Catelyn, Walder, Maester Brenett and Myrish llooking glasses.

[Modesty Lannister]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

In this case it probably is a technicality imo, since you admitted that salt is used in many dishes, and would be present and used during the feast anyway. Only way to guarantee no salt was given to Robb and his people is to serve non-salted dishes and not to have any salt at any table during the feast. If the salt is eaten several hours later, it's still eaten and guest right stands until they're given a parting gift.

If the Freys were sure they did not offend the gods by keeping salt away, they'd be halooing it anywhere they'd get accused of guest breaking. Instead they make up a lie of Robb turning into a wolf and attacking them first. I've seen the same arguments made about Walder using 'mayhaps' and how it applied to the crossing game for the RW.

Furthermore, magical forces resurrected Cat to avenge them, with multiple symbolic references to the greek Furies (underworld revenge spirits), LS as a ruler of the underworld, and both Brienne's as well as Jaime's RL chapters full of references to Dante's Inferno and Brienne's two last chapters referring to the 9th circle - sin of betrayal (political, against lord/lady and guests)... and technically Brienne did betray her lady... which is why GRRM worked in Biter chewing her cheek. In Dante's Inferno, Satan's 3 heads chew on the worst betrayers - Judas, Brutus and Scipius.

Brutus and Scipius also tried to argue they were within the law of removing a tyrant when they caesared Caesar in the Senate. But Anthony's burrial speech showed that such technicalities did not make it any less of a cowardly murder, and they were chased out of Rome for it.

I would say Halfhand's speech to Jon applies here... it's not the literal vow/custom that matters, but the heart of it. Guest right can be seen as dependent of taking a separate pinch of salt together aside from the bread (and not hours later), or it can be seen as extending safety to people you invite as your guests into your home. Robb and Cat and everybody else were guests at the Twins, and no 'mayhaps' or a separate pinch of salt taken simultaneously at the time of eating the bread and butter can unguest them. If you compare it with Manderly's actions - he made sure he performed the technicalities as well as the heart of the matter. The Freys were safe under his roof. But once they were neither actual nor technical guests anymore he had them killed and worked into Frey pie. There's no way that 'well, they didn't get a separate pinch of salt' will wash in Westeros. The Freys are pretty much pariahs even in the eyes of the Lannisters. And in the end that's all that will count in the eyes of many knights, outlaws, warriors and houses to have the Freys slaughtered, even if the Freys are their allies.

You are the one insisting on a false premise. I provided a link that explains the custom you are obviously unfamiliar with. It is silly to formulate a sentence like "you admitted that salt is used in many dishes...". There is nothing to admit. It is a tautology. 

[Modesty Lannister]

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't think anyone in Westeros would agree with you on this.  Should Walder plead to the Northern and River lords that he never gave their relatives and men guest right before his bloody betrayal they would condemn his treachery and murder as much as his trickery and take his head off just as fast with the rest of Westeros applauding.

Bear in mind that all of the characters in the story know exactly how guest right works and none of them thought that anything was amiss with what was offered.

Bread and salt: too simple staples that are symbolic of basic hospitality and the giving of which is elevated into a ritual.  I am curious as to the particular magic of salt as the symbolic offering of food once asked for to secure guest right seems the more significant and binding part of the ritual.

You are mixing up two different and usually exclusive categories - what we, as readers, know and what characters in the book know. What I remarked is what we should have seen, but failed to - that no salt was ever offered. Characters who who did not survive the feast cannot know this. And it is irrelevant for my argument, which is what does this piece of information tell us. You are reading my remark wrongly. Also, I do not understand your last sentence. 

[Modesty Lannister]

5 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Nicely written. 

@Modesty Lannister - As far as the salt & bread go, even if they weren't offered it when Cat asked for it, I'm sure there was salt at the wedding feast before the slaughter.  I don't recall if it's specifically mentioned in this feast but Jon makes a comment about "sitting below the salt" at the WF feast so I have to assume it's at all big occasions.  You know I love your work, but my soul needs them to be guilty of breaking guest right and needs them to die painfully and slowly, please don't take that away. 

I have another question to add to this.  Cat chides Lord Frey when she first meets with him to discuss the terms of crossing.  Riverrun called it's banners.  Why didn't the Frey's face some sort of punishment for not answering the call?  Why did the even have to make terms?  As bannermen to Riverrun they should have allowed Cat et al to cross to lift the siege at Riverrun and aid their liege lord.  (Plot devices aside, of course)

Lol. I understand your need. But, I was not talking about our needs. I was analysing the OP presented and the passage about food is not accidental. In it, Robb specifically asks for salt. And it is not brought to the table. In that moment, they should have all realised what was going on. And they didn't. And neither did we. That is how well GRRM plays with our perception and demonstrates psychology of his characters. 

Well, both times Freys "were late to answer the call", the banners were called in rebellion to the official king. Even Stannis had his inner debate on whether to follow his brother or his king during Robert's rebellion. So, technically, Freys were obeying a higher judicial and overall power - the crown. In both cases.

