Catelyn, Walder, Maester Brenett and Myrish llooking glasses.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Catelyn's "last" chapter has her and her son's revenue arriving at the Twins to marry Edmure to the (then) unknown Roslin Frey. Cat is really mistrusting of Lord Frey, totally unfounded mistrust, by the way, and so she tells Robb to keep his cool and seek protection from the Guest Right.

Quote

“Robb, listen to me. Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof.”
Robb looked more amused than afraid. “I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don’t need to trust in bread and salt.

The thing is, Walder, Roose and Tywin already have the best idea for a boyband in mind, and they think Robb is not going to let his subjects go to their opening concert next tuesday. So, they plan on murdering him, guest right and all. 

Catelyn seem to trust Grey Wind's opinion on people, and beseeches Robb to keep his wolf close to him at all times. When Grey Wind growls at the Westerlings, Catelyn takes that as a sign so terrible she has Robb sending people away. And then this happens:

Quote

Grey Wind edged forward, tail stiff, watching through slitted eyes of dark gold. When the Freys were a halfdozen yards away Catelyn heard him growl, a deep rumble that seemed almost one with rush of the river. Robb looked startled. “Grey Wind, to me. To me!”
Instead the direwolf leapt forward, snarling.

Grey Wind knew what was going on. He knew, and he tried to avoid having his owner, his brother of sorts, be hurt by these evil men. But it wasn't enough. He needed Catelyn's voice added to his howling, to make his point, as she had before with the Westerlings.

Quote

Edmure fell in beside Catelyn. “The Late Lord Frey might have seen fit to welcome us in person,” he complained. “I am his liege lord as well as his son-to-be, and Robb’s his king.”
“When you are one-and-ninety, Brother, see how eager you are to go riding in the rain.” Yet she wondered if that was the whole truth of it. Lord Walder normally went about in a covered litter, which would have kept the worst of the rain off him. A deliberate slight? If so, it might be the first of many yet to come.

Of this slight, I forgive Walder. He didn't come himself, but he sent his heir instead. That's as good as it gets with a 91 year old.

Quote

Did he always wear a fool’s crown, or is that meant as mockery of Robb? It was a question she dare not ask.

It was a mockery to Robb, and one they shouldn't have ignored. BTW, if it isn't clear yet, this thread will be a quotefest, so be ready.

Quote

“Some would say it’s a poor king who crowns himself with bronze, Your Grace.” [...] “Small good it did them when the dragons came. Heh.” [...] You’re the fifth Lord Tully I’ve known. I outlived the other four, heh. 

Some of Frey's other slights at the welcome. Such as were expected, we have to admit. But still, one needs to respect his king, even if his king is a 16-year-old.

Quote

“And where’s your bride, Your Grace? The fair Queen Jeyne. A Westerling of the Crag, I’m told, heh.”
“I left her at Riverrun, my lord. She was too weary for more travel, as we told Ser Ryman.”
“That makes me grievous sad. I wanted to behold her with mine own weak eyes. We all did, heh. Isn’t that so, my lady?” [...] “Fairer than my own get, heh? Elsewise how could her face and form have made the King’s Grace forget his solemn promise.”

Frey is deeply hurt by this betrayal, so much so that he is prepared to dishonor his house until eternity just to get revenge. But, at this instance, all is good, of sorts. The expected slights are happening.

Quote

“Apologies, heh. Yes, you vowed to make one, I recall. I’m old, but I don’t forget such things. Not like some kings, it seems. The young remember nothing when they see a pretty face and a nice firm pair of teats, isn’t that so? I was the same. Some might say I still am, heh heh. They’d be wrong, though, wrong as you were. But now you’re here to make amends. It was my girls you spurned, though. Mayhaps it’s them should hear you beg for pardon, Your Grace. My maiden girls. Here, have a look at them.”

Not like some kings, it seems. Heh.

Quote

“Good,” the Lord of the Crossing said. “That was very good, Your Grace. ‘No words can set it right’ heh. Well said, well said. At the wedding feast I hope you will not refuse to dance with my daughters. It would please an old man’s heart, heh.”

