Sansa Stark marriage to a Lannister

[Tianzi]

4 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

 Tywin had to know that...

Tywin was blind in surprisingly many aspects. Actually, taking out the meta point of view, the interesting question is not why he didn't marry Sansa himself, but why he never remarried, hell, why didn't he do so long before Sansa was born. There would have to be several advantages. He could have some more heirs, especially since he noticed how much he was disappointed with the existing litter. It would be a sensible thing to do, and yet Tywin didn't do the sensible thing, because...? He thought it was beneath him? He liked his reputation of never-consoled widower?

[Nevets]

I think Tywin's purpose in marrying Sansa to Tyrion was simply to take Sansa off the table.  With her married to Tyrion, it makes it impossible for the Tyrells or Starks to increase their power through using her as marriage bait.  But she is of no great use to the Lannisters, either.  Neither she nor her family's allies are likely to be inclined to be cooperative  Thus Tyrion is selected.  As far as Tywin is concerned, Tyrion is expendable.  No one else wants to marry him, so taking him out of circulation is no great loss.  If he is able to rule Wintefell, great.  If not, no great loss.  At least the Tyrells won't have a foot in the door, which is what this is all about. It is essentially a blocking move, and both Tyrion and Sansa are being used as pieces in Tyrion's game.

What this bodes for the future, I don't know.  I actually think Sansa could use her marriage as a blocking move to avoid a marriage she doesn't want.  "Why I'd love to marry Harry the Heir", the little shit, "but I'm already married."  And plan to stay that way, if it keeps me from being used in plot like this one.

[marsyao]

13 hours ago, Leonardo said:

It was Tyrion's reward. Sansa would rule in Winterfell in name, but Tyrion would do the actual ruling day to day much as he did as hand. Tywin saw Tyrion's usefulness to a point

Yes, the purpose of this marriage is also about to patch thing up with North, now Lannister has won the war, but there is many bittness and scors to be settle between the North and the Westerland, so let Tyrion marries Sansa, since Westero (except people in Dorn) believes a woman could not rule, so Tyrion, as husband of Lord paramount of the North, would do the acutal rulling until their children come to the age, and since the next Stark would have half Lannister blood, Lannisters could expect a freindly North in at least in foreseeable future

[Hos the Hostage]

@OP: You make me think that Tywin had a heart of gold.

[Hos the Hostage]

But seriously, Tywin is too old for Sansa - and Tywin is no Walder Frey. He did not want people's love, but he may have thought that marrying the girl previously betrothed to his grandson would invite rage. Marrying Sansa would also make Tywin get more blame for Red Wedding than he intended.

[CJ McLannister]

4 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Tywin was blind in surprisingly many aspects. 

I think he was willfully blind to things that he refused to accept.  Like twincest, and the fact that his whoring drunken grotesque son was the only one fit to follow in his footsteps.

When Joanna died, he was what?  About 30?  Certainly young enough to remarry.  As the richest man in the land (probably), I can't imagine he lacked for options either.  For someone so devoted to family, after a few years of mourning, marriage would be the best move.  Sure, he might not love his new bride, but by Westerosi standards, that's hardly a requirement.  Even if he was certain he could convince Jaime to give up his white cloak, what's the danger of some extra sons and daughters to use as pawns?  

Tywin just seems way too pragmatic to let sentimentality get in the way, so I think it's open speculation time for why he didn't remarry.  Was he sterile?  Was he homosexual?  Did he secretly marry Lyanna Stark and father a bastard?  Was he afraid he could only produce dwarves?  Was it some sort of loophole to avoid extra taxes?  All legitimate questions.

[Hos the Hostage]

@bent branch, @Elisabetta Duò

Based on Martin's original plan from the 1991 letter, I like to think that the Tyrion/Sansa marriage happened not to get the Tyrells away from Sansa, but the Tyrell plot was introduced to make Tyrion/Sansa marriage happen. 

[Tianzi]

27 minutes ago, Hos the Hostage said:

But seriously, Tywin is too old for Sansa

Well, Tyrion was too dwarft and too Lannister for Sansa. All of them are Sansa's problem, I don't think Tywin would lose any sleep over that. (and again, he just should be married before Sansa entered the picture)

27 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Tywin just seems way too pragmatic to let sentimentality get in the way, so I think it's open speculation time for why he didn't remarry.  Was he sterile?  Was he homosexual?  Did he secretly marry Lyanna Stark and father a bastard?  Was he afraid he could only produce dwarves?  Was it some sort of loophole to avoid extra taxes?  All legitimate questions.

