R+L=?? THE TRUE ANSWER TO THE OLDEST QUESTION

[Wheels]

This theory ties together some of the biggest unanswered questions in the series such as: The true parentage of Jon Snow, Ned’s promise to Lyanna, Ashara Dayne, the events at the Tower of Joy, The events at the Tourney of Harenhall, the identities of the three heads of the dragon, Cersei’s Valonqar and even the true fate of Rhaegar.

Edit* I forgot to thank all of the very smart people who's theories i have read and watched that have helped me create this one. Many of these ideas are not mine and I have read them somewhere on this forum or seen them on youtube and I just wanted to thank the amazing community for that. I would still be in the dark in a lot of areas if not for you guys. However I haven't seen any theories that paint this specific picture. I hope I can provoke some interesting thoughts.

I would especially like to thank https://www.blogger.com/profile/12529419358072539351 for the awesome R=M theory!

*SPOILERS*

--> Ned falls in love with Ashara at tourny at Harrenhal 281 AC (explains why he gets mad at Robert for bringing up Wylla [keep reading])
--> Ashara falls in love with Brandon
--> Ashara gets pregnant with Brandon’s Child and returns to Starfall

 

edit* reading through the Forum I realize that alot of people are very resistant to M=R so let me just list some of the many reasons I think that it is possible.

 

--> Fast-forward to the battle of the Trident where Rhaegar creates a glamour using the scattered rubies on his breastplate that allow him to escape unnoticed. Maybe he even dies for real....... He is washed down river possibly with the help of his missing squire Richard Lonmouth (Lonmouth and Rhaegars body are both missing after the battle) to the quiet isle (it's at the mouth of the Trident). The Brothers realize who he is and give him a traditional Targaryan burial AKA a pyre (this works alongside the notion that he was cremated like GRRM said in an interview.) He is born again out of the flames. That or he never completely died and is nursed back to health by the brothers before leaving for the wall as Mance Rayder.

Yes, GRRM has said that Rhaegar was cremated but as this is never mentioned in the books it is not canon yet.

-----> Mance and Qhorin Halfhand's backstories are both given to Jon by Qhorin himself who is secretly Arthur Dayne

- "Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together."

- "Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand."

- "They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star."

- "I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right." - Jaime

- "The Halfhand could have killed me as easy as you swat a bug." - Jon

When Jon and Qhorin first meet:

-The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed. “You are Jon Snow. You have your father’s look.”
(Jon V, ACoK)

-----> Qhorin is described as having grey hair and eyes. There are no descriptions of Arthur's hair or eyes in the story at all. However we know that Edric Dayne has blue eyes and Gerold Dayne has silver streaked with black both of which could turn grey with age.

-----> Given what we know about Wargs, Skin changers, Red Priests bringing people back to life, faceless men, Others raising the dead and dragon riders, is it really hard to believe that Rhaegar, the last dragon, the Prince who was born in the flames of Summerhall where the largest number of Targaryaens ever died and no less than 3 kings burned, could possibly posses supernatural abilities like some of our other favorite characters do? In fact the only thing that doesn't connect Rhaegar to Mance is his described facial appearance and his "Backstory" which is given to us by Qhorin who is Arthur Dayne - his best friend. For me it's not hard to believe that a character of such famed intellect and prowess knew all kinds of things about the Higher Mysteries and was exceptionally skilled in them. It may have been easy for Rhaegar/Mance to change his appearance. The singing, the red and black cloak, the skill at arms... the list of similarities is long.

-----> The circumstances of Rhaegars birth in which Egg and his two heirs and and the whole household of Targaryan cousins and relatives burned is suspicious The fact that we know so little about the event itself, leads me to believe that there was some seriously heavy heavy blood magic involved. The burning of Kings Blood is a constantly repeating topic in our story with but we never really get a very big taste of it besides that one time when the Dragons hatched. my point is that the shear volume of Kings Blood burned at Summerhall must have played a role in the Destiny of Rhaegar. He Is one of the Princes TWP. Things didn't go according to plan for him but isn't that every characters story so far besides good old King Robert?

