Are the Others really the big bad ?

[Kyll.Ing.]

On 13.5.2016 at 0:53 PM, John Doe said:

But from what? Humans don't seem to be that much of a threat to them. 

Well, if the tales of the Long Night are to be believed, humans with obsidian managed to push the others back from brink of world domination, all the way to the Frostfangs. Obsidian is one hell of a game breaker when fighting the Others. For all we know, they're terrified of the prospect of it happening again.

I can sort of understand the Others laughing as they killed Waymar Royce too. All they've heard about the humans in black are stories of the great defeat under the Long Night. Then, one of them shows up, draws his sword, and attacks. Imagine their relief when it turns out his blade is neither obsidian nor Valyrian steel. For the Others, killing a man of the Night's Watch might be just as heroic as killing an Other is for the Night's Watch.

 

But yeah, I can clearly see where the OP is coming from. We have seen very, very little of the Others so far. There are brief encounters dominated by the panic of the POV character. Garrett and Sam are fleeing, fearing for their lives, and have very little context to interpret their situation.

By far the most info we've heard about the Others is assumptions. Melisandre is a religious fanatic, whose statements on the Others are totally dominated by the religious indoctrine she's been through. Old Nan is passing on bedtime stories, which have passed down the generations for eight thousand years - try playing a game of telephone for eight minutes and see how quickly information is distorted if passed orally. The writings of the Night's Watch are in a similar situation: Everything written down is thousands of years old, and still written down thousands of years after the events of the Long Night, not to mention the information purge around the time of the 13th Lord Commander.

What we do know, though, is tales of similar nature from other franchises. The orcs of Mordor. The Tyrannids of 40k. The Zombies from every zombie movie ever. The Others appear to have a lot in common with those, and as such we're very prone to extrapolate and make assumptions. The Orcs come from far away, under the command of a dark lord, to kill humans and lay a shadow over the land. The Others come from far away, some sort of dark lord is implied to be involved, ergo the part about killing humans and laying a shadow over the land must be true too, right?

For all I care, the series doesn't need a big bad. We're heaping praise on the series so far, and yet it hasn't featured an overarching big bad plot. There are many small bads, but ASoIaF doesn't really need a big bad to succeed. If anything, the Iron Throne is the big bad of the series, since the power associated with it is what initiates most of the great tragedies we've seen. The Others lurk in the background, and for me, they might as well stay there.

[LordPathera]

Nothing as yet indicates that they're not the true antagonists of the whole story.

From the start there have been two central conflicts with multiple POVs and story threads:

The Game of Thrones: Multiple Noble Houses and factions competing for power and survival. Lots of War, Politics, Intrigue and Conflicts of morals and interests fly around to decide who gets to sit their rump on the world's most uncomfortable char. A char so uncomfortable that it cuts you and at least one king died from how uncomfortable it was.

Winter is Coming: For reasons yet to be explained, the Others are appearing after thousands of years. Last time they were around, they waged a war of genocide involving dead people, dead animals and maybe even ice dragons. Their motivations aren't clear, but friendly and non-hostile are the least appropriate words to describe their intentions thus far.

However, the story early on hints that the Winter conflict is the greatest threat to Westeros from Mormont's speech to Jon and the prologue where the first thing that the reader sees is the Others killing Night's Watchmen after apparently butchering a group of wildlings and enjoying it.

Furthermore, Mormont again laments how the Night's Watch has forgotten that they were meant to guard the realm from the Others and not Wildlings. Something set in iron by how devastated the Watchmen are in their first real battle with the Others with Sam killing an Other by sheer luck with a weapon that was only rediscovered by chance. And when the Night's Watch calls for help, only Stannis is convinced of the danger and comes to their aid. And the wildlings were only trying to invade the Wall to get away from the Others in the first place.

I'll admit, the Winter conflict isn't forefront and has been slowly building up for 5 books whereas the Game of Thrones has been rocking the boat for a long while. But perhaps this is the point. The point is to illustrate how vain and proud the people of Westeros have become to where they ignore the pleas for help and the signs of Winter's coming. Too busy murdering and back-stabbing each other to where most of them will be blind-sided when Winter finally reaches their mighty castles.

