[Deleted] Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, DireGhost said: So in your scenario, which I think would be an excellent story, why did the Others not awaken for the previous 300 years of Dragons? Why did they not awaken when Aegon the Conqueror swept through most of Westeros? Aye! Beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, Aegonzo The Great said: Thanks, I like the way you're thinking as well. I've considered your theory before, but the only problem I have is: Where were the Others the last time the Targaryens invaded? Why didn't they do anything the whole time Westeros was being ruled by the Targaryens? It's the one thing that puzzles me about the Others: "Why now?" I like to think there is some connection between the Targaryens killing two Starks, like maybe the Starks had an agreement to always donate one of their sons to the Others and when the Mad King burned Brandon, that pact got broken (and Benjen tried to make things right by giving himself up), but I'm not entirely sure. It's one of the biggest questions driving me mad in this series. Why now? The 7 Kingdoms are the most unstable they probably have been since the last Long Night. They infight with each other which leaves them ripe for invasion. This is why I think the Others are still the main threat of this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, DireGhost said: Why now? The 7 Kingdoms are the most unstable they probably have been since the last Long Night. They infight with each other which leaves them ripe for invasion. This is why I think the Others are still the main threat of this story. 'The Dance' would've seemed like the time to rise up, its interesting but I don't buy it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, OuttaOldtown said: 'The Dance' would've seemed like the time to rise up, its interesting but I don't buy it.. I agree as far as being unstable, but remember there were FAR more dragons back then. If dragons are one of the things that can kill the Others. Maybe at the conclusion of the Dance would have been a good time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, DireGhost said: I agree as far as being unstable, but remember there were FAR more dragons back then. If dragons are one of the things that can kill the Others. Maybe at the conclusion of the Dance would have been a good time? I like the thought, not shooting it down. I think George is gonna make it difficult to make 'end game' predictions regarding the others even at the end of WInds.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Deleted] Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, DireGhost said: The supposed "magic" involved with the making of the Wall? Sure it is speculation but that would be why in my opinion. Right, and that's the very thing that has always made me wonder: What's everyone afraid of, then? The Wall ostensibly has magic that repels the Others. As long as the Others are stuck north of the Wall, how are they a threat to Westeros? Why do we need an army to fight them? That would be like going to a zoo dressed and armed like Jungle Jim because of those scary lions in the cages. Do people expect the Wall to fall? Why and how? Jon already brought all the known wildlings south of the Wall, so the Others aren't a threat to any other Men. It's really one of the bizarre details in the story I haven't figured out. How, exactly, are the Others a threat if the Wall is supposed to protect Westeros from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, Aegonzo The Great said: It's one of the biggest questions driving me mad in this series. The one that drives me crazy is if it assumed that there is some sort of link between the rise of the Others and the return of the Dragons, what about the 5000-8000 years between the Long Night and the arrival of Aegon the Conqueror? There were no dragons in Westeros at that time. Also, as far as we know, there were no dragons that participated in the Battle for the Dawn. So why would the Others and the dragons be linked in some way? And then, if there is no link between the two, then why are the Others back now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 It's very possible that they started to stir and awaken when the Targaryens conquered Westeros, we just don't hear about it. The earliest reports (that I can recall) of them being seen again is by Craster and Mance. I don't know how long it takes for them to become fully mobile and functional, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they awoke 300 years ago and have been slowly gaining strength, at least, enough to start appearing further south closer to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, SevasTra82 said: It's very possible that they started to stir and awaken when the Targaryens conquered Westeros, we just don't hear about it. The earliest reports (that I can recall) of them being seen again is by Craster and Mance. I don't know how long it takes for them to become fully mobile and functional, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they awoke 300 years ago and have been slowly gaining strength, at least, enough to start appearing further south closer to the wall. I agree with the slow awakening, but why because of the Targs? There were no dragons 8000 years ago that participated in that battle. I don't think the 2 are linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, Aegonzo The Great said: Right, and that's the very thing that has always made me wonder: What's everyone afraid of, then? The Wall ostensibly has magic that repels the Others. As long as the Others are stuck north of the Wall, how are they a threat to Westeros? Why do we need an army to fight them? That would be like going to a zoo dressed and armed like Jungle Jim because of those scary lions in the cages. Do people expect the Wall to fall? Why and how? Jon already brought all the known wildlings south of the Wall, so the Others aren't a threat to any other Men. It's really one of the bizarre details in the story I haven't figured out. How, exactly, are the Others a threat if the Wall is supposed to protect Westeros from them? Maybe the magic is tied to the Night's Watch. The Northern houses hold the NW in higher regard, and maybe that is why. The Northern houses knew that the NW had to be manned (possibly even a Stark has to be there) to keep the magic in place. Through the generations, the "why" of keeping the Wall manned has been lost but the fact that it needs to be has not been lost to those Northern Lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Deleted] Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, DireGhost said: The one that drives me crazy is if it assumed that there is some sort of link between the rise of the Others and the return of the Dragons, what about the 5000-8000 years between the Long Night and the arrival of Aegon the Conqueror? There were no dragons in Westeros at that time. Also, as far as we know, there were no dragons that participated in the Battle for the Dawn. So why would the Others and the dragons be linked in some way? And then, if there is no link between the two, then why are the Others back now? My thoughts exactly. The only reason I link dragons and Others is because both are magical creatures. Fire magicians have said their magic is stronger since the dragons are back, and Melisandre has said the Wall makes her magic stronger. I don't know for sure that there is a connection, but I can't come up with any other logical reason why the Others would be back now (and that in turn raises the question you and I both wonder: Where were they when the Targaryens first showed up and ruled for all those years?