Are the Others really the big bad ?

[Leonardo]

1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

Do you mean prophecy? Because Azor Ahai originated in Asshai - 'he' is a wholly Essos phenomenon. However, according to the mythology accepted in Essos and, it seems Westeros, he was 'involved' in the Long Night. Thing is, just about all the characters recount the myth as if he saved the world from the Long Night, whereas a close reading of the sources appear to indicate that he caused it, hence my assertion that the world is expecting a messiah-figure whilst it's an antichrist who is coming.

An interesting theory. I do think there is much we do not know about the first Long Night, and Brandon the Builder and such. But I do think that there reasons then were much the same as now; men have grown too strong and need to be taken down a peg or fifteen. 

 

Daenerys shows no sign of her father's madness, and truly cares for people and thusly the entire human race. While I love spinning Dany goes mad theories, evidence points more to her being important to Westeros' survival. Whatever war she brings to Westeros will pale in comparison to the WOTFK and what the others can bring given enough leeway.

[House Cambodia]

29 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

Daenerys shows no sign of her father's madness, and truly cares for people and thusly the entire human race. While I love spinning Dany goes mad theories, evidence points more to her being important to Westeros' survival. Whatever war she brings to Westeros will pale in comparison to the WOTFK and what the others can bring given enough leeway.

I'm fairly confident we WILL see signs of madness/megalomania based on the clues that GRRM has given us so far. It all hinges on what many readers have termed 'the Meereenese knot'.  This is the notion that GRRM screwed up in ADWD and got bogged down with Dany wandering around Essos doing nothing, or ending up back at square one.

I certainly don't see filler and stagnation there. I see a dramatic character development. She starts of with anti-slavery zeal, a young 'mother' loving her 'children', we see how those ideals are thwarted and how she gradually comes to realise who she truly is, a murderous, megalomaniac anti-christ figure, sister of her brother Viserys and daughter of her father Aerys. It's been quite a journey!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I see more signs of Targaryen craziness in Jon than in Daenerys. So far, Jon has been the one who went all AAAAH YOU INSULTED MY FATHER IMGONNA STAB YA!

That, of course, assuming the Targaryen "madness" is a real thing.

[Leonardo]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

I'm fairly confident we WILL see signs of madness/megalomania based on the clues that GRRM has given us so far. It all hinges on what many readers have termed 'the Meereenese knot'.  This is the notion that GRRM screwed up in ADWD and got bogged down with Dany wandering around Essos doing nothing, or ending up back at square one.

I certainly don't see filler and stagnation there. I see a dramatic character development. She starts of with anti-slavery zeal, a young 'mother' loving her 'children', we see how those ideals are thwarted and how she gradually comes to realise who she truly is, a murderous, megalomaniac anti-christ figure, sister of her brother Viserys and daughter of her father Aerys. It's been quite a journey!

While I hate to feed into things I don't really believe...

 

You're missing the biggest "Dany is mad" nod in Quaithe, someone NO ONE but Dany really sees and interacts with, and comes and has a chat with her occasionally and no one else can see her there. And it's not even that, but the ease with which Dany firstly believes it's there and then actually puts some measure of stock in it. I think all the prophecies are overblown though

 

I don't think her ideals are thwarted as much as she sees the best way to her goals is power, and that it's a rocky road. She has arguably the best claim to the Iron Throne, and that's the most powerful position in the world at this time, even after a big war. Also they believe more along her lines aka not enslaving folks, she can begin to make a real difference there

 

To get back on topic with the Others awakening... I agree there is a 'why now' element to it and it's tied into the magic of the world. Given the Others nature that we know of, it's not random or hasty. Don't even get me started on the Night's King stuff that clearly alludes they haven't been just sleeping since their last loss

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Few people have seen Quaithe.

"Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power."

 

When Quaithe too was gone, Ser Jorah said, "She speaks truly, my queen . . . though I like her no more than the others."

