem with the yellow teeth is.  Sansa tends to "sugar" the truth; lemoncakes are sweetened lemons.  (When life gives you lemons, make lemonade lemoncakes.)  Jeor Mormont drinks lemon in his water every morning.  There's a saying (though it involves eating not drinking): [A person] eats X for breakfast.  Whatever term X is makes the subject of the sentence seem like a bad-ass.  "He eats rusty nails for breakfast," or as immortalized in Happy Gilmore, "I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast."  Jeor Mormont eats, or rather drinks, bitter truths for breakfast. 

@Seams

RE: Hair/heir There's also Harry the Heir!  (Sorry if you mentioned this previously; I don't recall.)  Harry's hair (he is said to have Jon Arryn's look) might lead people to doubt Sweetrobin's paternity. 

There's an interesting "almost alliteration" with Harry the Heir, and I wonder if that's intentional.  And if so, for what reason?  To look silly?  I recently began reading The Sworn Sword again, and it's occurred to me that the title too has an "almost alliteration."  Both Harry the Heir and the Sworn Sword would be alliteration if not for a silent letter in both of them.

Dam/Damn  

There's a drought occurring in Westeros during the Sworn Sword.  Many characters say that it is a curse put on the land by the gods due to BR's acts of kinslaying.  They're damned by the gods.  Due to the drought, the rivers are all running low.  Lady Webber dams up her stream so to feed her own crops, but the dam cuts off the water supply to areas below it, i.e. where Dunk serves.  Eventually, Trial by Combat ensues.  Lucas Longinch dies, bleeding into the river, serving as a blood sacrifice.  Dunk sees long white fish, probably the same type of fish Bran sees in BR's cave.  In short, by Dunk slaying Lucas Longinch, he's "undam(n)ed" others.

Other misc "name jumbles":

Septa Lemore/Septa Mordane.  This involves some speculation on my part.  I think Lemore is Lemore Dayne, a lady of House Dayne that we haven't formally been introduced to yet.  Lemore Dayne/Mordane.

Ny Sar.  "This is Ny Sar, where the Mother gathers in her Wild Daughter, Noyne," said Yandry.  This might be purely coincidental.  I dunno.  Catelyn/Stoneheart is currently looking for her daughters, seeking to reunite with them, to "gather them in."  Ny Sar is another "name jumble" of Sansa and Arya.  Reverse Ny Sar, then use the bolded letters.  Collect them from Sar, then Ny, then back to Sar.

Sar Ny: Sansa

Sar Ny: Arya

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9 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I believe lemons symbolize truth in some way.  As mentioned before, "Lonmouth" is a hint to the truth of who Lem with the yellow teeth is.  Sansa tends to "sugar" the truth; lemoncakes are sweetened lemons.  (When life gives you lemons, make lemonade lemoncakes.)  Jeor Mormont drinks lemon in his water every morning.  There's a saying (though it involves eating not drinking): [A person] eats X for breakfast.  Whatever term X is makes the subject of the sentence seem like a bad-ass.  "He eats rusty nails for breakfast," or as immortalized in Happy Gilmore, "I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast."  Jeor Mormont eats, or rather drinks, bitter truths for breakfast.

RE: Hair/heir There's also Harry the Heir!  (Sorry if you mentioned this previously; I don't recall.)  Harry's hair (he is said to have Jon Arryn's look) might lead people to doubt Sweetrobin's paternity. 

There's an interesting "almost alliteration" with Harry the Heir, and I wonder if that's intentional.  And if so, for what reason?  To look silly?  I recently began reading The Sworn Sword again, and it's occurred to me that the title too has an "almost alliteration."  Both Harry the Heir and the Sworn Sword would be alliteration if not for a silent letter in both of them.