[corbon]

15 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

“My lord!” Catelyn had almost forgotten. “Some food would be most welcome. We have ridden many leagues in the rain.”
Walder Frey’s mouth moved in and out. “Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage.”
“Some wine to wash it down,” Robb said. “And salt.”
“Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course.” The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord
Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. “My guests,” he said. “My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table.”

I'm not sure the bread and salt are the most important parts of the ritual. Lord Walder named them honoured guests. I would guess that thats the most important thing for guest right, and that the bread and salt are merely symbolic of this. The possible lack of the symbolism doesn't affect the clear statement of status, I would think. But thats secondary.

I also think the butter is the salt. Bread and butter - not exactly a dish for hungry visitors who have ridden many leagues in the rain. And Catelyn just nibbles at it, then feels safe and the guests are specified as eating the bread and butter, (who cares about the cheese!). It looks very clear to me that this is the ritual.
Just because some earth cultures use actual salt doesn;t mean it must be that way in westeros.

[Modesty Lannister]

2 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

Yeah, it might be just that she was too tired and struck by hatred and grief to see. Almost all the readers and surely all of the show watchers missed it too. So, all in all, it's forgiveable. As I said, I don't hold it against her. I'm just saying that, were she as sharp as she used to be before it all, she'd have seen right through it.

Yeah, they weren't served salt. Pending confirmation, I don't think any guest in our story is actively described as being served salt. But I'll have a look into it, if University work allows me to.

Thanks for the compliment. I agreee with you 100 percent. Actually, I might make my next thread about "Eddard, Ilyn, Maester Pycelle and Myrish looking glasses".  

That. I agree with that 100 percent. I don't think that by not giving them salt Walder is excused in the sight of the gods, and I'm sure he isn't in the sight of (most) men, so there's that. 

Frey is a hard man to deal with. And, in the world of ASOIAF, second place houses are a lord's biggest enemy. Tyrells and Florents, Lanisters and Reynes, Starks and Boltons, Tullys and Freys and Mallisters and Blackwoods and Brackens and etc. The Riverlands are a tough place to be politically dominant over. Hoster was good at his job.

I do not think any character in the book asked for salt separately, but Robb. And by asking for it, he is politely and indirectly demanding his guest right. And he is denied. Yet he doesn't realise it. So, it is a subtle game of symbols that should not have gone unnoticed. Whether that excuses Freys in the sight of Gods is debatable. I'd say it does excuse them of the Cook's Pie scenario. It does not excuse them of mass murder on the same level it does not excuse Roose or Tywin. I have just noted that the absence of guest right puts them in the same category with those two instead of a higher villainy than that - breach of guest right and mass murder. Readers are so emotional that they fail to see that I am not excusing Freys. I'm merely pointing out they never granted any guest right and Robb's party, who discussed it prior to the feast, fails to notice it. Finally, I provided a link describing the custom. It is nowadays mostly a Slavic one, so not all the readers are familiar with it. Eating bread and salt is NOT the same as eating salty food. There is a huge symbolic difference and our characters know it, as Robb's demand clearly shows. Yet, they fail to notice that there is not actual salt there. And this fascinates me. Great writing by GRRM. 

[evita mgfs]

 Frey does offer hospitality:

"My honored guests, be welcome within my walls and at my table. I extend to you my hospitality and protection in the light of the Seven."

―Lord Walder Frey to King Robb Stark and his retainers.

These are further examples of violating guest rite, along with my earlier post regarding Jaime Lannister, who pushes the son of his host from a window.

The black brothers of the Night’s Watch who accuse Jon Snow of crimes are “collectively” represented by a retinue of rangers who violate the most sacred laws of hospitality, an offence punishable by the gods themselves.  Martin does not mention “salt or bread”.

Case in point:  in these four ways do the NW breech guest rite:

1]. The SBs killed the man “hosting” them – Craster provides shelter to the Lord Commander and his retainers while allowing the NW rangers land on which to set their camps.  Craster invites guests to eat at his board.  Mormont gifts Craster an axe, fulfilling guest rite.  Yet the SWs repay their host for his generosity with insolence and ingratitude.

2].  The SBs rape the wives and daughters under Craster’s protection, scornfully disregarding Craster’s own house rules requesting the men stay away from his women.

3].  The SBs eat the stores of Craster’s keep that are meant to feed his family through a long winter, leaving the women to forage for themselves or starve to death – and leaving the women without the protection of their man Craster.

4]. The SBs kill their own Lord Commander after they put down Craster. 

Unlike his Sworn Bothers . . .

****Jon Snow refuses to eat at Craster’s board, the “plot armor” that will somehow bring some good fortune to Jon in some way –a reward for the “hero”!

****Sam wins hero “reward” because he facilitates Bran and company’s passage beyond the Wall.

****Now, when a Sworn Brother kills another, is that “kinslaying”?  If so, then the black brothers have even more transgressions for which they must answer.

Remember what Old Nan tells Bran about the NW and the Wall?

BTW/A few of those black brothers from Craster’s Keep are justly repaid for their discourteous behaviors:  I believe that ColdHands sees to their demise and carves one up as a dish fit for Bran, Jojen, Meera, and Hodor.

Bon Appetite!