Then it will be truly clear to both the characters and the readers that Winter is the true antagonist of the story. Everything else was just a distraction and a shadow on the wall cast by small fools.

[LordImp]

 

- A song of ice and fire . Targaryens are fire and then there is some ice family too , Stark most likely

- We dont know how the story about the Last hero

- If R+L = J is true , i dont think the point about it will be that Jon is the heir to the throne . The important about it will most likely be his blood. Blood of the drsgons and blood of the Others ?

- There must always be a Stark at Winterfell , why?

- Winter is coming . Could be a warning and indicate that Stark knows the threats of the Others. But it could also be a warning that the Starks are coming , maybe ancient Starks controlled the winter?

- Brandon Ice eyes arrived at Wolfs den ( was that the place?) with a Snow storm. Another hint that Starks controlled the winter .

- Winterfell. Could be that the winter ended there. But fell could also be that something started . Perhaps winter started there. Also the Snow storm Stannis is caught comes from south not North. Winterfell is sending out snow?

- The Others can do stuff with ice , GRRM said that himself. The Wall is made of ice. So it makes sense that the Others had some part in it.

- Starks are more tolerable to cold than other guys. Just like Targaryens are more tolerable to Heat.

- Ned Stark dreamt of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks.

- Azor Ahai is the saviour of the world , thats something the red priests claim and can we trust the red priests? For all we know Azor Ahai will destroy the world with fire.

- We dont know whats the motives of BR and COTF.

 

IMO there are some hints that indicates that the Starks are somehow connected to the Others. And we have also just seen the Others from peoples POV , we dont know their story or motives. It is something more to the Others than just mindless ice monsters.  

[DireGhost]

3 hours ago, LordImp said:

- Starks are more tolerable to cold than other guys. Just like Targaryens are more tolerable to Heat. 

The Targs who died at Summerhall disagree

[John Doe]

5 hours ago, LordImp said:

- Starks are more tolerable to cold than other guys.

lol no they aren't. 

[Ser Gareth]

I think they're the big bad.  I wasn't sure before the show but now I am.  No doubt they have their motives but ultimately their slaughtering of Royce in the Prologue was pretty gleeful.

So whilst the existentialism of evilness (and whether it even exists) can be debated in reality to mankind the Others are definitely the big bad hell bent on wiping them out, regardless of motive.

To put it into context if you find an ant's nest in your bricks and mortar, you wipe the nest out.  Is that an evil act?  Most would say no where as the ants would (if they had that level of reasoning) think it as some kind of genocide and definitely believe the perpetrator to be evil to the core.  The Others may just be protecting what they believe to be theirs by right and may simply view the humans as ants.

[the trees have eyes]

12 hours ago, Arya Warrior Queen said:

I agree, I think Bran will lead the white walkers against Daenerys and her dragons.  Jon being both ice and fire will bring peace in the end, maybe.  I don't believe the others are solely bad and I believe we will see that soon.  Maybe Bran will even get an ice dragon since he can't walk and the 3 eyed raven told him he would fly.  I don't really care what's going on in Kings landing.  I'm bored of all their politics.  I do want to see what the faceless men have to do with all of this.  If I'm not mistaken the people of bravos have a history with dragons and they don't like them, so maybe they will join the North.  Dany is all about being the savior and the breaker of chains but I just get a vibe that she's the big bad in this series.  Like she's a false savior.  People only follow her because of her dragons and the fact that she doesn't seem to burn. Dany will probably take kings landing and then she will attack the north. There will be a huge battle between dragons and white walkers.  Jon will somehow be caught in the middle of all this since he's ice and fire, but he will ultimately choose the north because he loves the stark's. It may not play out like this but that's how I'd like to see it go down.  

But why would Dany attack the north??  Why (and how) would Bran, who has specifically been saved and guided to defend mankind against some threat from the Land of Always Winter take over leadership of that threat to make war on other humans? Aren't Dany and her dragons a force to be used agasint the Others rather than the other way around?

