The Fallen Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 2 hours ago, ElizabethB. said: To clarify, if, say, the Baltics or Finland face a war with Russia you don't think it is a big deal because it doesn't threaten the West? I'm comfortable in stating that your statement comes close to his sentiment. 1 hour ago, Risto said: Well, let we not forget that West started first with ignoring the International Law with Kosovo so criticism of Russia is very rich coming from West. I personally don't think Putin is a commendable individual, but I am not so convinced in the benevolent Western leaders. Especially since the chaos they made in Libya and the situation in Syria. Not to mention of making Kosovo the fertile land for ISIS soldiers thus possibly destabilizing entire Balkans and Europe. Don't get me wrong. I'm very much a realist. And Free Northman's scenario is more realistic. I just don't think that we, the U.S., a country that espouses democracy and is supposed to defend it throughout the world, should turn their back on Ukraine and other countries. And I am aware of all the fucked-up shit we've done in the past, including taking down democratically elected governments on behalf of U.S. corporations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 28 minutes ago, The Fallen said: Don't get me wrong. I'm very much a realist. And Free Northman's scenario is more realistic. I just don't think that we, the U.S., a country that espouses democracy and is supposed to defend it throughout the world, should turn their back on Ukraine and other countries. And I am aware of all the fucked-up shit we've done in the past, including taking down democratically elected governments on behalf of U.S. corporations. Of course that we shouldn't turn the back on Ukraine, but the fucked-up things of USA are very much present. We have complete fiasco in Syria where some of the generals stated that some of the weapons USA provided to the rebels find its way to some nefarious groups. NATO "liberated" Kosovo making the only ethnically clean country in the world, and 15 years after we have deep ties between ISIS and Muslims there. So, the idea that it was all in the past doesn't hold. Crimea is on USA as it is on Russia. Would Russia annexed Crimea even if West didn't break International law with Kosovo? I believe so. But, now they do have the platform where they can literally say "You are no better than us so stop pretending". USA opened the can of worms, well, time has come to learn how to live with it. I do believe that Russia and USA needs to learn how to peacefully coexist and even collaborate because we are all facing great danger in ISIS. And I have zero doubts that they will be discriminating both nations when they start killing. So, we all better pull ourselves together, accept differences and solve this much bigger issue we have. ETA: I know it is idealistic, but it needs to be said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Well, the longer all these countries allow ISIS to hang around the more dangerous they'll get. Especially in exporting their philosophy. If Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the Assad regime, Russia and the Iraqi Sunni actually fought ISIS they could defeat them quite easily, I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 10 hours ago, ElizabethB. said: To clarify, if, say, the Baltics or Finland face a war with Russia you don't think it is a big deal because it doesn't threaten the West? I wonder if Finland will join NATO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said: I wonder if Finland will join NATO? No. Finnish foreign policy these past seventy years has revolved around one simple goal: don't annoy Russia. If Finland can convince Russia that it won't be a backdoor to an attack on Leningrad/St Petersburg, Russia leaves it alone and everyone is happy. Russia is also a major trading partner with Finland, so the EU sanctions actually bite Helsinki too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: If Finland can convince Russia that it won't be a backdoor to an attack on Leningrad/St Petersburg, Russia leaves it alone and everyone is happy. Russia is also a major trading partner with Finland, so the EU sanctions actually bite Helsinki too. Do you think that a military base or three for Russia on Finnish soil would be enough to convince Russia, or would that, convincment, require an annexation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Neither are necessary. Finland had balanced the interests of the West and the Soviet Union for the entirety of the cold war, they can do the same with Russia. It's not a particularly coveted prize -- unlike the Middle East, there are no oil or other rare resources there and it's cold even by Russian standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennis of the Brown Shield Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 27 minutes ago, Altherion said: Neither are necessary. Finland had balanced the interests of the West and the Soviet Union for the entirety of the cold war, they can do the same with Russia. It's not a particularly coveted prize -- unlike the Middle East, there are no oil or other rare resources there and it's cold even by Russian standards. Also with a strong military for its size, as opposed most other European countries that have let idiot politicians dismantle most of their armed forces. Finland has a similar strength military as Germany does, with only around 1/15th of the population. So unless the Russians use nukes they would have a hard time occupying the country. Because while large their conventional armed forces still seem to be lacking in quality. Here is an interesting writeup from a Western volunteer in the Ukrainian war, who pretty much confirms both Russian and Ukrainian soldiers to be pretty shitty http://sofrep.com/47483/the-russian-paper-tiger-a-foreign-volunteer-in-the-ukrainian-armys-view-of-russian-troops/ I've also read other reports in Swedish from volunteers who went down there, that were even more critical. Some stories they wrote were comedy-movie worthy, honestly. In any case, it would seem reasonable for the Russians to in the long run try getting closer to USA and Europe rather than doing their own thing. After the breakup of the Soviet Union they don't really have the population size to become a stand alone superpower again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said: In any case, it would seem reasonable for the Russians to in the long run try getting closer to USA and Europe rather than doing their own thing. After the breakup of the Soviet Union they don't really have the population size to become a stand alone superpower again. I agree. But, then again, it would seem reasonable for USA and Europe do the same. And having the missiles and shields throughout the Europe doesn't install trust and good faith. 