So where in the heck was Trystane?

[239JMFL34109]

6 minutes ago, Clash said:

Well Trystane has to have been killed after Jaime sent the note. I'm sure Jaime would have found out quick enough when either his body or his absence was discovered by the crew. That would ptrobably narrow the window down to whatever length of time it takes a Raven to fly from KL to Sunspear. Still a couple of days minimum I would suspect but certainly not (nor would it have to be) synchronised.

 

Trystane didn't die until jaime already arrive at KL. Jaime's note also mentions sending trystane back to dorne. Also Trystane was on the same ship jaime just got off but heading away from dorne. So Jaime never found out about his death. 

[Ser Hyle]

31 minutes ago, Clash said:

Was that their intention? To kill him on the ship?

They followed him waiting for an opportunity to present itself, which it duly did. Once Myrcella was gone, would anyone really have felt they were still a danger to her? Once she had left Dorne, she was no longer Dorne's problem. There's plenty of coastline in Dorne for them to have sailed from other than Sunspear itself. They could even have got ahead of Jaime's ship if necessary.

Blackwater bay didn't look too heavily guarded in any case. In fact it looked empty apart from Jaime's ship.

They could have shown any number of different scenarios for how they got there, it wasn't really necessary.

What's Sunspear? In the show Dorne is a giant desert with one palace named "Dorne."

[Sand11751]

Trystane's killing makes no sense for all the reasons everyone's mentioned, but then I saw this post at Fansided, which actually makes it worse.  https://fansided.com/2016/04/26/game-thrones-closer-look-jaime-lannisters-letter-prince-doran/ The note Doran reads supposedly says:

"The Princess Myrcella died by poison on our return journey. I suspect Ellaria, not you, but my sister will demand war. I doubt Ellaria’s head will appease her, but it is a start, along with your neices [sic]. Your son cannot stay in King’s Landing. I am sending him back on the same ship."

So, Trystane got on the ship, which we never saw in season 5, and is now hanging out waiting to go home, just painting eyes on colored stones for Myrcella's funeral. I guess the ship is the smartest place to do this, since if Cersei saw him, all her crazy might have come out then. Still not sure why it didn't come out before...

Ok then the two SS chicks come by ship; I'm assuming they didn't walk, ride, teleport or borrow a jet pack. But now everybody knows Princess Myrcella died in Dorne, so if another Dornish ship shows up in the harbor, it shouldn't be ok. Even assuming it was, I'd hope Trystane wasn't left defenseless onboard so there were Dornish guards on the ship who are either (1) killed by these supposedly badass SS chicks or (2) in cahoots with Ellaria. On the first idea, try as they might D&D can't convince me these badasses are really badasses. The second idea begs the question of why such guards wouldn't have just killed Trystane themselves at the first chance. Were they worried golden hand Jaime would have stopped them? No, they waited for the girls to show up.

This show has dragons and shadow babies and WW - I get it; we're asked to stretch our imaginations a lot. But the showrunners really tied a Meereneese knot around this Dorne subplot and I just wish it would die because no matter how you analyze it, the SS killing Trystane in KL makes no sense. Die, Dorne, die.   

[Valetudo]

35 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

1)That was not a distraction, that was jaime's letter. she had to kill him then of the next words out of doran's mouth kill her. 

BUT that was for the audience. The audience now knows that she has dorne on her side. 

2)except that guards were not on her side last season so she could not have killed jaime.  she spent the time between season getting people on her side. Seeing Doran letting jaime go might have been the wedge she used to turn the rest of dorne against him. 

1) What would Doran saying "kill her" change if the guards are on their side? Or even better, why did they wait for the message to arrive instead of killing Doran just after getting the guards on their side?

2)That's the problem when you left things open to interpretation. You can assume that the guards were convinced to turn on Doran because of him letting Jaime go, and I can assume that she just convinced them after getting free and before Jaime and Myrcella even left. And the big problem with Jaime is that they never planed to kill him in the first place. They only focused on Myrcella.

27 minutes ago, Clash said:

1) Was that their intention? To kill him on the ship?

2) They followed him waiting for an opportunity to present itself, which it duly did. Once Myrcella was gone, would anyone really have felt they were still a danger to her? Once she had left Dorne, she was no longer Dorne's problem. There's plenty of coastline in Dorne for them to have sailed from other than Sunspear itself. They could even have got ahead of Jaime's ship if necessary.

3) Blackwater bay didn't look too heavily guarded in any case. In fact it looked empty apart from Jaime's ship.