!

Maybe he was impotent. He hired Shae to try to get her to help him, he knew she was in the Lannister pocket so she had to be discreet... I always thought it was ridiculous he was willing to use a whore after his son.

[Kolx]

I actually never understood why he married Sansa to Tyrion instead of Lancel even Cersei sees Lancel as a better option

[Elisabetta Duò]

17 hours ago, bent branch said:

@bent branch

I agree with you that the marriage already seved a purpose (even if you think the marriage happened to serve that purpose, I think GRRM wanted the marriage to happen and created a situation where it would have been 'required' and/or that there were in theory other ways to solve that same problem).

I'm wondering if it will still be relevant in the future, for the reasons I've mentioned. I'm very curious about it because I think this might impact on Tyrion's chances of survival.

As for your point 1), I've already answered when I said that "even assuming the Lannisters came to know about the marriage only after Willas-Sansa were wed - unlikely, in King's Landing, full of spies - in those times marriages could be relatively easily undone, when politics required it " … in my opinion (personal opinion of course, so I can see you disagree here) this would work in the opposite case as well: Olena says that they just had to keep it quiet and wait after th J-M marriage and it all would be OK, as if a marriage was indissoluble … I think, at the contrary, that if the Lannisters found out a short time after the J-M marriage that the Tyrells made Willas marry Sansa, they would have had room enough to say that the Tyrells were traitors and for this reason, the marriage had to be called off because they had be tricked in a marriage with traitors and they found out only after the marriage that they were traitors. They called off Sansa's engagement with Jeoffrey saying 'well she's the daughter of a traitor'. Calling of a marriage might be slightly more difficult, but honestly, not that much (there are plenty of reasons to dissolve a marriage);

As for 2), I think the Lannisters would have found out in any case, even without LF, thanks to Varys or thanks to other spies of theirs; the Lannisters are in a better position than the Tyrells in KL, it's their 'home' since Cersei became Queen ... they had more links, connections, men and spies than everyone else there.

As for 3), I interpreted that line differently. I think that Tywin meant to say that they, as Lannisters, were in a win-win situation, because the Tyrells couldn't openly show that they were  angry about the Sansa-Tyrion marriage and had to swallow it and pretend it was OK; in fact, since the Tyrells kept their interest for Sansa unknown, they couldn't claim the Lannisters made them a tort without confessing that they were planning to marry Sansa to another (one of their own relatives) since before the Sansa-Tyrion engagement, which the Tyrells could never confess because it would prove they were trying to act behind the Lannisters' back.

 

 

[Nevets]

On 5/15/2016 at 9:27 AM, devilish said:

After Robb's death and Edmure's capture Sansa became an important pawn in the Westerosi chess board. With Brandon and Rickon 'dead' she was heir to the North. She was also heir to the Riverlands especially if Edmure suffered an accident, something that could easily happen since he was brought as hostage to CR. Sansa was an important pawn, that shouldn't be used carefully, something I believe Tywin failed to do.

Under such circumstances Tywin's plan was right. Having the heir of CR marrying Sansa would bring two if not three great lands under one ruler. Sansa's child would have been heir to the Westerlands, he would be heir to the North and heir to the Riverlands if Edmure suffers an accident. The North would by then be ravaged by internal strife (Boltons vs the Stark loyalists vs Stannis vs the Wildlings vs the Iron islanders) should have ended an easy prey to a man with Stark blood, a solid army, the blessing of the king and unlimited funds (Westerlands). 

Unfortunately Tywin was dead set not to give Tyrion CR and lets face it, an imp would never be accepted as Lord Paramount of the North. Considering that the Boltons wouldn't simply bow down to the new Lord then for Tyrion son to be lord then the North would have to be conquered. Without the Lannister's money, Tyrion's son would have ended a beggar lord, who would spend most of his life begging the king to defend his claim and sanction an expensive expedition to invade the North, something grandma Cersei (she hates Tyrion and by default his children), mummy Margaery (the Lannisters risked to become too strong) and the king himself (an expensive expedition is never ideal) wouldn't be too happy about.

