R+L=?? THE TRUE ANSWER TO THE OLDEST QUESTION

[Wheels]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If you had checked it you would had see that in the op it is said "CPJT means crackpot joke theory" the link is the thread's title on the sig.

I'm not following what you mean by this. CPJT? elaborate

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So what the author told as a fact isn't a fact? Really? We know both from the books and from the author himself that Rhaegar was killed and cremated and that Dany was born 9 months after the Sack. Now if you believe that you know mopre about the books than the author ok.

where in the books does it say R was cremated?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Wheels said:

I'm not following what you mean by this. CPJT? elaborate

where in the books does it say R was cremated?

She did elaborate, read the whole thing. From @JQC's post:

CPJT means crackpot joke theory"

[Wheels]

ahhh I see now that those are links thank you

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 minutes ago, Wheels said:

I'm not following what you mean by this. CPJT? elaborate

where in the books does it say R was cremated?

If you see the Arthur Dayne is alive thread you will know what CPJT mean. I already have explain it.

I don't recall. However in the books is clearly mentioned that Rhaella was pregnant and Dany was born on DS. Why by your logic they would protect Rhaegar's daughter who wouldn't be in the Targ line of succession and not his son who would be the King by the Targ law? If Rhaegar was alive why GRRM clearly said that he was cremated? Why GRRM clearly gave us Dany's almost exact birthdate?

[Wheels]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If you see the Arthur Dayne is alive thread you will know what CPJT mean. I already have explain it.

I don't recall. However in the books is clearly mentioned that Rhaella was pregnant and Dany was born on DS. Why by your logic they would protect Rhaegar's daughter who wouldn't be in the Targ line of succession and not his son who would be the King by the Targ law?

You don't recall because it's not in the books. and yea, from the POV of one character or another we are all lead to believe that Dany was born on DS. How many times in these books are characters lead to believe things that aren't actually true? many times. My logic is that Dany's Hair and her eyes clearly mark her as a Targaryan making purple eyed Ashara the only person in Westeros who could pass her off as her own baby without raising suspicion. Jon is a non-issue because he looks like a Stark so Ned can easily claim him as his bastard. Ashara takes D to Dragonstone to reunite her with her grandmother Rhaella, her uncle Viscerys, and the rest of the loyalists where she will obviously be the safest. Rhaella can't hack the last pregnancy and she dies with the baby. to protect her one step further they say she was Rhaella's child because why the hell would they want anybody to know Rhaegar had more children. Robert hated Rhaegar even 15 years after the trident and didn't give a shit about killing his children during the sack. this would make her "officialy recorded" birthday on Dragonstone about 8-9 months after the TOJ

I don't see what is so crackpot about this, its just as likely as the other theories out there.

as for "textual evidence" there's hardly any besides Ned's dreams which don't give us much of anything. this is purely speculation just like all the other theories about Ned's promises. I must have read A Game of Thrones at least 7-8 times since 2006 when i first picked it up and every time I do It becomes clearer to me that Ned only starts fretting about broken promises right after Robert goes off about assassinating Dany.

Again, Jon and Dany being twins IMHO ties together the whole story a lot better. It would make them the children of the union between Fire and Ice (R+L), separated at birth, sent to the opposite sides of the world, one is fighting fire and one is fighting ice. You honestly can't deny it makes for a much more poetic sequence and fits the narrative better than if Dany was the daughter of the mad king. We are told over and over that Targ's wedding brother and sister keep the bloodlines pure. If Dany and Jon do fall in love wouldn't it be far more fitting that they are actually brother and sister not aunt and nephew...?

You don't have to like it but you sure as hell aren't going to change my mind.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Wheels said:

 I don't accept any material that is not part of the books themselves as canon, regardless of what George has said in the past.

Pardon? Why should the word of the author be disregarded? You know, the guy who actually wrote the books? Over the years, he has commented on a lot of details that are not plot-significant, or confirmed that which were hinted at but not spelled black on white. When he gives information, it is valid. When he doesn't want to reveal something, he goes "keep reading", or "you will have to wait". He doesn't lie. 

Since you are new to the forums, you would do well to take a look at that section of the Citadel that I have linked you and read through some portions of his answers to see the way he responds.

4 hours ago, Wheels said:

as for "textual evidence" there's hardly any besides Ned's dreams which don't give us much of anything. this is purely speculation just like all the other theories about Ned's promises.