Dam/Damn  

There's a drought occurring in Westeros during the Sworn Sword.  Many characters say that it is a curse put on the land by the gods due to BR's acts of kinslaying.  They're damned by the gods.  Due to the drought, the rivers are all running low.  Lady Webber dams up her stream so to feed her own crops, but the dam cuts off the water supply to areas below it, i.e. where Dunk serves.  Eventually, Trial by Combat ensues.  Lucas Longinch dies, bleeding into the river, serving as a blood sacrifice.  Dunk sees long white fish, probably the same type of fish Bran sees in BR's cave.  In short, by Dunk slaying Lucas Longinch, he's "undam(n)ed" others.

Truth seems like a plausible connection for lemons. Sansa also loves singers and their songs about heroes and love stories, though. While some of their songs are about old legends and can be enjoyed on a superficial level, singers seem to represent the unvarnished truths or coded messages about what is going on underneath the surface amidst the "Game of Thrones" being played by the highborn. Sansa seems to be oblivious to some of the intrigue going on around her - although she is learning fast - so I'm not sure I'd link her love of lemons to a love of truth. I saw a thread long ago (maybe the Food Code of Fire & Ice?) where people theorized that lemon could represent innocence. Sansa and Dany both long for less complicated, innocent days of their childhoods, and their love of lemons or memories of a lemon tree could reflect this.

Lem Lemoncloak is with a group that catches a fish and brings it back to camp to be cooked, and he asks whether there is any lemon available to prepare the fish. This is, of course, laughable to the woman who is about to cook the fish in the least fancy of ways. So this longing for lemon may show a wistful wish for his old highborn days hanging out with the king and having access to all kinds of rare delicacies.

I wonder whether Sansa's love of lemoncakes is a wordplay allusion to lemoncloak? Maybe Lem Lemoncloak will end up serving as her kingsguard at some point.

Jeor Mormont actually drinks his morning beer with lemon. Which leads me to wonder if there are teams for beer and wine that might coincide with bears and boars (swine) wordplay. Most highborn people seem to drink wine from the minute they wake up until they fall asleep at night. Tyrion might be a Dionysus figure, he is so strongly associated with wine. Tyrion is also strongly associated with pigs. I guess I would need to pay better attention on the next reread to who else is drinking beer and under what circumstances, to be able to explore a beer / wine contrast. If someone else has some beer insight, please feel free to chime in.

Harry the Heir practically hits us over the head with the hair / heir wordplay, adding his given name to the pun. I will be interested to see whether a path opens up for him to be the Lord of the Eyrie. My guess is he will not survive. sweetsunray has laid out an excellent analysis of (at least) the short-term prospects for Sansa in her "Sansa and the Giants" thread, along with some recent new insights in her "Bear and the Maiden Fair" thread. She does not see Harry the Heir living a long and happy life as Sansa's husband. Along with the Isis, Osiris and Horus analysis earlier in this discussion (which, I believe, foreshadows survival and strength for Sweetrobin Arryn), I think Harry the Heir will fall by the wayside sometime in TWoW.

Nice catch on dam / damn. It would be good to start looking at more of the wordplay from the World book and the Dunk & Egg stories, to see what insights we can glean about the ASOIAF motifs. Since Lady Webber ends up becoming a matriarch of House Lannister, her successful diversion of water serves as major foreshadowing of the Rains of Castamere episode in Tywin's history. She also figures into the hair / heir pun, because of her famous braid. At the close of the story, she ends up marrying into a house with no heirs (one might say their heirs were cut off) and Dunk cuts off her braid (her hair is cut off). Since she goes onto have many offspring with another husband, the point might be that hair can grow back and heirs can also grow back. Her status as a frequent widow is a big part of her back story, so I wonder whether she carries some messages for us about Widow's Wail? Is her use of a dam similar to the use of The Wall? Is there a wail / wall pun at work?

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I can tell you that all the wailing and crying of widows goes back to Nissa Nissa's cry of agony and ecstasy which broke the moon. It happens ALL THE TIME during Lightbringer forging metaphors. A great example would be when Mel gives a cry of anguish and ecstasy when she births the shadow baby. During the Oberyn and Gregor fight, both Cersei and Ellaria emit Widow's Wails at key moments. 

