Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Who said anything about cruelty? e1kabong is on the mark--ASOS clearly shows that Jon is carrying a lot of resentment and unresolved feelings about his place in House Stark. Not just his legitimacy, but a true desire to be Lord Eddard's heir; I specifically disagree with the assessment that the ADWD dream was a straightforward response to present circumstances, and especially disagree that it doesn't express a desire to be a Lord of Winterfell--the desire is there.

When I talk about Jon coming back changed, I don't mean he's going to be a villain, I mean he'll make choices that are more specifically selfish than the ones he was making over the course of ASOS and ADWD--that, at least for WoW, personal desire is no longer taking a backseat to duty, even with the threat of the Others looming on the other side. Qhorin and Donal Noye in his dreams are representatives of the vows he's about to slay in order for him to pursue what he wants, what he has wanted as much as he had ever wanted anything, what he has always wanted.

This is also not meant to suggest that this is the endpoint of Jon's journey, only that - like almost every other important POV - he's heading down a more morally gray path, and we'll have to wait for ADOS to see if there's redemption. As a comparison, think of Dany being on the verge of embracing "Fire and Blood" and probably leading a massive khalasar, Arya using her skills for personal vendettas, Bran possibly abusing magic for it's own sake, Tyrion's desire to punish King's Landing and his siblings for his sham of a trial, etc.

As ever I fear that we're arguing over shades [if not shadows] rather than substance.

The longing to be accepted as a Stark is unquestionably there and won't be assuaged by a "better offer" from House Targaryen. He is, as Maester Aemon reminded him a son of Winterfell and his rather dramatic rejection by his second family will inevitably drive him to seek and yes, if necessary impose recognition by his first. Winterfell of itself is not the goal and I'm reminded very much of that business with Arya predicted in the synopsis. Long before we had hints in the mummers' version we've discussed the substitution of Sansa for Arya and that would make so much sense in what appears to be Jon's likely story arc after his stabbing.

The late Lord Eddard very firmly emphasised that

"When the snows fall, and the White Winds blow.The lone Wolf dies,but the Pack Survives."

and rather than focus exclusively on Jon in this matter of Winterfell I think that the pack, the children of Winterfell will be coming together and just as old feuds are to be set aside in the wider world so too the surviving children will need to set aside old rivalries - between Arya and Sansa and more dramatically between Sansa and Jon in order to re-unite the House Stark against what's to come. It's not going to happen at the flick of a pen or keystroke but I do think that the ambiguities inherent in any return by Jon Snow are going to be more complex than a dark Jon seeking to be Lord of Winterfell.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Yes, this is very much what I've been suggesting in posts made elsewhere today. Whilst some readers have complained that the last 2 books have been boring due to 'plodding' plots, for me they've been amazing in taking many leading characters motivations in darker directions. "Winter is Coming" is a metaphor for this and of course as a supposed Stark and Guardian of the Wall, Jon is in the forefront, as will become explicitly evident in TWOW.

The last two books are full of symbolism, which I have been preaching these last few months. There are thirty chapters spread out between AFFC and ADWD that I believe are inversion chapters. They are designated with title names versus POV names starting with The Prophet and ending with The Queen's Hand. There is a wheel of time in play and all the houses are playing one big game of Cyvasse, only in the current story something has changed. Imagine someone took Westeros and flipped it over so that west is now east and the north is upside down. The Greyjoys are now the Targaryens on this wheel of time, and the Targaryens are now the Greyjoys. The religion of the Drowned God now applies to the north, because the old gods are "under water". The drowned old god powers still exist, but they are blown around like the holy spirit by the cold air, whereas before the flip the powers remained underground in the weirwoods. Anything  this power touches would be raised like the ironborn resuscitates their drowned men.

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Yes, this is very much what I've been suggesting in posts made elsewhere today. Whilst some readers have complained that the last 2 books have been boring due to 'plodding' plots, for me they've been amazing in taking many leading characters motivations in darker directions. "Winter is Coming" is a metaphor for this and of course as a supposed Stark and Guardian of the Wall, Jon is in the forefront, as will become explicitly evident in TWOW.

I agree, both about the last two books and about TWOW. It's also important to keep GRRM's "everyone's the hero of their own story" philosophy in mind, and appreciate that Jon can simultaneously make selfish and morally dubious choices, and still believe it's the best course for the realm.