-----> It sounds as if Rhaegar knew his purpose from a very young age. Possibly even from his birth in the flames he had a vision of the long night and the return of the dragons. It would explain his melancholy disposition after he realized that he saw his own destiny as a newborn and then discovered his vision in a book about the long night as a child.

- "As a boy he was bookish to a fault."

- "It seems I must be a warrior".

-----> Maester Aemon tells Sam about how he discussed the prophecy of the prince who was promised with Rhaegar.

-----> the fact that ABel is very nearly BAel (the bard) who stole the daugher of Winterfell in the songs! Just like how Rhaegar was a bard that stole Lyanna...

- “What was he truly like?” The old man considered a moment. “Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded.”
          Barristan and Dany, about Rhaegar, ASOS page 111

-----> The slowly beeting frozen heart in the House of the Undying that gives off purple light is another HUGE clue! seriously.

- “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don’t become King- beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow.”
(Jon X, ASoS)

Here is a list of all 25 times when sapphires were mentioned and a secret was being withheld.

----> Prince Rhaegar was tall and handsome, having dark indigo eyes and the silver hair of the Targaryens, worn long.

Yes Mance's face is different than Rhaegars. If only there were some way that people could alter their faces in our story... hmmmm...... Mance is describe as middling height which is a very vague term. if you are 5ft tall someone who is 6ft is tall. if you are 6 ft, someone who is 6 ft could be described as middling height. Book Jon is fairly tall himself. Mance could be tall to some, but only middling height from Jon's POV.

- I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance.” He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp... and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels.”
ASOS, Jon I

-----> Note that he refers to Robert by his first name instead of "The King" or "King Robert" as if he knew him...

-----> how could he know all the songs of the south if he was raised on the wall his whole life?

-The singer rose to his feet. “I’m Mance Rayder,” he said as he put aside the lute. “And you are Ned Stark’s bastard, the Snow of Winterfell.”
Stunned, Jon stood speechless for a moment, before he recovered enough to say, “How... how could you know...”
(Jon I, ASoS)

- "Shadows are friends to men in black," he said. (Rhaegar wore black armor at the trident)
Jon saw the sense of that. It would be pleasant to ride in the light for a time, to let the bright mountain sun soak through their cloaks and chase the chill from their bones, but they dared not. Where there were three watchers there might be others, waiting to sound the alarm.
Stonesnake curled up under his ragged fur cloak and was asleep almost at once. Jon shared his salt beef with Ghost while Ebben and Squire Dalbridge fed the horses. Qhorin Halfhand sat with his back to a rock, honing the edge of his longsword with long slow strokes. Jon watched the ranger for a few moments, then summoned his courage and went to him. "My lord," he said, "you never asked me how it went. With the girl."
"I am no lord, Jon Snow." Qhorin slid the stone smoothly along the steel with his two-fingered hand.
"She told me Mance would take me, if I ran with her."
"She told you true."
"She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . . "
" . . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well."
"You knew him?"
"We all knew him." His voice was sad.
They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes. "Why did he desert?"
"For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it." Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. "He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that's true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."
"Was he a good ranger?"
"He was the best of us," said the Halfhand, "and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey."
"No more than me," said Jon quietly.
 (Jon VII, ACoK)

- “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

- Even when Ghost's teeth closed savagely around the ranger's calf, somehow Qhorin kept his feet. But in that instant, as he twisted, the opening was there. Jon planted and pivoted. The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon's slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man's throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.
He knew, he thought numbly. He knew what they would ask of me.

Perhaps this was always Ser Arthur’s purpose. It would be a bittersweet irony if Qhorin/Arthur, of the Kingsguard and Night’s Watch, died defending the Targaryen prince Jon Snow, as he was first thought to have done at the Tower of Joy. At least he died with steel in his hand, serving and protecting his king’s son.

- “I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was . . . fond of flowers.”

WHO IS THEY? wasn't Howland the only other survivor? surely the other was Arthur Dayne.