Nissa Nissa's cry broke the moon, and the sword Widow's Wail represents the red comet (for many reasons I have laid out in my podcasts). The red comet broke the moon, as did NN's cry - and he sword Widows Wail refers to both. Same for the dragonbinder horn, whose shivering hot scream splits the air like a sword. I don't need to get into the whole thing about sound and moon splitting here, but since you're talking about wailing... thought I would throw that in. 

Theres also a thing about the tears of the moon. The moon is like an eye, and when it was struck by the Lightbringer comet, it wept bleeding stars. Lyanna weeps bloody tears, the Lyssa weeps copiously as she is tossed out the moon door, with Alyssa's ghost torrent of tears falling nearby as a parallel. The Wall weeps in a scene with Jon snow, and he sees the meltwater in the cracks turn from streaks of red fire to black ice. Red fire refers to falling meteors, while black ice refers to comet nuclei (black ice) and Valyrian steel made from moon meteors (Neds black sword Ice). Black ice and red fire, an important combo - Jon dreamt of wielding a burning red sword while armored in black ice, you'll recall. Widows Wail and Oathkeeper are black ice, now decorated with red blood and a bit of gold flame (the hilt and cross guard). Essentially, Widows Wail is a sword named after the moon's death cry and which symbolizes it's bloody meteor tears. 

Neds Ice was directly compared to the comet by Arya, and indeed, Neds sword drinks his own blood, just as Lightbringer drank Nissa Nissa's blood. Lightbringer contains the essence of NN, and according to me theory, it was made from a moon meteor. The moon is Nissa Nissa in a sense, so LB was NN's sword which drank her own blood and became a sword of fire. Neds sword drinks his blood and is then decorated with flame. It WILL eventually light up with fire (prediction), and that fire will match its coloring - black shot through with red and bits of gold. 

Blackfyre, in other words. 

Much more on all these topics in my last podcast (link in my signature), if anyone is interested. 

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Yeah, thanks. I brought up the wail / wall comparison only because I thought it might relate to the topic of puns and wordplay. I realize there are many layers of metaphors and internal allusion at work in the books, and I know you have outlined them thoroughly on other threads. The puns and wordplay are what I'm trying to keep this thread focused on.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Truth seems like a plausible connection for lemons. Sansa also loves singers and their songs about heroes and love stories, though. While some of their songs are about old legends and can be enjoyed on a superficial level, singers seem to represent the unvarnished truths or coded messages about what is going on underneath the surface amidst the "Game of Thrones" being played by the highborn. Sansa seems to be oblivious to some of the intrigue going on around her - although she is learning fast - so I'm not sure I'd link her love of lemons to a love of truth. I saw a thread long ago (maybe the Food Code of Fire & Ice?) where people theorized that lemon could represent innocence. Sansa and Dany both long for less complicated, innocent days of their childhoods, and their love of lemons or memories of a lemon tree could reflect this.

Lem Lemoncloak is with a group that catches a fish and brings it back to camp to be cooked, and he asks whether there is any lemon available to prepare the fish. This is, of course, laughable to the woman who is about to cook the fish in the least fancy of ways. So this longing for lemon may show a wistful wish for his old highborn days hanging out with the king and having access to all kinds of rare delicacies.

I wonder whether Sansa's love of lemoncakes is a wordplay allusion to lemoncloak? Maybe Lem Lemoncloak will end up serving as her kingsguard at some point.

Truth does seem to be a theme associated with lemons, I'd go so far as to say the bitter truth... As opposed to the sweet stories of a summer child (innocence) you nicely point out Sansa's repeated references to this dichotomy.

But I don't like the idea that Dany's lemon tree is the same metaphor, it certainly shares the "bitter truth" aspect, but lacks the sweet desert portion... Instead Dany remembers the sweet smell of home... Flowered feilds, perfume, etc. Of course, as many have pointed out before the problem is that both the lemon tree and sweet smell are tied to the house with the red door, supposedly in Braavos, but neither Lemons nor sweet smells fit with Braavos.