Specifically, if he decides that the rules and restrictions of the Watch are only a hindrance to stopping the Others - or that the Watch itself has become too dysfunctional - he might conclude that the North needs to be united behind a Lord of Winterfell, and pursue that path ruthlessly; no more trying to slowly win over the Bowen Marshs of the world, when winter is coming. This is a path that just so happens to also fulfill long suppressed desires.

At a minimum, I think Jon isn't going to revert back to some status quo within the Watch, and I think it's all but inevitable that he violates his vows going forward... and, well, fair enough, since he was the victim of a mutiny. However, if Jon becomes a rallying point for the North, that may set up other conflicts as well, and would be particularly inconvenient to Littlefinger's plans.

[Arry'sFleas]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

At a minimum, I think Jon isn't going to revert back to some status quo within the Watch, and I think it's all but inevitable that he violates his vows going forward... and, well, fair enough, since he was the victim of a mutiny. However, if Jon becomes a rallying point for the North

Jon's future freedom from oath driven duties may depend if the words 'is watch has ended' are written in. But then if that is not the case what would be the point of the assassination plot?

[e1kabong]

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Who said anything about cruelty? e1kabong is on the mark--ASOS clearly shows that Jon is carrying a lot of resentment and unresolved feelings about his place in House Stark. Not just his legitimacy, but a true desire to be Lord Eddard's heir; I specifically disagree with the assessment that the ADWD dream was a straightforward response to present circumstances, and especially disagree that it doesn't express a desire to be a Lord of Winterfell--the desire is there.

When I talk about Jon coming back changed, I don't mean he's going to be a villain, I mean he'll make choices that are more specifically selfish than the ones he was making over the course of ASOS and ADWD--that, at least for WoW, personal desire is no longer taking a backseat to duty, even with the threat of the Others looming on the other side. Qhorin and Donal Noye in his dreams are representatives of the vows he's about to slay in order for him to pursue what he wants, what he has wanted as much as he had ever wanted anything, what he has always wanted.

This is also not meant to suggest that this is the endpoint of Jon's journey, only that - like almost every other important POV - he's heading down a more morally gray path, and we'll have to wait for ADOS to see if there's redemption. As a comparison, think of Dany being on the verge of embracing "Fire and Blood" and probably leading a massive khalasar, Arya using her skills for personal vendettas, Bran possibly abusing magic for it's own sake, Tyrion's desire to punish King's Landing and his siblings for his sham of a trial, etc.

Thanks for the support. However, I do think we're going to see Jon as being villainous. It's kind of hard to distinguish villainy in Westeros and I'm certainly not implying that he's going to go full-tilt Ramsey/Joffrey, but we know what happens when you come back from the dead. You always lose a piece of your humanity (ie - sense of self, right/wrong). It's true that Jon could be that one resurrection that's different, but that doesn't seem like GRRM's way. Honestly, at first, his actions will seem normal. I expect him to execute traitors and march on Winterfell. To the the casual outside observer, that would seem like a normal reaction, given the circumstances of his betrayal and blood ties to House Stark. I think the true test will be if Jon remains a POV character. If Jon does these things and we are blocked access to his direct stream of thoughts, it's very likely that his motivations have taken a sinister turn, even if those around him don't immediately realize it. This would probably be later revealed when he meets with someone from his past who knows "the old Jon" a great deal. Samwell, Arya, Sansa: all would be suitable candidates for the "you've changed" plot turn. 

[House Cambodia]

Completely agree e1kabong. A key is in GRRM's quote in 2013:

 

Quote

Magic can ruin things. Magic should never be the solution. Magic can be part of the problem.

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I agree, both about the last two books and about TWOW. It's also important to keep GRRM's "everyone's the hero of their own story" philosophy in mind, and appreciate that Jon can simultaneously make selfish and morally dubious choices, and still believe it's the best course for the realm.

Specifically, if he decides that the rules and restrictions of the Watch are only a hindrance to stopping the Others - or that the Watch itself has become too dysfunctional - he might conclude that the North needs to be united behind a Lord of Winterfell, and pursue that path ruthlessly; no more trying to slowly win over the Bowen Marshs of the world, when winter is coming. This is a path that just so happens to also fulfill long suppressed desires.

At a minimum, I think Jon isn't going to revert back to some status quo within the Watch, and I think it's all but inevitable that he violates his vows going forward... and, well, fair enough, since he was the victim of a mutiny. However, if Jon becomes a rallying point for the North, that may set up other conflicts as well, and would be particularly inconvenient to Littlefinger's plans.