They could have shown any number of different scenarios for how they got there, it wasn't really necessary.

1) What was their intention indeed! Just look at my previous posts in this thread.

If they wanted to kill him, kissing him goodbye like Myrcella would have been way simpler. If the crew of the ship was allied with them as some people believe, letting the crew kill him would have been more simple too. If they believed that Jaime would think that he had a part in Myrcella's murder, he would have been killed by the Lannisters. If they believed Jaime would believe in Trystane innocence and send him back, they just had to wait for his return.

2) Put yourself in Doran's place. 2 persons you just released from jail go missing just after their original target left. Isn't that a little suspicious? Remember that he has his son on that ship, so yes, her safety is still Doran's problem if he care for his son's life. The fact that he didn't see them leaving is not the problem. Anybody with a brain would have put 2 and 2 together.

3) Just another show inconsistency to explain a problem. Do you think it's logical to have an harbor just outside of the castle unguarded? No wonder Davos could have lived as a smuggler for that long if that is the case.

 

[239JMFL34109]

2 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

1) What would Doran saying "kill her" change if the guards are on their side? Or even better, why did they wait for the message to arrive instead of killing Doran just after getting the guards on their side?

2)That's the problem when you left things open to interpretation. You can assume that the guards were convinced to turn on Doran because of him letting Jaime go, and I can assume that she just convinced them after getting free and before Jaime and Myrcella even left. And the big problem with Jaime is that they never planed to kill him in the first place. They only focused on Myrcella.

1) hotah is right there he say it she is getting attacked. She didn't let the message go yet so while she got the guards she is not in the position to let everyone know she killed doran. She had her hand force by the message. I hate to say it but i am betting she wins the support of the rest of dorne (not the dayne for easter egg reasons) by giving her own version of the Fire and blood speech. 

2) The guards arrest last season not on her side. Now they let her kill the prince on her side.

people always complain about shows holding their hand too much and treating the audience like need everything explained to them. Here the didn't explain it. the guards are on her sides now after time has past proven with people's hair having changed and etc...

[Clash]

4 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

1) What was their intention indeed! Just look at my previous posts in this thread.

If they wanted to kill him, kissing him goodbye like Myrcella would have been way simpler. If the crew of the ship was allied with them as some people believe, letting the crew kill him would have been more simple too. If they believed that Jaime would think that he had a part in Myrcella's murder, he would have been killed by the Lannisters. If they believed Jaime would believe in Trystane innocence and send him back, they just had to wait for his return.

But they couldn't know what Jaime would do. He might have sent him back or he might have let him stay in KL. The opportunity to kill him might not have presented on the ship, so then they'd have to do it in KL which wouldn't be available to the crew. The best way to accomplish the objective would be to follow the ship and wait for an opportunity,

Quote

 

2) Put yourself in Doran's place. 2 persons you just released from jail go missing just after their original target left. Isn't that a little suspicious? Remember that he has his son on that ship, so yes, her safety is still Doran's problem if he care for his son's life. The fact that he didn't see them leaving is not the problem. Anybody with a brain would have put 2 and 2 together.

 

Yet he released them before Myrcella left. If he was concerned about them he would have kept them in jail longer; until she was gone for days even. So he shows no concern with having them around Myrcella in Sunspear but worries about their whereabouts after she's gone?

Quote

Just another show inconsistency to explain a problem. Do you think it's logical to have an harbor just outside of the castle unguarded? No wonder Davos could have lived as a smuggler for that long if that is the case.

They may not have even disembarked from whatever vessel brought them to KL in Blackwater Bay itself. They could have got off further down the coast and gone overland. Any defences in the bay would be aimed at threats larger than a couple of scantily clad women.They could have waited until the crew disembarked and then got on board,

[Tianzi]

51 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Doran and trystane could have died days and weeks apart. We have no reason to believe they happened at the same time.

Well, the cutting is made like it was to suggest it happened immediately one after another, they didn't even bother with a shot suggesting distance, like a ship sailing on the sea (hence the existence of this topic in the first place...). Maybe it was just poor technique.

26 minutes ago, Sand11751 said:

Trystane's killing makes no sense for all the reasons everyone's mentioned, but then I saw this post at Fansided, which actually makes it worse.  https://fansided.com/2016/04/26/game-thrones-closer-look-jaime-lannisters-letter-prince-doran/ The note Doran reads supposedly says:

"The Princess Myrcella died by poison on our return journey. I suspect Ellaria, not you, but my sister will demand war. I doubt Ellaria’s head will appease her, but it is a start, along with your neices [sic]. Your son cannot stay in King’s Landing. I am sending him back on the same ship."

