Sansa Stark marriage to a Lannister

[Tianzi]

2 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said:

succession is messy in westeros. A Major theme of the works is the inherent problems with the idea of noble inheiritance, Kings Blood, Purity of a bloodline Etc. Strictly speaking of Riverrun, Emmon Frey is Lord of Riverrun now.   Emmon is among the Freys at the Siege of Riverrun, and for a time he believes he is the new overlord of the Riverlands until Jaime Lannister points out that honor is held by Petyr Baelish, Lord Paramount of the Trident.

Yes of course, but I was talking about lawful succesion after Hoster in normal circumstances. And since the local lords are just as fond of the Freys as the northern are of the Boltons, they may very well still consider Hoster's relatives as true owners of RR.

3 minutes ago, devilish said:

Well I am not sure about the last part. The Tullys are a 'young' house as compared to the Starks or lets say the Lannisters. The people there has less loyalty towards them. Also their geographical position makes it difficult to defend and the more likely to fall victim in a war. If their faction leader can bring the Lannister's wealth, the North's protection and the king's blessing to their lands then they will probably love him

Well, Blackfish has a reputation of his own... though he would probably had to finally marry. And Edmure was ineffectual, but loved as the lord.

Oh, and I forgot: if Jeyne Westerling turns out to be pregnant, her child is right after Edmure's child.

[devilish]

9 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Yes of course, but I was talking about lawful succesion after Hoster in normal circumstances. And since the local lords are just as fond of the Freys as the northern are of the Boltons, they may very well still consider Hoster's relatives as true owners of RR.

Well, Blackfish has a reputation of his own... though he would probably had to finally marry. And Edmure was ineffectual, but loved as the lord.

Oh, and I forgot: if Jeyne Westerling turns out to be pregnant, her child is right after Edmure's child.

An old man with no allies and with the Lannisters, Tyrells and the crown against him cannot better the heir of both the Lannisters and the North

PS Jeyne like Edmure are within Lannister hands

[marsyao]

31 minutes ago, devilish said:

 

Tywin would die long before everything occurs. The Lannister-Stark boy will bring wealth and stability which by then will be crippled by senseless violence (Ramsey) and a fragmented rule. They would love it especially if the Stark blood boy bring them Ramsey's head on a stake. Dont forget that the boy will have revenge in his genes. A Lannister always pays his debts and the North remembers. The Boltons  (mere bannermen) had betrayed their vows and killed his uncle and killed his grandmother after all. That's something neither Stark (vows) nor Lannister (revenge) will accept 

All this could be achieved by marrying Sansa to Tyrion, Engrland would never offer her crown to King of France, the North would never accept Lord of CR to be acting Lord of Winterfell.

P.S do not confuse the novel with the TV show, in the novel, it is Roose Bolton calling the shot in the North, and Roose is no Ramsay, and he would not cripple the North by senseless violence

[YOVMO]

On May 15, 2016 at 11:27 AM, devilish said:

After Robb's death and Edmure's capture Sansa became an important pawn in the Westerosi chess board. With Brandon and Rickon 'dead' she was heir to the North. She was also heir to the Riverlands especially if Edmure suffered an accident, something that could easily happen since he was brought as hostage to CR. Sansa was an important pawn, that shouldn't be used carefully, something I believe Tywin failed to do.

Under such circumstances Tywin's plan was right. Having the heir of CR marrying Sansa would bring two if not three great lands under one ruler. Sansa's child would have been heir to the Westerlands, he would be heir to the North and heir to the Riverlands if Edmure suffers an accident. The North would by then be ravaged by internal strife (Boltons vs the Stark loyalists vs Stannis vs the Wildlings vs the Iron islanders) should have ended an easy prey to a man with Stark blood, a solid army, the blessing of the king and unlimited funds (Westerlands). 

Unfortunately Tywin was dead set not to give Tyrion CR and lets face it, an imp would never be accepted as Lord Paramount of the North. Considering that the Boltons wouldn't simply bow down to the new Lord then for Tyrion son to be lord then the North would have to be conquered. Without the Lannister's money, Tyrion's son would have ended a beggar lord, who would spend most of his life begging the king to defend his claim and sanction an expensive expedition to invade the North, something grandma Cersei (she hates Tyrion and by default his children), mummy Margaery (the Lannisters risked to become too strong) and the king himself (an expensive expedition is never ideal) wouldn't be too happy about.