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I do not think any character in the book asked for salt separately, but Robb. And by asking for it, he is politely and indirectly demanding his guest right. And he is denied.

Frey explicitly announces him as an honoured guest under his roof immediately after this. Then the food is brought, not the sort of food to satisfy weary travellers, the food, which is bread and a palatable form of salt commonly eaten with bread is eaten and then wariness is relaxed.

Everything I see in that scene tells me that guest right has been granted and all the forms satisfied.

Quote

 Finally, I provided a link describing the custom. It is nowadays mostly a Slavic one, so not all the readers are familiar with it. Eating bread and salt is NOT the same as eating salty food.

The Slavic custom may not count butter but the westeros custom need not be identical to the slavic one.

Quote

There is a huge symbolic difference and our characters know it, as Robb's demand clearly shows. Yet, they fail to notice that there is not actual salt there. And this fascinates me. Great writing by GRRM. 

I think its pretty clear. They are clearly nervous. They make a clear (and recognised) requested for guest right. They receive an explicit invitation as guests and partake lightly of food that appears to serve no other purpose than the ritual of guest right. Then they relax.
I don't think is some big trick that they fell for. I think that guest right was clearly satisfied in their opinion and I back their knowledge over yours, even if that means subtle variances from some established guest right customs on earth.

ETA: Some support for butter as the salt in bread and salt...
whilst Groat's sister instructed him in the finer points of the mummer's joust that had been their bread and salt.

I may not have been at Ashford Meadow, but jousting is my bread and salt. I follow tourneys from afar as faithfully as the maesters follow stars

Clearly bread and salt substitutes is westeros  the exact same way we would use bread and butter. Which strongly suggests that butter counts as the salt in bread and salt if needed to.

[Modesty Lannister]

39 minutes ago, corbon said:

Frey explicitly announces him as an honoured guest under his roof immediately after this. Then the food is brought, not the sort of food to satisfy weary travellers, the food, which is bread and a palatable form of salt commonly eaten with bread is eaten and then wariness is relaxed.

Everything I see in that scene tells me that guest right has been granted and all the forms satisfied.

The Slavic custom may not count butter but the westeros custom need not be identical to the slavic one.

I think its pretty clear. They are clearly nervous. They make a clear (and recognised) requested for guest right. They receive an explicit invitation as guests and partake lightly of food that appears to serve no other purpose than the ritual of guest right. Then they relax.
I don't think is some big trick that they fell for. I think that guest right was clearly satisfied in their opinion and I back their knowledge over yours, even if that means subtle variances from some established guest right customs on earth.

Now you are just inventing to suit your own needs. Offering bread and salt IS a Westerosi custom, BECAUSE Cat and Robb discuss it at length. Robb insists on salt. And I clearly wrote that the custom still exists in Slavic countries today. The same custom existed throughout Europe in the Middle Ages, Scotland included. And Scotland is the author's source for the Red Wedding. You see what you want to see and you fail to see what I have actually written and read the link provided. A king is an honoured guest by default, but that does not automatically grant him protection as Aerys found out in Duskendale. But, somehow, because Aerys is not liked by the readers, no one complains about him being taken prisoner and that "breach of guest right". The fact that Robb demands salt serves to inform the readers that the situation is so tense, Robb is seeking to formalise the guest right. He demands protection. And Frey ignores that demand. All I can see in most responses is that some readers love Robb and Cat and want to excuse their lack of perception. I am sorry, but I never analyse a text on the basis on my personal preference of characters. This is not a contest. Text analysis means that we read what the writer has written and analyse the implication of the content. GRRM is an intricate writer. Every word counts. With another writer, an omission of salt might have been a slip. With GRRM it is impossible. He omitted it deliberately. I stated my analysis of the foreshadowing behind it and the psychology that the writer wanted to underline. Also, note that Frey emphasises that he welcomes them "in the light of the Seven". Yet they are northerners and that is not their religion at all. Cook's pie is a northern story dealing with the Old Gods religion. This excellent OP stated many clues that the Red Wedding was imminent that Robb's party failed to notice. I just pointed out to yet another clue. 

[corbon]

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Now you are just inventing to suit your own needs.

Umm, I don't have any needs here and I'm not 'inventing' anything. I've even provided quotes from the text that show 'bread and salt' is a term used in westeros exactly equivalent to 'bread and butter' here.

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Offering bread and salt IS a Westerosi custom, BECAUSE Cat and Robb discuss it at length. Robb insists on salt.

Now who is inventing? Robb doesn't 'insist' on anything, he asks for 'salt'. The only question is whether he got it. Both the usage elsewhere and the relaxation of the Starks here suggest that getting butter is exactly equivalent to getting salt.
Its you who is deciding that butter doesn't qualify for salt. The text does not suggest that, and in fact elsewhere it shows that salt and butter are interchanged.

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

And I clearly wrote that the custom still exists in Slavic countries today. The same custom existed throughout Europe in the Middle Ages, Scotland included. And Scotland is the author's source for the Red Wedding. You see what you want to see and you fail to see what I have actually written and read the link provided.