Sorry but this is rather handwaved. Things are written in a particular way for a reason, and I previously gave you the gist of parts that allow to infer what some of Ned's promises were about. Not all of them for sure, but to keep Jon's identity secret and to keep him safe are as clear as if spelled out.

4 hours ago, Wheels said:

I must have read A Game of Thrones at least 7-8 times since 2006 when i first picked it up and every time I do It becomes clearer to me that Ned only starts fretting about broken promises right after Robert goes off about assassinating Dany.

Wait a sec, that part about broken promises comes way later, in the Black Cells, or can you provide a quote to what you mean?

 

I'll take a look at your edited OP (original post) later.

[Wheels]

yea I did a massive edit it on it with lots of quotes. check it out

and in my defense I have been a long time reader of the forums. I only made an account to post this theory

(and lol i know what op means but thank you)

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Pardon? Why should the word of the author be disregarded? You know, the guy who actually wrote the books? Over the years, he has commented on a lot of details that are not plot-significant, or confirmed that which were hinted at but not spelled black on white. When he gives information, it is valid. When he doesn't want to reveal something, he goes "keep reading", or "you will have to wait". He doesn't lie. 

Since you are new to the forums, you would do well to take a look at that section of the Citadel that I have linked you and read through some portions of his answers to see the way .....

If your tells are well known, the only way to conceal your true agenda would be to change them, do the opposite, something different. 

[Ygrain]

 

48 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

If your tells are well known, the only way to conceal your true agenda would be to change them, do the opposite, something different. 

Excuse me but I don't follow your meaning here.

[Wheels]

yea me neither

[HexMachina]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Excuse me but I don't follow your meaning here.

I read that as "if what you have said was so well known, the only way to conceal your intent is to do something different." Though whether it was meant seriously or sarcastically I don't knkw

[Wheels]

is it because im black?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

Wow, I didn't realize that was such obscure language. A 'Tell' is a poker term that means a change in a player's behavior or demeanor that is claimed by some to give clues to that player's assessment of their hand. A player gains an advantage if they observe and understand the meaning of another player's tell, particularly if the tell is unconscious and reliable. Sometimes a player may fake a tell, hoping to induce their opponents to make poor judgments in response to the false tell. More often, people try to avoid giving out a tell, by maintaining a poker face regardless of how strong or weak their hand is. And if they have given tells, as others have pointed out, you must differentiate or give the game away.

'Tells' are typically small fragments of body language associated with particular habits and behaviors. They are often also associated with one person only.

Tells are triggered by emotions such as excitement, anxiety and anger.

They are often subconscious and thus are useful signals of what the person is really thinking.

They may be very visible actions, such as scratching and vocalizing, or may be fleeting micro-movements, such as twitches of facial muscles.

 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

28 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Excuse me but I don't follow your meaning here.

See above.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

27 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I read that as "if what you have said was so well known, the only way to conceal your intent is to do something different." Though whether it was meant seriously or sarcastically I don't knkw

Why sarcastic? This is common sense to me.

[Ygrain]

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Ned falls in love with Ashara at tourny at Harrenhal 281 AC
--> Ashara falls in love with Brandon
--> Ashara gets pregnant with Brandon’s Child and returns to Starfall

Basically agreed, and I think that this ties in with Ned's untypical bitterness when saying that "everything was always for Brandon", as well as with Barristan's statement that young girls always choose fire over mud. There is 

Spoiler

a very similar statement in Arianne's TWOW spoiler chapter, too.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

edit* reading through the Forum I realize that alot of people are very resistant to M=R so let me just list some of the many reasons I think that it is possible.

Even if GRRM never said that, the book states black on white that when Ned arrived on the scene of the duel, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream. Dany's HotU (House of the Undying) vision also shows the scene of Rhaegar's death.

Mance's background is known well since his childhood. He cannot be anyone else

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

-----> Mance and Qhorin Halfhand's backstories are both given to Jon by Qhorin himself who is secretly Arthur Dayne

Arthur cannot be alive. Out of the ten combatants at ToJ, only two lived to ride away (book info), further confirmed by GRRM that Ned and Howland were the only men to leave ToJ.

 

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

-----> the fact that ABel is very nearly BAel (the bard) who stole the daugher of Winterfell in the songs! Just like how Rhaegar was a bard that stole Lyanna...