'No words can set it right', heh. 

And now, one of Catelyn's biggest missed hints, that everyone likes quoting from time to time. As follows:

Quote

“My lord is kind,” the Lady Roslin said to Edmure.
“My lady is beautiful.” Edmure took her hand and drew her to her feet. “But why are you crying?”
“For joy,” Roslin said. “I weep for joy, my lord.”
“Enough,” Lord Walder broke in. “You may weep and whisper after you’re wed, heh. Benfrey, see your sister back to her chambers, she has a wedding to prepare for. And a bedding, heh, the sweetest part. For all, for all.” His mouth moved in and out. “We’ll have music, such sweet music, and wine, heh, the red will run, and we’ll put some wrongs aright. But now you’re weary, and wet as well, dripping on my floor. There’s fires waiting for you, and hot mulled wine, and baths if you want ‘em. Lothar, show our guests to their quarters.”
“I need to see my men across the river, my lord,” Robb said.
“They shan’t get lost,” Lord Walder complained. “They’ve crossed before, haven’t they? When you came down from the north. You wanted crossing and I gave it to you, and you never said mayhaps, heh. But suit yourself. Lead each man across by the hand if you like, it’s naught to me.”
“My lord!” Catelyn had almost forgotten. “Some food would be most welcome. We have ridden many leagues in the rain.”
Walder Frey’s mouth moved in and out. “Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage.”
“Some wine to wash it down,” Robb said. “And salt.”
“Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course.” The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord
Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. “My guests,” he said. “My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table.”

My bet is, Walder was hoping not to have to give them guest right just then. Mayhaps he thought he could avoid it all by simply having the Red Wedding happen at the wedding rather than after the feast. So, when he says his "heh", it just might be his grudging to grant them guest right. Notice he didn't grant it to any of the soldiers he butchered. He kept them outside his castles.

Quote

“We thank you for your hospitality, my lord,” Robb replied. Edmure echoed him, along with the Greatjon, Ser Marq Piper, and the others. They drank his wine and ate his bread and butter. Catelyn tasted the wine and nibbled at some bread, and felt much the better for it. Now we should be safe, she thought.

Heh.

Quote

“Why would the old weasel refuse to let me choose unless he meant to foist off someone hideous?”
“Your fondness for a pretty face is well known,” Catelyn reminded him. “Perhaps Lord Walder actually wants you to be happy with your bride.” Or more like, he did not want you balking over a boil and upsetting all his plans. “Or it may be that Roslin is the old man’s favorite. The Lord of Riverrun is a much better match than most of his daughters can hope for.”
“True.” Her brother still seemed uncertain, however. “Is it possible the girl is barren?”
“Lord Walder wants his grandson to inherit Riverrun. How would it serve him to give you a barren wife?”
“It rids him of a daughter no one else would take.”
“Small good that will do him. Walder Frey is a peevish man, not a stupid one.”
“Still... it is possible?”
“Yes,” Catelyn conceded, reluctantly.

If only Catelyn had an insight now. If she read what she just said, it might pop up in her head the idea that Frey chose the one most likely girl to get pregnant (with a boy) ASAP. That's what the maester tells us:

Quote

When she told him of Edmure’s concerns about Lady Roslin’s fertility, he chuckled. “Your lord brother need have no fear, Lady Catelyn. She’s small, I’ll grant you, and narrow in the hips, but her mother was the same, and Lady Bethany gave Lord Walder a child every year.”
“How many lived past infancy?” she asked bluntly.
“Five.” He ticked them off on fingers plump as sausages. “Ser Perwyn. Ser Benfrey. Maester Willamen, who took his vows last year and now serves Lord Hunter in the Vale. Olyvar, who squired for your son. And Lady Roslin, the youngest. Four boys to one girl. Lord Edmure will have more sons than he knows what to do with.”
“I am sure that will please him.” So the girl was like to be fertile as well as fair of face. That should put Edmure’s mind at ease. Lord Walder had left her brother no cause for complaint, so far as she could see.