Something in readers' expectations or understanding of story-telling has changed dramatically in the last 20 years.  No character can truly be good or heroic and no story can truly be as it seems without every character being subverted or a huge surprise being sprung that changes the whole direction of the story and the part the characters play.  The Sixth Sense or Breaking Bad, 24 or Homeland all play along with this but its very much a tv format with the hidden agenda, the plot twist, the shocking reveal or even the cliffhanger ending playing out on screen.  GRRM is of course a screenwriter as well as author and uses all this extensively and I'm all for the heroes or heroines being more gritty and realistic and their impact being less godlike, I'm all for the shocking reveals if done well like Lysa Arryn's revelations to Sansa, the plot twists of LF's betrayal of Ned or the Red Wedding and so on.  But at some point, when you're 5 out of 7 books into his 25 years in the writing magnum opus, you have to accept who some of the characters are and what they stand for and that whatever complexities there may be to this mysterious race that sends zombies to slaughter any human being they can get their hands on they are not the good guys or misunderstood environmentalists trying to restore some balance.

8 hours ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

Well, if the tales of the Long Night are to be believed, humans with obsidian managed to push the others back from brink of world domination, all the way to the Frostfangs. Obsidian is one hell of a game breaker when fighting the Others. For all we know, they're terrified of the prospect of it happening again.

I can sort of understand the Others laughing as they killed Waymar Royce too. All they've heard about the humans in black are stories of the great defeat under the Long Night. Then, one of them shows up, draws his sword, and attacks. Imagine their relief when it turns out his blade is neither obsidian nor Valyrian steel. For the Others, killing a man of the Night's Watch might be just as heroic as killing an Other is for the Night's Watch.

 

But yeah, I can clearly see where the OP is coming from. We have seen very, very little of the Others so far. There are brief encounters dominated by the panic of the POV character. Garrett and Sam are fleeing, fearing for their lives, and have very little context to interpret their situation.

By far the most info we've heard about the Others is assumptions. Melisandre is a religious fanatic, whose statements on the Others are totally dominated by the religious indoctrine she's been through. Old Nan is passing on bedtime stories, which have passed down the generations for eight thousand years - try playing a game of telephone for eight minutes and see how quickly information is distorted if passed orally. The writings of the Night's Watch are in a similar situation: Everything written down is thousands of years old, and still written down thousands of years after the events of the Long Night, not to mention the information purge around the time of the 13th Lord Commander.

What we do know, though, is tales of similar nature from other franchises. The orcs of Mordor. The Tyrannids of 40k. The Zombies from every zombie movie ever. The Others appear to have a lot in common with those, and as such we're very prone to extrapolate and make assumptions. The Orcs come from far away, under the command of a dark lord, to kill humans and lay a shadow over the land. The Others come from far away, some sort of dark lord is implied to be involved, ergo the part about killing humans and laying a shadow over the land must be true too, right?

For all I care, the series doesn't need a big bad. We're heaping praise on the series so far, and yet it hasn't featured an overarching big bad plot. There are many small bads, but ASoIaF doesn't really need a big bad to succeed. If anything, the Iron Throne is the big bad of the series, since the power associated with it is what initiates most of the great tragedies we've seen. The Others lurk in the background, and for me, they might as well stay there.

First, Waymar Royce fights an Other one on one in what seems to be a duel or at least a parody of a duel.  You might say the Other is taking the measure of Waymar Royce or that it's some kind of test for both of them.  At any rate when the Other wins or Royce loses - his blade shatters and he is blinded by the shards - the rest of the Others surround him and hack him to death, laughing all the while.  So they show him no fear or respect at all.  It's meant to be a sinister and somewhat horrifying scene.

Let's also bear in mind that Royce is here with two seasoned rangers precisely because too many rangers have been lost in the Haunted Forest.  The scene is put here, in the very prologue to the series, to show us, the readers, how those rangers are being lost, though the Watch itself remains unaware until The Fist of the First Men.  Also bear in mind that Will observes a party of dead wildlings and their mysterious deaths around their campfire appear to be explained in just the same way as Royce's, ambush and slaughter by the Others.  Oh and to complete the horror of the prologue when Will finally descends from the tree he is strangled by Royce's zombie.

People these are not the good guys!  Whatever motivation and society or rationality GRRM will impart to them they have an urge or instinct to kill and revive the corpses of humans as their slaves.