 

 

[LordImp]

It seems like the show heads in the direction that the COTF created the Others , which makes perfect sense. Apparantly the COTF created them to " protect something " . Protect what? Themself? Have a little theory that someone ( Azor Ahai perhaps ?) created dragons and the COTF created the Others to balance the dragons. 

But something that bothers me is the Drowned god. Moqorro says that the drowned god is just a thrall to the great other. And ice is indeed frozen water. Is there a connection between the DG and the Others?

And did the Kings of winter controll the weather ? It seems so from what we hear about Brandon ice eyes. So if they did , was it because of a connection to the Others or that they where powerful greenseers who could controll winter ?

i am starting to think that the key to this upcoming conflict is that both Others and dragons must die for the world to move on. Both for a created and is unatural to this world . 

[Leonardo]

4 minutes ago, LordImp said:

It seems like the show heads in the direction that the COTF created the Others , which makes perfect sense. Apparantly the COTF created them to " protect something " . Protect what? Themself? Have a little theory that someone ( Azor Ahai perhaps ?) created dragons and the COTF created the Others to balance the dragons. 

But something that bothers me is the Drowned god. Moqorro says that the drowned god is just a thrall to the great other. And ice is indeed frozen water. Is there a connection between the DG and the Others?

And did the Kings of winter controll the weather ? It seems so from what we hear about Brandon ice eyes. So if they did , was it because of a connection to the Others or that they where powerful greenseers who could controll winter ?

i am starting to think that the key to this upcoming conflict is that both Others and dragons must die for the world to move on. Both for a created and is unatural to this world . 

Eh Dany birthing them from stone for me indicates they may be natural; there is evidence for dragons having existed before Valyria after all.

I'm not saying you're wrong though; I agree with magic maybe needing to die out for things to truly progress technologically and such to, say, our world. Then again technology can serve much the same purpose magic can; imagine taking a fully armed U.S. war helicopter back to medieval times. You'd be able to completely level Harrenhal and do an even better job than Aegon did. Maintaining that would be impossible but hey the Targaryen dragons died out...

[LordImp]

17 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

Eh Dany birthing them from stone for me indicates they may be natural; there is evidence for dragons having existed before Valyria after all.

I'm not saying you're wrong though; I agree with magic maybe needing to die out for things to truly progress technologically and such to, say, our world. Then again technology can serve much the same purpose magic can; imagine taking a fully armed U.S. war helicopter back to medieval times. You'd be able to completely level Harrenhal and do an even better job than Aegon did. Maintaining that would be impossible but hey the Targaryen dragons died out...

The eggs had turned into stone yes , but the eggs can be unatural. Have you read the astronomy of ice and fire theories ? There you will read some good points about dragons being created . The thing is that the dragons wee see today is unatural , that they where created for war. Its possible that dragons are a crossbreed between firewyrms and wyverns , as suggested in a world of ice and fire. If so the firewyrms would be natural dragons , not those Dany have. Everything with Valyria seems fishy to mee , creating dragons , blood magic etc the entire place is shrouded in dark magic IMO. 

 

[the trees have eyes]

On 18/05/2016 at 3:02 PM, House Cambodia said:

Actually it's a problem in Planatos and is at the centre of the whole story! "Winter is Coming": The imbalanced seasons is a massive problem, and a winter the lasts a generation will have the effect of wiping out most life, even without zombies. GRRM has said somewhere that this climatic problem has magical roots and the ultimate resolution will include rebalancing the seasons. It's a shame you conflate earthquakes with human-caused environmental catastrophe, indicating that you take the matter about as seriously as Westeroi with the snarks and grumpkins. You're also taking my points too literally and not seeing the metaphorical and literary nature of the story as I see it.

I'm not ruling out redemption - as I indicated above, I see the 3 surviving Stark siblings as acting like Noah and his family after the flood (not too literally!) but only after huge carnage.