You seem to be arguing at a cross purpose here. I'm not denying the custom, I'm suggesting that the form need not be absolutely identical to the earth form. Given that the characters clearly relax, and given the usage of bread/salt for bread/butter elsewhere in the text, I don't see what grounds you have for denying the possibility?

In general, when characters appear to do something 'stupid' or miss something 'obvious', I tend to try to check my preconceptions and try to proceed on the assumption that the characters probably understand their own culture, rules, social conventions, rituals, etc, much better than I do. So I question when I say 'gosh that was stupid of them' and check around for what did I miss. It might turn out they were stupid. But generally, not-stupid characters tend to stay not-stupid.
In this case you seem to be saying "gosh, what a huge blunder - they asked for bread and salt, were only given bread, and relaxed anyway". Its really quite ridiculous that they expressly asked for salt because they were nervous about guest right and then relaxed when they ate the food but didn't actually qualify for guest right due to a lack of salt. So I question the assumption that they didn't get the 'salt' component.
In this case, the addition of butter before Catelyn relaxes combined with the use of the phrase "bread and salt" in exactly the way we would use "bread and butter" convinces me that the butter covered the salt and they didn't make an enormous blunder here. Between that and the formal pronouncement, they really were offered full guest right by Walder.

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

A king is an honoured guest by default, but that does not automatically grant him protection as Aerys found out in Duskendale. But, somehow, because Aerys is not liked by the readers, no one complains about him being taken prisoner and that "breach of guest right".

Lack of complaining has nothing to do with dislike of Aerys and everything to do with no knowledge of what went down.

And a king is not automatically an honoured guest. If he was not offered guest right, either by bread and salt, ritual or declaration, then he did not have guest right just because he wore a crown.

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

The fact that Robb demands salt serves to inform the readers that the situation is so tense, Robb is seeking to formalise the guest right. He demands protection. And Frey ignores that demand.

But Frey does not ignore that demand. He acknowledges it and orders the food, including bread and perhaps a qualified form of salt, brought up and immediately makes a formal declaration of their status as guests.
“Some wine to wash it down,” Robb said. “And salt.”
“Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course.” The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. “My guests,” he said. “My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table.”

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

All I can see in most responses is that some readers love Robb and Cat and want to excuse their lack of perception.

Perhaps you should look past your bias against some readers then and read what they actually wrote?

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I am sorry, but I never analyse a text on the basis on my personal preference of characters. This is not a contest.

Perhaps you should give others whose opinions different from your own the benefit of the doubt on having exactly the same attitude?

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

This is not a contest. Text analysis means that we read what the writer has written and analyse the implication of the content. GRRM is an intricate writer. Every word counts.

Agreed.

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

With another writer, an omission of salt might have been a slip. With GRRM it is impossible. He omitted it deliberately.

Or, he didn't omit it. He included it, but subtly (you are right, he's intricate and tricky), and showed he did elsewhere in the text

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I stated my analysis of the foreshadowing behind it and the psychology that the writer wanted to underline. Also, note that Frey emphasises that he welcomes them "in the light of the Seven". Yet they are northerners and that is not their religion at all.

Actually, Catelyn is a follower of the Seven, as he very well knows. More importantly, he's likely a follower of the Seven (in as much as he follows any gods, he seems like a fairly godless man in general) and so in his house, the welcome would be in the light of the seven.

47 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Cook's pie is a northern story dealing with the Old Gods religion. This excellent OP stated many clues that the Red Wedding was imminent that Robb's party failed to notice. I just pointed out to yet another clue. 

I agree with all the other clues. I just think you jumped to conclusions with this one.

[corbon]

3 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

 

Quote

Bread and salt: too simple staples that are symbolic of basic hospitality and the giving of which is elevated into a ritual.  I am curious as to the particular magic of salt as the symbolic offering of food once asked for to secure guest right seems the more significant and binding part of the ritual.

 Also, I do not understand your last sentence. 

tthe is suggesting, as I also did, that its possible that neither the bread nor the salt are actually critical to gaining guest rights. Its possible that its merely the symbolic offering of food (or declaration of guest status) that is the important feature, and the bread and salt are no more individually critical to the process than, for example, unleavened bread and real wine are for christian communion (in the tradition I grew up in just about anything could substitute as the ritual was symbolic and the real relevance was the personal meaning, not the ingredients - I can recall a wide variety of substances used from ribena, to powder-packet juice, to real grape juice, to apple-blackcurrant juice, to non-alcoholic wines).

I don't think we've actually seen any explicit application of the bread and salt ritual other than the bread, butter and cheese here. Every other use of bread and salt is an indirect reference to the ritual, a not-relevant connection between salted meat and bread, or a bread-and-butter reference using slat in place of butter.

Here's another one for you.
She did indeed. She saw to the mulling of the wine first, found a suitable wheel of sharp white cheese, and commanded the cook to bake bread enough for twenty, in case the Lords Declarant brought more men than expected. Once they eat our bread and salt they are our guests and cannot harm us. The Freys had broken all the laws of hospitality when they'd murdered her lady mother and her brother at the Twins, but she could not believe that a lord as noble as Yohn Royce would ever stoop to do the same.
Sansa/Alayne is preparing bread and cheese for guests and references them eating their (Littlefinger and her's) bread and salt without any indication of also preparing salt.