Second, we don't just have Mel's religious beliefs or stories from Old Nan and the Nights Watch archives that most people dismiss as fairytales.  We have the experience of thousands of wildlings fleeing south in terror, we have Mance's warning that "first they kill you then they send your dead against you. Not even the giants can stand against them" [sic], we have the Fist of the First Men and the flight through the Haunted Forest including Sam's killing of an Other, we have Tormund recounting to Jon how his son died in the night and rose a wight and how you can't fight a white mist or the cold.  Now you can dismiss all of this if you want and say it's just assumptions, that the wildlings are wrong and that the Others have nothing to do with killing people, raising their corpses as zombies and sending those corpses against people but you have to ignore the evidence in the books, assume ALL of the wildlings are wrong for there are no dissenting voices telling another story, or assume GRRM has been deliberately misdirecting us since the prologue to the first book.  That doesn't strike me as terribly likely.

Third, yes the Others are in the background but they have been moving towards the main stage in ADWD and I expect them to be a major part of TWOW, though still mysterious and enigmatic to a degree.  Without the Others we have no Wall, no Nights Watch, no Bran / Jon story lines and probably no TPTWP / LH / AA myths or impact on characters in the story and back story to Robert's rebellion.  So they are in the background, sure, but their impact although indirect is huge on the story and it looks to be about to get a lot more direct than just for the Wildlings / NW.  Personally I'm really looking forward to that though I get that not everyone is.

[LordImp]

On 16. mai 2016 at 3:57 PM, DireGhost said:

The Targs who died at Summerhall disagree

More tolerable , not immune. 

[Cragen]

On ‎11‎.‎05‎.‎2016‎. at 1:01 AM, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

There is no such thing as inherent evil. The others are the prototypical villians and most readers don´t question it because we´re used to it from other novels and movies. In the real world enemies are dehumanized to justify killing them and it´s always wrong, I don´t think asoiaf is any different. GRRM is a realistic writer, even if it´s fantasy of scifi.
I believe they will turn out not so different from humans, with the good and the bad, they propably have very good reasons to do what they do too. Maybe they even are human, at least they seem to be able to procreate with them, wich should already be a hint that they´re not actually "the other", but just different.

That doesn´t mean they won´t be defeated and maybe even extinguished, with all the prophecies coming true in a way, the great war for the dawn we´ve been anticipating. But I believe there will be a reveal that will make us feel sad and bitter about it, with all our heroes turining out to be genocidal mass murderes, all be it out of ignorance.

Long story short, I´d say there´s no way in hell the others are evil. What reason do we really have to believe that? Some sketchy ancient prophecy and the word of fanatics is all we have, and when was that ever right.

I think you are right. In the end it will not be important are they good or bad(I don't think they are any of that), what is important is human perception of Others and now perception of Other is that they are enemy of humanity. For the humans, Others reason for attack is not so important, they are enemy who need to be defeated and that's it.

[dustette]

There's a pretty awesome theory about the 'nature and purpose' of the Others, in case you haven't read it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

It basically says the Starks have the Others' blood and the peace agreement between Men and the Others forms part of the balance between ice and fire. Men violated this pact and broke the balance so the Others are moving south. According to this theory it will end with Jon re-establishing the balance by defeating, among other things, Dany and her dragons. 

[b00gieman]

Like you I don't buy the fact that the Other's are the big bad.  The Wheel of Time story I present first is shown to relay to reader that the story has already played itself out.  It is meant to show you exactly where the concept originated in ASOIAF.

 

Potential Spoilers Below

 

TWOT: How the Trollocs and Myrddraal were created

The Dark One's greatest need was for soldiers.Before the war, his scientists set about combining living human and animal genetic material to create the ultimate warrior, something that was powerful and fierce in battle, fast, hard to kill, and intelligent enough to fight well and take orders.They used naturally aggressive animals such as boars, bears, wolves, goats, wildcats, rams, and eagles in combination with human stock to produce this soldier.  The resulting man-beasts each with face and characteristics of the particular animal from which he was crafted, were called Trollocs."