Whoa, there, buddy.  I specifically stated that climate change is a problem in our world and you fire back that I don't take it seriously.  That's literally the opposite of what I said......

The Planetos seasons have been locked into the cycle of unpredictable year long seasons for as long as people can remember, thousands of years, so the idea that this technologically, politically and culturally stagnant Planetos has done something to upset the balance now doesn't have any real foundation.

The "why now" question is the big one and you can conjecture on the special Starks as much as any other theory but my specific objection is to comparing the Others / wights with a force of nature: the wights are murdered human or other former living beings that are sent to murder anything they can get their hands on and there is a guiding intelligence behind them.  You ascribe this to an instinctive response to an upset balance but that balance has been upset for thousands of years and the response is calculating not automatic.

On 18/05/2016 at 3:49 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

Where do the Others launch their attacks? They are attacking Men on THEIR land. The land north of the Wall is the last of the "Old World", the Others, CotF, giants, direwolves, the First Men, and magic in general still exist there, not so much south of the Wall. The Others are driving Man out of the land north of the Wall. The Wall is the boundry between these worlds. They even went so far, in the very prologue of the series, to let one Man live and travel back south of the Wall as a warning: "Keep out of our land, or we will slaughter you just like we did these other 2."

The zombies are actually perfect soldiers. Utterly without fear, completely immune to pain and fatigue, terrifying in their one-mindedness to accomplish their goals. The problem, of course, is it seems it's not easy to make new Others, so the Others are amassing an army the only way they know how. Who says zombies are evil? They are soldiers, they have a purpose, and they serve that purpose exceedingly well.

I do not buy the story of the Long Night. I have no doubt it happened, but I do severely doubt it happened the way Men said it did. Of course in retelling history, whoever is telling the story is going to make themselves the sympathetic characters in it. For all we know, the Men were the agressors last time, and before they realized how deep they were in, suddenly they became the hunted. It's the classic story of a bully getting punched in the mouth then going crying to mommy. I don't know for sure this is what happened, but I'm willing to bet the Others didn't just show up and start attacking without a good reason. Same thing goes to the prophecy.

Try to imagine this scenario, but from the Other's side: What if the Others are greenseers like Bran (which seems entirely possible) and they have their OWN prophecy of a terrible silver haired demon riding on the back of three huge fire breathing lizards that rain death and destruction from the sky. Suddenly, they sensed their prophecy is coming true, and they are working to amass an army to protect themselves for when that silver haired demon inevitably comes for them. To make this army, they have to kill Men, but it's a small price to pay for their own survival. I mean, what are Men good for, anyway? They are just parasites, taking from the land and giving nothing back, fighting their petty wars and killing each other, full of disease, greed, and bloodlust, and they were the agressors that forced your ancestors to fight the hugely destructive War For The Preservation.

There are many perfectly reasonable explanations for why the Others act the way they do. Remember, as GRRM himself said (paraphrasing) "The villain to your side is the hero to the other side."

But men have been on "their land" for thousands of years without repercussions.  The giants are being slaughtered as well so it's not some human-Other pact here that has been broken.  We see horses and bears in their thrall.  Anything living seems fair game.  There is more going on than naughty humanity being reined in for its transgressions.  You are also overplaying Gared: Rangers have been disappearing for a while without any warning before The Old Bear sends Royce out with Will and Gared, the wildlings and giants are fighting and losing in the meantime and he is not a warning just a survivor like the wildlings Bran encounters in the Wolfswood later on.

You can try and see things from the Others pov of course but it seems contrarian to argue that humanity are the problem - is that really what you think the message of the story is, a parable for the locustlike destruction of mankind? in the meantime you have to wonder why the Others were ok with several hundred years of Targaryen rule in Westeros with an abundance of dragons, including Good Queen Alysane flying up to The Wall for a bit of sightseeing but suddenly start slaughtering people before the red comet turns up, before Dany hatches any dragons and while she is a youg girl in Pentos / out on the Dothraki Sea half a world away from the Others backyard.  Maybe there is no connection here at all.