I would also agree that Lem Lemoncloak possesses a secret, and is likely Ser Lonmouth, the knight of skulls and kisses. But this identity alone isn't really much of a secret... he was however a close confidant of Rhaegar, and was at the Tourney of Harrenhall.

I expect his secret to be about Dany and not Sansa... But my theories about Dany's parentage don't seem popular round these parts... What are the other ideas for what his secret is?

 

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Yeah, thanks. I brought up the wail / wall comparison only because I thought it might relate to the topic of puns and wordplay. I realize there are many layers of metaphors and internal allusion at work in the books, and I know you have outlined them thoroughly on other threads. The puns and wordplay are what I'm trying to keep this thread focused on.

There are several with the moon tears motif. The tears of Lys and Lysa's tears refer to the same thing, the moon's very deadly tears. When Oberyn gives Obara the choice of weapon between his spear and his mother's tears, that's a joke because the mother's tears (the moon mother's anyway) are actually spears: sun-spears. The last line of that story is that her mother died crying. Just like Lysa (notice how many times tears are mentions in her death scene), and the second moon that fell from heaven. 

As for wall and wail... the wall is a Lightbringer symbol, as is Widows Wail, so is the Wall a "widow's wall?" It may well be - there might be a black stone foundation under all that ice, and if it's black moon meteor stone... there you go. Also, Ygritte says the Wall was made with blood, and certainly Lightbringer was made with blood (Widow's Wail as well). The Wall weeps red fire and black ice, as I mentioned, so we can see that wailing widows and weeping walls both produce Lightbringer symbols. 

Thats what I got for ya in that department. What did you think of "grey-gore?" And have we discussed the Bolt-on family? ;)

 

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11 hours ago, Seams said:

so I'm not sure I'd link her love of lemons to a love of truth.

Nor would I.  I meant "sweetening" the truth as in bending the truth.  Think UnKiss, defense of Joffrey, and other "denials."

 

 

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ruin / rune

drowned / crowned

The discussion of the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter caused me to think (ruminate?) on a couple different wordplay possibilities. The crown is (or was) supposedly covered with runes, which brought me back to the rune / ruin pun. Using the "A Search of Ice and Fire" website, I found that there are relatively few mentions of runes in the text, which leads me to believe that things with runes are important or carry a purpose. So far, the only other things with runes on them are:

  • Lord Yohn Royce's armor (and some contemporary copies of the ancient armor, worn by his sons),
  • Tormund Giantsbane's armbands (one of the first details described when Jon sees him for the first time),
  • the carved stone warhammer on a tomb (worn away by centuries of weather),
  • Ser Ilyn Payne's silver sword at the purple wedding (used to cut the giant pie),
  • the big horn Mance tells Jon is the Horn of Joruman (the gold bands with runes are always mentioned when this horn is referenced),
  • unreadable histories, accoring to Sam Tarly: "The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later."
  • a bronze dagger on the table before the Widow of the Waterfront who finds berths for Ser Jorah and Tyrion on the Selaesori Qhoran.

The quote from Sam seems like a fairly clear hint that we are supposed to look at ruins - piles of rocks or stones that used to be castles or other buildings - to learn about history. What are some of the ruins that are most likely to convey history? Harrenhal, for sure. Abandoned castles at the Wall such as the Nightfort. The old keep at Winterfell. Valyria? Will it take someone like Sam or Tyrion, who has read lots of books and developed expertise, to be able to decipher the meaning of various ruins or runes?

By the way, I think Tormund Giantsbane's armbands are intended to be linked to the gold bands with runes on the (fake?) Horn of Joruman. That horn is burned, if I recall correctly, like a ruin. But the gold bands with runes may survive the fire. Or maybe they are destroyed but Tormund's arm bands will be deciphered and the information will be discovered that way.

