How rich are the Lannister's?

[Neds Secret]

14 minutes ago, mediterraneo said:

I think we are missing the point here. my question comes from the first statement of that "six millon debt" by Baelish, which I questioned because of Tyrion questioning his accountings, suggesting he is stealing from the money of the Crown and taking more debts than what he recognized in the Small Council.
And the two citations there are NOT a statement from the bank that says that their effective credit with the Crown is under two millons dragons.

I wonder how Tywin would have responded to the discovery of accounting reports that seemed to indicate that Baelish had been embezzling Tywins gold, I would have thought Tywin, who is rumoured to have shat gold, would have put more resources into accounting for it, it seems out of character for Tywin to be so blasé about his gold!

[Minstral]

43 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

I wonder how Tywin would have responded to the discovery of accounting reports that seemed to indicate that Baelish had been embezzling Tywins gold, I would have thought Tywin, who is rumoured to have shat gold, would have put more resources into accounting for it, it seems out of character for Tywin to be so blasé about his gold!

Despite Tywin's reputation, he fails to size up what type of man Baelish is just as much as he would fail to separate possible inconsistencies in accounts with his preconceived notion of Tyrion's incompetence. Tywin was in KL for about half a year before Baelish leaves town, which is a pretty short time  while he is also juggling the many alliances that House Lannister developed overnight, and Tyrion fills the role of Master of Coin for an even shorter period. He would believe his own biased hatred of Tyrion over his son pointing out inconsistencies within the Crown's debts (that is, if Baelish was embezzling which is implied more than it is confirmed).

[Forlong the Fat]

7 hours ago, mediterraneo said:

I think we are missing the point here. my question comes from the first statement of that "six millon debt" by Baelish, which I questioned because of Tyrion questioning his accountings, suggesting he is stealing from the money of the Crown and taking more debts than what he recognized in the Small Council.
And the two citations there are NOT a statement from the bank that says that their effective credit with the Crown is under two millons dragons.

There's really no reason to think the debt exceeds 6 million. Little finger could embezzle plenty within that debt and it would be far more dangerous to create additional, secret debts. That is to say it would be much smarter to inflate the cost of things and funnel the money to his businesses (and there are suggestions of this) than to to do what you're suggesting. 

[Neds Secret]

15 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

There's really no reason to think the debt exceeds 6 million. Little finger could embezzle plenty within that debt and it would be far more dangerous to create additional, secret debts. That is to say it would be much smarter to inflate the cost of things and funnel the money to his businesses (and there are suggestions of this) than to to do what you're suggesting. 

So even if the crowns debt is 6 million or even greater what does this truly mean to Tywin? Does this ruin him? Does Tywin need to do some miracles and produce gold from "nowhere" as he is rumoured to be able to or is this just a little inconvenience because the Lannisters are worth ten times this? How wealthy are the Lannisters truly?

[Neds Secret]

So it seems that nobody has any idea of how wealthy the Lannisters truly are. If Tywin had loaned all his money to the Robert Baratheon held iron throne at the start of AGoT and therefore needed to keep the throne in order to escape from poverty or destitution? Are the Lannisters just posers with no money left but a reputation for always paying thir debts, Would Tywin really have been so incompetent to throw all his money at the king who refused to count coppers, a king who seemed to have no intention to repay it, it just does not make any sense to me, is gold not very important to Tywin and the Lannisters?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

So it seems that nobody has any idea of how wealthy the Lannisters truly are. If Tywin had loaned all his money to the Robert Baratheon held iron throne at the start of AGoT and therefore needed to keep the throne in order to escape from poverty or destitution? Are the Lannisters just posers with no money left but a reputation for always paying thir debts, Would Tywin really have been so incompetent to throw all his money at the king who refused to count coppers, a king who seemed to have no intention to repay it, it just does not make any sense to me, is gold not very important to Tywin and the Lannisters?

1) Why would Tywin have loaned all his money to Robert? That has never been suggested in the books.

2) Obviously the Lannisters have money, even if their mines had run dry (which we have been told they have not) as they are the Overlords of the richest realm in Westeros who either rule or partly rule the 3rd largest city in Westeros.

3) Where do you get the idea that Robert had no intention of repaying it? The Crown was in debt to many people, most notably the Lannisters, but we also know they were making regular repayments on those loans.

[Neds Secret]

7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

1) Why would Tywin have loaned all his money to Robert? That has never been suggested in the books.

2) Obviously the Lannisters have money, even if their mines had run dry (which we have been told they have not) as they are the Overlords of the richest realm in Westeros who either rule or partly rule the 3rd largest city in Westeros.

3) Where do you get the idea that Robert had no intention of repaying it? The Crown was in debt to many people, most notably the Lannisters, but we also know they were making regular repayments on those loans.