So, the man who reads the Twins' letters finds the subject of Edmure's kids a topic to chuclke about. I remind you, he is talking to the King's mother. It is not for him to take her fears lightly. And yet he finds it funny, and tells Catelyn why Walder chose Roslin. She is the most likely Frey he has to get pregnant with a boy, a Tully boy that will most likely kill his dad as soon as he is born. And so, Riverrun is made into a Frey castle. Cat should have seen something fishy already. One time it's a coincidence, two times it's a habit, but three times is a pattern. This match is too good. 

On top of that, most of the Freys that were (expected to be) loyal to the Starks are notably absent. As follows: 

Quote

“Well met, sers. Is Ser Perwyn about? He helped escort me to Storm’s End and back, when Robb sent me to speak with Lord Renly. I was looking forward to seeing him again.”
“Perwyn is away,” Lame Lothar said. “I shall give him your regards. I know he will regret having missed you.” [...]

From the next Catelyn chapter:

“Ser Ryman?”
Ser Ryman Frey blinked and said, “Sire. Yes?”
“I’d hoped to ask Olyvar to squire for me when we march north,” said Robb, “but I do not see him here. Would he be at the other feast?”
“Olyvar?” Ser Ryman shook his head. “No. Not Olyvar. Gone... gone from the castles. Duty.”
“I see.” Robb’s tone suggested otherwise. When Ser Ryman offered nothing more, the king got to his feet again.

My point is: Catelyn was extremely prickly all through Robb's campaign, and just when she should have been, she wasn't. The hinst were there, with a little bit of "Tyrionness" one could puzzle it out. 

I don't hold it against her. I'm saying she could have, and should have, not that she was obligated to. Of course, even if she did find it out, they still needed the Freys, so all they could've done is slight them even further by not attending the marriage. 

So, what do you think? Should she be able to catch the hints, or was it more for the reader than for the character? give me your thoughts!

[Raisin' Bran]

For the reader completely.

Aside from the fact that these are fictional characters, and Martin will have them behave the way he wants them to, guest right is a sacred trust. Way beyond the solemn nature of a betrothal. There was no reason to suspect nefarious plots when they had eaten of bread and salt. Yes there were hints, but those hints are only seen (unless you are ridiculously perceptive) on a reread.

I notice that in your OP that you said that only if Cat could go back and read what was said that she would have realized that there was a problem and their lives were in danger. That sounds an awful lot like a reread.

In a game where life and death are the stakes, there are no do-overs, no rereads, no extra lives.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Is it a violation of guest right when your guest is killed by another guest?  It WAS Roose who finished Robb.

 

[FrostyDornishman]

1 hour ago, Raisin' Bran said:

There was no reason to suspect nefarious plots when they had eaten of bread and salt. Yes there were hints, but those hints are only seen (unless you are ridiculously perceptive) on a reread.

This is exactly right.  We as readers have the gift of perfect hindsight.  These hints are almost all designed to seem innocuous the first time through, and on the second read fill you with dread for what's to come.

They were Starks, as honorable as the day is long.  Why wouldn't they cast their nagging suspicions aside once guest right was (supposedly) in play?  From their perspective, what choice did they have but to try and mend an alliance they thought could still be fixed?

53 minutes ago, Byrnard Sandors said:

Is it a violation of guest right when your guest is killed by another guest?  It WAS Roose who finished Robb.

 

I don't think old Walder Frey had to slit Robb's throat himself to be in violation of guest right.  As an honorable host you're promising your guests they won't intentionally come to any harm while under your roof.  Accidents and outside threats happen, but ordering the deaths of your guests is neither of those.  Plus, quite a few of the northern nobles that gained protection with Cat and Robb were slain by Frey soldiers.

[Modesty Lannister]

You put in a quote that puzzled me. When Robb asked for food that included bread and salt, the combination that grants the guest right of protection, his party got bread and cheese and butter. Note there was no mention of salt. So, it seems Robb and his party never actually ate bread and salt. Hence, they were not protected at all. That is the thing no one should have missed. Including us.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

You put in a quote that puzzled me. When Robb asked for food that included bread and salt, the combination that grants the guest right of protection, his party got bread and cheese and butter. Note there was no mention of salt. So, it seems Robb and his party never actually ate bread and salt. Hence, they were not protected at all. That is the thing no one should have missed. Including us.