-----> Literally the only thing that doesn't relate Mance to Rhaegar is his "backstory" from Qhorin and his facial features. Please inform me if you find any!

-----> So Mad Queen Cersei is destroying everything, Jon is dead for now, Dany is stuck in the wilderness and Jaime is about to get Stone Hearted in the Riverlands. Wouldn't it work out well that the most awesome character we thought we'd never get to see was actually under our nose this entire time?

----->So anyway there's the evidence - decide for yourselves----> If R=M isn't true it doesn't change our story so far at all

Going forward:

 

--> Lyanna has Rhaegars fraternal twins: a boy and a girl named Daenarys and Jon at the Tower of Joy. she dies
--> During the battle of 7v3 Arthur Dayne get's his four fingers cut off by Howland Reed saving Ned and ending the fight. The surviving 3 reconcile and Arthur gives Ned the sword Dawn to return to Starfall so he can fake his own death and Join the watch as Qhorin Halfhand. As Rhaegars best friend he would have known much about the long night and the doom facing the realm so it makes sense that he would want to continue that fight in the North knowing there was nothing left for him in the south.

--> Ned can claim Jon as his bastard (because he looks like a Stark)

--> Ned knows that he can't just take Daenarys back to Dragonstone the way he came it would be too suspicious especially with her purple eyes and silver hair.

--> Ned takes Dany to Starfall after the TOJ - approx. 1 month after sack of KL - 7-8 months until storm on Dragonstone

--> He knows the safest place in Westeros for Dany is with Ashara because Ashara has deep purple eyes like Dany

--> He also knows Ashara is pregnant with Brandon's child and is nursing

--> the wet nurse Wylla in Ned's cover story reminds him of Ashara. (Ned had his heart broken by Ashara [Lost loves are another massive recurrence in GRRM writing]) (Wylla probably was a real wet nurse at starfall who nursed Jon there while Ashara nursed Dany. This would make Edric Daynes comments about them being milk brothers true)
--> Ashara fakes her suicide. (dead lover[Brandon], dead brother[Arthur], Her and Brandon’s possibly dead stillborn baby - 2-3 months after sack - 6-7 months until storm

Just as a fun aside i would like to quickly discuss the possibility that Podrick Payne might actually be Brandon and Ashara's Bastard. Let me start by saying that Payne is only one letter away from Dayne... Secondly he seems to know a lot of Dornish heraldry if you remember the scene when Tyrion is greeting the Martells. However when asked about his own house...

- “Are purple, gold, and white the colors of House Payne, Podrick?” she asked him politely. “No. I mean, yes.” He blushed. “The colors. Our arms are purple and white chequy, my lady. With gold coins. In the checks. Purple and white. Both.” He studied her feet

He obviously stumbles there. Furthermore, I would like to draw the similarity between the Story of Dunc and Egg and Brienne and Pod. Firstly, they meet each other in almost exactly the same way. Then Egg turns out to be a few years older than he looks - and as we know well he is not who he first appears to be at all. The same could be true of Podrick. Described as 11 or 12 by Brienne, he could easily look younger than his years and be hiding some secret about his true identity. Conveniently, all the people that could back Pod's life story are dead and the only Payne around is a mute. food for thought when you are re-reading

--> Ashara is making the journey with baby Dany to meet up with the Targaryan loyalists at Dragonstone where they agreed she would be the safest. - 4-5 months after sack - 4-5 months until storm

--> Here is the greyest area. Lets say the war started halfway through 282 and lasted "close to a year"-wiki. So the sack happened halfway through 283 approx. It isn't until 284 that Stannis starts building ships so there is the possibility of a big gap in time where the narrow sea is empty. Even if by chance Ashara was stopped she could say the baby was hers and she was traveling to Pentos or Braavos.

