Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Oh-hoh! A nice topic here to think about. Ned as the mystery knight is totally believable with a very good chance of being the truth. Howland too. Meera's story is about Howland including Ned's initiation into the friendship between the two. The she-wolf was an instigator but most likely not the mystery knight.

I'm still holding out hope that Martin reveals this in the future. Jamie Lannister for the win, of course, in a twisted way. Who better to bring the Starks ,vicariously through the Reeds, redemption then later set in motion the tragedy of the North? 

It all depends what GRRM wants to achieve with the story. I agree that in real time young Ned is far and away the most likely mystery knight, but its difficult to shake off the feeling that GRRM does want us to at least think its Lyanna.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

10 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Ned as the mystery knight is totally believable with a very good chance of being the truth. Howland too. Meera's story is about Howland including Ned's initiation into the friendship between the two. The she-wolf was an instigator but most likely not the mystery knight.

Yes - a good point, and one that tends to be glossed over.  One of the more interesting pieces of information provided in Meera's tale is this snapshot of when Ned and Howland met, and under what circumstances. It's remarkable that when Ned first made Howland's acquaintance, the crannogman was in some agony over this personal dilemma - wanting badly to avenge himself, but ill-equipped to compete in the joust. What we know is that he shared Ned's tent that night, he was avenged by the KotLT the next day, and he and Ned remained fast friends forevermore.

Suggestive.

 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

its difficult to shake off the feeling that GRRM does want us to at least think its Lyanna.

Also hard to shake the feeling that GRRM wants us to at least think Lyanna and Rhaegar were sexually involved. And that GRRM wanted us to at least think Cersei Lannister was behind the murder of Jon Arryn. And that he wanted us to at least think that Arya was dead, at the end of her last chapter in AGOT - and again when the Hound hit in the back of the head with his axe, outside Riverrun. And that he wants us to think Sandor Clegane is dead.  And that he wants us to think Jon Snow is dead and gone, at the end of ADWD. 

GRRM is one tricksy bird, eh?  

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

GRRM is one tricksy bird, eh?  

Exactly so, although he did at least favour us with the enigmatic "you think he's dead do you?" on the matter of young Snow, and so far as the biggest [?] mystery of them all goes I remain uneasy that R+L=J is so strongly hinted at in so many ways as to be too obvious - and especially when we have that equally enigmatic hint by GRRM that the three musketeers were standing outside the tower not because it was their duty to be there but because Rhaegar ordered them to be there - thus beginning the systematic stripping of Aerys' personal security

[superunknown5]

I read Arianne II. I don't have much to say about it other than that I enjoyed it, but since you guys are on the KotLT, let me humbly suggest a possible alternative candidate: Ashara Dayne.

I admit, this seems unlikely at first glance, but when examined more closely I think it's very plausible. There may be a clue in Arianne II she refers to Elia Sand as "Lady Lance", in regards to her skill jousting and her preference of using a lance as a weapon.

Ashara was a Dornishwoman. We know they are often trained at arms and armor unlike ladies from certain other parts of Westeros.

They are known for riding sand steeds, horses famed throughout the land. If jousting is all about riding, the quality of horse may confer a certain advantage.

Her brother was one of the greatest fighters and jousters of all time, so not only would they share a possibly genetic gift for feats of athletic combat, they may also indeed have grown up training together and against each other, likely under the same Master at Arms. I wonder who taught Arthur to fight. He must've been one hell of a teacher.

We know she was very beautiful and ladylike, but so was Lyanna, and we know she liked to fight and was "half a horse".

And there is also the curious matter of Barristan's deep love for Ashara. Barry is a man, but he is not lustful. He is a romantic. Sure Ashara was beautiful, but knowing Barry, it was just as much her honor and inner beauty that he saw and fell in love with.

If she donned the mystery knight armor and got vengeance for Howland's mistreatment, it makes perfect sense that this incredibly honorable act would have made Barry fall head over heels.

And of course, Barry himself donned the mystery knight armor on more than one occasion. Perhaps he was even in on it with her?