Well, usually there's salt in bread... saltless bread tastes immensely different. They'd know with one bite of it.

[sweetsunray]

On the OP, nicely put together...Great work.

But it's only very noticeable in hindsight... same goes for some of the things said to Ned Stark.

Take for exmaple the Myrish looking glass that helped Luwin find the hidden message from Lysa who accused the Lannisters and the Queen of murdering Jon Arryn. Ned says Lysa is mad with grief and doesn't know what she's saying. But Cat defends it by saying that it took a lot of layers of secrecy to get it to them, and that Lysa is very much aware of the treasonous implications that if she were to accuse the Lannisters openly she might be killed for it. And yet, Robert himself mentions to Ned how Lysa went about accusing Lannisters publically right after Jon Arryn's death, before she stole off in the night with SR. Same message, but the actions do not add up. Why all the secrecy two months later when she accused the Lannisters publically already at court. Reason: to get Ned to agree to Robert's request to become hand and lure Ned to KL.

Ned learns from Cat how the VS dagger ended up being Tyrion's according to LF. And yet, during the Hand's Tourney, after Sandor beats Jaime, Renly remarks to LF that it's a pity Tyrion isn't there since then he'd have won even more money. Renly bet on Sandor, LF on Jaime and Renly implies Tyrion would have bet on Jaime as well. Ned is within earshot of the puzzle piece to expose LF's claims about the dagger as a lie. But it goes over his head.

Cat too is confronted with different versions as well. She has Tyrion saying how he'd never bet against his own brother. And at the Eyrie she learns that Jon Arryn wished to foster SR to Stannis (not Tywin), something she is told again at the Twins from Walder when she negeotiates the terms of the crossing.

George simply makes sure that all the clues are present to unravel the murder and assassination mysteries (just like Agatha Christie), except Cat and Ned aren't Hercule Poirot.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

The thing is, Walder, Roose and Tywin already have the best idea for a boyband in mind, and they think Robb is not going to let his subjects go to their opening concert next tuesday.

That is as far as I got.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

1 hour ago, Modesty Lannister said:

You put in a quote that puzzled me. When Robb asked for food that included bread and salt, the combination that grants the guest right of protection, his party got bread and cheese and butter. Note there was no mention of salt. So, it seems Robb and his party never actually ate bread and salt. Hence, they were not protected at all. That is the thing no one should have missed. Including us.

Butter is usually salted as well. The table butter you spread on bread has salt in it. Cooking butter usually does not and as @sweetsunray pointed out. saltless bread tastes very different than salted bread. Only the most rustic bread is made without salt. I'm a baker and breadmaker and I make very few loaves that do not contain some salt.

Many cheeses contain salt too.

[Modesty Lannister]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, usually there's salt in bread... saltless bread tastes immensely different. They'd know with one bite of it.

There is salt in most dishes, but that is not the point. In order to obtain a guest right of protection one does have to eat bread and a pinch of salt separately. This custom still exists in many countries. So, no salt was offered at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_salt

[Raisin' Bran]

50 minutes ago, Modesty Lannister said:

There is salt in most dishes, but that is not the point. In order to obtain a guest right of protection one does have to eat bread and a pinch of salt separately. This custom still exists in many countries. So, no salt was offered at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_salt

I do not think you are going to convince anyone of that technicality.

That is a major problem I have with the justice system these days. Too much wiggle room with technicalities. Makes it so everyone is overly concerned with the letter of the law and not the spirit with which it was written.

[Modesty Lannister]

1 hour ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I do not think you are going to convince anyone of that technicality.

That is a major problem I have with the justice system these days. Too much wiggle room with technicalities. Makes it so everyone is overly concerned with the letter of the law and not the spirit with which it was written.