So I was wondering if instead granting Sansa to Tyrion, Tywin shouldn't have married her himself. The advantages for that are various

a- he would have a potential heir. Someone with claims to  the Westerlands, the Riverlands and the North
b- it would kick a hornet's nest. Cersei was cool with Tyrion because she knew he would never become heir to CR. However if Tywin planned to marry Sansa and have a child from her then she risked losing such prestigious region she called home and giving power to a child whose grandfather was killed by her son. Her obsession may even force her to beg Jamie to leave the KG and claim his stake. That would still be a win for Tywin (especially if that meant having Jamie marrying Sansa)
c- it would free Tywin from the need of keeping Tyrion around. If Tywin had a third son, Tywin could afford getting rid of Tyrion without risking losing the Westerlands.

What do you think?

 

 

Sansa is effectively useless to the Lannisters.  The enmity between the Starks and Lannisters is so deep by this point that no marriage will fix it.  She is a prisoner, and will be perceived as such by any Stark or Tully bannermen , which will severely limit the Lannisters' ability to act.  No one is going to accept "Lady Lannister"'s son so long as she is subject to Lannister control.  It is possible she could be a sweetener in a deal with another major house.  Let them try to use her heritage.  But if she is left unmarried for any time, then there is the possibility of others using her to their benefit in their future.  Thus the marriage, which is essentially a blocking move to keep her from marrying anyone else.  If Tywin is going to marry, it will be for way more advantage than Sansa Stark offers.

[marsyao]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Sansa is effectively useless to the Lannisters.  The enmity between the Starks and Lannisters is so deep by this point that no marriage will fix it.  She is a prisoner, and will be perceived as such by any Stark or Tully bannermen , which will severely limit the Lannisters' ability to act.  No one is going to accept "Lady Lannister"'s son so long as she is subject to Lannister control.

About the inheritance law in Westero, you can read my previous posts, Just a few extra points: after allegedly deaths of all Stark sons, Sansa would be heir of the Wintefell and Lord Paramount of the North, it is a common mistake among the readers to assume it would be her husband to be  Lord Paramount of the North, IT IS NOT. So you can see if Lannisters allow her to marry to other Lords of powerfull house, then she would be a huge threat to Lannisters, but if let her marry to Tyrion. marriage would NOT make her Lady Lannister but make Tyrion husband of Lord Paramount of the North. the last name of their children would be Stark, not Lannister, and since their children would have half Lannister blood, then it would be possible to remove the enmity between house Stark and house Lannister

[Elisabetta Duò]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Sansa is effectively useless to the Lannisters.  The enmity between the Starks and Lannisters is so deep by this point that no marriage will fix it.  She is a prisoner, and will be perceived as such by any Stark or Tully bannermen , which will severely limit the Lannisters' ability to act.  No one is going to accept "Lady Lannister"'s son so long as she is subject to Lannister control.  It is possible she could be a sweetener in a deal with another major house.  Let them try to use her heritage.  But if she is left unmarried for any time, then there is the possibility of others using her to their benefit in their future.  Thus the marriage, which is essentially a blocking move to keep her from marrying anyone else.  If Tywin is going to marry, it will be for way more advantage than Sansa Stark offers.

If you meant (only) at that specific time of the game, I may agree. But if you meant that Starks and Lannisters hate each other so much that 'no marriage will ever fix it', history proved you wrong … in real history, Yorks (= Starks) and Lancasters (= Lannisters) destroyed each other for ages (the Yorks winning and losing but in the end mainly winning, the Lancasters in the end losing) but the War of the Roses really ended when a Tudor decendant of an illegittimate branch of House Lancaster, Henry VII, married Elizabeth of York, so that York and Lancaster were united and the red rose of the Lancaster and the white rose of the Yorks became the white+red rose which is the symbol of house Tudor. The marriage of Henry and Elizabeth was set only for political reasons but they came to care about each other with time and when she died giving birth at only 37, he was incredibly distressed.

[Boarsbane]

4 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Well, Tyrion was too dwarft and too Lannister for Sansa. All of them are Sansa's problem, I don't think Tywin would lose any sleep over that. (and again, he just should be married before Sansa entered the picture)

!

Maybe he was impotent. He hired Shae to try to get her to help him, he knew she was in the Lannister pocket so she had to be discreet... I always thought it was ridiculous he was willing to use a whore after his son.