Hmm. This may be getting too complicated, but I have this suspicion that Tormund and the sword Long Claw are symbolically linked. I wonder whether there is a bruin / rune connection, as well as a ruin / rune pun? Bears are such fertile ground for wordplay.

While I'm on this thread, I thought I'd throw out drowned and crowned as a possible pair for wordplay. I noticed that there seems to be a correlation between a king being crowned and a king being doomed. In the last Catelyn POV chapter of AGoT, Robb's bannermen are buzzing because Renly has been crowned, goshdarnit. This is apparently an important step; more important than the fact that Renly had gathered an army and taken a wife for purposes of strengthening his alliance. So the north men quickly declare Robb King in the North and insist he be crowned. Soon both men are dead. Dany's brother, Viserys, of course dies because of the way he is crowned with molten gold.

The crowned / drowned pairing may not work: I realize Joffrey is crowned quite a long time before he dies, and Tommen is still hanging on after being crowned awhile ago. I can't remember whether we ever hear of Stannis wearing a crown. He has a crown as part of the stag's head in his sigil. Maybe a person has to be in the Crownlands to be safely crowned?

The thing is, though, that drowning in Westeros doesn't always mean dying. The Iron Islanders show us that drowning is, in fact, a way to ensure that one never dies. Perhaps similarly, "Renly's Ghost" comes back when Garlan Tyrell wears his armor in the Battle of the Blackwater. Will there be a symbolic return of Robb Stark? His crown is last seen on the head of a prostitute who is hanging around outside of The Twins after the Red Wedding. I don't know if that's intended as a symbolic return of Robb Stark, though.

Besides the Iron Born, Tywin Lannister is strongly associated with drowning. He drowns the Reyne family at Castamere and the Tarbeck heir in a well. Other notable Lannister-related drownings are Cersei's friend, Melara, who drowns in a well on the night Cersei has her fortune foretold by Maggy the Frog, and Tyrion, who drowns in the Rhoyne River in Essos.

Anybody else see a stronger explanation for a drowned / crowned pairing? Or does this wordplay not quite work?

Maybe I should be looking at crow / crone / crown, instead?

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16 hours ago, Seams said:

While I'm on this thread, I thought I'd throw out drowned and crowned as a possible pair for wordplay. I noticed that there seems to be a correlation between a king being crowned and a king being doomed. In the last Catelyn POV chapter of AGoT, Robb's bannermen are buzzing because Renly has been crowned, goshdarnit. This is apparently an important step; more important than the fact that Renly had gathered an army and taken a wife for purposes of strengthening his alliance. So the north men quickly declare Robb King in the North and insist he be crowned. Soon both men are dead. Dany's brother, Viserys, of course dies because of the way he is crowned with molten gold.

The crowned / drowned pairing may not work: I realize Joffrey is crowned quite a long time before he dies, and Tommen is still hanging on after being crowned awhile ago. I can't remember whether we ever hear of Stannis wearing a crown. He has a crown as part of the stag's head in his sigil. Maybe a person has to be in the Crownlands to be safely crowned?

The thing is, though, that drowning in Westeros doesn't always mean dying. The Iron Islanders show us that drowning is, in fact, a way to ensure that one never dies. Perhaps similarly, "Renly's Ghost" comes back when Garlan Tyrell wears his armor in the Battle of the Blackwater. Will there be a symbolic return of Robb Stark? His crown is last seen on the head of a prostitute who is hanging around outside of The Twins after the Red Wedding. I don't know if that's intended as a symbolic return of Robb Stark, though.

There's definitely a connection between drowned and crowned with extensions to gold/cold, skulls and lemons and I think you're quite right about the correlation between a king being crowned a king being doomed. Further, it all relates to rising from the dead. 

To take Renly as an example: he is first crowned and later drowns on his own blood after the shadow-attack:

The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood.