On 18/05/2016 at 5:09 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

Let me ask you a question: How do you envision the endgame going? Jon rallies the North, defeats the Boltons, takes back Winterfell, and then.... Does... What, exactly? Marches north of the Wall? Sits and have some vindaloo while he waits for the Others to figure out how to bring down the Wall?

I think if the Others wanted to cross the Wall, they would have done it already. Why the delay? It's not cold enough yet? But in Hardhome, we saw the Others bring the cold with them.

Ok, so anyway, let's say the Others breach the Wall, start taking over Westeros, turning everyone into zombies, Jon's forces get pushed back, all seems lost... Then Dany comes swooping in with her dragons and saves the day? Come on, if that's what they are building up to, I will feel like I wasted my time on this story. That's been told hundreds of times already (hero shows up in the nick of time and has the perfect weapon to beat the bad guys), and I don't think GRRM would have bothered to write this story if he planned to end it on one of the biggest cliches of all time.

No, I have faith in GRRM to weave a more nuanced, complex plot than that where the reader can see both sides of the story and doesn't really know who to support. He hinted as much already with his comments about grey characters and heroes and villains being subjective.

But the Wall isn't a garden fence, it is a powerful magical barrier, one of the hinges of the world, so getting past it is a big deal not a sunday stroll.  The delay is story construction, it happens the way GRRM wants it to play out.  We know Mance was looking for the Horn of winter to bring it down so there's a big chekhovian gun in the mix.  And we know the Others have been picking off rangers and left wights mear the Wall to be taken back by the NW so they could kill Mormont and other officers, both acts to weaken the NW.  So they are working on it.

I will feel bad for you if you think you have wasted any time on this wonderful story but this belief that Martin must turn every expectation on its head, that every charcter's role and identity needs to be subverted can really go too far.  We have no idea how GRRM will handle Dany arriving in Westeros or the conflict with the Others but the build up does seem to groom Dany and Jon for command and the idea that Jon will go team Other to lead the force that has been slaughtering his brothers, the very force that he has been building a defence against, to combat evil Dany falls pretty flat to me.  He plays with tropes and he will surprise us but the Others being a problem for everyone to deal with seems fairly nailed down: cue Stannis, Northmen and Wildilngs in an alliance as a precursor for a larger alliance later on and Dany's vision of defeating an army encased in Ice on the Trident.

Yes, there are people who root for the Lannisters or Littlefinger.  Human motivations are complex, people face difficult decisions and make bad choices, sometimes terrible ones (Theon, Jaime) but the point is that, as Jon realises, even men like the Weeper might be needed in facing the Other / Undead threat not that House Other might be a useful ally in the game of thrones against Dany.  The Others are not picking and choosing which humans to ally with to oppose Dany, they are killing whoever they can.

On 18/05/2016 at 5:33 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

Right, and that's the very thing that has always made me wonder: What's everyone afraid of, then? The Wall ostensibly has magic that repels the Others. As long as the Others are stuck north of the Wall, how are they a threat to Westeros? Why do we need an army to fight them? That would be like going to a zoo dressed and armed like Jungle Jim because of those scary lions in the cages.

Do people expect the Wall to fall? Why and how? Jon already brought all the known wildlings south of the Wall, so the Others aren't a threat to any other Men. It's really one of the bizarre details in the story I haven't figured out. How, exactly, are the Others a threat if the Wall is supposed to protect Westeros from them?

Well it depends on whether you think they are a red herring or not.  We assume they will get south somehow and I posted up above about the Horn of Winter.

On 18/05/2016 at 7:04 PM, SevasTra82 said:

I've always felt both AA and the Last Hero were just legends and almost mythical beings and that time has made them into something more then they really where (which is usually the case with legendary people).