If he was impotent he'd of had Tyrion killed as a baby because there is no way he'd of been a son of his. 

[Pies are coming]

On 15/5/2016 at 0:51 PM, Woman of War said:

You are right, by all story  lgic  and by all historical examples the present Lord of CR would have tried to get himself a heir and, conveniently, the last heiress of Winterfell. 

This is so very logical that that all fandom discussions have a hard time to interpret things into Tywin's undying love for Joanna which after so many years are hardly plausible as wedding stopper since he would not have had to share dinner  with Sansa nor the bathroom, he simply would have had to get her pregnant. No moral compunctions would have stopped him to be sure. Was he incapable of having sex or did he know that he was sterile? Another somewhat twisted fandom speculation, given that there was Shae in his bed.

Actually the gaping plot hole is: Why didn't Tywin remarry years ago since he urgently needed another heir? Yes yes, he still had the illusion to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard, but another heir would not have stopped him from trying that, would it? And only one heir, no spare?

Given this plot hole which cannot be discussed away anymore - the only reasonable argument to lure Tyrion into the Sansa marriage is that Tyrion could actually take a potential heir to WF while Tywin himself could stay at KL as Tommen's hand.

There was no need, not even much sense for Martin to write it that way ...except one: Martin had a very good reason to link the story of Sansa and Tyrion, a reason we can only speculate about. And the author was willing  to go to some lengths of stretching logic to make his ultimate story goal possible in the future.

Plot-wise, Tywin wouldn't have hesitated to consummate the marriage by raping Sansa, even if he decides to wait for a few years for a heir so the birth is safer for both mother (which he needs if the baby dies soon) and the baby (which is what he's after). Which means a few things:

We can't get a POV on Tywin because it would reveal too much, so the consummation is either hearsay by Tyrion, or we get a rape POV

We get an even more traumatized Sansa

If Sansa's virginity comes into play later, it's not possible with a Tywin marriage

Tywin is scheduled to die to make room for Cersei's regency, so Sansa becomes a widow - and it's likely that the plot requires to block further Sansa marriages.

We could find in-universe justifications if we want, but they aren't that supported in the actual text.

On 15/5/2016 at 4:16 PM, NutBurz said:

I think that more important than "the plot had to happen this way" is analyzing the conjuncture of Westeros the way Tywin "von Bismarck" would. He has the North busy (and pissed) with the Boltons (who are aligned to him), the Riverlands aligned to him under the Freys, the Westerlands/Iron Throne safely under puppets, the Reach and the Stormlands officially aligned under the crown.

Tywin needs above anything to strenghten ties with Dorne. He couldn´t care less for the North for now, and a "heir under way" in the form of Sansa´s baby provides him with enough time to see what will be the North´s repercussion to the Red Wedding, or at least to be better prepared for what would be to come.

He had been trying to please Doran for some time when he died. He probably looked at fools like Walder Frey and believed his cunning would keep him alive for much longer yet. So I believe he was saving the second best thing he could offer Dorne, after the crown - himself and a heritage line in Casterly Rock.

Doran will never marry Arianne to Tywin Lannister. Or any Martell, or even Dornish, for that matter

4 hours ago, Kolx said:

I actually never understood why he married Sansa to Tyrion instead of Lancel even Cersei sees Lancel as a better option

Lancel was still recovering ATM. Plot wise, it could have happened, and a religious Lancel might have refused to consummate the marriage - although in that scene Sansa tries to convince herself to fuck Tyrion. With a more handsome husband, her body language would have been different, so I find consummation likely.

In-universe, Tyrion is Tywin's son. Lancel is not. Tywin is giving Tyrion the North. Would Sansa prefer Lancel? Maybe, but why should Tywin care about Sansa's feelings?

4 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

I agree with you that the marriage already seved a purpose (even if you think the marriage happened to serve that purpose, I think GRRM wanted the marriage to happen and created a situation where it would have been 'required' and/or that there were in theory other ways to solve that same problem).

I'm wondering if it will still be relevant in the future, for the reasons I've mentioned. I'm very curious about it because I think this might impact on Tyrion's chances of survival.