All of him drowns, including his armour. Later he returns as a ghost to lead a host (ghost/host). Jon likely drowns on his own blood as well. It's not that clear because the first wound is said to graze his neck but perhaps the cut went deeper than he realized because after that he seems to go numb, not being able to draw his sword:

He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”

 Tying this to Renly -  Like Renly he returns from the grave but with a difference - his return is physical. He also drowns and has never been crowned. And I'll throw this in to complete the picture - Jon Snow, having returned from the grave, is (will be) Lord of (G)Hosts. 

Patchface's case is similar to Jon's - he drowns first and then is crowned, crowned with his ridiculous clanging hat. In one of his pronouncements he states : 'under the sea, men wear no hats', essentially -  the drowned wear no crowns. So it seems rising in the flesh is only possible if one drowns before being crowned. Crowned/drowned also appears to include gowned. From Jamie's dream:

In his dreams, the dead came burning, gowned in swirling green flames. Jaime danced around them with a golden sword, but for every one he struck down two more arose to take his place.

It gets quite complex because crowns are also associated with skulls. Volantene Honors have a crowned king on one side and a skull on the other, linking crowns with death and again implying a crowned king is a dead king. Bittersteel's skull is gilded gold, comparable with Visery's molten gold crown - gilding a skull or a head is reminiscent of preservation (think of tarred heads). So again we have this idea of crowns and gold linked to preserving life in one form or other. This brings me to the gold/cold hand as in Symon Silver-Tongue's song:

..Hands of gold are always cold but a woman's hands are warm...

Hands of gold are also deathly - Tyrion strangles Shae with a chain of hands of gold. Coldhands is a wight with cold/(gold?) hands. Gold/cold hands are possibly associated with males (Jamie, Coldhands, Tywin's chain of gold hands) and with a 'cold' raising where the flesh is in a state of preservation without any vital processes (re Jamie's dream - golden hand, golden sword - rising dead).

I like @Isobel Harper's thoughts on lemons and truth, lemons/lemore/moredane. I'd add lem(ore) - gold ore, yellow gold. With all these links between gold and cold, I'm wondering if Lem Lemoncloak is meant to contrast Thoros or Beric and a 'warm' raising of the dead. The Lord's Kiss is a kiss of fire that contributes to reviving Beric and is linked to 'a woman's hands are warm', the mermaid's kiss that restores Patchface, the woman's kiss that restores the stony Shrouded Lord as well as the kiss that revives the whispering heads (restores speech and wits). The GoHH wants a kiss from Lem, saying his mouth will taste like lemons while hers tastes like bones. She's as old as the hills and complains: “My hair comes out in handfuls and no one has kissed me for a thousand years. I'm not sure how to interpret this. Could be she wants to curb the aging process with a preserving kiss from Lem? If Lem is Lonmouth, the knight of skulls and kisses, does this mean there's a cold kiss (kiss of death) as well as a warm kiss (kiss of life)? Or perhaps the the kisses are warm and the GoHH wants a new infusion of life? I just looked up House Lonmouth - their words are "The Choice Is Yours" so perhaps this is a clue to skulls as death and kisses as life. Still, would this be a warm or a cold raising? Mel sees Patchface with bloody red lips in the midst of skulls in one of her visions. Hmm.

 

I've associated Lemore with Lemure (monkey with Valyrian features - purple eyes and silver fur) and also with ghosts - if I recall, Lemures are thought to be the spirits of the dead. 

In Malagasy culture lemurs, and animals in general, have souls (ambiroa) which can get revenge if mocked while alive or if killed in a cruel fashion. Because of this, lemurs, like many other elements of daily life, have been a source of taboos, known locally as fady, which can be based around stories with four basic principles. A village or region may believe that a certain type of lemur may be the ancestor of the clan. They may also believe that a lemur's spirit may get revenge. Alternatively, the animal may appear as a benefactor. Lemurs are also thought to impart their qualities, good or bad, onto human babies.[165]In general, fady extend beyond a sense of the forbidden, but can include events that bring bad luck. (source)

Actually, because of the Valyrian connection and the spirit reference, I think Lemore is Ashara Dayne. 