- “What was he truly like?” The old man considered a moment. “Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded.”
          Barristan and Dany, about Rhaegar, ASOS page 111

The first quote indeed established a parallel between Bael the Bard story and R+L. The second... I doubt that it relates, it is too general.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

-----> The slowly beeting frozen heart in the House of the Undying that gives off purple light is another HUGE clue! seriously.

Might be, the sapphire theory is well known about the forums and it may tie in. The problem is, what secret does it point to? That the Undying are lying to Dany, or something else?

There has been a theory that the shadow of evening are corrupted weirwoods, or probably some weirwood equivalent, because the effect on Dany is similar to that on Bran. A lot of interesting territory here, that's for sure.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Lyanna has Rhaegars fraternal twins: a boy and a girl named Daenarys and Jon at the Tower of Joy. she dies

The already discussed timeline aside: there is nothing pointing towards the existence of the said twins, and next to nothing pointing towards Dany not being who she thinks she is. There are people who ascribe a huge relevance to the inconsistence between the description of Braavos and her memory of the lemon tree, but I prefer to go with an easier explanation (GRRM didn't have his description of Braavos ready at that point of his writing, and even so, trees still grow in the houses of the mighty in Braavos and arranging microclimate for lemon trees is not really difficult if you have money). If there was going to be a reveal towards Dany's new identity, there should have been an increasing steady flow of hints, at least on the level of RLJ. There isn't. I understand your idea of ice and fire twins separated at birth and it would indeed make for a thematically interesting story, but it doesn't seem to be the way that GRRM chose to go.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> He knows Dany will only be safe in Westeros with Ashara because the Dayne's often share the same features as the Targaryans (silver hair, purple eyes) Ashara has deep purple eyes

That indeed might work, but Dany is not with Ashara, and as far as her memories go, she never was. Besides, if Ashara was indeed to take care of R+L's child, the best way to keep the child safe would be to fake suicide (she cannot stay at Starfall because too many people would know that this new child isn't hers) and go to Lys because a lot of population there have Valyrian features. Then we'd have indeed a parallel to Jon being raised in secrecy.

Some people believe that Ashara indeed only faked her suicide and that she is Septa Lemore (the colour of her eyes is not mentioned). I don't subscribe to it but so far, it cannot be ruled out completely.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> the wet nurse Wylla in Ned's story is Ashara (The real Wylla nursed Edric Dayne and maybe even went to Winterfell for a short while with Jon and Ned after Ashara leaves Starfall. This would make Edric's claim that him and Jon were milk brother true.)

Here you're overcomplicating. There is no need for Wylla to go to Winterfell to be Jon's wetnurse, someone had to wetnurse him on the way from ToJ to Starfall. This ties in with the fact that Wylla claims to be Jon's mother, which suggests that she is part of the coverup for Jon's new identity (she and Ned tell the same story).

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Ashara leaves Starfall with baby Dany to meet up with the Targaryan loyalists at Dragonstone just before the mega storm happens

This is the part that makes least sense to me. Why travel with the child to a besieged island where she will be in danger? Why not keep her secret, just like Ned did with Jon? I mean, Darry was lucky to have escaped with the royal children, the Dragonstone garrison wanted to give them to the rebels. And, if Ashara was charged with keeping the child safe, how come that she didn't stay with her? And how come that Ned never, ever, tried to help his sister's other child? Never paid any thought to her?

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

Because she is Lyanna's daughter.

I have already asked you for the quote of Ned fretting about broken promises at this point, have you found it?

Besides, seeing your best friend order an assassination of a fourteen-year-old pregantn girl should be enough for anyone to be disconcerted, even without the said girl being your sister's daughter.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

Ned made at least two promises. First to claim Jon as his bastard. Second, to ensure that Dany was protected from Robert. Hence the trip to Dorne.

Actually, it is not clear if he promised to claim Jon, or if it was only the means to keep him safe that he devised himself (much like LF claims "Alayne" as his bastard daughter because bastards are aplenty and people don't inquire about them much). And, if Ned indeed swore to keep Dany safe from Robert, he didn't bother much about it, or why else did she and Viserys have to beg for living around the Free Cities? Not really something that you would expect from Ned, right?

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

Again, Jon and Dany being twins IMHO ties together the whole story a lot better. It would make them the children of the union between Fire and Ice (R+L), separated at birth, sent to the opposite sides of the world, one battling fire and the other ice.