As for your point 1), I've already answered when I said that "even assuming the Lannisters came to know about the marriage only after Willas-Sansa were wed - unlikely, in King's Landing, full of spies - in those times marriages could be relatively easily undone, when politics required it " … in my opinion (personal opinion of course, so I can see you disagree here) this would work in the opposite case as well: Olena says that they just had to keep it quiet and wait after th J-M marriage and it all would be OK, as if a marriage was indissoluble … I think, at the contrary, that if the Lannisters found out a short time after the J-M marriage that the Tyrells made Willas marry Sansa, they would have had room enough to say that the Tyrells were traitors and for this reason, the marriage had to be called off because they had be tricked in a marriage with traitors and they found out only after the marriage that they were traitors. They called off Sansa's engagement with Jeoffrey saying 'well she's the daughter of a traitor'. Calling of a marriage might be slightly more difficult, but honestly, not that much (there are plenty of reasons to dissolve a marriage);

No, no. You're thinking about the actual middle ages. In Westeros, consummated marriages are pretty much ironclad. The only way out is if one of the two join a celibate order, and I don't see the Lannisters pressuring the Tyrells into forcing Margery to join the silent sisters.

The entire political system relies on marriages to be ironclad.

[Leonardo]

Maybe he was afraid of siring another dwarf. Maybe it was to help keep him extremely impartial by not having a wife, and he figured he had 2 capable heirs once Jaime is relieved of the Kingsguard. There was no real pressure to get Jaime out when Jaime was leading Lannister armies anyways while wearing the white cloak. 

[CJ McLannister]

Tywin may not have trusted Lancel.  Tyrion figured out he was screwing Cersei almost immediately.  Tywin probably had his suspicions as well.  If he thought Lancel was Cersei's creature, he may be hesitant to give him too much power.  Now a nice close lucrative castle and a wife who knows her way around a stable?  Sure.  He can't do too much damage there.

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 21 maggio 2016 at 4:58 AM, Pies are coming said:

No, no. You're thinking about the actual middle ages. In Westeros, consummated marriages are pretty much ironclad. The only way out is if one of the two join a celibate order, and I don't see the Lannisters pressuring the Tyrells into forcing Margery to join the silent sisters.

The entire political system relies on marriages to be ironclad.

We agree to disagree then. GRRM took inspiration from history (especially UK and the War of the Roses but also latin and greek history, the Borgia family, Shakespeare, etc) and we don't have any proof that in Westeros the marriage would be ironclad. In theory, they were ironclad even in real history (it should have been almost impossible to break a marriage, especially a catholic one) but it's not like they actually cared …. they always found a way.. lied about the consummation, found the right priest / pope who would annull anything, killed the woman or forced her to become a nun, etc., so I think in Westeros it would be the same.

[CJ McLannister]

Besides Tyrion's (which was consummated) do we have any examples of marriages being put aside?  

I know there was talk of pressuring Robert into ending his marriage with Cersei, but I assume that the incest/treason would be the reasoning there.  Now, we have a fairly narrow slice of Westerosi examples, but it still seems very uncommon.  We have Jorah and Doran as examples of marriages that have effectively ended, but have not been officially dissolved.

[Nevets]

On 5/21/2016 at 7:30 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

If you meant (only) at that specific time of the game, I may agree. But if you meant that Starks and Lannisters hate each other so much that 'no marriage will ever fix it', history proved you wrong … in real history, Yorks (= Starks) and Lancasters (= Lannisters) destroyed each other for ages (the Yorks winning and losing but in the end mainly winning, the Lancasters in the end losing) but the War of the Roses really ended when a Tudor decendant of an illegittimate branch of House Lancaster, Henry VII, married Elizabeth of York, so that York and Lancaster were united and the red rose of the Lancaster and the white rose of the Yorks became the white+red rose which is the symbol of house Tudor. The marriage of Henry and Elizabeth was set only for political reasons but they came to care about each other with time and when she died giving birth at only 37, he was incredibly distressed.

I was referring to the time period when Sansa is married off to Tyrion.   The Lannisters cannot afford to leave her unmarried for fear that she will later be married to someone else's advantage, hence the marriage to Tyrion.  But, as far as using her to gain effective control of a region, that won't happen.  

As far as the future goes, I agree with you.  A marriage between the two families would likely be a useful way of settling the enmity between them.  And, in fact, I have argued elsewhere that the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion could fulfill this purpose, if they choose to get back together.  Given that they both seem to be politically inclined, they could be a strong political partnership.