Here are events of the Rebellion according to the wiki:

282-283 AC
Robert's Rebellion: Rhaegar Targaryen abducts Lyanna Stark. Lyanna's brother Brandon and father Rickard demand that Aerys discipline his son, but instead the Mad King kills them both. Aerys demands the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark from their guardian, Jon Arryn. Instead, Houses Arryn, Stark, and Baratheon raise the standard of rebellion. Robert claims the throne through his descent from his great-grandfather, Aegon V and thus Robert's Rebellion, also called the War of the Usurper, begins. Hoster Tully agrees to join the rebellion as well. The Tyrells remain loyal to the king and besiege Robert's castle of Storm's End, held by his brother Stannis. The Hand of the King, Jon Connington, is defeated in the Battle of the Bells and is sent into exile in the Free Cities. The rebel army defeats the royalists at the Battle of the Trident. Prince Rhaegar is killed. The Lannisters apparently march to the aid of King Aerys, but instead turn against him and sack the city. King Aerys is killed by Jaime Lannister. Princess Elia Martell and her children, Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen, are brutally murdered by Lannister bannermen, causing a rift between Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. Ned Stark and Howland Reed defeat the Kingsguard guarding the Tower of Joy holding Lyanna prisoner, only to find her dying. Robert Baratheon is crowned King of the Seven Kingdoms. With the war at an end, Eddard Stark will return home to Winterfell with his bastard son, Jon Snow.

284 AC
Aftermath of Robert's Rebellion: At the command of his brother and new King, Stannis Baratheon builds a new fleet to assault Dragonstone, the last Targaryen holdfast left after the Rebellion. Dowager Queen Rhaella Targaryen dies in childbirth, giving birth to Princess Daenerys Targaryen during a summer storm. With the garrison of Dragonstone prepared to surrender, loyal Targaryen retainers spirit away Rhaella and Aerys' two youngest children, Prince Viserys and Princess Daenerys, to safety of the Free Citiy of Braavos.

-->Ned would have known the Targaryan fleet was gone after being in kings landing so he knows Ashara should be able to get to DS without running into Rebels.

--> Rhaella dies in childbirth with her last baby and Dany is swapped to protect the knowledge that Rhaegar had more children

I realize that George did an interview in 1999 stating that Dany was 8-9 months younger than Jon but let me remind you NON BOOK MATERIAL IS SIMPLY NOT CANON. All the information on Dany we are given in the books is from Dany's perspective or one of the other POV characters close to her. As far as she knows, she is 13. George could be giving us information based on the POV information we have in the books.... he is very clever like that.

From the POV of one character or another we are all lead to believe that Dany was born on Dragonstone. How many times in these books are characters lead to believe things that aren't actually true? many times. My logic is that Dany's Hair and her eyes clearly mark her as a Targaryan making purple eyed Ashara the only person in Westeros who could pass her off as her own baby without raising suspicion. Ashara takes Dany to Dragonstone to reunite her with her grandmother Rhaella, her uncle Viscerys, and the rest of the loyalists where she will obviously be the safest. Rhaella's last pregnancy fails and she dies with the baby. To protect her one step further the loyalists say Dany is Rhaella's child because why the hell would they want anybody to know Rhaegar had more children? Robert hated Rhaegar even 15 years after the trident and didn't give a shit about killing his children during the sack. If he knew Dany was Rhaegars there's a good chance he would have doubled the effort to kill her right from the start. This baby swap would make her "officially recorded" birthday on Dragonstone about 8-9 months after the TOJ

As for "textual evidence" I am not going to recite the large pile of evidence for R+L=J because i consider that Canon. I am only putting forward the clues from Ned's chapters in AGOT that hint at R+L=J+D. Every time I read AGOT It becomes clearer to me that Ned starts fretting about promises pretty much right after the fight with Robert and the small council over killing Daenarys. Immediately afterwards Ned is getting ready to leave but he is swept up by Littlefinger and distracted by the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder.

- "He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did. Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion . . ."

- "He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them." his thoughts while inspecting Roberts bastard daughter at the brothel.

Then he gets stabbed in the leg by Jaime's posse and passes out. Now why would he all of a sudden dream "an old dream" about the Tower of Joy? What triggered this old Dream? You could say it was Roberts daughter reminding him of Jon but given that the big emotional argument about killing Daenarys just happened it's reasonable to say that it was the main cause.