I, on the other hand, firmly believe that this little discovery goes hand in hand with GRRM's way of writing. He is meticulous. He never writes fillers and every word counts. So, I do thank OP for pointing out to it, deliberately or not. What does this little piece of information tell us? It tells us that:

- no guest right was ever granted

- Robb's party failed to notice it

But, it also debunks the whole idea that the Freys offended the Gods with the Red Wedding by breaching the guest right. Subsequently, it debunks the idea that all the Freys will perish by the end of the saga. Furthermore, it re-emphasises how unperceptive Cat Stark was at that moment. GRRM is a good psychologist. Usually, when one is weary, suspicious and/or fearful, one misses the most obvious clues around them while having an impression of being vigilant. On a similar note, it reiterates how unexperienced Robb was, although that has been evident even without this incident. A 16-year-old with a talent for military strategy, hasn't enough life experience for more subtle political strategies and psychological games. And finally, the fact that Freys did not breach a single pact or custom while committing mass murder, adds to the whole GRRM's narrative about relativity of historical perception that he has been consistently promoting throughout ASOIAF. 

[Modesty Lannister]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

On the OP, nicely put together...Great work.

But it's only very noticeable in hindsight... same goes for some of the things said to Ned Stark.

Take for exmaple the Myrish looking glass that helped Luwin find the hidden message from Lysa who accused the Lannisters and the Queen of murdering Jon Arryn. Ned says Lysa is mad with grief and doesn't know what she's saying. But Cat defends it by saying that it took a lot of layers of secrecy to get it to them, and that Lysa is very much aware of the treasonous implications that if she were to accuse the Lannisters openly she might be killed for it. And yet, Robert himself mentions to Ned how Lysa went about accusing Lannisters publically right after Jon Arryn's death, before she stole off in the night with SR. Same message, but the actions do not add up. Why all the secrecy two months later when she accused the Lannisters publically already at court. Reason: to get Ned to agree to Robert's request to become hand and lure Ned to KL.

Ned learns from Cat how the VS dagger ended up being Tyrion's according to LF. And yet, during the Hand's Tourney, after Sandor beats Jaime, Renly remarks to LF that it's a pity Tyrion isn't there since then he'd have won even more money. Renly bet on Sandor, LF on Jaime and Renly implies Tyrion would have bet on Jaime as well. Ned is within earshot of the puzzle piece to expose LF's claims about the dagger as a lie. But it goes over his head.

Cat too is confronted with different versions as well. She has Tyrion saying how he'd never bet against his own brother. And at the Eyrie she learns that Jon Arryn wished to foster SR to Stannis (not Tywin), something she is told again at the Twins from Walder when she negeotiates the terms of the crossing.

George simply makes sure that all the clues are present to unravel the murder and assassination mysteries (just like Agatha Christie), except Cat and Ned aren't Hercule Poirot.

Spot on. On all counts. But, we have to be Miss Marples and Poirots instead.

[DarkSister1001]

Nicely written. 

@Modesty Lannister - As far as the salt & bread go, even if they weren't offered it when Cat asked for it, I'm sure there was salt at the wedding feast before the slaughter.  I don't recall if it's specifically mentioned in this feast but Jon makes a comment about "sitting below the salt" at the WF feast so I have to assume it's at all big occasions.  You know I love your work, but my soul needs them to be guilty of breaking guest right and needs them to die painfully and slowly, please don't take that away. 

I have another question to add to this.  Cat chides Lord Frey when she first meets with him to discuss the terms of crossing.  Riverrun called it's banners.  Why didn't the Frey's face some sort of punishment for not answering the call?  Why did the even have to make terms?  As bannermen to Riverrun they should have allowed Cat et al to cross to lift the siege at Riverrun and aid their liege lord.  (Plot devices aside, of course)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

34 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Nicely written. 

 

I have another question to add to this.  Cat chides Lord Frey when she first meets with him to discuss the terms of crossing.  Riverrun called it's banners.  Why didn't the Frey's face some sort of punishment for not answering the call?  Why did the even have to make terms?  As bannermen to Riverrun they should have allowed Cat et al to cross to lift the siege at Riverrun and aid their liege lord.  (Plot devices aside, of course)

Probably the same reason why the Mallisters were not there. Edmure was beaten far too quickly too summon his entire strength.