Except, it doesn't seem that Jon is to battle for ice, if his dream about fighting ice zombies with a red sword is anything to go by. Besides, as children of Ice and Fire, they would rather be a union, a balance if you like. Something that might end the conflict instead of fuelling it.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

You honestly can't deny it makes for a much more poetic sequence and fits the narrative better than if Dany was the daughter of the mad king.

Poetry aside, there is a difference between a story that might be, and a story that GRRM is writing. Dany as the mad king's daughter is a reversal of the trope of a rightful heir of an unrightfully overthrown monarch. She doesn't know the full story yet, and there's going to be one hell of a moment when she finally learns.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

We are told over and over that Targaryans wed brother and sister to keep the bloodlines pure. If Dany and Jon do fall in love like so many of us want, wouldn't it be far more fitting that they are actually brother and sister not aunt and nephew...?

Careful about wishful thinking here. They might fall in love, and they might stage another Azor Ahai - Nissa Nissa scene. Or it ight go in a variety of ways.

Besides, Jon is Stark all and through in his morals. Sleeping with his sister might be totally unpalatable to him.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Dany and Viserys are told they grew up in Braavos but they really grew up in the house with the red door on the tropical island paradise/lemon tree land Lys. This is because Lys is full of people with old Valyrian blood that look like they do (silver hair, purple eyes) so its easy for them to blend into the population.

See above.

Besides, lemon do not require tropical climate (subtropical is their natural zone), and they can be grown in moderate climate, as well, provided that winters are not too harsh and there are made some arrangements for their wintering.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> When she is done nursing Daenarys, Ashara bounces out to Asshai and becomes Quathe, sends Dany dreams and visions, watches over her from afar, daughter she never had... (just like Mance is watching over Jon by visiting Winterfell as the bard Abel and probably visiting Lyanna’s Tomb)

Only that the first thirteen years of Dany's life, she hasn't been much help, was she. 

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Everyone except Qhorin Halfhand, Richard Lonmouth (Lem Lemoncloak?), the brothers in the quite isle and maaaaybe Ned think that Rhaegar Targaryan is dead

As pointed out above, Ned definitely thinks that Rhaegar is dead.

 

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Cersei fully descends into madness and pulls a mad queen, Left Hand Jaime is unable to stop her in time from lighting the wildfire caches like he did with Aery's.

Yep, this is what I think is going to happen

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Jaime fulfills the Valonqar prophecy and strangles Cersei in spite or just to spare her from the flames as kings landing is entirely engulfed

Possible, provided that he makes back from the Riverlands.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Jaime is reborn: the only one in the city left alive and un-burnt

I don't see this as very likely. He and Cersei are supposed to leave the world together, just as they came into it.

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

--> Dany (maybe she has visited Asshai by now) and Barriston (please don’t die) see this all go down and come to realize he must be the son of Aerys. (Barriston already suspects) Shit maybe he even gets a new magic sword hand

Being a son of Aerys doesn't make anyone unburnt, and I wholeheartedly hope that there is no magic prosthetics centre in Westeros.

 

 

On 18. 3. 2016 at 3:21 AM, Wheels said:

. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was . . . fond of flowers.”

WHO IS THEY? wasn't Howland the only other survivor? surely the other was Arthur Dayne.

Forgot about this one. There are virtually two possibilities:

1) muddy timeline - the fight didn't take place upon Ned's arrival but only after Lyanna's death, hence "they" = the Kingsguard.

2) wetnurse/midwife/servant/whoever else was present at ToJ to help with cooking/laundrying/tending to Lyanna and the baby etc. If you want a hot candidate, Wylla. She couldn't have been from Starfall, or must have been absent from there for at least 9 months, to be able to claim that Jon was her baby by Ned Stark.

[Ygrain]

42 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Wow, I didn't realize that was such obscure language. A 'Tell' is a poker term that means a change in a player's behavior or demeanor that is claimed by some to give clues to that player's assessment of their hand. A player gains an advantage if they observe and understand the meaning of another player's tell, particularly if the tell is unconscious and reliable. Sometimes a player may fake a tell, hoping to induce their opponents to make poor judgments in response to the false tell. More often, people try to avoid giving out a tell, by maintaining a poker face regardless of how strong or weak their hand is. And if they have given tells, as others have pointed out, you must differentiate or give the game away.