- “Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.”Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed. “The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it . . . not too late . . . talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be . . . better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.” “They will, my friend,” Ned said. “They will.”

----> Obviously Lyanna is still on his mind for some reason. Then Dany is mentioned literally right after the promise is. Sounds like a hint to me.

- "Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenerys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once.” “Alas,” said Varys. “At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown."

----> ^this is right before he confronts Cersei in the throne room.

- When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares.

----> The next time we see Ned here he's in the black cells dreaming of broken promises. But why broken promises? Jon is safely at the wall and he raised Jon in his own household as one of his children. Broken Promises to Cat? Ned doesn't even know what his fate is yet. But something is hurting him enough to give him nightmares of blood and broken promises and its not the fact he didn't eat the boar.

It has to be the thought of Daenarys that brings back all these nearly forgotten feelings about broken promises and blood and the tower of Joy. Ned is a prisoner and just found out the assassination can't be stopped.

Ned made at least two promises to Lyanna. First to raise Jon as his bastard . Second, to ensure that Dany was protected from Robert and returned to the other Targaryans. Hence the trip to Dorne.

Again, Jon and Dany being twins IMHO ties together the whole story a lot better. It would make them the children of the union between Fire and Ice (R+L), separated at birth, sent to the opposite sides of the world, one battling fire and the other ice. You honestly can't deny it makes for a much more poetic sequence and fits the narrative better than if Dany was the daughter of the mad king. We are told over and over that Targaryans wed brother and sister to keep the bloodlines pure. If Dany and Jon do fall in love like so many of us want, wouldn't it be far more fitting that they are actually brother and sister not aunt and nephew...?

--> Maybe Viserys Knows Dany is Rhaegars but i think its more likely he is fooled
--> Dany and Viserys are told they grew up in Braavos but they really grew up in the house with the red door on the tropical island paradise/lemon tree land Lys. This is because Lys is full of people with old Valyrian blood that look like they do (silver hair, purple eyes) so its easy for them to blend into the population.
--> When she is done nursing Daenarys, Ashara bounces out to Asshai and becomes Quathe, sends Dany dreams and visions, watches over her from afar, daughter she never had... (just like Mance is watching over Jon by visiting Winterfell as the bard Abel and probably visiting Lyanna’s Tomb)
--> Everyone except Qhorin Halfhand, Richard Lonmouth (Lem Lemoncloak?), the brothers in the quite isle think that Rhaegar Targaryan is dead.
--> Mance deserts the Watch and departs to the north so he can learn everything he can before the long night falls.
--> Qhorin is visiting Mance on his distant rangings (they could both even have visited blood raven who is a Targaryan loyalist)
--> Mance spends his time banding together the Wildlings all the while searching for the horn of Joramun that he believes has the power to wake the giants from the earth AKA a cataclysmic event like the breaking of the arm of Dorne or the Doom of Valeria. An event that is capable of stopping the Others...

                                          -->Fast forward to Winds Of Wwinter, Dream Of Spring

--> Jon is resurrected and reborn as his loyal nights watchmen weep over his pyre (or Shereen is burned [or something more awesome and less horrifying happens])
--> Tommen and Myrcella finally die somehow
--> Dany or the golden company or both have Kings landing surrounded
--> Cersei fully descends into madness and pulls a mad queen, Left Hand Jaime is unable to stop her in time from lighting the wildfire caches like he did with Aery's.
--> Jaime fulfills the Valonqar prophecy and strangles Cersei in spite or just to spare her from the flames as kings landing is entirely engulfed
--> Jaime is reborn: the only one in the city left alive and un-burnt
--> Dany (maybe she has visited Asshai by now) and Barriston (please don’t die) see this all go down and come to realize he must be the son of Aerys. (Barriston already suspects) Shit maybe he even gets a new magic sword hand