“The Trolloc was and is certainly large and powerful. Standing eight to ten feet in height, with the body of an overlarge, extremely muscular man, they were stronger than either the human or animal part of their heritage and almost as fast as a horse.Vicious by nature, they manifested plenty of ferocity, killing for no other reason than the pure pleasure of it. And their size and strength made them extremely difficult to kill.

However, as an ultimate fighting machine the creature was initially a failure. Trollocs simply did not have the crucial discipline, or the ability to take orders, that characterizes an efficient soldier.Instead, they had the instincts and drives of animals combined with the worst human characteristics and avery limited (by human standards) level of intelligence. They could perform only comparatively simple tasks, and they had extremely deceitful and unstable personalties. As soldiers they were usually unable or unwilling to follow orders unless driven by fear. Even then, if the Trollocs were more afraid of the foe than of the commanders that drove them, they often turned and ran, sometimes trampling or killing those commanders in the process.

The men and women who first faced these creatures were terrified. Their towering coarse-haired bulky forms loomed over any human, while intelligent human eyes glared evilly out from faces that often bore horns or tusks, and bestial muzzles full of gnashing teeth, or snapping sharp beaks. Some even had the hind legs of the animal they resembled, with hooves or claws in place of feet, though almost all had humanlike hands with thick, heavy nails—the better to carry their deadly weapons. And if they lacked a soldier’s true discipline, sheer numbers made up for a great deal.

Their lust for killing made it very difficult for their commanders to take live prisoners, or to use Trollocs in situations that required them to distinguish between friend and foe. It was easier to let the beast-men run free, killing—and often eating—whomever they found, than to use them where any restraint or discrimination was required. Trollocs were omnivorous, but preferred meat: animal, human, or even Trolloc—it did not matter.

Shadowsworn researchers struggled to find a way to make use of the Trollocs’ few assets. There had to be a way to motivate and control these killing machines for the benefit of the Great Lord. Ironically, it was the Trollocs themselves that provided the solution, by way of their throwback offspring: the Myrddraal.”

“Trollocs do not always breed true; instead they sometimes produce throwbacks to either the animal or the human side of their genetics. The throwbacks to the animal half die, but the throwbacks to the human side usually survive, though corrupted by the evil of their original makers, and are called Myrddraal.

Also known as Shadowmen, Halfmen, Lurks, Fetches, Fades, and Neverborn, the Myrddraal resemble men much more closely than do their Trolloc parents in size, appearance, and level of intelligence.  Though their names are always in the Trolloc tongue, they are nonetheless vastly different from either human or Trolloc, for the darkness twists them. With tall, muscular, coldly handsome bodies, each of the Myrddraal is as like the others as if poured from the same mold. They move with sinuous grace beyond the capability of any human, and strike with the speed of a serpent. Their skin, instead of being pink brown, black, or even golden, is the dead fishbelly white of a slug found under a rock, while the blood that runs beneath it is corrosive, and black as the Lord they serve. Black hair, lacking all hint of human gloss or texture, covers only their heads, leaving their pale faces bare.

The most chilling difference between humans and Myrddraal is in their faces, so like a human face but for the complete lack of eyes. Not even a slight indentation mars the cruel smooth planes of Myrddraal faces to mark where eyes should be, yet these creatures can see like eagles in brightest sunlight or darkest shadow. Thus were they also called “the Eyeless.”

Sight without eyes is not their only inhuman ability—they can also vanish wherever there are shadows, and travel far distances by stepping into any area of shadow, only to suddenly appear elsewhere, in a shadow far away. Even Aginor, who made the Trollocs and thus, indirectly, the Myrddraal,was not able to discover how they could use shadow to transport themselves.

Possibly the manner of their creation causes them to exist only partly in this world, for mirrors reflect nothing but a misty form where a Myrddraal stands, and their cloaks always hang motionless from their shoulders, no matter how fierce the gale around them, as if the wind of this world dares not touch them.Their only known weakness is a fear of running water. Whenever possible they avoid crossing or traveling on any kind of stream, river, or channel. Only the greatest need can force them to overcome this reluctance. Their fear will not save one who is a direct target for the Shadowman, but often stops any more casual pursuit.

Perhaps their most potent weapon is their eyeless gaze. The stare from one of those cold, merciless faces causes paralyzing fear. Even the most courageous warrior has been known to cower beneath a Shadowman’s glare.