I see here Jaime being compassionate/trying to prevent Cersei from going batshit, but if he really planned to convince Doran to send Ellaria's head, keeping his only son as an argument would be a better move.
 

[flare]

13 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

2) Guards arrest last season not on her side. Now they let her kill the prince on her side.

people always complain about shows holding their hand too much and treating the audience like need everything explained to them. Here the didn't explain it. the guards are on her sides now after time has past proven with people's hair having changed and etc...

How do you get the whole palace guard on your side without having  one person against the plot? People you have guarded with your life the last years / decades. People who you lived with and financed your livelihood. Actually pretty fucking nice people. Not one person batted an eye on a day where the coupe was not even planned. Just one person needs to tell Doran/Areo 

I should just accept that because the hair of some girl has grown? WTF

 

[239JMFL34109]

9 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, the cutting is made like it was to suggest it happened immediately one after another, they didn't even bother with a shot suggesting distance, like a ship sailing on the sea (hence the existence of this topic in the first place...). Maybe it was just poor technique.

I see here Jaime being compassionate/trying to prevent Cersei from going batshit, but if he really planned to convince Doran to send Ellaria's head, keeping his only son as an argument would be a better move.
 

there is literally an establishing shot of the ship sailing away for king's landing...it could be people where not paying attention...

https://youtu.be/cvPeiTNTz00?t=2m13s

Also i think jaime know cersei well enough to say that is trystane stays he dies that night.

[239JMFL34109]

11 minutes ago, flare said:

How do you get the whole palace guard on your side without having  one person against the plot? People you have guarded with your life the last years / decades. People who you lived with and financed your livelihood. Actually pretty fucking nice people. Not one person batted an eye on a day where the coupe was not even planned. Just one person needs to tell Doran/Areo 

I should just accept that because the hair of some girl has grown? WTF

 

So you think hotah was in on it too, cause there was your one guy who was more loyal to doran.

We have heard a lot on the show that the people of dorne are angry with doran cause they are all disgusted with his actions that avoided war but have made them look weak. Than Jaime sneaks in, kills some of their men, and not only do you let him go you give him what he wanted? yeah that seems like something you could uses to turn people against doran. also the fact that it was not planned means on one knew that he would be attack to tell doran or hotah. she got them on her side enough to know they would not act against her.

We know that she wants to keep his death secret from someone maybe just the lannisters because she kills the messenger. We know that message forces her hand because it is his getting the lannister message the cause her to attack. As for the hair it just shows time has passed between scenes. 

[Miley the Monstrous]

50 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

What's Sunspear? In the show Dorne is a big garden and one beach.

FTFY

[Clash]

56 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

What's Sunspear? In the show Dorne is a giant desert with one palace named "Dorne."

It's the main city in Dorne. Where most of the action takes place afaik.

[flare]

35 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

So you think hotah was in on it too, cause there was your one guy who was more loyal to doran.

We have heard a lot on the show that the people of dorne are angry with doran cause they are all disgusted with his actions that avoided war but have made them look weak. Than Jaime sneaks in, kills some of their men, and not only do you let him go you give him what he wanted? yeah that seems like something you could uses to turn people against doran. also the fact that it was not planned means on one knew that he would be attack to tell doran or hotah. she got them on her side enough to know they would not act against her.

We know that she wants to keep his death secret from someone maybe just the lannisters because she kills the messenger. We know that message forces her hand because it is his getting the lannister message the cause her to attack. As for the hair it just shows time has passed between scenes. 

I never said that Hotah was on it too. Where did you get that. My argument is that it is impossible to have that number of co-conspirators wtihout having anyone telling it. Simple impossible. Also Hotah lives with the guards. You want to tell me that he wouldn't sense that every other guard wants Dorans head on spike. Everyone in Dorne is more concerced with appearing to look strong than actually being a guard? This is just nonsense. Also it was not stated multiple times that people are angry with Doran. It was just an exposition by Ellaria last episode. 

[Ser Hyle]

6 minutes ago, Clash said:

It's the main city in Dorne. Where most of the action takes place afaik.

In the books you are correct. In the show, it's called "Dorne"

http://33hpwq10j9luq8gl43e62q4e.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/images/dorne_credits.jpg

[JonSnow4President]

3 minutes ago, Ser Hyle said:

In the books you are correct. In the show, it's called "Dorne"

http://33hpwq10j9luq8gl43e62q4e.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/images/dorne_credits.jpg

Actually, this is the Water Gardens from the books, not Sunspear.  Technicality I know, but the best kind of correct is technically correct.