'Tells' are typically small fragments of body language associated with particular habits and behaviors. They are often also associated with one person only.

Tells are triggered by emotions such as excitement, anxiety and anger.

They are often subconscious and thus are useful signals of what the person is really thinking.

They may be very visible actions, such as scratching and vocalizing, or may be fleeting micro-movements, such as twitches of facial muscles.

 

Well, for the starters, I'm not a native speaker. I did grasp the meaning of "tell" even though I'm not familiar with poker terminology. However, I still miss the overall sense of your statement. Do you mean that GRRM is using an intentionally misleading tactics to answer people's questions? 

In a way, he does, such as the above-mentioned "the only two men who left ToJ", which doesn't mean that there were no women, babies etc., or the zillion times argued issue of the Targaryens being less able to defy the Faith and traidition, which doesn't mean that they weren't able to at all. However, I don't see the point of GRRM giving intentional misdirection (not to say outright blatant lies) if he doesn't want to reveal something, when all he need to say is "I won't tell you just now".

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

9 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, for the starters, I'm not a native speaker. I did grasp the meaning of "tell" even though I'm not familiar with poker terminology. However, I still miss the overall sense of your statement. Do you mean that GRRM is using an intentionally misleading tactics to answer people's questions? 

In a way, he does, such as the above-mentioned "the only two men who left ToJ", which doesn't mean that there were no women, babies etc., or the zillion times argued issue of the Targaryens being less able to defy the Faith and traidition, which doesn't mean that they weren't able to at all. However, I don't see the point of GRRM giving intentional misdirection (not to say outright blatant lies) if he doesn't want to reveal something, when all he need to say is "I won't tell you just now".

OK, very good for you. But you come off very rude using language like 'first of all'. If you don't know what I mean, I guess it too must be lost in translation.

[Ygrain]

Well, sorry, I certainly didn't mean to come off like that. Would you please care to elaborate what you meant?

[Wheels]

Honestly Ygrain, I think you've been on these forums too much and not in the books enough. Most of those arguments you make are convoluted jargon like microclimates for lemon trees and about irrelevant points like whether or not Ned knows about Rhaegar/Mance and the rest are pretty much without substance or quotes to back them so i won't bother going through them all. About Rhaegars death I will say this: Yes. He died. There is almost no doubt. But where was his body? his squire? his funeral? It happened on the Quiet Isle. The Brothers Burned Him. Rhaegar Died and Mance was Born. You don't think Rhallor would spit him back out? (he's kind of important) Another character that died on the Quiet Isle? The Hound - and don't tell me that you think Sandor is actually dead please. Another Character that died and was reborn? Catelyn/Stoneheart. Another? Gregor/Robert Strong. There's a theme here. Every time a character dies they come back differently. You say that GRRM said only two men survived the fight at the TOJ? (please show me where) It's true. Arthur Dayne Died with his fingers and the Halfhand was born. I am not moved by your arguments. And can you please explain to me where Mance's backstory is given other than from Qhorin?

Here's what you were looking for:

On 2016-03-18 at 7:21 PM, Wheels said:

as for "textual evidence" there's hardly any besides Ned's chapters which don't give us much of anything. This is purely speculation just like all the other theories about Ned's promises. Every time I read AGOT It becomes clearer to me that Ned only starts fretting about promises right after his fight with Robert and the small council over killing Daenarys. Immediately afterwards Ned is swept up by Littlefinger and distracted by the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder. Then he gets stabbed in the leg and passes out. Now why would he all of a sudden dream "an old dream" about the Tower of Joy? What triggered this old Dream? The only reason can be that he feels guilty because he promised to protect Daenarys and Daenarys is Lyanna's daughter.

- "He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did. Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion . . ."

- “Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.”Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed. “The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it . . . not too late . . . talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be . . . better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.” “They will, my friend,” Ned said. “They will.”

- "Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenerys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once.” “Alas,” said Varys. “At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown.

- When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares.

 

If you really wanna believe the version of events where Dany is the daughter of a psychopath and Jon kills her and Jaime dies without ever regaining his honor and Tyrion never reconciles everybody and Ashara and Arthur and Rhaegar are never heard from again then fine. go ahead. but I think there's A LOT more people who would like all our favorite Targaryans to actually find each other and soar on their Dragons off into Destiny together.