As far as the sigil of the laughing weirwood tree, well a lot of people seem to think this points to a Stark, and understandably so. But why is the tree "laughing"? It doesn't seem mocking. (Regardless of how paranoid old Aerys took it.) It seems playful. Northmen are often described as grim, unsmiling, harsh, curt, cold, etc. Whereas folks from Dorne are the opposite. They're sanguine and jocular and smiley and warm. I think the smile of the weirwood indicates a Dornish person under the facade. And I submit the Weirwood itself represents not the Starks, but the Reeds, who let us not forget keep the Old Gods themselves.

 

 

[Voice]

14 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Sure there are 'floor' spiders, such as trapdoor spiders.

All the references above imply ice spiders are the size of direwolves or ponies; kraken crush seafaring ships. That's a vast difference in size that defeats the connection for me.

Yup. Size matters.

 

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

What's a little interesting here is the way that they have grown in the telling. We were originally introduced to them by GRRM through Old Nan when they were described as big as hounds, in GRRM's later accounts as variously quoted they seem to have "grewed and grewed" in the telling; which is as you'd expect in oral story-telling, and its this discrepancy which makes me wonder whether there's something gone wrong in the translation to the common tongue and that they aint spiders at all but something different and that if they are capable of being ridden might the Ice walkers be riding Ice dragons.

Well, it isn't all oral history though, is it?

Ride-able Ice Spiders must start out small after all. I doubt they begin "life" fully grown.

No doubt you'll be seeing wights burst open, and explode with dozens of cute little ice spiders pouring out of their consumed husks any night now that winter is come...

 

7 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Also hard to shake the feeling that GRRM wants us to at least think Lyanna and Rhaegar were sexually involved.

Does he? I must have missed that subtle inference...

[Voice]

2 hours ago, superunknown5 said:

As far as the sigil of the laughing weirwood tree, well a lot of people seem to think this points to a Stark, and understandably so.

I would actually argue against this. Weirwoods are not avatars of the Starks. They do however represent the gods of the First Men, of which House Dayne are.

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Well, it isn't all oral history though, is it?

 

Ah but it is, because unless we look to the walkers and their "spiders" being contemporary with the Andals, even the texts are originally based on oral accounts written down by Andal septons hundreds of years afterwards. Indeed Sam grumbles about that very point in briefing Jon as to his findings.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

2 hours ago, superunknown5 said:

since you guys are on the KotLT, let me humbly suggest a possible alternative candidate: Ashara Dayne.

Another good idea. Ashara was my choice in days of yore... before I switched my vote to Ned.

[Black Crow]

Something worth bearing in mind is the actual painting of the laughing tree sigil. Once again GRRM might simply be careless as to the logistics, but ordinarily something as complex as that, yet recognisable at a distance, is going to take time, patience and skill, which might suggest the mystery knight was long pre-meditated. In all honesty though I think on balance I'm with the first option.

[Voice]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah but it is, because unless we look to the walkers and their "spiders" being contemporary with the Andals, even the texts are originally based on oral accounts written down by Andal septons hundreds of years afterwards. Indeed Sam grumbles about that very point in briefing Jon as to his findings.

True. But this brings me back to my original point that Old Nan is not the only source, unless we take her to be as old as the Annals at Castle Black and the Septons who first transcribed the myths ... which is certainly possible.

She may have even nursed Samwell. The text is far from clear on such matters.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Something worth bearing in mind is the actual painting of the laughing tree sigil. Once again GRRM might simply be careless as to the logistics, but ordinarily something as complex as that, yet recognisable at a distance, is going to take time, patience and skill, which might suggest the mystery knight was long pre-meditated. In all honesty though I think on balance I'm with the first option.

I hadn't thought about that, but certainly that would take some time. Ser Duncan the Tall had to wait, what a day or two for his shield to get painted. Unless it conveniently came from the old gods? 

[SerTarod]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I hadn't thought about that, but certainly that would take some time. Ser Duncan the Tall had to wait, what a day or two for his shield to get painted. Unless it conveniently came from the old gods? 

Nice catch.

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, SerTarod said:

Nice catch.

All credit goes to BC for catching that one! 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ser Duncan the Tall had to wait, what a day or two for his shield to get painted.

Overnight, I believe.  Same amount of time it took Brienne to get the image painted on her shield at Duskendale.

And if the only addition to the shield were the laughing face... it might have taken hardly any time at all.