[Modesty Lannister]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Umm, I don't have any needs here and I'm not 'inventing' anything. I've even provided quotes from the text that show 'bread and salt' is a term used in westeros exactly equivalent to 'bread and butter' here.

Now who is inventing? Robb doesn't 'insist' on anything, he asks for 'salt'. The only question is whether he got it. Both the usage elsewhere and the relaxation of the Starks here suggest that getting butter is exactly equivalent to getting salt.
Its you who is deciding that butter doesn't qualify for salt. The text does not suggest that, and in fact elsewhere it shows that salt and butter are interchanged.

You seem to be arguing at a cross purpose here. I'm not denying the custom, I'm suggesting that the form need not be absolutely identical to the earth form. Given that the characters clearly relax, and given the usage of bread/salt for bread/butter elsewhere in the text, I don't see what grounds you have for denying the possibility?

In general, when characters appear to do something 'stupid' or miss something 'obvious', I tend to try to check my preconceptions and try to proceed on the assumption that the characters probably understand their own culture, rules, social conventions, rituals, etc, much better than I do. So I question when I say 'gosh that was stupid of them' and check around for what did I miss. It might turn out they were stupid. But generally, not-stupid characters tend to stay not-stupid.
In this case you seem to be saying "gosh, what a huge blunder - they asked for bread and salt, were only given bread, and relaxed anyway". Its really quite ridiculous that they expressly asked for salt because they were nervous about guest right and then relaxed when they ate the food but didn't actually qualify for guest right due to a lack of salt. So I question the assumption that they didn't get the 'salt' component.
In this case, the addition of butter before Catelyn relaxes combined with the use of the phrase "bread and salt" in exactly the way we would use "bread and butter" convinces me that the butter covered the salt and they didn't make an enormous blunder here. Between that and the formal pronouncement, they really were offered full guest right by Walder.

Lack of complaining has nothing to do with dislike of Aerys and everything to do with no knowledge of what went down.

And a king is not automatically an honoured guest. If he was not offered guest right, either by bread and salt, ritual or declaration, then he did not have guest right just because he wore a crown.

But Frey does not ignore that demand. He acknowledges it and orders the food, including bread and perhaps a qualified form of salt, brought up and immediately makes a formal declaration of their status as guests.
“Some wine to wash it down,” Robb said. “And salt.”
“Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course.” The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. “My guests,” he said. “My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table.”

Perhaps you should look past your bias against some readers then and read what they actually wrote?

Perhaps you should give others whose opinions different from your own the benefit of the doubt on having exactly the same attitude?

Agreed.

Or, he didn't omit it. He included it, but subtly (you are right, he's intricate and tricky), and showed he did elsewhere in the text

Actually, Catelyn is a follower of the Seven, as he very well knows. More importantly, he's likely a follower of the Seven (in as much as he follows any gods, he seems like a fairly godless man in general) and so in his house, the welcome would be in the light of the seven.

I agree with all the other clues. I just think you jumped to conclusions with this one.

I am always up for a debate. However, I do not have time for maze walking. We disagree. I stated my arguments. I find your objections insufficient and pointless, especially since you yourself admitted you agree with all other clues our author and OP put in place that red-flagged the Red Wedding. So, Robb's party and the readers were forewarned. Yet, in the first reading most readers, like Robb's party, missed the clues. I added yet another clue. You keep objecting that particular clue. That doesn't change a point of this thread. I cannot discuss anything with someone who thinks that "bread and salt" = "bread and butter" although the former custom exists both in GRRM's imaginary and our real world while the latter does not exist at all, or makes no distinction between welcoming guests and guest's right to protection granted by the said custom. So, let's agree to disagree. We have enough clues that the Red Wedding was imminent with or without us agreeing on this point. Why are you so passionate about that particular point, which doesn't change the OP's point, but just adds to it, is beyond me. Ah, well ...

[Modesty Lannister]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

tthe is suggesting, as I also did, that its possible that neither the bread nor the salt are actually critical to gaining guest rights. Its possible that its merely the symbolic offering of food (or declaration of guest status) that is the important feature, and the bread and salt are no more individually critical to the process than, for example, unleavened bread and real wine are for christian communion (in the tradition I grew up in just about anything could substitute as the ritual was symbolic and the real relevance was the personal meaning, not the ingredients - I can recall a wide variety of substances used from ribena, to powder-packet juice, to real grape juice, to apple-blackcurrant juice, to non-alcoholic wines).

I don't think we've actually seen any explicit application of the bread and salt ritual other than the bread, butter and cheese here. Every other use of bread and salt is an indirect reference to the ritual, a not-relevant connection between salted meat and bread, or a bread-and-butter reference using slat in place of butter.