And by the time Robb had reached the Twins Tywin was the Hand of the King while Robb was the son of a traitor who had raised his banners against the Crown. Walder was not obligated to let him through.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I, on the other hand, firmly believe that this little discovery goes hand in hand with GRRM's way of writing. He is meticulous. He never writes fillers and every word counts. So, I do thank OP for pointing out to it, deliberately or not. What does this little piece of information tell us? It tells us that:

- no guest right was ever granted

- Robb's party failed to notice it

But, it also debunks the whole idea that the Freys offended the Gods with the Red Wedding by breaching the guest right. Subsequently, it debunks the idea that all the Freys will perish by the end of the saga. Furthermore, it re-emphasises how unperceptive Cat Stark was at that moment. GRRM is a good psychologist. Usually, when one is weary, suspicious and/or fearful, one misses the most obvious clues around them while having an impression of being vigilant. On a similar note, it reiterates how unexperienced Robb was, although that has been evident even without this incident. A 16-year-old with a talent for military strategy, hasn't enough life experience for more subtle political strategies and psychological games. And finally, the fact that Freys did not breach a single pact or custom while committing mass murder, adds to the whole GRRM's narrative about relativity of historical perception that he has been consistently promoting throughout ASOIAF. 

In this case it probably is a technicality imo, since you admitted that salt is used in many dishes, and would be present and used during the feast anyway. Only way to guarantee no salt was given to Robb and his people is to serve non-salted dishes and not to have any salt at any table during the feast. If the salt is eaten several hours later, it's still eaten and guest right stands until they're given a parting gift.

If the Freys were sure they did not offend the gods by keeping salt away, they'd be halooing it anywhere they'd get accused of guest breaking. Instead they make up a lie of Robb turning into a wolf and attacking them first. I've seen the same arguments made about Walder using 'mayhaps' and how it applied to the crossing game for the RW.

Furthermore, magical forces resurrected Cat to avenge them, with multiple symbolic references to the greek Furies (underworld revenge spirits), LS as a ruler of the underworld, and both Brienne's as well as Jaime's RL chapters full of references to Dante's Inferno and Brienne's two last chapters referring to the 9th circle - sin of betrayal (political, against lord/lady and guests)... and technically Brienne did betray her lady... which is why GRRM worked in Biter chewing her cheek. In Dante's Inferno, Satan's 3 heads chew on the worst betrayers - Judas, Brutus and Scipius.

Brutus and Scipius also tried to argue they were within the law of removing a tyrant when they caesared Caesar in the Senate. But Anthony's burrial speech showed that such technicalities did not make it any less of a cowardly murder, and they were chased out of Rome for it.

I would say Halfhand's speech to Jon applies here... it's not the literal vow/custom that matters, but the heart of it. Guest right can be seen as dependent of taking a separate pinch of salt together aside from the bread (and not hours later), or it can be seen as extending safety to people you invite as your guests into your home. Robb and Cat and everybody else were guests at the Twins, and no 'mayhaps' or a separate pinch of salt taken simultaneously at the time of eating the bread and butter can unguest them. If you compare it with Manderly's actions - he made sure he performed the technicalities as well as the heart of the matter. The Freys were safe under his roof. But once they were neither actual nor technical guests anymore he had them killed and worked into Frey pie. There's no way that 'well, they didn't get a separate pinch of salt' will wash in Westeros. The Freys are pretty much pariahs even in the eyes of the Lannisters. And in the end that's all that will count in the eyes of many knights, outlaws, warriors and houses to have the Freys slaughtered, even if the Freys are their allies.