So I was wondering if instead granting Sansa to Tyrion, Tywin shouldn't have married her himself. The advantages for that are various

a- he would have a potential heir. Someone with claims to  the Westerlands, the Riverlands and the North
b- it would kick a hornet's nest. Cersei was cool with Tyrion because she knew he would never become heir to CR. However if Tywin planned to marry Sansa and have a child from her then she risked losing such prestigious region she called home and giving power to a child whose grandfather was killed by her son. Her obsession may even force her to beg Jamie to leave the KG and claim his stake. That would still be a win for Tywin (especially if that meant having Jamie marrying Sansa)
c- it would free Tywin from the need of keeping Tyrion around. If Tywin had a third son, Tywin could afford getting rid of Tyrion without risking losing the Westerlands.

What do you think?

 

 

I think this is close but missing out on one thing which is how Tywin didn't think of Tywin's glory and power, for him it was for the House and it's posterity.

So you have:

Sansa + Tyrion giving tyrion an admittedly tenuous hold on the north. But their child would be a child of the north and Sansa's child. I think that there is a way to make that work. I mean it isn't a sure shot but it isn't impossible.

After that you have Margary and Tommen which brings together casterly rock, the crownlands and Highgarden 

If you Marry Off the offspring of Marg and Tommen with the offspring of Sansa and Tyrian you would have a child who could be King, as well as being the lord paramount of the North and the West and the reach. That would be a huge bit of power right there.

If a few other moves fall into place Tywin could have died while planning on joining together up to 5 of the seven kingdoms under Lannister blood.

[devilish]

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I think this is close but missing out on one thing which is how Tywin didn't think of Tywin's glory and power, for him it was for the House and it's posterity.

So you have:

Sansa + Tyrion giving tyrion an admittedly tenuous hold on the north. But their child would be a child of the north and Sansa's child. I think that there is a way to make that work. I mean it isn't a sure shot but it isn't impossible.

After that you have Margary and Tommen which brings together casterly rock, the crownlands and Highgarden 

If you Marry Off the offspring of Marg and Tommen with the offspring of Sansa and Tyrian you would have a child who could be King, as well as being the lord paramount of the North and the West and the reach. That would be a huge bit of power right there.

If a few other moves fall into place Tywin could have died while planning on joining together up to 5 of the seven kingdoms under Lannister blood.

However that presents a lot of things to consider

a- There's a decent chance Sansa's kid would be an imp, which is already bad enough for the more cultured Southern houses let alone the more 'savage' houses in the North

b- The Boltons will not hand the land without a fight so the North will have to be conquered (houses will join the Starks-Lannister if they see an adequate force but that force must be built). In addition the major houses (who wouldn't want the Lannisters to grow too strong) and Cersei will make sure  that Tyrion's son won't be helped by anybody. You will see another Viserys situation, where Tyrion's son will be knocking at the doors of every big house begging for support which wont be given. 

If by some miracle Tyrion or his son does manages to bring the North at his side to fight his wars against the Boltons then they will be asking him something in exchange and that will probably mean either independence (bad news for the Lannisters) or worse revenge. Both Tyrion and his son will have an axe to grind against the Lannisters. The queen mother hates them, they were stripped out of their right of inheriting CR (we all know that the North are pretty sensitive on that too) and Tyrion's son will be raised hating the Lannisters for butchering his mother family and abusing both of his parents. 

 

 

 

 

[CJ McLannister]

9 hours ago, devilish said:

However that presents a lot of things to consider

a- There's a decent chance Sansa's kid would be an imp, which is already bad enough for the more cultured Southern houses let alone the more 'savage' houses in the North

b- The Boltons will not hand the land without a fight so the North will have to be conquered (houses will join the Starks-Lannister if they see an adequate force but that force must be built). In addition the major houses (who wouldn't want the Lannisters to grow too strong) and Cersei will make sure  that Tyrion's son won't be helped by anybody. You will see another Viserys situation, where Tyrion's son will be knocking at the doors of every big house begging for support which wont be given. 

If by some miracle Tyrion or his son does manages to bring the North at his side to fight his wars against the Boltons then they will be asking him something in exchange and that will probably mean either independence (bad news for the Lannisters) or worse revenge. Both Tyrion and his son will have an axe to grind against the Lannisters. The queen mother hates them, they were stripped out of their right of inheriting CR (we all know that the North are pretty sensitive on that too) and Tyrion's son will be raised hating the Lannisters for butchering his mother family and abusing both of his parents. 

There's a decent argument to be made that Tywin's best strategic move would have been killing Cersei.

[devilish]

On 03/06/2016 at 4:13 PM, CJ McLannister said:

There's a decent argument to be made that Tywin's best strategic move would have been killing Cersei.

Nah. It would have made the Lannisters look weak causing a rift between CR and the Crown + Jamie. In my opinion, she would be better off married to somebody. Id offer her (+ the Stormlands) to Harry Strickland if he bring in Aegon's head. Bringing the Golden Company to the fold would greatly strengthen the Lannister position and provide some stability to the Stormlands which are at the brink of anarchy