-There is actually quite alot of evidence that Jaime and Cersei are The Mad Kings bastards. Firstly, Tywin and the Aery's were BFF until right before J+C were born when they had a big falling out (when a woman comes between 2 bros there is only one outcome). Joanna was also dismissed from the queens service right at this time. Aery's also made jokes about taking his royal liberties with Joanna right in front of the whole court (Barriston remembers this). The twincest, Cersei being mad, Jeoffrey being mad, Cersei's obsession with wildfire, Cersei getting aroused by the burning of the Hands tower, Jaime's dream about his mother, His conversation with his aunt Genna, heck even Oathkeeper was described as having red and black ripples that the smith couldn't get out. It would be fitting that Tywin's only true son was Tyrion. Jon even remarks about Jaime at Winterfell when comparing him to Robert:

- "This is what a king should look like".

He fits the mold pretty well.

--> As for Rhaegar/Mance he was literally Born in a fire at summerhall. There’s no recorded evidence of what happened other than a few small hints but I like to imagine Ser Duncan the Tall in the ultimate act of valor sprinting and carrying Rhaella and newborn Rhaegar through the inferno to safety and somehow mother and son are protected by the blood magic but Dunc is so badly burned that he dies. Crying Baby Rhaegar, literally born of smoke and salt.

There you go... Rhaegar, Jaime, Jon and Daenarys. Dany and Jon are twins, Jaime is actually the son of the mad king and Rhaegar is still alive to lead them to face the long night after spending his whole life preparing for it. All Princes or princesses that were promised born of smoke and salt (fire and tears). Every fire birth or rebirth also included the burning of Kings Blood: Egg and his sons at Summerhall, Drogo in the Dothraki sea, Cersei at Kings Landing, and hopefully not - but likely Shereen at The Wall. Each birth the characters go through, they have a profound change in demeanor afterwards. Dany from frightened girl to fearless queen. Rhaegar becomes Mance. What if we even get Rhaegar chapters?? We can only speculate the changes Jaime and Jon will go through. It’s also worth mentioning that each character directly or indirectly kills the person they love just like the hero Azor Ahai. Jon chooses duty and honor over Ygritte, Rhaegar kills Lyanna with his seed, Jaime strangles Cersei and Dany smothers Drogo. Rhaegar is clearly the Black Dragon so he would ride Drogon, Jaime is the Gold Dragon, he has green eyes and is half Lannister, the most powerful family in the south so he rides Rhaegal, Jon is the Ice Dragon, half Stark, the most powerful family in the north, so it would only be fitting for him to ride the white one Viserion. Dany is the Mother of Dragons and really not the "riding into battle slaying hordes of undead ice zombies" kind of character. (if R=M is not true then sure... i guess Dany can ride Drogon) How all of this might play out? who the hell knows.

---------->Don't forget Jon Arryn was old enough to have been around when Tywin and Aerys had their falling out. His last words were “The seed is strong.”

[Sir Matthis Light]

Man its sad.....You had me with the first two, then lost me

[Wheels]

Yea I agree all those people dying and being burned is sad...

Yea i get it. Everyone hates the Rhaegar is alive theory. If you kept reading you would see I mention that it can be removed and is irrelevant to the rest of the theories.

[Wheels]

Face it everyone... If Jon and Dany are twins it makes complete sense that they would be on opposite sides of the world battling fire and ice... Also, you all need to cut out all the BS that Jon is Brandon's son or Arthur Dayne's son, or Ashara's son... it would ruin the story. If there's one thing we know about GRRM It's that he likes writing about TARGARYANS

[princess_snow]

and how do you figure Jon and Dany are twins ?

[Wheels]

They are fraternal twins

[princess_snow]

1 hour ago, Wheels said:

They are fraternal twins

Grrm stated Dany was born around 9 months after Jon.