[239JMFL34109]

7 minutes ago, flare said:

I never said that Hotah was on it too. Where did you get that. My argument is that it is impossible to have that number of co-conspirators wtihout having anyone telling it. Simple impossible. Also Hotah lives with the guards. You want to tell me that he wouldn't sense that every other guard wants Dorans head on spike. Everyone in Dorne is more concerced with appearing to look strong than actually being a guard? This is just nonsense. Also it was not stated multiple times that people are angry with Doran. It was just an exposition by Ellaria last episode. 

HE is the one guard who was still loyal to doran that you complained didn't exist.  I think he liked doran himself knew people were not happy with him doesn't mean he would no ellaria was going to stab him. 

Actually never said they were more concerned with look strong than being a guard. They lost faith in him as a leader because they think he is a weak leader who let their enemy sneak into dorne, kill his people,  and walks out with what came to get in the first place. 

From the first episode we meet doran we are told dorne is angry wants war and etc.. the sand snakes are loved by the people, dorne wants to go to war, the characters even drops foreshadowing toward his death "not while i rule" "how long will that be?", and etc... it is all there.

[Ser Hyle]

4 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Actually, this is the Water Gardens from the books, not Sunspear.  Technicality I know, but the best kind of correct is technically correct.

I figured they merged the Water Gardens and Sunspear. 

[Valetudo]

2 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

1) hotah is right there he say it she is getting attacked. She didn't let the message go yet so while she got the guards she is not in the position to let everyone know she killed doran. She had her hand force by the message. I hate to say it but i am betting she wins the support of the rest of dorne (not the dayne for easter egg reasons) by giving her own version of the Fire and blood speech. 

2) The guards arrest last season not on her side. Now they let her kill the prince on her side.

people always complain about shows holding their hand too much and treating the audience like need everything explained to them. Here the didn't explain it. the guards are on her sides now after time has past proven with people's hair having changed and etc...

1) first sentence: Tyene is still just behind him with a knife on her hand, ready to kill him. Doran  shouting for help wouldn't change anything, unless she had very bad reflexes. I don't understand what you're trying to say in your second sentence, sorry.

She wanted to kill Doran and convinced the guards to be on her side. What is the purpose of the message in this? Just kill him.

2)The guards that arrested them last season were still somewhat loyal to Doran. But time passed between her arrest, her release and Myrcellas departure. I can then assume that she got the guards trust during this time, just like you can assume that she got it after. So using the argument that "Killing them before they embarked was impossible because the guards were not on her side" is not really that meaningful, since we don't know for sure when or why the guards chose to switch sides.

13 minutes ago, Clash said:

But they couldn't know what Jaime would do. He might have sent him back or he might have let him stay in KL. The opportunity to kill him might not have presented on the ship, so then they'd have to do it in KL which wouldn't be available to the crew. The best way to accomplish the objective would be to follow the ship and wait for an opportunity,

Yet he released them before Myrcella left. If he was concerned about them he would have kept them in jail longer; until she was gone for days even. So he shows no concern with having them around Myrcella in Sunspear but worries about their whereabouts after she's gone?

They may not have even disembarked from whatever vessel brought them to KL in Blackwater Bay itself. They could have got off further down the coast and gone overland. Any defences in the bay would be aimed at threats larger than a couple of scantily clad women.They could have waited until the crew disembarked and then got on board,

If Jaime chose to let him go, kill him when he returns. If he chose to let him stay in KL, he's dead or imprisoned anyway. Or do you believe that Cersei and Kevan will just forgive him too? Believing that this could have been a valid option, the SS would then have to infiltrate the castle or the black cells in order to kill him. Piece of cake! If only they could have killed him before!

Doran believed that the SS were honest when he released them. Fine. Call him an optimist, but that was is right. If he were a pragmatist, he would have killed them after the first attempt. But he trusted them, he believed in second chances. They broke this trust when they disappeared moments after Myrcella's depart. Or do we also have to suppose that he was dumb too?

So they disembarked further down the coast and went overland. How did they reach the boat in the middle of water then? Did they swim? Did they use a small raw boat? Wouldn't either of these options be somewhat suspicious?

But just to be clear, have you any notion of the amount of things you just had to imagine or assume or whatever you want to call it, in order to explain one scene? If that's what you call good story telling, good for you.