1) that's what I am endeavouring to discover, did Tywin lend three million gold dragons  to the iron throne and was that all he had or does he have a lot more as posed in the OP

2) how much do they have, how much is a lot? Is 3 million a lot, how much revenue would a city like Lannisport generate, what is there GDP?

3) I see no evidence that he was making any effort to repay it, he doesn't seem too concerned about it to me, do you have any textual evidence that shows he was making plans to repay it? It seems a little odd to me that the crown was enjoying record revenues and yet was so deeply indebted, fiscal matters did not concern Robert, at least that was my impression, do you disagree?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

1) that's what I am endeavouring to discover, did Tywin lend three million gold dragons  to the iron throne and was that all he had or does he have a lot more as posed in the OP

Clearly the Lannisters have more. Robert may well spend a lot of cash butt somehow I can't see him spending the same amount of money Tywin has raised in taxes from his rich vassals in the last 15 years.

While 3 million is a large amount of money, and not something Tywin (or any Rich lord) would be willing to wipe out it is not a game changer for the Lannisters.

3 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

2) how much do they have, how much is a lot? Is 3 million a lot, how much revenue would a city like Lannisport generate, what is there GDP?

We have no idea. Literally no idea. We have little idea about how much his bannermen raise in taxes, his expenses his other areas of profit.

There is simply not enough data to give any kind of answer as we know very little about the Westerlands and the economy of Westeros in general.

3 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

3) I see no evidence that he was making any effort to repay it, he doesn't seem too concerned about it to me, do you have any textual evidence that shows he was making plans to repay it?

Loans are not paid back in one lump sum. They are paid back in payments over time, we see this with the Iron Bank and the Faith who were not angry that the complete loan was not being paid back but that Cersei had stopped the regular payments.

"Orton says it is the gold he really wants. That he means to withhold his blessing until the crown resumes its payments."

The Lannisters, like the Tyrells, Iron Bank and Faith would be receiving regular payments on their loan. These 'payments' would have interest involved.

The trouble with Robert and his crown that they were spending more (which would include loan repayments) than they were bringing in so were continually loaning more.

3 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

It seems a little odd to me that the crown was enjoying record revenues and yet was so deeply indebted, fiscal matters did not concern Robert, at least that was my impression, do you disagree?

I agree, he didn't. He was mollycoddled by richer Houses and institutions who were happy to lend him money for the influence they gained from that. Happened frequently with most Kings. Most likely the Lannisters and Tyrells would have been able to monetize that influence through other avenues while still receiving regular smaller payments (with interest) on their initial larger loans.

 

 

[redtree]

Not 20 million gold rich in cash. In medieval time, people used simple instruments to dig gold so it's not possible that the Rock yields more than equivalent 3 million gold coin a year. He also has to pay the miners, operating fee, maintenance for the Rock itself etc

One odd thing is that Tyrion said the he had never eaten anything so lavish in Ilyrio's mansion compared to all the Westerosi castles that he had visited. I think it's highly possible that Ilyrio is richer than Tywin, after all Corlys was the richest man in the continent by doing trade, beating the Hightower and Lannister

[direpupy]

On ‎20‎-‎2‎-‎2016 at 4:00 PM, Nyrhex said:

Kevan considered covering the Iron Bank debt out of the Lannister pocket. 

Quick calculation:

6 mil in debt, 3 to the Lannisters, nearly 1 mil to the faith of the Seven, and ~2 mil to Tyroshi trade cartels, the Tyrells and the Iron Bank combined. Let's say that the Iron Bank had 1 mil, and the Tyrells and the Tyroshi have ~0.5 mil each. Any less and there is little point in even mentioning the small sums to the Tyrells and the Tyroshi. 

The Lannisters can survive without the periodical payments of interest from the Crown, can afford to loan 3 mil in cash, and have available cash to cover ~1 mil for the Iron Bank if they will not accept a deal. This is pretty much all we know. The Lannisters can function without ~4 mil.

So, considering that the Lannisters still need reserves, still need to diversify thier investments and likely loan to others, yes, it seems that the Lannisters are worth plenty more than 4 mil. Are they worth 20 mil? Likely not. Tytos nearly ran them to the ground with smaller loans, so this is likely thier largest investment by far, and Tywin's attempt at securing a legacy, with a future king that shares his blood. So I'd say closer to 6 mil than to 20.

They amount owned to the Tyrells was 1 mil. so its 3 mil to Lannisters, 1 mil to Tyrells, 900.000 to the Faith  and the rest divided between the iron bank and the Tyroshi

[Neds Secret]

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

They amount owned to the Tyrells was 1 mil. so its 3 mil to Lannisters, 1 mil to Tyrells, 900.000 to the Faith  and the rest divided between the iron bank and the Tyroshi

Do you have a source for this breakdown?

