Why Jon/Arya could work in the Books. I'll explain in a quick Essay!

[Stormourne]

9 hours ago, Pixnik said:

I think you are stuck on the meaning of set up. He didnt intentionally set it up but he still set it up all the same.

This 

  "I would hope the truth would please you, Sire. Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their king's dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder."

and this 

"There are many in this hall who have lost far more than that," said Jon, "and more who have given up their lives in service to the realm. Ser Patrek should count himself fortunate."

and this 

Axell Florent smiled. "The king might say the same if he were here. Yet some provision must be made for His Grace's leal knights, surely? They have followed him so far and at such cost. And we must needs bind these wildlings to king and realm. This marriage is a good first step, but I know that it would please the queen to see the wildling princess wed as well."

Jon sighed. He was weary of explaining that Val was no true princess. No matter how often he told them, they never seemed to hear. "You are persistent, Ser Axell, I grant you that." 

and this 

For all her talk about wanting to be mistress of her seat, Selyse Baratheon seemed in no great haste to abandon the comforts of Castle Black for the shadows of the Nightfort. She kept guards, of course—four men posted at the door, two outside on the steps, two inside by the brazier. Commanding them was Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, clad in his knightly raiment of white and blue and silver, his cloak a spatter of five-pointed stars. When presented to Val, the knight sank to one knee to kiss her glove. "You are even lovelier than I was told, princess," he declared. "The queen has told me much and more of your beauty."

Lead to this 

Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?

The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin's Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore herdolls to pieces, though. The dead man's sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

"Let him go," Jon shouted. "Wun Wun, let him go."

I won't put all my eggs in one basket just yet, although it does seem Jon inadvertently caused the conflict between Wun Wun and Ser Dickhead. Either way, I'm a leal supporter of Jon Snow. He did his best, though his lack of communication skills is what lead to his downfall. He never really tried explaining how letting the Wildlings stay north of the Wall would only add more bodies to the Night King's army... I mean, that would be a pretty convincing argument. They don't have to like it, but he could have told them to except it none-the-less. And, well, deciding to march south against the Boltons is clearly oath-breaking, but I loved him for it. He did it to save FArya (does it matter that she is a fake?). All this needed to happen so that he may be free from his vows once he is resurrected.

The question remains, though, if Jon will be like Lady Stoneheart is some aspects (depending on how-long he stays dead). Because he broke his oaths in order save his little sister, will this mean that his 'need' to protect her will become much more primal, like how Lady Stoneheart has become revenge personified? Of course, he broke his oath in order to kill Ramsay and protect the Night's Watch from attack, under the pretext that become Ramsay swore to tear out his heart, he had to answer it with force.

I'm excited for WoW.

[tugela]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 8:15 AM, Pixnik said:

The whole series is based on incestuous shipping with the Targ dynasty. At first I didnt see Jon and Arya as endgame but on rereads and I got past the ick factor and see it from their eyes I can accept. 

If Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna as many believe, then he would be Arya's cousin. Marriage to first cousins would have been perfectly OK in medieval society. In fact it is legal in most of the world except some states in the US and a couple of countries.

The reason I know this is that I was looking up my family tree a while back, and found one couple in the late 1800s who were cousins, which surprised me. So I did some research on it and found out that marriage to cousins is legal in most places, and that something like 20% of the worlds population is married to a cousin. Probably the most famous married cousins would be Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. So it is not uncommon now, nor would it have been in medieval society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#/media/File:CousinMarriageWorld.svg

That means that it is perfectly reasonable for Jon and Arya to marry, if it turned out that the R+L=J theory is correct (which it pretty much has to be).

[GhostNymeria]

It's perfectly fine for Jon and Arya to marry from other people's perspective in Westeros, when and if Jon's parentage is revealed. It's not uncommon or strange in Westeros. The issue will be how Jon and Arya feel about the fact that they grew up as siblings. In the outline GRRM said this was suppose to be a struggle for them, until Jon's true parentage was revealed. If the original plan is still on, his parentage will probably be revealed before he and Arya develope feeling towards eachother, instead of after. Now, this doesn't mean they're going to be like "hey, i'm totally attracted to you and since we're not technically siblings anymore, let's f*ck, it's totally okay now". It's still going to be a emotional and moral struggle. 

[Stormourne]

9 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

It's perfectly fine for Jon and Arya to marry from other people's perspective in Westeros, when and if Jon's parentage is revealed. It's not uncommon or strange in Westeros. The issue will be how Jon and Arya feel about the fact that they grew up as siblings. In the outline GRRM said this was suppose to be a struggle for them, until Jon's true parentage was revealed. If the original plan is still on, his parentage will probably be revealed before he and Arya develope feeling towards eachother, instead of after. Now, this doesn't mean they're going to be like "hey, i'm totally attracted to you and since we're not technically siblings anymore, let's f*ck, it's totally okay now". It's still going to be a emotional and moral struggle. 