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I, on the other hand, firmly believe that this little discovery goes hand in hand with GRRM's way of writing. He is meticulous. He never writes fillers and every word counts. So, I do thank OP for pointing out to it, deliberately or not. What does this little piece of information tell us? It tells us that:

- no guest right was ever granted

- Robb's party failed to notice it

But, it also debunks the whole idea that the Freys offended the Gods with the Red Wedding by breaching the guest right. Subsequently, it debunks the idea that all the Freys will perish by the end of the saga. Furthermore, it re-emphasises how unperceptive Cat Stark was at that moment. GRRM is a good psychologist. Usually, when one is weary, suspicious and/or fearful, one misses the most obvious clues around them while having an impression of being vigilant. On a similar note, it reiterates how unexperienced Robb was, although that has been evident even without this incident. A 16-year-old with a talent for military strategy, hasn't enough life experience for more subtle political strategies and psychological games. And finally, the fact that Freys did not breach a single pact or custom while committing mass murder, adds to the whole GRRM's narrative about relativity of historical perception that he has been consistently promoting throughout ASOIAF. 

I don't think anyone in Westeros would agree with you on this.  Should Walder plead to the Northern and River lords that he never gave their relatives and men guest right before his bloody betrayal they would condemn his treachery and murder as much as his trickery and take his head off just as fast with the rest of Westeros applauding.

Bear in mind that all of the characters in the story know exactly how guest right works and none of them thought that anything was amiss with what was offered.

Bread and salt: too simple staples that are symbolic of basic hospitality and the giving of which is elevated into a ritual.  I am curious as to the particular magic of salt as the symbolic offering of food once asked for to secure guest right seems the more significant and binding part of the ritual.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

That is as far as I got.

Come on, man, the book is more than ten years old now. Sure we can put some jokes in, yes? Besides, everyone here knows why Tywin, Roose and Walder conspired to kill Robb. Why not add some humour to it?

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

10 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

For the reader completely.

Aside from the fact that these are fictional characters, and Martin will have them behave the way he wants them to, guest right is a sacred trust. Way beyond the solemn nature of a betrothal. There was no reason to suspect nefarious plots when they had eaten of bread and salt. Yes there were hints, but those hints are only seen (unless you are ridiculously perceptive) on a reread.

I notice that in your OP that you said that only if Cat could go back and read what was said that she would have realized that there was a problem and their lives were in danger. That sounds an awful lot like a reread.

In a game where life and death are the stakes, there are no do-overs, no rereads, no extra lives.

Yeah, it might be just that she was too tired and struck by hatred and grief to see. Almost all the readers and surely all of the show watchers missed it too. So, all in all, it's forgiveable. As I said, I don't hold it against her. I'm just saying that, were she as sharp as she used to be before it all, she'd have seen right through it.

7 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

You put in a quote that puzzled me. When Robb asked for food that included bread and salt, the combination that grants the guest right of protection, his party got bread and cheese and butter. Note there was no mention of salt. So, it seems Robb and his party never actually ate bread and salt. Hence, they were not protected at all. That is the thing no one should have missed. Including us.

Yeah, they weren't served salt. Pending confirmation, I don't think any guest in our story is actively described as being served salt. But I'll have a look into it, if University work allows me to.

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

On the OP, nicely put together...Great work.

But it's only very noticeable in hindsight... same goes for some of the things said to Ned Stark.

Take for exmaple the Myrish looking glass that helped Luwin find the hidden message from Lysa who accused the Lannisters and the Queen of murdering Jon Arryn. Ned says Lysa is mad with grief and doesn't know what she's saying. But Cat defends it by saying that it took a lot of layers of secrecy to get it to them, and that Lysa is very much aware of the treasonous implications that if she were to accuse the Lannisters openly she might be killed for it. And yet, Robert himself mentions to Ned how Lysa went about accusing Lannisters publically right after Jon Arryn's death, before she stole off in the night with SR. Same message, but the actions do not add up. Why all the secrecy two months later when she accused the Lannisters publically already at court. Reason: to get Ned to agree to Robert's request to become hand and lure Ned to KL.

Ned learns from Cat how the VS dagger ended up being Tyrion's according to LF. And yet, during the Hand's Tourney, after Sandor beats Jaime, Renly remarks to LF that it's a pity Tyrion isn't there since then he'd have won even more money. Renly bet on Sandor, LF on Jaime and Renly implies Tyrion would have bet on Jaime as well. Ned is within earshot of the puzzle piece to expose LF's claims about the dagger as a lie. But it goes over his head.