[direpupy]

On ‎24‎-‎2‎-‎2016 at 8:27 AM, Neds Secret said:

Do you have a source for this breakdown?

I don't have my books with me right now so i can't give you quote's, but The 1 mil of the Tyrells is in Game when Ned hears for the first time that the Iron Throne is 6 mil in debt. And the 900000 of the Faith is the sum that the High Sparrow mentions in his conversation with Cersei the same one in wich she concents to the restoration of the Faith militant wich is in Feast.

[Neds Secret]

20 hours ago, direpupy said:

I don't have my books with me right now so i can't give you quote's, but The 1 mil of the Tyrells is in Game when Ned hears for the first time that the Iron Throne is 6 mil in debt. And the 900000 of the Faith is the sum that the High Sparrow mentions in his conversation with Cersei the same one in wich she concents to the restoration of the Faith militant wich is in Feast.

So the iron throne which is currently sat by the Lannisters in the guise of Baratheons is 3 million in debt to outside parties and 3 million in debt to themselves. My question is Can the Lannisters just pay the debts owed and wipe the money that the crown owes the Lannisters with scarce a worry? Or is this money just about all they have?

[direpupy]

5 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

So the iron throne which is currently sat by the Lannisters in the guise of Baratheons is 3 million in debt to outside parties and 3 million in debt to themselves. My question is Can the Lannisters just pay the debts owed and wipe the money that the crown owes the Lannisters with scarce a worry? Or is this money just about all they have?

In the books they can pay it, this becomes clear when Kevan thinks of that as an option at the end of Dance. In the show well that's one more thing they f..ked up.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

 My question is Can the Lannisters just pay the debts owed and wipe the money that the crown owes the Lannisters with scarce a worry?

It is possible that they could do that, but why would they? Why would they willingly write off a huge sum of money when they don't have to. They can afford to stall the payments but writing them off would be incredibly stupid.

The Crown should be able to pay its debts, they have badly mismanaged for a number of years. A competent Hand and Small Council should be able to reverse their current financial position in time and the Lannisters were willing to give them that time, their other creditors (Iron Bank & the Faith) were not.

 

3 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

 

Or is this money just about all they have?

Of course it is not. Not only do they have their mines, whatever reserves they have built up over thousands of years in control and Lannisport but they also collect taxes from the Lords of the richest kingdom in Westeros.

You seem to be puzzled about the situation so let me try and simplify it for you. You have 10k in the Bank, own your own House and have a well paying job. You borrow a friend 2k and he is having trouble paying you back despite also owning his own House and having a job that pays almost as well as yours. Would you simply forget about the 2k you borrowed him just because you have more money or simply give him more time to pay you back?

[Young Nan]

Well they have to have in excess of 3 million, I could be wrong but I think at some point Kevan contemplated paying off the crown's debt to the iron bank with Lannister money.  They'd have to have enough to make that payment plus enough of a cushion that it wouldn't be disastrous to them financially to do so. 

[Neds Secret]

22 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

It is possible that they could do that, but why would they? Why would they willingly write off a huge sum of money when they don't have to. They can afford to stall the payments but writing them off would be incredibly stupid.

The Crown should be able to pay its debts, they have badly mismanaged for a number of years. A competent Hand and Small Council should be able to reverse their current financial position in time and the Lannisters were willing to give them that time, their other creditors (Iron Bank & the Faith) were not.

 

Of course it is not. Not only do they have their mines, whatever reserves they have built up over thousands of years in control and Lannisport but they also collect taxes from the Lords of the richest kingdom in Westeros.

You seem to be puzzled about the situation so let me try and simplify it for you. You have 10k in the Bank, own your own House and have a well paying job. You borrow a friend 2k and he is having trouble paying you back despite also owning his own House and having a job that pays almost as well as yours. Would you simply forget about the 2k you borrowed him just because you have more money or simply give him more time to pay you back?

Exactly,which leads me to the question, which is the better option, paying 3 million of Lannister money to the iron bank to cover the iron thrones debt or not paying and risking the Iron Bank of Braavos deciding to back your enemies in order to recoup their money?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

Exactly,which leads me to the question, which is the better option, paying 3 million of Lannister money to the iron bank to cover the iron thrones debt or not paying and risking the Iron Bank of Braavos deciding to back your enemies in order to recoup their money?

1. You seem to be especially focused on the 3 million owed to the Lannisters. It is spent, the Crown is not holding it in a special room waiting to spend it or repay it to the Lannisters. It is not some kind of rainy day fund.