[Wheels]

yea but the loyalists could easily have lied about her age as she grew up just like Sansa/Alayne lies about being a different age while in hiding

[kissdbyfire]

No. Just no. Rhaegar isn't Mance. Dany and Jon are not fraternal twins. And your last argument, that loyalists lied about her age doesn't work. Martin said Dany is 9 months younger, end of story. While Martin may misdirect readers with unreliable narrators and drop subtle clues and hints in the books, he wouldn't lie in an interview/Q&A, no way. 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

--> Ned falls in love with Ashara at tourny at Harrenhal 281 AC

Evidence?
Not Meera's story. That just says that Ned was shy, not that he liked Ashara. Nor does it say that Ned wanted to dance with her (or she with him), merely that Brandon asked her to dance with Ned (on Ned's behalf does not require Ned's knowledge, blessing or desire).
Not Edric Dayne's story, since your own theory has Ashara choosing Brandon.
Not Cersei's guesses - Ashara is only one of multiple possibilities she throws at Ned.
Not Ned shutting down Catelyn's questions - Ned is quite explicit that that is about Jon's mother, not Ashara.

And now explain why Ned never thinks of Ashara, his supposed beloved?

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

--> Ashara falls in love with Brandon
--> Ashara gets pregnant with Brandon’s Child and returns to Starfall

--> fast-forward to the battle of the Trident where Rhaegar creates a glamour using the scattered rubies on his breastplate

Evidence Rahegar has this capability?
Evidence it works with scattered small stones that are not even in his possession any more, rather than one large stone such as Mel and maybe Bloodraven/Plumm use?

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

that allow him to escape unnoticed. Maybe he even dies for real and is brought back....... He is washed down river (never a mention of his body after the battle)

Rhaegar was cremated.

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

to the quiet isle where he is nursed back to health by the brothers before leaving for the wall as Mance Rayder
 

edit* reading through threads I realize that alot of people are very resistant to M=R so let me just list some of the many reasons I think that it is possible.

Because GRRM said his body was cremated...

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

----->He never got stabbed or beheaded, ripped apart or burned. In fact no mention is ever made of his body at all other than his breastplate getting knocked in. We are reminded about the rubies frequently throughout the books...

-----> Mance's backstory is given to Jon by Qhorin Halfhand who is secretly Arthur Dayne

--> Lyanna has Rhaegars twins: a boy and a girl named Daenarys and Jon at the Tower of Joy. she dies

Jon was born ... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts before Dany.

No, characters don't lie about that. GRRM told us this. Everything in every place points to it. Diverse characters from multiple places and multiple sides reference her birth. And there is no evidence that contradicts it either.

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

--> During the battle of 7v3 Arthur Dayne get's his two fingers cut off by Howland Reed ending the fight. They reconcile and he gives Ned the sword Dawn to return to Starfall so he can fake his own death and Join the watch as Qhorin Halfhand all so he can continue Rhaegar's work in the war against the Great Other. (his bones were never returned with the sword)

Evidence?

Arthur Dayne giving away Dawn? No.
Dayne had targ-colouring, Quorin had grey hair (which implies darker originally - light targ hair would whiten when it greys, not darken) and grey eyes.
There's just no clues...

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

--> He knows Dany will only be safe in Westeros with Ashara because the Dayne's share the same features as the Targaryans (silver hair, purple eyes) and he knows Ashara is pregnant and nursing

Ashara had dark hair.

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

--> Ashara fakes her suicide for many good reasons (dead lover[Brandon], faked dead brother[Arthur], Her and Brandon’s possibly dead stillborn baby [although it could be Edric/Ned Dayne or Pod?],

Edric is several years too young.
Pod is a Payne, a westerlands family and also much too young, born some 3-4 years after the war ended. You ser seem to have enjoyed the show too much!

7 hours ago, Wheels said:

--->she is the only one who can protect and nurse baby Daenerys)
--> the wet nurse Wylla is Ashara

Ashara interacted with both Brandon and Ned at Harrenhal, a big event where the Stark siblings were there without their father. It is certain that senior Stark retainers would have been paying close attention to her and would recognise her if she were Wylla.
It also makes no sense that Ashara goes to Winterfell nursing Jon if she was Brandon's lover.

Wylla is categorically not Ashara.