And isn't that struggle the beauty of this possible relationship? I don't think it would have worked if they had not been separated from each other and experienced the trauma they've experienced. I think it's that pain that will bring them together in the end, whether it be familial or romantic love. And that's why I think they could work in the novels. I mean, Arya has sorta died inside while Jon on the outside. They are like two sides of the same coin. I fine if they just reunite and become best buds again... but I can see how them reconnecting with each other could lead to confusion in terms of what they feel for one another. I'm curious as to how Jon's resurrection will affect him. We know that for Lady Stoneheart, revenge has consumed her. Will Jon's need to "rescue" Arya become stronger than ever? Since his last thought was of her? Who knows.

[Stormourne]

57 minutes ago, tugela said:

If Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna as many believe, then he would be Arya's cousin. Marriage to first cousins would have been perfectly OK in medieval society. In fact it is legal in most of the world except some states in the US and a couple of countries.

The reason I know this is that I was looking up my family tree a while back, and found one couple in the late 1800s who were cousins, which surprised me. So I did some research on it and found out that marriage to cousins is legal in most places, and that something like 20% of the worlds population is married to a cousin. Probably the most famous married cousins would be Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. So it is not uncommon now, nor would it have been in medieval society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#/media/File:CousinMarriageWorld.svg

That means that it is perfectly reasonable for Jon and Arya to marry, if it turned out that the R+L=J theory is correct (which it pretty much has to be).

Unless Jon and Arya marrying has some political significance, I don't really see them marrying for the sake of marrying. If Jon is a Targaryen, and when Dany invades the Seven Kingdoms (assuming she wins the Iron Throne), I could see Jon forging an alliance with her in order to protect the North. And what better way to forge an alliance than through marriage. Targaryen and Stark, two old and noble houses. Sure, people could argue why not marry Sansa then, since she's the oldest... the main reason why that wouldn't be a good idea is because she's married so many times before, people will always question her purity. And if Jon and Arya do develop feelings that are romantic, would it matter that he'd be marrying the younger sister? Dany wouldn't care, so long as she forges an alliance with the North, and her nephew.

At this point, I can't see her falling in love with anyone other than Jon (foreshadowing and whatnot). And the people who think she'll fall in love with Gendry are deluding themselves (or, that's what I tell myself to keep my fears in check, lol). The main argument I would make against Arya and Gendry is that he ultimately left her for the brotherhood, betrayed her (after that she mostly has negative thoughts about her little gang). And he has not experienced trauma like Arya or Jon. How would he be able to sympathize with Arya? Help her through the trauma that he himself can't even begin to imagine? How would such a relationship work? For Jon, at least, the tragedy they've experienced is different, yes, but still has traumatic and heartbreaking. And what my essay argues is that it is these experiences that will bring Jon and Arya together. First as siblings who have reunited, than as siblings who start developing feelings they should not for each other.

And the whole cousin thing won't make it easier for them if they do develop said feelings. They grew up as siblings, and that's not something they'll easily forget. Unless - the thought just came to me - that Jon loses his memories when he is resurrected. That could also play a part in such a relationship.

Sorry, I've babbled on to much. *Sigh* I always write to much when it comes to Arya/Jon discussions. I am their most zeal supporter, after all.

[tugela]

I am not saying they would marry. I am saying that they could marry, and there would not be an issue provided that Ned was not Jon's father.

[Stormourne]

6 minutes ago, tugela said:

I am not saying they would marry. I am saying that they could marry, and there would not be an issue provided that Ned was not Jon's father.

I think R+J=L was confirmed the moment the manuscript was leaked. Jon and Arya being tormented about their feelings until his true parentage is revealed seems like a big deal. And Dany's vision in the House of the Undying is a deal breaker. She envisioned a blue rose growing from a chink in a large wall of ice, releasing a sweet smell into the air. Jon = rose at the wall / and the smell signifies that the rose is pleasant to Dany. Which implies they probably won't be enemies.

[Pixnik]

4 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

It's perfectly fine for Jon and Arya to marry from other people's perspective in Westeros, when and if Jon's parentage is revealed. It's not uncommon or strange in Westeros. The issue will be how Jon and Arya feel about the fact that they grew up as siblings. In the outline GRRM said this was suppose to be a struggle for them, until Jon's true parentage was revealed. If the original plan is still on, his parentage will probably be revealed before he and Arya develope feeling towards eachother, instead of after. Now, this doesn't mean they're going to be like "hey, i'm totally attracted to you and since we're not technically siblings anymore, let's f*ck, it's totally okay now". It's still going to be a emotional and moral struggle. 