Here's another one for you.
She did indeed. She saw to the mulling of the wine first, found a suitable wheel of sharp white cheese, and commanded the cook to bake bread enough for twenty, in case the Lords Declarant brought more men than expected. Once they eat our bread and salt they are our guests and cannot harm us. The Freys had broken all the laws of hospitality when they'd murdered her lady mother and her brother at the Twins, but she could not believe that a lord as noble as Yohn Royce would ever stoop to do the same.
Sansa/Alayne is preparing bread and cheese for guests and references them eating their (Littlefinger and her's) bread and salt without any indication of also preparing salt.

You have just provided another quote that proves my point and yet you keep disagreeing. Why is it so difficult to understand? The custom of offering bread and salt is a very well known one throughout Europe. The salt is not prepared. It is offered with bread. First. Separartely from other food. After that, one can eat anything one likes to one's heart content or nothing at all. Rob and Cat mentioned "bread and salt". Sansa mentions "bread and salt". They do not mention bread and cheese, bread and butter, bread and whatever. Read what is written in the text and then analyse it. Why is it so difficult?

And although I provided a link, I will not quote from it yet again:

Quote

Bread and salt is a welcome greeting ceremony in many European cultures.

The tradition, known by its local Slavic names: Belarusian: Хлеб і соль; Bulgarian: Хляб и сол; Macedonian: Леб и сол; Croatian: Kruh i sol; Serbian: Хлеб и со; Polish: Chleb i Sól; Slovak: Chlieb a soľ; Czech: Chléb a sůl; Slovene: Kruh in sol; Russian: Хлеб-соль, Ukrainian: Хліб і сіль was also adopted by three non-Slavic nations — Lithuanians, Latvians (both Baltic) and Romanians (Latin) — all three of which are culturally and historically close to their Slavic neighbours (Lithuanian: Duona ir druska. Latvian: Sālsmaize and Romanian: Pâine și sare). It is also common in Armenia (Armenian: աղ ու հաց, agh u hats).

When important, respected, or admired guests arrive, they are presented with a loaf of bread placed on a rushnik (embroidered towel). A salt holder or a salt cellar is placed on top of the bread loaf or secured in a hole on the top of the loaf. In modern Russia, on official occasions, the "bread and salt" is presented by young women dressed in national costumes (e.g., sarafan and kokoshnik).

In fiction[edit]

The custom of serving bread and salt to guests is a recurring reference in George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire novels, where the welcome ritual serves as not only as a Westerosi tradition of hospitality but also a formal assurance of "guest right", a sacred bond of trust and honor guaranteeing that nobody in attendance, hosts and guests alike, shall be harmed. Violating the guest right is widely considered the highest moral crime, an affront worthy of the worst damnation.

Rudyard Kipling referenced bread and salt in a number of works. In The Ballad of East and West, leavened bread and salt is mentioned as binding an oath of blood brothership. At the beginning of Puck of Pook's Hill Puck establishes his credentials with the child protagonists by asking them to sprinkle plenty of salt on their shared meal. ""That'll show you the sort of person I am."

In Rosemary Sutcliff's historical novel Outcast, bread and salt is referred to as a sign of belonging to a tribe: "You are my people, my own people, by hearth fire and bread and salt"

Since Lord Frey, like Robb and Cat, knows that the breach of guest right is the highest moral crime, he tries to avoid it by not offering salt. And no one notices it. Yes, we can argue that this is a technicality, but the fact that Frey never offered salt shows that he is well aware of the enormity of crime he is about to commit and he wants to, at least, exonerate himself in front of the Gods by refusing to go through the ritual of granting the guest right. As GRRM repeatedly said, "words are wind". Frey can say welcome as many times as he pleases, but without an actual ritual of "bread and salt" that welcome means nothing. That is why GRRM put the whole bit about the importance of the "bread and salt" ritual in the chapters preceding the Red Wedding one. To warn us how important the ritual is. It is not his fault we missed the lack of salt and the lack of ritual.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I added yet another clue. You keep objecting that particular clue. That doesn't change a point of this thread. I cannot discuss anything with someone who thinks that "bread and salt" = "bread and butter" although the former custom exists both in GRRM's imaginary and our real world while the latter does not exist at all, or makes no distinction between welcoming guests and guest's right to protection granted by the said custom.

I'll repeat the quotes I already provided for you.
whilst Groat's sister instructed him in the finer points of the mummer's joust that had been their bread and salt.

The Snail shrugged. "I may not have been at Ashford Meadow, but jousting is my bread and salt. I follow tourneys from afar as faithfully as the maesters follow stars.

2 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

So, let's agree to disagree. We have enough clues that the Red Wedding was imminent with or without us agreeing on this point. Why are you so passionate about that particular point, which doesn't change the OP's point, but just adds to it, is beyond me. Ah, well ...

Why are you so passionate? I've just stated a disagreement and backed it up with text. You've been insulting and rude as soon as anyone disagreed with you.

Bread and salt is mentioned many times. But we actually only see food connected with a 'bread and salt' guest right twice - once before the red wedding and once with Alayne Stone preparing for visitors. In both cases bread and cheese/butter was provided and actual salt not mentioned. In the one case we saw the eating happen, the nervous guests were immediately relieved after eating the bread and butter/cheese.
Between these two appearances, 100% of the times we see 'bread and salt' in action or preparation, and the two quotes above that show westerosi using the phrase 'bread and salt' exactly the way we use 'bread and butter', your insistence that 'bread and salt' can only be fulfilled using actual salt and that Catelyn and Rob are complete idiots for not realising that they'd been shafted and not received guest right after all is really on very very thin ground..