It was the Myrddraals’ ability to cause fear that helped solve the Trolloc problem. Even Trollocs were (and are) terrified of Myrddraal, and the Halfmen were quite capable of taking and following orders. So it was that the Trollocs were salvaged as soldiers, with the Myrddraal as their commanders. The Halfmen drove them into battle and controlled them there with fear.

In time it was discovered that a Myrddraal could link with a number of Trollocs, completely overriding their bestial nature and taking control of their minds and wills, to create a deadly, well-disciplined fighting force almost as effective as was originally intended. Unfortunately, the Myrddraal was then the weak link. If it was killed, the Trollocs sharing the link died with it.

Together Trollocs and Myrddraal made a fearsome foe. Organized in fighting units, called fists, of between one and two hundred Trollocs, usually under the command of a Myrddraal, they swept down on many unsuspecting regions, wreaking destruction on anything that stood before them. To a population new to war, the Trolloc armies seemed the personification of the Dark One himself.

While it is certain they wielded more deadly weapons in the Age of Legends, in the present day Trollocs make their own weapons and armor, crude and unfinished compared to the products of human armorers, but quite deadly. They wear no helmets because of the difficulty in crafting adequate protection for the wide variety of misshapen bestial faces. Some Trollocs demonstrate individual preferences through tattoos, carved bone adornments, and the way they wear their hair.”

“Outside of the military unit of the fist, Trollocs are divided into tribelike bands. The known tribes include the Ahf’frait, Al’ghoi, Bhansheen, Dhjin’nen, Ghar’ghael, Ghob’hlin, Gho’hlem, Ghraem’lar, Ko’bal, Kno’mon, Dha’vol, and the Dhai’mon. They are the only constructs from the War of the Shadow known to have developed a social structure and tribal system.

As in the Age of Legends, only male Trollocs fight or hunt. Female are cloistered, serving as little more than breeding machines. Fortunately female Trollocs enjoy being pregnant. Trollocs can inter-breed with humans, but apparently prefer humans as food. In any case even if the human mother survives to give birth, the resulting offspring are usually stillborn, and the few born live do not survive long.”

“Although Myrddraal are the offspring of Trollocs, they bear little similarity to them, other than having Trolloc names. So far as is known all Myrddraal are male, probably sterile due to their hybrid nature, and completely lacking in individualistic expression, such as ornamentation or variations in armor or clothing. Where Trollocs have a vile and violent sense of humor, Myrddraal have none. The Shadowmen prefer a comparatively solitary existence and are seldom seen in large groups, avoiding all purely social interaction. They usually hold themselves somewhat apart from the Trollocs they command. Unlike Trollocs, they are capable of working alone with great stealth and cunning to achieve an ordered objective. They are also harder to kill than Trollocs. Even when mortally wounded they do not die completely until the setting of the sun.

Their weapons, armor, and fighting style are much more sophisticated than that of their parents. Instead of crude chain mail and leather they wear black articulated plate designed in multiple overlapping strips over black gambeson and breeches, which gives maximum protection and freedom of movement while enhancing their serpentlike demeanor. A black cloak with deep cowl is worn over the armor and often covers the sword—their primary weapon—as well.

Myrddraal swords are very specialized weapons.Unlike cruel Trolloc blades, hammered out from any type of usable metal, these blades are only made at one place in all the world, a gray-roofed forge on the slopes of Shayol Ghul at Thakan’dar, mere yards away from the entrance to the Pit of Doom itself.No mortal smith crafts such foul blades. Only shadow-forgers, animated man-shaped beings apparently hacked from the mountain stone, can work the deadly steel. Though not truly alive, they perform their only task with great skill. Each black shadow-blade is carefully fashioned, quenched in the ink-dark, tainted streams of Shayol Ghul, and seasoned with a human soul.

The smallest wound from any of these corrupted blades brings death to the victim; the wounds fester and will not heal without the aid of the One Power. With such a weapon, little skill is needed, yet the Halfmen are agile fighters and would be formidable foes armed with even plain steel. The black blades make (and made) them almost invincible to the common soldier. But their weapons do wear out, after a time, and must be replaced, and the demand for Myrddraal swords is (and was) not always matched by the availability of materials or live prisoners.”