2. The Crown had the money to make the repayments. Had Tywin lived it would have been repaid from the Crown's own revenue stream.

3.Cersei decided that she wanted to build a new Navy. The money reserved to make those repayments was instead used to build some new ships. It was a political blunder by Cersei showing that ruling was not as easy as she arrogantly thought it was. 

4. Braavos backing her enemies was not an obvious consequence of stalling the payment. It actually is a pretty weak part of the plot. Originally there was supposed to be a 5 year gap and in that gap there was supposed to be multiple excuses and multiple meetings of Braavosi bankers and Cersei fobbing them which would have made them supporting Stannis more logical rather than getting upset over one missed payment. It was probably meant to be more obvious to outsiders how incompetent Cersei was at ruling.

 

5. Yes, if the Crown can not find other ways to make the loan repayments then the Lannisters can cover them (like Kevan mentions in ADWD) but the Crown should be able to cover its own incomes.

The War of the Five Kings becomes entirely meaningless if the Crown constantly runs at a loss and needs to be subsidized by Lannister money. It needs to fund itself

[Neds Secret]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

1. You seem to be especially focused on the 3 million owed to the Lannisters. It is spent, the Crown is not holding it in a special room waiting to spend it or repay it to the Lannisters. It is not some kind of rainy day fund.

2. The Crown had the money to make the repayments. Had Tywin lived it would have been repaid from the Crown's own revenue stream.

3.Cersei decided that she wanted to build a new Navy. The money reserved to make those repayments was instead used to build some new ships. It was a political blunder by Cersei showing that ruling was not as easy as she arrogantly thought it was. 

4. Braavos backing her enemies was not an obvious consequence of stalling the payment. It actually is a pretty weak part of the plot. Originally there was supposed to be a 5 year gap and in that gap there was supposed to be multiple excuses and multiple meetings of Braavosi bankers and Cersei fobbing them which would have made them supporting Stannis more logical rather than getting upset over one missed payment. It was probably meant to be more obvious to outsiders how incompetent Cersei was at ruling.

 

5. Yes, if the Crown can not find other ways to make the loan repayments then the Lannisters can cover them (like Kevan mentions in ADWD) but the Crown should be able to cover its own incomes.

The War of the Five Kings becomes entirely meaningless if the Crown constantly runs at a loss and needs to be subsidized by Lannister money. It needs to fund itself

The Iron Bank Of Braavos is now directly funding the Lannisters enemy claimants for the iron throne also lending legitimacy to Stannis claim as a result of the Lannisters not paying money owed to the IB.  This leads me to question whether the Lannister should have payed the debt to the IBoB and further leads me to question their ability to do so, as if they could afford to pay it why didn't they? I am not at all concerned with the money owed to the Lannisters except with regard to the possibility that they could not afford to lose it, because as posed in the OP I am really curious as to how rich the Lannisters actually are? Is Illyrio Mopatis truly more wealthy than they, or as I initially understood, are the Lannisters rich beyond the wildest dreams of even the extremely wealthy merchants of Planetos?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

The Iron Bank Of Braavos is now directly funding the Lannisters enemy claimants for the iron throne

Right. Unfortunately that was not an obvious consequence to Cersei at the time she told them to wait.

We the reader eventually got to know that, Cersei is not psychic.

And in reality that decision makes little sense. Cersei tells the Iron Bank that she will only resume payments as soon as Stannis is done (which at the time he looked pretty much finished) and they instead offer Stannis more money guaranteeing that the war will be prolonged and they will wait even longer to be repaid.

Worse still is Stannis gets beat then they will never see the money they lent him again and if Cersei finds out that they have been funding her enemies may refuse full stop to ever repay.

6 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

 

  This leads me to question whether the Lannister should have payed the debt to the IBoB

You are acting under the assumption that the Iron Bank funding Stannis was an obvious soloution at the time. It wasn't, certainly not for Cersei as we see her POV.

6 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

and further leads me to question their ability to do so, as if they could afford to pay it why didn't they?

How many times do you need to be told about Kevan commenting on this.

Unless a new source of coin could be found, or the Iron Bank persuaded to relent, he would have no choice but to pay the crown's debts with Lannister gold.

So the Lannisters have the money. The trouble is at the time Kevan is not aware of the Iron Bank offering to fund Stannis. How could he?

6 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

Is Illyrio Mopatis truly more wealthy than they, or as I initially understood, are the Lannisters rich beyond the wildest dreams of even the extremely wealthy merchants of Planetos?

We really don't know.

The Merchants will be extremely cash rich whereas much of the Lannisters wealth will not be liquid. The Lannisters may be overall richer but Mopatis may be able to raise more cash on shorter notice.