This is the problem. How many are going to believe Jon is a hidden prince? How many times in the books has it drilled that all bastards are without honor or liars. He has to pull something huge to get anybody below the neck to buy it. Will Dorne back him or want to kill him because he represents a dead sister? 

[Pixnik]

14 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I won't put all my eggs in one basket just yet, although it does seem Jon inadvertently caused the conflict between Wun Wun and Ser Dickhead. Either way, I'm a leal supporter of Jon Snow. He did his best, though his lack of communication skills is what lead to his downfall. He never really tried explaining how letting the Wildlings stay north of the Wall would only add more bodies to the Night King's army... I mean, that would be a pretty convincing argument. They don't have to like it, but he could have told them to except it none-the-less. And, well, deciding to march south against the Boltons is clearly oath-breaking, but I loved him for it. He did it to save FArya (does it matter that she is a fake?). All this needed to happen so that he may be free from his vows once he is resurrected.

The question remains, though, if Jon will be like Lady Stoneheart is some aspects (depending on how-long he stays dead). Because he broke his oaths in order save his little sister, will this mean that his 'need' to protect her will become much more primal, like how Lady Stoneheart has become revenge personified? Of course, he broke his oath in order to kill Ramsay and protect the Night's Watch from attack, under the pretext that become Ramsay swore to tear out his heart, he had to answer it with force.

I'm excited for WoW.

Thats why I love this series. Everybody is flawed and mistakes and they have consequences. His was just a little more painful then most

 

[GhostNymeria]

21 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

And isn't that struggle the beauty of this possible relationship? I don't think it would have worked if they had not been separated from each other and experienced the trauma they've experienced. I think it's that pain that will bring them together in the end, whether it be familial or romantic love. And that's why I think they could work in the novels. I mean, Arya has sorta died inside while Jon on the outside. They are like two sides of the same coin. I fine if they just reunite and become best buds again... but I can see how them reconnecting with each other could lead to confusion in terms of what they feel for one another. I'm curious as to how Jon's resurrection will affect him. We know that for Lady Stoneheart, revenge has consumed her. Will Jon's need to "rescue" Arya become stronger than ever? Since his last thought was of her? Who knows.

I agree with everything you said. That's how I think it could happen as well. I could see Arya developing romantic feeling for Jon as some sort of consequence of the trauma and identity crisis she's experienced. Jon would be the only person she truly would trust. 

On the other hand I think it's harder to imagine Jon, as the character we know so far, to develope romantic feeling for his "sister". But as you said, maybe him dying and resurrecting will change him enough for it to happen. And yes, I also think he will have a very strong need and obsession to "rescue" Arya when he comes back. I'm thinking the "change" will be that he'll be more "wolfish" and a little crueler to get what he wants. (Unlike in the show, which the only change is that he has become more boring than ever)

[YOVMO]

On May 11, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Pixnik said:

The whole series is based on incestuous shipping with the Targ dynasty. At first I didnt see Jon and Arya as endgame but on rereads and I got past the ick factor and see it from their eyes I can accept. 

I don't think this is going to be the case, but I always thought it would be nice if end game was total apocolypse and the new spring is the burgeoning world coming to life again populated entirely by animals..amongst those animals Ghost and Nymeria with the warged remnants of Jon and Arya.

 

Again: I am not arguing for this point as I doubt this would be the case. Still, it seems nice to me.

[YOVMO]

Would a zombie jon and faceless arya relationship even still be incest? Maybe Uncest? Faceless Uncest.

[YOVMO]

22 hours ago, tugela said:

If Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna as many believe, then he would be Arya's cousin. Marriage to first cousins would have been perfectly OK in medieval society. In fact it is legal in most of the world except some states in the US and a couple of countries.

The reason I know this is that I was looking up my family tree a while back, and found one couple in the late 1800s who were cousins, which surprised me. So I did some research on it and found out that marriage to cousins is legal in most places, and that something like 20% of the worlds population is married to a cousin. Probably the most famous married cousins would be Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. So it is not uncommon now, nor would it have been in medieval society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#/media/File:CousinMarriageWorld.svg

That means that it is perfectly reasonable for Jon and Arya to marry, if it turned out that the R+L=J theory is correct (which it pretty much has to be).