[Black Crow]

28 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Overnight, I believe.  Same amount of time it took Brienne to get the image painted on her shield at Duskendale.

And if the only addition to the shield were the laughing face... it might have taken hardly any time at all.

Not necessarily, a laughing tree recognisable as such from the bleachers requires a fair degree of skill and patience. In realtime its going to take a while and a degree of pre-planning and preparation, but although its an intriguing thought I suspect that the truth is GRRM didn't think that deeply, although its always possible it was originally painted for a quite different mystery knight scenario.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Voice said:

True. But this brings me back to my original point that Old Nan is not the only source, unless we take her to be as old as the Annals at Castle Black and the Septons who first transcribed the myths ... which is certainly possible.

She may have even nursed Samwell. The text is far from clear on such matters.

Doubt its the latter, but just because one drunken septon writes down a story he was told by one bard or nurse, it doesn't mean that everybody else stops telling it.

[Arry'sFleas]

On 13/05/2016 at 5:51 PM, Voice said:

But this brings me back to my original point that Old Nan is not the only source, unless we take her to be as old as the Annals at Castle Black and the Septons who first transcribed the myths ... which is certainly possible.

Correct me if I am wrong, but i could only find 3 references to ice or white spiders:

Old Nan's stories to Bran, Sam's recollection of the tales that made him squeak as a boy and Sam's mention of the septons' account written thousands of years later.

Tales and stories do not carry the same veracity as songs, and one can argue the septons' accounts may even be tainted by the same tales which they would have heard as children.

They may well have existed as the tales need a seed, and may well yet turn up, but i suggest it is worthwhile to consider that the whitewalkers so far have appeared as anything but demons, taking the appearance of armoured soldiers, a most common sight in the land. Why would they even need an armour, if only dragonglass can break their spell?

 

I reminds me somewhat of the tale of the Night's King, about whom 'when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden'.

All the records? nope...not the records that he was a sorcerer, had a corpse bride and sacrificed to the Others. His name forbidden? not by all the Old Nans of Westeros.

 

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but i could only find 3 references to ice or white spiders:

Old Nan's stories to Bran, Sam's recollection of the tales that made him squeak as a boy and Sam's mention of the septons' account written thousands of years later.

Tales and stories do not carry the same veracity as songs, and one can argue the septons' accounts may even be tainted by the same tales which they would have heard as children.

They may well have existed as the tales need a seed, and may well yet turn up, but i suggest it is worthwhile to consider that the whitewalkers so far have appeared as anything but demons, taking the appearance of armoured soldiers, a most common sight in the land. Why would they even need an armour, if only dragonglass can break their spell?

I think that there may be an element of misunderstanding here. The fact that they wear armour does suggest a degree of vulnerability to conventional weapons and of course in the prologue to AGoT the first walker fought with Ser Waymar. I suspect therefore that they may bleed from ordinary wounds as easily as anyone else - but they only dissolve into a cold puddle if pinked by dragonglass.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

 

I reminds me somewhat of the tale of the Night's King, about whom 'when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden'.

All the records? nope...not the records that he was a sorcerer, had a corpse bride and sacrificed to the Others. His name forbidden? not by all the Old Nans of Westeros.

Always been a contradiction. It may just be simple rhetorick, but its more likely GRRM hiding something; say the Stark connection hinted at by Old Nan and perhaps also that dodgy list of Lord Commanders discovered by Sam.

[hiemal]

Not sure if this the proper place, but the idea smacks of herasy to me. What if:

Bastards really are treacherous by nature, and GRRM's repeatedly bringing up popular prejudices is meant to hint at Jon's legitimacy?

It seems likely to me that we are meant to scoff at this common "ignorance", but GRRM has said that genetics don't work the same in ASoIaF as in RL and aside from the constant drumbeat of "it is known" we also have a pretty impressive roster of bastardy bastards: Ramsey Snow (nuff said), Aurane Waters, the Blackfyres, Daemon Sand (if he is the one who talked), The Bastard of Nightsong (from a certain perspective, anyways)...

Of course we also have Robert's bastards, who seem to be stubborn to point of fault standing against those examples so admittedly it's a questionable case at best; but I thought I'd throw it out there.