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

You are the one insisting on a false premise. I provided a link that explains the custom you are obviously unfamiliar with. It is silly to formulate a sentence like "you admitted that salt is used in many dishes...". There is nothing to admit. It is a tautology. 

Thank you for the wiki link. And I certainly find it an interesting notion to consider. I also agree that a word can be very significant with GRRM's writing. The whole Myrish looking glass scene, the message deciphering and revealing its content... that whole convo can be divided into sections that fit the model of the Eleusinian mystery: things seen, things said, things done and all unspeakable, punishable by death. For a full page George avoids the use of the verb 'said' altogether and limits the verbs related to speaking to a minimum, while it's "see" this and "show" that or "display". And in the next half page he uses the verb "said" 7 times, even within the speech fo the characters, wile avoiding others, for example. George is meticulous.

Still, it does not convince me of your assertion that there was no guest right extended. I weigh the significance of a word in relation to context and further related developments. Since neither Cat, Robb or even the Freys themselves regard it as not being under protection of guest right speaks against the interpretation. If the Freys don't refer to it to defend their honor, but instead resort to lies, then I'm going with the Freys knowing Robb and Cat had guest right. If George writes whole chapters and characters full of mythological references and magical resurrections that fit literary divine retribution, then I'm going with Freys broke guest right. If George writes several circumstances related to the heart of the matter versus the formality of it, then I'm going with the heart of the matter.

The analogy with Sansa serving bread and cheese and mulled wine to the Lords Declarant when they visit the Eyrie further supports the idea that guest right was established at the Twins too. We do not see "salt" given to them either, and we don't get described how they dip bread in salt. But when Corbray draws his sword, the others are clearly disgusted and apologize profusedly and they cannot but give in to LF's request for a year. The Lords Declarant obviously believed themselves to be both under the protection of guest right as well as believing themselves to honor it towards their host as well.

Adding all that up, I'd say, "No, there is no evidence that supports the assumption that it truly must be salt as a sidedish in aSoIaF".

[sarah.jenice]

@WilliamWesterosiWallace On Roslin's fertility and the maester laughing, are you saying it's just because Roslin is likely to get quickly pregnant with Edmure's boy child so he can be quickly killed off or that Roslin is the perfect choice because she's already pregnant from one of her brothers thus ensuring a Frey takes control of the Twins? I felt like you were going there by emphasizing why Roslin was the choice, but then you didn't. It's not something I've ever considered, but Edmure isn't exactly in a position to voice suspicions that his wife may not have been a maiden on their wedding night and that is something that can be missed (note Robert and Cersei). We've been told certain Frey girls were deflowered by one of their brothers (Black Walder I think), and Roslin is certainly the pretty sister in the Twins if your'e into that. 

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

2 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

@WilliamWesterosiWallace On Roslin's fertility and the maester laughing, are you saying it's just because Roslin is likely to get quickly pregnant with Edmure's boy child so he can be quickly killed off or that Roslin is the perfect choice because she's already pregnant from one of her brothers thus ensuring a Frey takes control of the Twins? I felt like you were going there by emphasizing why Roslin was the choice, but then you didn't. It's not something I've ever considered, but Edmure isn't exactly in a position to voice suspicions that his wife may not have been a maiden on their wedding night and that is something that can be missed (note Robert and Cersei). We've been told certain Frey girls were deflowered by one of their brothers (Black Walder I think), and Roslin is certainly the pretty sister in the Twins if your'e into that. 

The point I made was quite clear IMO: Roslin Frey is the most likely Frey to get pregnant with a boy as quickly as possible, and whose kid is most likely to live beyond infancy. I'm not saying she is pregnant, I'm saying she is the most likely to get preggers as fast as she can, and to have a baby that'll live beyond infancy.

It is Fair Walda who was broken in by Black Walder:

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Black Walder was a man who took what he wanted, even his brother’s wife. He’d had Edwyn’s wife too, that was common knowledge, Fair Walda had been known to slip into his bed from time to time, and some even said he’d known the seventh Lady Frey a deal better than he should have. Small wonder he refused to marry. Why buy a cow when there were udders all around begging to be milked?

Roslin was a maiden, 100%. Frey doesn't need Roslin to put out a whelp that looks so much like a Frey it's almost Rhaenyra-like, he needs a Tully. And he'll get that soon enough, as AFFC tells us. Roslin is pregnant, most likely with a boy, judging by her mother's pregnancies, and Edmure is looking at death. 

And I proposed that the maester laughed because he knew Catelyn was gonna get Red Wedding'd soon enough.

[DarkSister1001]

10 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

Lol. I understand your need. But, I was not talking about our needs. I was analysing the OP presented and the passage about food is not accidental. In it, Robb specifically asks for salt. And it is not brought to the table. In that moment, they should have all realised what was going on. And they didn't. And neither did we. That is how well GRRM plays with our perception and demonstrates psychology of his characters. 