 

ASOIAF: How I believe the Others and Wightswere created 

 

As my theory has always said you take what has happened in TWOT and use it and throw in a 180 degree difference at the key juncture to throw off those who might make the connection.

 

I believe that when the First Men first encountered the Children of the Forest they weren’t enemies. But as the First Men began cutting down Weirwood trees that became the straw that broke the camels back.  The COTF probably tried to reason with them but the First Men didn’t back down and continued cutting down the weirwoods for building material and clearings for their homes.  That is when the war began.  I believe that the real story of what happened next was lost to time.  Fortunately we have a handy dandy time traveller named Bran who will show us the true story.  I believe that men being bigger and stronger gave them an advantage so the COTF had a great need for soldiers that could do what they could not.  I believe it was then that they used their version of blood magic and created warriors that could stand against the First Men where they couldn’t. 

 

 Where in TWOT the Dark One’s scientists used humans and animals to create the Trollocs I believed the COTF did something similar.  They used human skinchangers to create their armies; men who could control animals.  Unlike the Trollocs in TWOT the Others were a success.  They were intelligent and took orders and were deadly in the fight against men.  A byproduct of them being skinchangers was that they could telepathically link with the fallen dead; whether human or animal; and add them to their numbers the way a warg could link with a live animal.  Being created in the north they also had an affinity with ice; though the COTF could never figure out why.  They had the ability to form blades sharper than steel with their very will.  There numbers were small when compared to men and they couldn’t reproduce.  This is 180 degree opposite from the Trollocs who seemed to breed like rabbits.  Though we are told that their voices are said to sound like the cracking of ice; I believe it to be the that of the Old Tongue just like it was the language of the COTF and the First Men.  The COTF had to have a way to communicate with them and since they spoke the Old Tongue I believe the same will be true with the Others.

 

The First Men were horrified when they faced these creatures in battle as their most experienced fighters were struck down like green squires fighting full-fledged knights.  The Others were superior swordsmen in every way; being faster and stronger.  The appeared like ghosts emerging from nowhere.  To me this is similar to the Myrddraal using shadows to move from one location to another as if by magic.  The fact that they leave no prints to mark their passage seems to say they may be able to use shadows like Myrddraal.  Another theory I think more credible is that they use the “wolf dream” to move about freely.  I believe that they are able to shift between the real world and the “wolf dream” in the flesh like Perrin Aybara.  Being able to enter the “wolf dream” in this manner would account for them seeming to be in one place and then another without leaving any footprints.  With them also came the cold.  Their swords were so cold that they shattered the swords of men when they were used in battle against them.  Where the Myrddraal swords were black the Others swords were just the opposite and appear white.  Their reflective armor shifted color with their every step blending into the environment providing excellent camouflage. This is similar to the color-shifting cloaks worn by Warders in TWOT.  Like in TWOT the eyes set the Myrddraal apart from humans as they had none.  The eyes of the Others set them apart from men in that their eyes are described as “blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.” The skin of both the Myrddraal and the Others is described similarly.  Myrddraal flesh is said to look like the dead fish belly white of a slug found under a rock.  The Others’ flesh is described as being pale as the moon or milk.

 

Everything was going in favor of the COTF until one day the Others just up and disappeared from the battlefield.  Neither the COTF nor the First Men could say why or knew where they went.  I believe that since the Others were intelligent beings they discovered that they were being used like pawns and didn’t think it their fight so they left the fight between the COTF and the First Men.  This is when I believe that “The Pact” was struck and a peace was made.  Both sides feared total destruction.  The First Men at the hands of the Others and the COTF because of the absence of them.  When the Andals came and the peace was broken I believe that the COTF tried again to recruit the Others this time in the “wolf dream” but they refused to take part as they felt a connection to men much more than that to the COTF. 