It's not like GRRM to write in such an obvious "chosen one" fantasy cliche/trope.  It goes against his very way of thinking.  GRRM loves stories, folktales, lore, and likes to build his world full of mystery.  He's also said he enjoys keeping things ambiguous on purpose (like Syrio's fate) to give the reader something to think about.

With that being said, I don't think we'll ever know the truth behind the original AA and/or The Last Hero.  Nor do I think GRRM will ever make a character an obvious incarnation of one of them.  It will always remain up to the reader to decide what they believe is right...and that, IMO, is what makes GRRM and ASOIAF so great.

I agree with this.  TPTWP, AA reborn, TSTMTW are all expectations people have that will likely confuse them them as to what should happen while what is happening unfolds.  Jon, Dany and Bran all seem to have been given strong magical connections and plot build up to suggest they will have the largest parts to play.  But I certainly wouldn't go looking for the "Chosen One", nor for that matter for one of these characters to turn into the big bad (that people claim GRRM won't do).

On 18/05/2016 at 9:28 PM, Vastet said:

"They mutilated two Nights Watch.  The other one managed to escape/was allowed to escape. Sparing him didn't come into it. Sparing equals mercy and there's been none of that in 7,000 pages so far."

You have no evidence they didn't spare him, only conjecture.

Gared and Royce stayed back hidden while Will slipped forward and climbed a tree to get a better look.  Royce then walked forward into plain sight much to Will's disbelief.  Royce gets butchered and his wightified corpse ambushes Will when Will descends much later.  It's extremely likely that Gared watched Royce's death from hiding before running for his life.  There is no evidence the Others knew he was there or that they spared him.

On 18/05/2016 at 11:18 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

The Others were right there. If they wanted him dead, he would have been dead faster than he could take another breath.

There is really no other way to view it than they spared him and purposely let him live, probably so he could go back south of the Wall and tell people what he saw, essentially warning them to stay out of the north.

But this is not what we are shown in the text.  Gared stays back and though the Others undoubtedly know someone is there why should they know how many?  Only Royce shows himself and dies.  You can argue that they knew Will was there but didn't fancy chopping a tree down so left zombie-Royce to take him when he eventually came down but it's perfectly possible that Gared sneaks away without being discovered.

The bolded part is just interpretation and I think you have some confirmation bias as you are arguing that the Others are warning men to stay out of their lands.  But this is something we never see or hear from any wildling or NW ranger and in fact they much prefer to kill everything they can get their hands on and raise them as undead to serve them.

On 21/05/2016 at 3:48 AM, House Cambodia said:

They were already on the move when the comet showed up - Waymar was done in by them in the prologue to book 1. My suspicion is that they 'activated' when Daenerys was born - they are marching to save the world from Daenerys, Azor Ahai, the antichrist.

Okkkkkkk.  So why is Dany the exiled Targaryen princess the Demon child, the one with 666 tattood on her skull?  Because it would be subversive and cool to take a compassionate character who longs for home and family and protecting people and turn her into a murderous monster?  And turn the zombies into the saviours?  Right......

On 21/05/2016 at 7:45 AM, Leonardo said:

The humans are extinguishing the old races; the COTF, the giants, they're all dying off. The Others seem to reproduce extremely slowly and I think it's obvious they are fighting for survival; their moves scream of desperation. Why not destroy Mance's army and take them all as wights, future soldiers? I don't know that they even could. I think their main strength is winter and the cold, but that an organized and smart king like Mance was a real threat to their existence and could have ended them. This is their last chance for survival I think

But the text tells us the exact opposite so why ignore it?  The wildlings are the ones who are fleeing south in desparation.  Mance tells Jon that neither he with a united wildling force nor even the giants can stand against them, that he is the first king beyond the wall to come south in a desparate bid to seek refuge behind the Wall rather than to raid or conquer.  This is the wildlings last chance for survival and they know it.  Surely it's obvious who is up agaisnt it at Hardhome.