Well, both times Freys "were late to answer the call", the banners were called in rebellion to the official king. Even Stannis had his inner debate on whether to follow his brother or his king during Robert's rebellion. So, technically, Freys were obeying a higher judicial and overall power - the crown. In both cases.

I agree that it was a way to let us know that something was amiss.  But I think by providing salt (even if only at the feast) and by welcoming them and offering protection the Frey's still violated GR. 

As to the bolded, that makes sense, thank you.  But I am surprised that in both cases they weren't punished in some way by Riverrun. 

[Raisin' Bran]

11 hours ago, evita mgfs said:

So, because Martin does not detail that Jaime Lannister ate bread and salt at the feast host Ned Stark throws in honor of the King’s arrival at WF, then Jaime does not violate the laws of hospitality when he pushes the son of his host from the window of the broken tower?

Jaime tells Bran to “Take my hand.”  It sure seems strange that Jaime loses that hand that Bran takes.

Martin’s exactness as a writer certainly speaks to his choice of words for Jaime’s dialogue.  Jaime could have said any number of things:  “Hold on!”  “Grab my hand!”  “Let me pull you up!”  “Use my hand!”  “Hold my hand.”  “I’ve got you – just hold on!”

But Jaime clearly says "Take my hand!"  

I think that this is good support for the fact that Jaime, and by extension Walder, broke guest right. Thanks Evita.

4 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

@WilliamWesterosiWallace On Roslin's fertility and the maester laughing, are you saying it's just because Roslin is likely to get quickly pregnant with Edmure's boy child so he can be quickly killed off or that Roslin is the perfect choice because she's already pregnant from one of her brothers thus ensuring a Frey takes control of the Twins? I felt like you were going there by emphasizing why Roslin was the choice, but then you didn't. It's not something I've ever considered, but Edmure isn't exactly in a position to voice suspicions that his wife may not have been a maiden on their wedding night and that is something that can be missed (note Robert and Cersei). We've been told certain Frey girls were deflowered by one of their brothers (Black Walder I think), and Roslin is certainly the pretty sister in the Twins if your'e into that. 

I took it to mean that what was said about Roslin meant that she would quickly become pregnant by Edmure. Its said that Roslin has brown eyes and chestnut brown hair. Since Tully's are blue-eyed with dark red hair, I think a Tully father would be needed for Roslin's child to have the appropriate look.

I recall that Black Walder is said to have slept with cousins (still Frey's) and good sisters (in-laws). I do not remember any mention of sisters. I do not have the text here to support it, though I think it can be found in the epilogue of ASoS and perhaps at the siege of Riverrun.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

10 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I think that this is good support for the fact that Jaime, and by extension Walder, broke guest right. Thanks Evita.

I took it to mean that what was said about Roslin meant that she would quickly become pregnant by Edmure. Its said that Roslin has brown eyes and chestnut brown hair. Since Tully's are blue-eyed with dark red hair, I think a Tully father would be needed for Roslin's child to have the appropriate look.

I recall that Black Walder is said to have slept with cousins (still Frey's) and good sisters (in-laws). I do not remember any mention of sisters. I do not have the text here to support it, though I think it can be found in the epilogue of ASoS and perhaps at the siege of Riverrun.

 

33 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

The point I made was quite clear IMO: Roslin Frey is the most likely Frey to get pregnant with a boy as quickly as possible, and whose kid is most likely to live beyond infancy. I'm not saying she is pregnant, I'm saying she is the most likely to get preggers as fast as she can, and to have a baby that'll live beyond infancy.

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Whores did have charms, especially if you had a face like Petyr’s. The poor lad had a wife, to be sure, but she was half the problem. Not only was she twice his age, but she was bedding his brother Walder too, if the talk was true. There was always lots of talk around the Twins, and only a little was ever true, but in this case Merrett believed it. Black Walder was a man who took what he wanted, even his brother’s wife. He’d had Edwyn’s wife too, that was common knowledge, Fair Walda had been known to slip into his bed from time to time, and some even said he’d known the seventh Lady Frey a deal better than he should have. Small wonder he refused to marry. Why buy a cow when there were udders all around begging to be milked?

That is from the ASOS epilogue. That seems to be all the people Black Walder was bedded.

[Raisin' Bran]

7 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

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Whores did have charms, especially if you had a face like Petyr’s. The poor lad had a wife, to be sure, but she was half the problem. Not only was she twice his age, but she was bedding his brother Walder too, if the talk was true. There was always lots of talk around the Twins, and only a little was ever true, but in this case Merrett believed it. Black Walder was a man who took what he wanted, even his brother’s wife. He’d had Edwyn’s wife too, that was common knowledge, Fair Walda had been known to slip into his bed from time to time, and some even said he’d known the seventh Lady Frey a deal better than he should have. Small wonder he refused to marry. Why buy a cow when there were udders all around begging to be milked?

That is from the ASOS epilogue. That seems to be all the people Black Walder was bedded.

So that is two good sisters and a niece. Petyr and Edwyn were Black Walder's brothers, and Fair Walda was Edwyn's daughter. Oh and his step great grandmother.