 

It is then that using their magic the COTF brought about the Long Night and it was then that the first hero set out to find allies in their fight against them. When all seemed lost it was then that the Others decided to step in.  They teamed with the First Men and banished their creators the COTF to a territory that existed between where "The Wall" currently stands and that of the Land of Always Winter where they reside.  The Wall itself was created by the Others using their ability to manipulate and create with ice. When asked if he knows what substance an Other sword is made from Martin answered, “Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can’t imagine and make substances of it.”  It was they who I believe gave the first hero or Azor Ahai Lightbringer; the red sword of heroes.  If you have been keeping up with my theory you know that I believe that Lightbringer is currently calledDawn. The Others also helped to infuse spells within the walls of the structures that they helped to create to bar the COTF from interfering with the realms of men. Thus another “Pact” was established in the time that coincides with Bran the Builder. 

 

I also believe that the Others go into a hibernation like state where they are totally cutoff from the world as we know it.  The COTF used this to their advantage. They used time to do their work for them.  Over the millennia men forgot the truth of the past.  The COTF introduced stories in the form of visions to men; making themselves out to be the salvation of man. They also made the Others out to be the enemy and even started giving men dragonglass arrowheads and daggers to combat this enemy when they awaked again; making enemies of allies.

 

In TWOT we know that the Myrddraal’s only known weakness is a fear of running water and crossing it.  We also know that a Myrddraal or Trollocs will only do this in a situation of great need.  This brings me to the question of why the Other/Night’s King in the TV show seemed to allow Jon Snow to escape when he could have sent Wights in to tip their boat and kill them.  This to me is just a nod to the lore in TWOT.   I am also curious to know if an Other is killed who controls a group of wights will they die like the Trollocs linked with a dead Myrddraal will.  I believe that this will also prove true.  We also see in the TV show that a group of 13 Others appear in the distance.  When one of them, the Night's King, the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, approaches an altar and takes the baby into his arms. He touches the baby on the cheek and apparently transforms him into an Other.  In TWOT there is something called the "13 X 13 trick" where 13 Myrddraal combined with 13 Dreadlords can turn anyone capable of using the One Power, against his/her will, to the Dark One. Is this ASOIAF's version of the "13 X 13 trick"? The 180 degree change IMO between the Myrddraal and the Others is that you knew the Myrddraal were the bad guys from the onset of the story.  I believe the Others will be proven not to be when all is said and done.

[Cragen]

19 minutes ago, dustette said:

There's a pretty awesome theory about the 'nature and purpose' of the Others, in case you haven't read it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

It basically says the Starks have the Others' blood and the peace agreement between Men and the Others forms part of the balance between ice and fire. Men violated this pact and broke the balance so the Others are moving south. According to this theory it will end with Jon re-establishing the balance by defeating, among other things, Dany and her dragons. 

It's against humans nature, when in history of human kind some nation or tribe said your right to attack use we understand why you doing so. Some human to take side with aliens(in this case Others) against other human is impossible. What is possible? Humans using aliens(others) against there enemies.

[Cragen]

Do we know how much Others are there?

[Clegane'sPup]

46 minutes ago, Cragen said:

Do we know how much Others are there?

I don't.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I think it will come down more to LF and Varys to be honest with you than the Others.

[Falcon2908]

The big bad is humanity 

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Yes, Humanity has been fighting pointless wars over meaningless political squabbles and revenge against other houses and ignoring the real problem. The theme of this whole series is gorgetting the unimportant problems and coming together to fight the real problems.

[RoamingRonin]

On May 12, 2016 at 7:41 PM, John Doe said:

 Twist: The Others are running away from an army of evil ice spiders. 

I lost it. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

Most readers are human. Thus, all things being equal, the reader will cheer for the human characters, unless given explicit reason. Martin thus far has done nothing to displace that default assumption, so having the Others not be the Big Bad would be bad writing - he's left himself too little time to pivot.

"Humans are the real baddies" doesn't work, since it would be an arse-pull that contradicts the first five volumes. If Martin tried it now, you'd still have readers cheering for the humans anyway.

[[Deleted]]

On 5/16/2016 at 11:16 PM, John Doe said:

lol no they aren't. 

Ned Stark at least seemed to be. There was a Cat chapter in the first book where Ned is standing naked in front of an open window at night while Cat is in bed bundled up and still shivering. We don't know if Cat was just a weak southerner and Ned's ability to withstand the cold was nothing out of the ordinary for any northerner, but it at least is some anecdotal evidence.