30 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

there is literally an establishing shot of the ship sailing away for king's landing...it could be people where not paying attention...

https://youtu.be/cvPeiTNTz00?t=2m13s

Also i think jaime know cersei well enough to say that is trystane stays he dies that night.

A ship sailing away with it's sails lowered and stored, and with Trystane painting rocks to use  during Myrcellas funeral.

It's pretty clear that the ship is still anchored near the castle (it's in the same place than when Jaime disembarked with Myrcellas body).

You should take more attention before telling other people to take more attention.

[Clash]

24 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

She wanted to kill Doran and convinced the guards to be on her side. What is the purpose of the message in this? Just kill him.

Perhaps she needed to know Myrcella was dead before killing Doran?

Quote

If Jaime chose to let him go, kill him when he returns. If he chose to let him stay in KL, he's dead or imprisoned anyway. Or do you believe that Cersei and Kevan will just forgive him too? Believing that this could have been a valid option, the SS would then have to infiltrate the castle or the black cells in order to kill him. Piece of cake! If only they could have killed him before!

Or just waylay him if he's out on the streets. The point is not leaving this to some other players to mess up. If they don't succeed, they don't succeed. They certainly couldn't plan this to perfection. If Cersei got her hands on him, then job done I suspect.

Quote

Doran believed that the SS were honest when he released them. Fine. Call him an optimist, but that was is right. If he were a pragmatist, he would have killed them after the first attempt. But he trusted them, he believed in second chances. They broke this trust when they disappeared moments after Myrcella's depart. Or do we also have to suppose that he was dumb too?

Was it out of character for them to head out into the desert? Did he order them to stay at the Water Gardens? What trust did they break? They weren't his prisoners any more.

Quote

So they disembarked further down the coast and went overland. How did they reach the boat in the middle of water then? Did they swim? Did they use a small raw boat? Wouldn't either of these options be somewhat suspicious?

No. How many sailors would be on board whilst in port to see a swimmer? Ships in port get reprovisioned by small boats all the time.

Quote

But just to be clear, have you any notion of the amount of things you just had to imagine or assume or whatever you want to call it, in order to explain one scene? If that's what you call good story telling, good for you.

I don't. You do. You're spending an inordinate amount of time wanting it explained to your satisfaction. Every explanation requires further detail. Can you not work this stuff out for yourself?

[239JMFL34109]

32 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

1) first sentence: Tyene is still just behind him with a knife on her hand, ready to kill him. Doran  shouting for help wouldn't change anything, unless she had very bad reflexes. I don't understand what you're trying to say in your second sentence, sorry.

 

she know better than anyone all it would take is one second for someone to kill her just like her lover. 

SHe kill the messenger. She has the guard on her side but she killed the messenger who gave doran the message. why? cause she does not someone to know about doran's death. who? lannisters and many others could all be in that group maybe it is someone in dorne. 

32 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

She wanted to kill Doran and convinced the guards to be on her side. What is the purpose of the message in this? Just kill him.

It forces her hand as she was play the part of being loyal to doran till the message got there. It proves also she didn't plan to kill doran there but she had to do it then cause he found out what she did.  

 

32 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

2)The guards that arrested them last season were still somewhat loyal to Doran. But time passed between her arrest, her release and Myrcellas departure. I can then assume that she got the guards trust during this time, just like you can assume that she got it after. So using the argument that "Killing them before they embarked was impossible because the guards were not on her side" is not really that meaningful, since we don't know for sure when or why the guards chose to switch sides.

It makes sense most of the guard would not have known about doran letting jaime go until after he was already let go which why i think it happens after jaime leaves. 

32 minutes ago, Valetudo said:

 

A ship sailing away with it's sails lowered and stored, and with Trystane painting rocks to use  during Myrcellas funeral.

It's pretty clear that the ship is still anchored near the castle (it's in the same place than when Jaime disembarked with Myrcellas body).

You should take more attention before telling other people to take more attention.

I never said people should pay more attention. they can pay as much as they want. i said maybe they were not paying attention. People got pissed understandable they were not paying attention.

We know jamie was sending trystane back to dorne on the same ship. So he is no going back to king's landing. we know where he is thanks to the establishing shot showing of the same ship jaime just got off. We don't know when it happened because jaime's message to doran would take time to get to dorne and we have nothing to prove it happened at the same time. For all we know jaime has not yet sent the message to doran by the time trystane is dead. 

I thought they were just doing reefing (i am not sure if the term is correct) where you reduce you sail area. i could be wrong as i have never sail myself.