Cat too is confronted with different versions as well. She has Tyrion saying how he'd never bet against his own brother. And at the Eyrie she learns that Jon Arryn wished to foster SR to Stannis (not Tywin), something she is told again at the Twins from Walder when she negeotiates the terms of the crossing.

George simply makes sure that all the clues are present to unravel the murder and assassination mysteries (just like Agatha Christie), except Cat and Ned aren't Hercule Poirot.

Thanks for the compliment. I agreee with you 100 percent. Actually, I might make my next thread about "Eddard, Ilyn, Maester Pycelle and Myrish looking glasses".  

3 hours ago, Modesty Lannister said:

I, on the other hand, firmly believe that this little discovery goes hand in hand with GRRM's way of writing. He is meticulous. He never writes fillers and every word counts. So, I do thank OP for pointing out to it, deliberately or not. What does this little piece of information tell us? It tells us that:

- no guest right was ever granted

- Robb's party failed to notice it

But, it also debunks the whole idea that the Freys offended the Gods with the Red Wedding by breaching the guest right. Subsequently, it debunks the idea that all the Freys will perish by the end of the saga. Furthermore, it re-emphasises how unperceptive Cat Stark was at that moment. GRRM is a good psychologist. Usually, when one is weary, suspicious and/or fearful, one misses the most obvious clues around them while having an impression of being vigilant. On a similar note, it reiterates how unexperienced Robb was, although that has been evident even without this incident. A 16-year-old with a talent for military strategy, hasn't enough life experience for more subtle political strategies and psychological games. And finally, the fact that Freys did not breach a single pact or custom while committing mass murder, adds to the whole GRRM's narrative about relativity of historical perception that he has been consistently promoting throughout ASOIAF. 

That. I agree with that 100 percent. I don't think that by not giving them salt Walder is excused in the sight of the gods, and I'm sure he isn't in the sight of (most) men, so there's that. 

3 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Nicely written. 

@Modesty Lannister - As far as the salt & bread go, even if they weren't offered it when Cat asked for it, I'm sure there was salt at the wedding feast before the slaughter.  I don't recall if it's specifically mentioned in this feast but Jon makes a comment about "sitting below the salt" at the WF feast so I have to assume it's at all big occasions.  You know I love your work, but my soul needs them to be guilty of breaking guest right and needs them to die painfully and slowly, please don't take that away. 

I have another question to add to this.  Cat chides Lord Frey when she first meets with him to discuss the terms of crossing.  Riverrun called it's banners.  Why didn't the Frey's face some sort of punishment for not answering the call?  Why did the even have to make terms?  As bannermen to Riverrun they should have allowed Cat et al to cross to lift the siege at Riverrun and aid their liege lord.  (Plot devices aside, of course)

Quote

The Late Lord Frey, Father used to call him. The man is ill-tempered, envious, and above all prideful.”

Frey is a hard man to deal with. And, in the world of ASOIAF, second place houses are a lord's biggest enemy. Tyrells and Florents, Lanisters and Reynes, Starks and Boltons, Tullys and Freys and Mallisters and Blackwoods and Brackens and etc. The Riverlands are a tough place to be politically dominant over. Hoster was good at his job.

[evita mgfs]

So, because Martin does not detail that Jaime Lannister ate bread and salt at the feast host Ned Stark throws in honor of the King’s arrival at WF, then Jaime does not violate the laws of hospitality when he pushes the son of his host from the window of the broken tower?

Jaime tells Bran to “Take my hand.”  It sure seems strange that Jaime loses that hand that Bran takes.

Martin’s exactness as a writer certainly speaks to his choice of words for Jaime’s dialogue.  Jaime could have said any number of things:  “Hold on!”  “Grab my hand!”  “Let me pull you up!”  “Use my hand!”  “Hold my hand.”  “I’ve got you – just hold on!”

But Jaime clearly says "Take my hand!"