 

I have a couple more for you:

juggle/smuggle

The most obvious connection to me is Davos smuggling Mel into Storm's end to birth a shadow (he essentially smuggles a shadow) and the exchange between Ser Alliser and Jon regarding juggling - specifically Jon teaching Ghost to juggle: Ghost smuggles a ghost (Jon's shadow or perhaps an ancestral shadow back into Jon - something along those lines.

 

Bael/bail Baelor/bailer

Baelor bails Aemon the Dragonknight out by releasing him from his cage prison. 

Bael the Bard bails the Starks out by providing Brandon the Daughterless with an heir. 

Actually this one is really interesting. I'm working hard at it at the moment. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

There's definitely a connection between drowned and crowned with extensions to gold/cold, skulls and lemons and I think you're quite right about the correlation between a king being crowned a king being doomed. Further, it all relates to rising from the dead. 

...

juggle/smuggle

The most obvious connection to me is Davos smuggling Mel into Storm's end to birth a shadow (he essentially smuggles a shadow) and the exchange between Ser Alliser and Jon regarding juggling - specifically Jon teaching Ghost to juggle: Ghost smuggles a ghost (Jon's shadow or perhaps an ancestral shadow back into Jon - something along those lines.

 

Bael/bail Baelor/bailer

Baelor bails Aemon the Dragonknight out by releasing him from his cage prison. 

Bael the Bard bails the Starks out by providing Brandon the Daughterless with an heir. 

Actually this one is really interesting. I'm working hard at it at the moment. 

These are excellent! Thank you for the added depth to the crowned/drowned pair. The citations you provide really seem to confirm that GRRM was doing something intentional there.

I am also grateful to the analysis of the magical kisses - an offshoot of your cold/gold description. There is a motif there, for sure, but I haven't found a link among the various hot/cold, bloody, greyscale, etc. varieties of kisses. I wonder how Sansa's "unkiss" from Sandor would fit into the motif?

Juggle/Smuggle is a great catch! I have been trying to figure out why Davos is the only smuggler described in the stories. There had to be something special about his character and about smuggling. He does function for Stannis as Ghost functions for Jon - a king's guard and ultra-loyal supporter. When he smuggles Melisandre into Storm's End, he mentions that he smuggled life, in the form of onions, last time he took that route; this time he is smuggling death. Crows, crones and fools have a special ability to go back and forth between the door that separates life and death. Davos (another guy who survived drowning) must be one of GRRM's special breed of wise fools. I will be interested to see how the wordplay evolves, as I think Davos will become more important early in the next book.

I have also been recently considering the Bael the Bard and Baelor the Blessed connection. Bael is associated with the Winterfell crypt, which is, I think linked to the lower levels of the Red Keep - both are "forges" where people are turned into weapons. Of course, Bael is a famous seducer and Baelor is a famous prude. Bael impregnates the Stark heiress and hides her in the crypt; Baelor imprisons his sisters in the Maidenvault of the Red Keep to prevent himself or others from lusting after them. I'll be curious if you come up with a good explanation for a key player who is definitely not Baelor but not exactly Bael, either - he's just kind of Bael-ish . . .

Edited by Seams
forgot to discuss juggle/smuggle

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As for crowning and killing, the Queenmaker chapter is full of it. They talk about crowning Myrcella being the same as killing her, and Darkstar says "this is how you get what you want, with a sword of steel and not a crown of a gold." (paraphrase)

I think all of this has to do with moon sickles and moon halos. The crescent moon is associated with curved sacrificial knives, animal horns, and also crowns. "The moon crowned the moon maiden" is another line for that Arianna chapter - it refers to the moon appearing over top a constellation called the Moon Maid. She's crowned with a moon sickle then slashed with one (Darkstar's sword). This all goes back to Nissa Nissa the sacrificed moon maiden. Because here was an eclipse alignment when the moon cracked (it wandered too close to the sun), the moon was crowned with a golden halo right before it was sacrificed. Thats why crowning and killing is the same for moon people in ASOIAF. 

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