On 21/05/2016 at 9:05 AM, House Cambodia said:

I'm fairly confident we WILL see signs of madness/megalomania based on the clues that GRRM has given us so far. It all hinges on what many readers have termed 'the Meereenese knot'.  This is the notion that GRRM screwed up in ADWD and got bogged down with Dany wandering around Essos doing nothing, or ending up back at square one.

I certainly don't see filler and stagnation there. I see a dramatic character development. She starts of with anti-slavery zeal, a young 'mother' loving her 'children', we see how those ideals are thwarted and how she gradually comes to realise who she truly is, a murderous, megalomaniac anti-christ figure, sister of her brother Viserys and daughter of her father Aerys. It's been quite a journey!

Except everything about her arc is how she rejected the cruelty of Viserys and identifies with Rhaegar who everyone from Barristan to Jorah praise to the heavens while telling her how she reminds them of him.  Everything about her arc points the other way to her becoming another Aerys, hell even an anti-Christ in your view.  Maybe you got a bit worked up there.

On 21/05/2016 at 9:16 AM, Leonardo said:

While I hate to feed into things I don't really believe...

You're missing the biggest "Dany is mad" nod in Quaithe, someone NO ONE but Dany really sees and interacts with, and comes and has a chat with her occasionally and no one else can see her there. And it's not even that, but the ease with which Dany firstly believes it's there and then actually puts some measure of stock in it. I think all the prophecies are overblown though

< snip >

In a world where magic exists and Bran can talk to Theon through weirwoods it's not a big deal for a mysterious shadowbinder form Asshai to be able to reach Dany on the shadow equivalent of the weirnet.

[Vastet]

"Gared and Royce stayed back hidden while Will slipped forward and climbed a tree to get a better look.  Royce then walked forward into plain sight much to Will's disbelief.  Royce gets butchered and his wightified corpse ambushes Will when Will descends much later.  It's extremely likely that Gared watched Royce's death from hiding before running for his life.  There is no evidence the Others knew he was there or that they spared him."

And there's no evidence they didn't know he was there and didn't spare him.

[YOVMO]

On May 11, 2016 at 6:17 PM, LordImp said:

Something i see a lot of at this forum is " defeating the Others" . Bloodraven is teaching Bran to defeat the Others , Dany has dragons to defeat the Others , Jon will be ressurected to defeat the Others. Bran , Jon , Tyrion , Dany and almost everyone will unite to defeat the Others. But are the Others the big bad of the entire series?

What i like about this series is that its not straight up good vs evil , its grey. A good person can do bad things and a bad person good things. Thats why i dont like the idea of the Others being the big bad , that they are this supernatural evil that everyone must defeat together. In a series like this where good vs evil is not the main theme , wouldent it make more sense if some of the characters actually allies with the Others or it will be a war between North( Stark , Others) and South( Targaryen, dragons) . Im not saying that the Others are good , but i expect a twist about the Others. 

The Others have been built up the entire series as the big bad , so i think something will happen and the we will have a very different view on the Others. For example the Others are linked to the Starks , Bran will lead the Others or that both Others and dragons must be destroyed for the world to continue. 

what do you think? Are the Others the true big bad of this series or will there be a twist and they will turn out to be not so bad anyway? 

I tend to agree with you. I don't think good and evil are the right way to look at it. 

 

Dating all the way back to the stronghold of valyria there has been a binary set up between the power of ice and the power of fire and I think this is what is playing out. So much is made of this. There is ice magic and fire magic and they have their champions. Some of the fire magic champions are obvious like dragons and Targs (or dragon lords in general) and some not so obvious (though not really hidden) like worshippers of R'Holler. They are opposed to ice magic champions like the walkers, like the faceless men (remember, they start as slaves of the dragon lords and have no love for fire) and the warlocks --The Other (in the sense of the opposite of R'holler) as well as the great other. 