 

[Wheels]

And just where does grrm say rhaegar was cremated? And where does he say Dany is older than Jon?  He may have say these things irl but it's not in the books. The only evidence I can find of these claims is from people on this forum. Last time I checked this forum isn't canon.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

How could Jaime be a secret Targ? He is Cercei's twin brother. Are you suggesting Tywin and Aerys both had sex with Joanna, or that Cercei is actually also a Targ? Where are the hints? All that I can find is that Tyrion may be a product of Aerys and Joanna, but nothing about the twins.

About Mance == Rhaegar. from the WIKI, their descriptions:

Mance is of middling height, long legged and lean, broad in the chest and shoulders, and sharp-faced with brown eyes and long brown hair gone mostly to gray

There are to many differences, height, color hair, color eyes.

Prince Rhaegar was tall and handsome, having dark indigo eyes and the silver hair of the Targaryens, worn long.

Also, all the hoops and jumps and persons becoming someone else, I just do not see the evidence. please tell me where you see that Jon and Daenerys are twins? Where are the hints that Wylla = Ashara = Quaithe?
you can shout out all you want, but there is absolutely nothing in the books that support these theories, if so, please point me to them, so I can have another thought about it.

I'm sorry, there's just too little evidence for a lot of things you are writing here, time to get the tinfoil........

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Wheels said:

And just where does grrm say rhaegar was cremated? And where does he say Dany is older than Jon?  He may have say these things irl but it's not in the books. The only evidence I can find of these claims is from people on this forum. Last time I checked this forum isn't canon.

The link Corbon provided upthread: 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

Rhaegar was cremated

 

[kissdbyfire]

And no, Dany is younger than Jon, by 8 - 9 months.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

"All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts."

ETA: Those questions Martin answers, he answers truthfully. So, whatever is not 'in the books' but was answered in interviews/e-mails/Q&A is canon. 

[Wheels]

Dany being swapped in for rhaellas stillborn would account for the difference in age

[Wheels]

And rhaegsr being cremated is not in the books. Grrm would probably say the arcitypical targaryan burial just for the sake of protecting the books biggest secret

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Dany being swapped in for rhaellas stillborn would account for the difference in age

Please, elaborate. 

7 minutes ago, Wheels said:

And rhaegsr being cremated is not in the books. Grrm would probably say the arcitypical targaryan burial just for the sake of protecting the books biggest secret

No, he would not. When he doesn't want to give something away b/c it's too close to a secret, or mystery, or future plot point, he simply says things like "keep reading". He has never answered any of these questions with a lie. Not once in 20 years. It probably won't matter to you, b/c you seem determined to disregard not only all the textual evidence, but also what the author himself says. And b/c of that, I've got nothing further to add, really. 

[Wheels]

Haha You mad bro?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

You appear determined to ignore all the facts presented to you, including those stated by the author himself, who I would assume knows what happened before the era of the books better than we do. But, here goes nothing:

".... could possibly posses supernatural abilities like some of our other favorite characters do? Glamours being one of the least of those powers..."

This completely flies in the face of everything canon about glamour or skinchanging. It has been made very clear by several characters that glamors are one of the most difficult skills to master. J'aqen says plainly that it is only possible once one learns the way when he talks to Arya. Her training to become a faceless man is a long arduous process. Even Melisandre can have trouble with it, as she stated that maintaining the glamour when they burned Rattleshirt nearly set her on fire herself.

Rhaegar simply never had time nor a teacher to learn it. We have seen no one yet who did not have to go through lots of training before they could skinchange or glamour on that level. Also, given Robert's determination to see Rhaegar pay, I cannot see him slamming him in the chest with his hammer and then wandering off to find another opponent without being certain he was well and truly dead.

Despite George's love of twists and turns, Occam's Razor still applies in many situations in these books. And to paraphrase Tom Hanks, if it were that easy, everyone would do it.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Wheels said:

Haha You mad bro?

First, I'm not your "bro".

Second, no, not mad at all. Why should I be mad? B/c you want to waste your time on a completely unfounded and rather silly set of crackpot theories? No, I just don't want to waste my time on it as well, that's all. But go right ahead, and have fun!