I agree completely on this one. On the assumption that Jon is going to be truly dead and risen [as opposed to just a flesh wound] he's going to be a free agent. I don't see any lawyer-like pettifogging over his status. His second family rejected him and now he's going to do what he wants rather than what's expected of him. I don't see him turning his back on the horror from the north, but rather fighting it not as a man of the Nights Watch but as a warlord. He may not seek to be Lord of Winterfell, indeed that might even be a hindrance. Rather I see him fighting to pull together his army; his own following amongst the Watch, the Wildlings and the Northmen. A process we've already seen begin in ADwD

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I agree, both about the last two books and about TWOW. It's also important to keep GRRM's "everyone's the hero of their own story" philosophy in mind, and appreciate that Jon can simultaneously make selfish and morally dubious choices, and still believe it's the best course for the realm.

Specifically, if he decides that the rules and restrictions of the Watch are only a hindrance to stopping the Others - or that the Watch itself has become too dysfunctional - he might conclude that the North needs to be united behind a Lord of Winterfell, and pursue that path ruthlessly; no more trying to slowly win over the Bowen Marshs of the world, when winter is coming. This is a path that just so happens to also fulfill long suppressed desires.

At a minimum, I think Jon isn't going to revert back to some status quo within the Watch, and I think it's all but inevitable that he violates his vows going forward... and, well, fair enough, since he was the victim of a mutiny. However, if Jon becomes a rallying point for the North, that may set up other conflicts as well, and would be particularly inconvenient to Littlefinger's plans.

I agree completely on this one. On the assumption that Jon is going to be truly dead and risen [as opposed to just a flesh wound] he's going to be a free agent. I don't see any lawyer-like pettifogging over his status. His second family rejected him and now he's going to do what he wants rather than what's expected of him. I don't see him turning his back on the horror from the north, but rather fighting it not as a man of the Nights Watch but as a warlord. He may not seek to be Lord of Winterfell, indeed that might even be a hindrance. Rather I see him fighting to pull together his army; his own following amongst the Watch, the Wildlings and the Northmen. A process we've already seen begin in ADwD

[Black Crow]

It appears a certain other party may see it in a similar way

[Matthew.]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

He may not seek to be Lord of Winterfell, indeed that might even be a hindrance. Rather I see him fighting to pull together his army; his own following amongst the Watch, the Wildlings and the Northmen.

Perhaps, but functioning as a de facto lord (or king) of the North seems only a small step away from actually being the Lord of Winterfell, which is something he secretly desires. If conflict of the heart is to remain an important element of the story, we might infer that Jon's (theoretical) future journey will not be purely defined by external threats--eg bringing this lord or that lord into the fold.

What happens if, in pursuing admirable goals, getting a taste of his secret desire eventually becomes a problem? Is it too simple a solution to have Robb's letters pop up - like moldy parchment - and solve everything neatly? What's going to happen if Jon is gaining followers, while Littlefinger executes his grand unveiling of Sansa, a plan that probably has no place in it for Jon Snow as a Lord of Winterfell, or leader of the North?

I have no specific theory or roadmap, just a general sense that Jon's heroic image will, at least for a time, be undermined. Rallying an army and "uniting" the North may seem like a tempting solution, but GRRM has not generally written war as glorious, and he definitely hasn't presented the game of thrones as a noble pursuit. At a minimum, his path might further weaken the North, and more problematically, it might weaken and de-populate the Wall.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps, but functioning as a de facto lord (or king) of the North seems only a small step away from actually being the Lord of Winterfell, which is something he secretly desires. If conflict of the heart is to remain an important element of the story, we might infer that Jon's (theoretical) future journey will not be purely defined by external threats--eg bringing this lord or that lord into the fold.

What happens if, in pursuing admirable goals, getting a taste of his secret desire eventually becomes a problem? Is it too simple a solution to have Robb's letters pop up - like moldy parchment - and solve everything neatly? What's going to happen if Jon is gaining followers, while Littlefinger executes his grand unveiling of Sansa, a plan that probably has no place in it for Jon Snow as a Lord of Winterfell, or leader of the North?

I have no specific theory or roadmap, just a general sense that Jon's heroic image will, at least for a time, be undermined. Rallying an army and "uniting" the North may seem like a tempting solution, but GRRM has not generally written war as glorious, and he definitely hasn't presented the game of thrones as a noble pursuit. At a minimum, his path might further weaken the North, and more problematically, it might weaken and de-populate the Wall.