Are the walkers evil? I suppose it depends on which side you are on. If you follow the many faced gods, are a blue lipped warlock or have a Weirwood growing through your head north of the wall probably not. However, if you are a dragon or a dragon lord or a priest of a fire diety then you might be put off by an ice zombie 

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

n a world where magic exists and Bran can talk to Theon through weirwoods it's not a big deal for a mysterious shadowbinder form Asshai to be able to reach Dany on the shadow equivalent of the weirnet.

exactly right. While we don't just want to pull the "its magic stupid" card every time we come to a snag in plot, we are talking about a world that has an internal logic where long distance communication is not just possible but is, at least wrt to significant characters, not uncommon.

[Vastet]

Unless the COTF and/or Bloodraven are the real power behind the Others, but can't control them, it makes no sense that there would be a barrier to the cave which Others and their minions cannot cross.

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

but suddenly start slaughtering people before the red comet turns up,

first let me say that your entire comment is just pure gold. Well done.

 

You hit on a huge issue for me here.

Ok, leaving aside the causal connections, if any, and what came first and when .... 

 

at some point in time there were dragons (valyria and early Westeros after the conquest). Those dragons grew smaller and smaller. Common wisdom says it was because they were kept in the dragon pit, but we known from Rhaegal and Viserion that dragons kept in captivity do not have a problem growing.

So at one point there was dragons and then there were no dragons until Dany. In that time is seems like there was no magic to the point of a lot of what was taken for granted was now just stories to scare children.

Then you have a bleeding star. You have pyromancers having unheard of success making the substance. You have dragons being born and blood magic rituals working. All of a sudden red priests can do resurrections (when thoros talks about how he brings beric back to life it seems he did what all red priests do during funeral ceremonies only some magic happened), the powers of the warlocks of qarth are growing stronger, the wight walkers and the wights are attacking. 

What we know for sure is that at one point there was magic in the world and then it was gone from the world and now it is back.

It seems to me that most people are asking how it came back which is, imo, the wrong question. The right question is how it left in the first place.

Is it tied into the changing of the seasons and therefore waxes and wanes organically? Was  there some force behind getting rid of it? How did it happen and why isn't it working any more. If we find out what brought magic back then great, we know something cool. However, only by knowing what made it go away is there a serious bit of information on how to fight it.

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Vastet said:

Unless the COTF and/or Bloodraven are the real power behind the Others, but can't control them, it makes no sense that there would be a barrier to the cave which Others and their minions cannot cross.

Not necessarily true. King Robert was able to control the realm but he still had a kingsguard so that he couldn't be accessed. That is one way in could make sense.

Another is that they are on the same side, the side of a nihilistic apocalypse by ice as opposed to the fire and heat of the living, but also antagonistic to one another...like any two kingdoms who make an uneasy alliance to take on a common enemy.

It could be that Bloodraven dislikes the great other but is using the others and their wights to his own end and doesn't really want to deal with them in person the way Tywin feels about The Mountain.

It could also be that Bloodraven isn't the real power behind the others, but that the others have something on blood raven. Maybe they were antagonistic for a long time, hence the shields, but then somehow things changed and the others got the upper hand.

We could also say that while Bloodraven and the COTF are behind the others maybe the wights aren't so easy to control as lesser entities. 

 

This is just off the top of my head. I am not saying that you are wrong to think it is possible that the shield points to an antagonistic relationship, but there are plenty of internally cohesive ways that that shield could be parlayed while leaving an alliance between Bloodraven/COTF and the Others in tact.

[Vastet]

"Not necessarily true. King Robert was able to control the realm but he still had a kingsguard so that he couldn't be accessed. That is one way in could make sense."

Which implicitly implies that the COTF and/or Bloodraven has no control over their own forces.

"Another is that they are on the same side, the side of a nihilistic apocalypse by ice as opposed to the fire and heat of the living, but also antagonistic to one another...like any two kingdoms who make an uneasy alliance to take on a common enemy."

That is possible.