1 hour ago, Altherion said: Neither are necessary. Finland had balanced the interests of the West and the Soviet Union for the entirety of the cold war, they can do the same with Russia. It's not a particularly coveted prize -- unlike the Middle East, there are no oil or other rare resources there and it's cold even by Russian standards. But it would improve the winter tourist offer The landscapes are breathtaking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The cold war logic doesn't really apply anymore. Anyway, don't mean to derail the thread anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 On 2/21/2016 at 6:43 PM, Free Northman Reborn said: It seems to me that the US was happy with Russia as long as it was a failed state ruled by a Western lapdog drunkard. But as soon as Russia started getting its shit together and reasserting its power around its own borders, the West suddenly found that unacceptable for some reason. No need to look further. This is basically it. While drunk Yeltsin was ruling Russia and while the country was literally falling apart and its people lived in horrible conditions under the auspices of the IMF reforms, all was well and Russia was cool. Never mind all the oligarchs, or Yeltsin bringing out the tanks and shooting at the Parliament (yes, that happened). Also, all this silly hypothesizing about Finland is just that: silly. It's precisely how imperialistic foreign policy establishment convinces people of their bull**** policies. Saddam attacked Kuwait. What if Saddam attacked Britain (with WMDs no less)? Russia attacked Ukraine. What if Russia attacks Finland? I can do it too! US attacked Iraq. What if US attacks Mexico? (Gotta fight those immigrants and drug trade!) False analogy is false and does no credit to the one who brought it up. It serves only to pivot away from the relevant points and get the discussion bogged down in hypotheticals that no one who knows first thing about foreign policy actually believes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennis of the Brown Shield Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 20 hours ago, Risto said: I agree. But, then again, it would seem reasonable for USA and Europe do the same. And having the missiles and shields throughout the Europe doesn't install trust and good faith. But it would improve the winter tourist offer The landscapes are breathtaking... No, I agree. USA and Europe haven't been acting in very good faith towards Russia either. This is certainly a great factor for what we have seen in Syria as well, where the West has been supporting radical rebels largely to have a chance of kicking Russia out of the Middle East. Another interesting factor related to this topic is Putin's support to the nationalist parties that are now gaining ground throughout the West. The National Front in France has been promised lots of funding from Russia for their next presidential campaign there, for example. These nationalist movements tend to have relatively Russian positive views, at least compared to most established parties in the West, so this might well be how Putin is planning to improve Russia's relationship with Europe in the long term. 40 minutes ago, Mr Fixit said: No need to look further. This is basically it. While drunk Yeltsin was ruling Russia and while the country was literally falling apart and its people lived in horrible conditions under the auspices of the IMF reforms, all was well and Russia was cool. Never mind all the oligarchs, or Yeltsin bringing out the tanks and shooting at the Parliament (yes, that happened). Also, all this silly hypothesizing about Finland is just that: silly. It's precisely how imperialistic foreign policy establishment convinces people of their bull**** policies. Saddam attacked Kuwait. What if Saddam attacked Britain (with WMDs no less)? Russia attacked Ukraine. What if Russia attacks Finland? I can do it too! US attacked Iraq. What if US attacks Mexico? (Gotta fight those immigrants and drug trade!) False analogy is false and does no credit to the one who brought it up. It serves only to pivot away from the relevant points and get the discussion bogged down in hypotheticals that no one who knows first thing about foreign policy actually believes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 You beat me to it. I should've posted that picture when Finland came up! (Wait a minute... Did you... No, you didn't... you actually thought I was being serious about Mexico... man!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 It's not just Ukraine, it's Georgia as well not to mention what they are doing to Chechnya and the "rebublic" of Karelia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hahaha, "what they are doing to Karelia", oh man, this is getting richer by the moment. I'm not kidding, these Ruskies are itching to attack Zeta II Reticuli next and those xenomorphs are sure gonna need us to support their moderate opposition. You can quote me on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 It is not that hard to find info of Karelia (an area occupied from Finland), if anyone is interested I'd encourage to study the issue. Maybe not from the Sputniknews, though, if one wants a reliable source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 There's an article trending today about the U.S. up armoring (w/ tanks, missiles, etc.) strategic sites in Norway and around the Baltics in order to strengthen NATO's capability and deterence to Russia. Also the U.S. is sending F-15's to Finland that will be stationed about 100 miles from the Russian border. So it seems a very natural topic of discussion just now. Interestingly, 77% of Russia is in Asia, but near as I can tell (smirk) none of her is in the Levant unless we are talking about the occupation troops specifically, so I don't know if this is the right thread for the whole Russo/Finn/NATO posturing? Personally I don't mind discussing it though, because we all know how the campaign in Syria is spilling out into the broader geopolitical relations between various actors including Russia and the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, ElizabethB. said: It is not that hard to find info of Karelia (an area occupied from Finland), if anyone is interested I'd encourage to study the issue. Maybe not from the Sputniknews, though, if one wants a reliable source. Yeah, yeah, while we're at it, might as well talk about Alsace and Lorraine, Pomerania and Silesia. I really don't think you'd want to go there unless you have a historical axe to grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Just now, Mr Fixit said: Yeah, yeah, while we're at it might as well talk about Alsace and Lorraine, Pomerania and Silesia. I really don't think you'd want to go there. Give me your best shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 That's just it, I don't intend to give it my best shot because you're, for no discernible reason, steering this discussion to WWI and WWII-era border redrawing that was widespread all across Europe. I'm telling you: this line of discussion does you no favours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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