Well for a start he's going to have to fight the Boltons. Mummers version or no mummers version I don't see Stannis digging himself out of the whole he's dug for himself in the snow. A Jon Snow reborn is still the bastard and is still going to have to fight for what he wants and if h takes the Wildlings who have already pledged their allegiance and any personal following he may still have among the Watch [and how many of them want to stay on the Wall until they rot?] then yes, the Watch will no longer remain true and the Wall will fall.

[Melifeather]

I need to clear up some confusion on the topic of the cold winds raising the dead...as it has come to my attention that people think I am trying to promote Wolfmaid's theory as my own. This couldn't be further from the truth! The theory that I have been promoting since early February is a wheel of time-inversion theory which involves the opening of a "hinge" causing a return to where Westeros was prior to the end of the Long Night. That being said, I agree with wolfmaid's assertion that the wind is an entity, and it is my bad for failing to acknowledge her theory whenever I've posted about the wind.

The wheel of time is a constant. The same situations play out generation after generation, and the same families live out these same situations. However, when the hinge was opened it flipped Westeros like turning over a big rock. West is now east and the north is upside down. The god of the sea and goddess of the wind have been released, whereas when the hinge was closed they were trapped underground in the weirwoods. I do not know whether or not that last part is part of wolfmaid's theory. She will need to clarify for us.

Most of what I had been talking about was how the Targaryens and Greyjoys have switched places. The Greyjoys are now going after dragons in order to conquer Westeros like Aegon did of old. The Aemon was at the Wall when he died, and Bloodraven of course is in his cave, but both men could be said to live next to the sea just as the Greyjoys do. The north is the sea, the Nights Watch are "drowned men" who will rise after death as wights, stronger and harder when touched by the cold winds. The god of the sea and the goddess of the wind together are the "old gods" that the Children worship, and now that the north is upside down they are the Drowned God(s).

[Black Crow]

While I do appreciate the differences between your respective theories and we do have explicit reference in text to history repeating itself, I think that the "inversion" is a step too far and an unnecessary one. History is certainly repeating itself, but its in the descent into chaos rather than anything so "formal" [very much for lack of a better word]; the hinge said Mel is as much her place as Jon Snow's; its the means by which the magic of Ice and Fire are connected.

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While I do appreciate the differences between your respective theories and we do have explicit reference in text to history repeating itself, I think that the "inversion" is a step too far and an unnecessary one. History is certainly repeating itself, but its in the descent into chaos rather than anything so "formal" [very much for lack of a better word]; the hinge said Mel is as much her place as Jon Snow's; its the means by which the magic of Ice and Fire are connected.

I was just clarifying that what I was saying was different than wolfmaid's cold winds rising theory. I just wanted to make clear that I was not in any way trying to claim her theory as my own. I think mine is as different as night is to day, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Black Crow]

42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was just clarifying that what I was saying was different than wolfmaid's cold winds rising theory. I just wanted to make clear that I was not in any way trying to claim her theory as my own. I think mine is as different as night is to day, wouldn't you agree?

 

Absolutely. 

As I said, I disagree with your theory, but in all honesty I fail to see how it could be confused with Wolfmaid's. The two are quite different.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Absolutely. 

As I said, I disagree with your theory, but in all honesty I fail to see how it could be confused with Wolfmaid's. The two are quite different.

Thank you. That's all folks. 

[Black Crow]

Yup, me too. Good night all.

[Voice]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Absolutely. 

As I said, I disagree with your theory, but in all honesty I fail to see how it could be confused with Wolfmaid's. The two are quite different.

I agree. Wolfmaid's version made sense . . .

 

(kidding Melifeather!)  LOL

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, Voice said:

I agree. Wolfmaid's version made sense . . .

 

(kidding Melifeather!)  LOL

Exactly! lol So how could she confuse the two? 

I know my theory is way different than what anybody else is saying, so I'm completely flummoxed why anyone would say I was trying to claim her theory. Just clearing the air.

[Voice]

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Exactly! lol So how could she confuse the two? 

I know my theory is way different than what anybody else is saying, so I'm completely flummoxed why anyone would say I was trying to claim her theory. Just clearing the air.

Psh you're asking the wrong heretic. I ain't even getting involved. Last time I responded one of your grievances you quit the forum and ended up having a bunch of people's posts deleted remember?!?!! LOL

But yeah there were some differences. The cold mist stuff sounds pretty similar though.