"It could be that Bloodraven dislikes the great other but is using the others and their wights to his own end and doesn't really want to deal with them in person the way Tywin feels about The Mountain."

Also possible.

"It could also be that Bloodraven isn't the real power behind the others, but that the others have something on blood raven. Maybe they were antagonistic for a long time, hence the shields, but then somehow things changed and the others got the upper hand."

A bit too complex a plot element to wait this long. That would be poor writing.

"We could also say that while Bloodraven and the COTF are behind the others maybe the wights aren't so easy to control as lesser entities. "

No. If that were the case then the Others would be vulnerable to their own army.

[Im no Ser]

On 5/18/2016 at 0:25 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

the only problem I have is: Where were the Others the last time the Targaryens invaded? Why didn't they do anything the whole time Westeros was being ruled by the Targaryens? It's the one thing that puzzles me about the Others: "Why now?" 

The WW start to be seen by humanity again shortly after Dany and Jon are born ( Jon and Dany are some combination of AA/TPTWP/TSTMTW, and presumably have additional, less flattering names in COTF/WW tradition. The WW (possibly with the COTF) are preparing for their own apocalyptic prophecy, where they're the potential victims.

 

Jon born: 283

Dany born: 284

Mance leaves NW: ~285-288

Mance learns the WW are a threat at some point after he leaves the watch but prior to the beginning of AGOT  (before the comet or the birth of Dany's dragons), and sufficiently far in advance to unify a very disparate group of people who have a strong mistrust of central authority. Add in the WW taking some time to move their plans along and I think the time line linking their increased activity to the birth of a prophecied existential threat is there.

 

[Firefae]

If the COTF made the Others, than I wonder who/what is reanimating Coldhands? I always thought the COTF/Bloodraven were reanimating hime but if they are also reanimating the Others than I suppose Coldhands would also have the blue eyes.

Or he could be an entirely different kind of undead/wight ofcourse. But that would make no sense for me because why would they make the Others a race with a different language and all instead making them the 'type' of wight Coldhands is?

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Vastet said:

"Not necessarily true. King Robert was able to control the realm but he still had a kingsguard so that he couldn't be accessed. That is one way in could make sense."

Which implicitly implies that the COTF and/or Bloodraven has no control over their own forces.

"Another is that they are on the same side, the side of a nihilistic apocalypse by ice as opposed to the fire and heat of the living, but also antagonistic to one another...like any two kingdoms who make an uneasy alliance to take on a common enemy."

That is possible.

"It could be that Bloodraven dislikes the great other but is using the others and their wights to his own end and doesn't really want to deal with them in person the way Tywin feels about The Mountain."

Also possible.

"It could also be that Bloodraven isn't the real power behind the others, but that the others have something on blood raven. Maybe they were antagonistic for a long time, hence the shields, but then somehow things changed and the others got the upper hand."

A bit too complex a plot element to wait this long. That would be poor writing.

"We could also say that while Bloodraven and the COTF are behind the others maybe the wights aren't so easy to control as lesser entities. "

No. If that were the case then the Others would be vulnerable to their own army.
 

I don't mean to support any of these ideas though..I just meant to say that saying it makes "no sense" is wrong because it took me all of 3 minutes to come up with this many ideas...even if some wouldn't pan out. Give me 2 hours and no work tomorrow and I could probably flesh a couple out and link them into a prophecy 

[Vastet]

I said

"Unless the COTF and/or Bloodraven are the real power behind the Others, but can't control them, it makes no sense that there would be a barrier to the cave which Others and their minions cannot cross."

Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently specific. I assumed the context of my reply would be obvious. I'll spell it out more clearly to show none of your arguments invalidates my position, by rewording it.

If the COTF and/or Bloodraven are the real power behind the Others, it makes no sense that there would be a barrier to the cave which Others and their minions cannot cross; unless they can't control them and the Others are just as dangerous to the COTF and/or Bloodraven as they are to the rest of Westeros.