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 1 minute ago, DireGhost said: I agree with the slow awakening, but why because of the Targs? There were no dragons 8000 years ago that participated in that battle. I don't think the 2 are linked. Maybe the COTF/Others have their own set of prophesies that have not been revealed to us yet? Something about when dragons return to the earth then the land will spin into chaos or something? GRRM loves to drop hints in his novels...but this is one subject he's been very tight lipped about. It's infuriating lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, Aegonzo The Great said: My thoughts exactly. The only reason I link dragons and Others is because both are magical creatures. Fire magicians have said their magic is stronger since the dragons are back, and Melisandre has said the Wall makes her magic stronger. I don't know for sure that there is a connection, but I can't come up with any other logical reason why the Others would be back now (and that in turn raises the question you and I both wonder: Where were they when the Targaryens first showed up and ruled for all those years?) So what we need to be asking, what is different NOW that was not in place for the thousands of years between the Long Night and Aegon conquering Westeros? What is different between the end of the Long Night and the present time in the story? The difference is the erosion of the Night's Watch. The watchers on the Wall are at the weakest point in their history. Add that to the fact that Westeros is distracted by the civil war and it would be easy to sweep through the continent if they can just get past the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, SevasTra82 said: Maybe the COTF/Others have their own set of prophesies that have not been revealed to us yet? Something about when dragons return to the earth then the land will spin into chaos or something? GRRM loves to drop hints in his novels...but this is one subject he's been very tight lipped about. It's infuriating lol. But is it truly in more chaos than during the Dance or when Aegon took over? I don't believe so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Hey guys, 'Why now?' Damned good question. I'm still reading around and thinking it through. Theories I've come across so far: i) Prophecy - i.e. The Others, who are quite sentient non-zombies (the wights are zombies) have their own prophecies. I'm not sold on this personally. ii) The Stark connection and the fall of the Starks at Winterfell. I don't think so - Mance Rayder was gathering the Wildings to escape from The Others while Eddard was ensconced at Winterfell. iii) The one I'm currently going with - the weather. Winter is Coming. The characters in the story haven't resolved the dilemma, 'Does the winter bring the Others, or do the Others bring the winter?' I'm going with the former. This is the first time since the prehistoric Long Night that Winter is due to be so long and so cold. Putting the 3 points together, the arising of the Others after thousands of years is due to a natural climatic phenomenon. If that was all, they'd still stay north of the Wall. However the demise of the Starks and NW as protectors, and the prophesied threat of the Fire - Azor Ahai coming with dragons has set them on a path of bringing down the Wall and moving south to defeat their adversary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 My unsupported theory is Howland Reed learned the truth of the others at the Isle of the Faces prior to his arrival at the tourney, Think Bloodraven & tCotF are also aware of the truth, what this truth is I have no idea, but I think its going to be something very similar to a restoration of what Taoists refer to as Dynamic Balance.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Bloodraven is an enigma in my hypothesis. Being Targaryen he's Fire, but he's ex-NW and been working with the CoTF - Ice. I think he must ultimately be rooting for Daenerys and therefore is extremely dangerous to Bran, Jon and the Stark cause. I'm mightily relieved dear Maester Aemon's passed away - thought would be nasty to see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireGhost Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, House Cambodia said: Bloodraven is an enigma in my hypothesis. Being Targaryen he's Fire, but he's ex-NW and been working with the CoTF - Ice. I think he must ultimately be rooting for Daenerys and therefore is extremely dangerous to Bran, Jon and the Stark cause. I'm mightily relieved dear Maester Aemon's passed away - thought would be nasty to see! BR is absolutely one of the keys to unlocking everything. Once he was at the Wall he had to learn what was going on. Then he disappears with the CotF to prolong his life until another Greenseer can come along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 11 minutes ago, DireGhost said: But is it truly in more chaos than during the Dance or when Aegon took over? I don't believe so. Maybe Blood Raven ties into this somehow. He's really the best time-frame outlier for The Others returning, after all. Blood Raven is ~130 years old, and that seems to be the correct time frame for when the they started to re-appear. The more I think about it, the more BR is really the only entity that fits the timeframe for when they started to appear again. And we know BR is connected to the COTF...who potentially are the ones that created The Others to began with. It's all connected somehow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 18, 2016 Share Posted May 18, 2016 Just now, DireGhost said: BR is absolutely one of the keys to unlocking everything. Once he was at the Wall he had to learn what was going on. Then he disappears with the CotF to prolong his life until another Greenseer can come along. I know, but I have a bad feeling that once Bran pledges himself to Jon, BR will have to try to do away with him. And fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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