It is an odd question I think. While the blood tie of being cousins wouldn't seem to cause any problems on planetos and for most of our world even it doesn't seem it would be a big problem, there is the stranger issue of having been raised siblings. I would think that two people who were cousins by blood but barely knew one another would be a much better match than even two people with no blood ties that were raised to be brother and sister (like an adopted or foster sibling). 

Even if R+J=L and Jon and Arya are cousins and not brother and sister, their upbringing seems to make a relationship between the two insestual moreso that the blood they share.

[Darkstream]

4 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

It is an odd question I think. While the blood tie of being cousins wouldn't seem to cause any problems on planetos and for most of our world even it doesn't seem it would be a big problem, there is the stranger issue of having been raised siblings. I would think that two people who were cousins by blood but barely knew one another would be a much better match than even two people with no blood ties that were raised to be brother and sister (like an adopted or foster sibling). 

Even if R+J=L and Jon and Arya are cousins and not brother and sister, their upbringing seems to make a relationship between the two insestual moreso that the blood they share.

 

10 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Would a zombie jon and faceless arya relationship even still be incest? Maybe Uncest? Faceless Uncest.

Unfacest?

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 

Unfacest?

Would have got away with it too if it wasn't for that Unfacest couple and their direwolves. 

[MostlyMoody]

10 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

I'm thinking the "change" will be that he'll be more "wolfish" and a little crueler to get what he wants.

Kinky.

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 5:20 AM, Dawn of Fyre said:

12 hours ago, YOVMO said:

It is an odd question I think. While the blood tie of being cousins wouldn't seem to cause any problems on planetos and for most of our world even it doesn't seem it would be a big problem, there is the stranger issue of having been raised siblings. I would think that two people who were cousins by blood but barely knew one another would be a much better match than even two people with no blood ties that were raised to be brother and sister (like an adopted or foster sibling). 

Even if R+J=L and Jon and Arya are cousins and not brother and sister, their upbringing seems to make a relationship between the two insestual moreso that the blood they share.

I think R+J=L was confirmed the moment the manuscript was leaked. Jon and Arya being tormented about their feelings until his true parentage is revealed seems like a big deal. And Dany's vision in the House of the Undying is a deal breaker. She envisioned a blue rose growing from a chink in a large wall of ice, releasing a sweet smell into the air. Jon = rose at the wall / and the smell signifies that the rose is pleasant to Dany. Which implies they probably won't be enemies.

Not really. Remember that it was common for people to be raised as wards of other families. Littlefinger was raised as a ward of the Tulleys, Ned and Robert were raised as wards of Jon Arryn, hence the brotherly bond between them.

I don't think it would be an impediment. People in medieval society would not have had the same sensibilities that the modern world has.

[Lemore]

On 6/9/2016 at 1:41 PM, Joan Jett said:

I don't interpret the thoughts as romantic (except for one in ADWD, but thats just romantic undertones), but I do understand them as evidence for a strong bond between them that could potentially become romantic in the future. 

And no, the way Jon thinks of Arya is not the same way he thinks of the rest of the Stark's or even Sam. He cares the most about her so his thoughts about her are always "different" in some way. It's the same with Arya. 

Jon remembering his family in AGOT

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

Half the paragraph is spent remembering his other siblings while the other half is spent thinking of just Arya. He misses her more than the rest of them and its obvious. 

As for Jon's dying thought, I never said that it was "out of nowhere". Just the fact that he dies trying to save her and with that line on his mind is significant to me. 

So what though?, he has a favourite sibling, one who he identifies with the most, that doesn't mean he wants to fuck her, God :/

[Stormourne]

24 minutes ago, Lemore said:

So what though?, he has a favourite sibling, one who he identifies with the most, that doesn't mean he wants to fuck her, God :/

No one said he wants to fuck her. We're not even arguing that they even have romantic feelings for one another at the moment. What were saying is that the foundation for a possible relationship to develop is there. You don't have to like it, but the possibility exists. And whether or not George got rid of the whole Jon/Arya plotline from his early outline, you can't deny that since we know for fact that George created Asoiaf with them falling in love in mind, the possibility for it to still happen exists.

Being uncomfortable about it is not an argument against it...

[PirateVergo]

No it cannot work.

Jon will never see Arya as anything but his little sister, no matter that she's his cousin.The Sansa thing is already more plausible even though I still think it's dumb as fk, GRRM won't go the incest way with his protagonists and to be honest I doubt Jon Snow will end up with anyone.When you think about it there is no room for Jon Snow in the Stark House (Bran,Rickon have better claims and Jon wouldn't want to take Winterfell with Sansa and Arya alive), there's very little chance he ends up on the throne because of Aegon and Dany, so what's left for him?

No romance for Jon Snow, no land or lord title imo.