norwaywolf123 Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 On 20.5.2016 at 10:37 PM, Tianzi said: Tywin was blind in surprisingly many aspects. Actually, taking out the meta point of view, the interesting question is not why he didn't marry Sansa himself, but why he never remarried, hell, why didn't he do so long before Sansa was born. There would have to be several advantages. He could have some more heirs, especially since he noticed how much he was disappointed with the existing litter. It would be a sensible thing to do, and yet Tywin didn't do the sensible thing, because...? He thought it was beneath him? He liked his reputation of never-consoled widower? it would reflect badly on Tywin. BBut now everybody blames TYrion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 On 20/05/2016 at 9:31 PM, marsyao said: I think there is a misunderstanding here, because if all male decedents of House Stark died, then Sansa, not her hunsband Tyrion, would be Lord Paramount of the North, and the last name of their children would be Stark, not Lannister This is the common custom for the inheritance in the Westero, I do not see based on what Lord Bolton would not accept that fact Irrespective of surname, the Boltons would never accept him as a Lord without a fight. Don't forget that the Boltons had betrayed half the boy's family, turning Winterfell into their playing place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 One possible reason for Tywin to no remarry could also be that he knew history and so knew what a clusterfuck erupted when Viserys remarried. If he wanted as son who was in the Kingsguard to inherit it was best to ensure there were no popular non-kingsguard sons around to contest. Tyrion should have been more than enough without bring a new brood into world and and potentially have to many heirs around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 On 5/23/2016 at 3:53 PM, CJ McLannister said: Besides Tyrion's (which was consummated) do we have any examples of marriages being put aside? I know there was talk of pressuring Robert into ending his marriage with Cersei, but I assume that the incest/treason would be the reasoning there. Now, we have a fairly narrow slice of Westerosi examples, but it still seems very uncommon. We have Jorah and Doran as examples of marriages that have effectively ended, but have not been officially dissolved. Daemon Targaryen wanted his brother King Viserys to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce, which Viserys refused to do; but that would seem to indicate Daemon thought it was possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, Colonel Green said: Daemon Targaryen wanted his brother King Viserys to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce, which Viserys refused to do; but that would seem to indicate Daemon thought it was possible. I don't think the king himself could but he could presumably have put pressure on the High Septon to annull the marriage, if I understood things right, and thus get the same effect. With the High Sparrow that option might be more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsyao Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 14 hours ago, devilish said: Irrespective of surname, the Boltons would never accept him as a Lord without a fight. Don't forget that the Boltons had betrayed half the boy's family, turning Winterfell into their playing place. Stark's name in the North and the back of Lannister could count Boltons, of course there could be a war, but a Stark and Lannister alliance would have better chance to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 On 5/15/2016 at 9:27 AM, devilish said: After Robb's death and Edmure's capture Sansa became an important pawn in the Westerosi chess board. With Brandon and Rickon 'dead' she was heir to the North. She was also heir to the Riverlands especially if Edmure suffered an accident, something that could easily happen since he was brought as hostage to CR. Sansa was an important pawn, that shouldn't be used carefully, something I believe Tywin failed to do. Under such circumstances Tywin's plan was right. Having the heir of CR marrying Sansa would bring two if not three great lands under one ruler. Sansa's child would have been heir to the Westerlands, he would be heir to the North and heir to the Riverlands if Edmure suffers an accident. The North would by then be ravaged by internal strife (Boltons vs the Stark loyalists vs Stannis vs the Wildlings vs the Iron islanders) should have ended an easy prey to a man with Stark blood, a solid army, the blessing of the king and unlimited funds (Westerlands). Unfortunately Tywin was dead set not to give Tyrion CR and lets face it, an imp would never be accepted as Lord Paramount of the North. Considering that the Boltons wouldn't simply bow down to the new Lord then for Tyrion son to be lord then the North would have to be conquered. Without the Lannister's money, Tyrion's son would have ended a beggar lord, who would spend most of his life begging the king to defend his claim and sanction an expensive expedition to invade the North, something grandma Cersei (she hates Tyrion and by default his children), mummy Margaery (the Lannisters risked to become too strong) and the king himself (an expensive expedition is never ideal) wouldn't be too happy about. So I was wondering if instead granting Sansa to Tyrion, Tywin shouldn't have married her himself. The advantages for that are various a- he would have a potential heir. Someone with claims to the Westerlands, the Riverlands and the North b- it would kick a hornet's nest. Cersei was cool with Tyrion because she knew he would never become heir to CR. However if Tywin planned to marry Sansa and have a child from her then she risked losing such prestigious region she called home and giving power to a child whose grandfather was killed by her son. Her obsession may even force her to beg Jamie to leave the KG and claim his stake. That would still be a win for Tywin (especially if that meant having Jamie marrying Sansa) c- it would free Tywin from the need of keeping Tyrion around. If Tywin had a third son, Tywin could afford getting rid of Tyrion without risking losing the Westerlands. What do you think? I like your logic on everything except that Sansa would not be the rightful heir to the Riverlands. She would have a possible chance of being an heir to Riverrun but their is still the Blackfish, probably have the best claim because he comes from the male line of Tullys. Inheriting the Riverlands would be a much harder claim. She wouldn't be the clear heir in the Riverlands, Littlefinger is the Lord of Harrenhal and that gives him Claim to the title of Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Also the Frey are in the Mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 On 20/05/2016 at 9:31 PM, marsyao said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 7 hours ago, marsyao said: Stark's name in the North and the back of Lannister could count Boltons, of course there could be a war, but a Stark and Lannister alliance would have better chance to win That's exactly why I believe that Tywin should have married Sansa and produced a heir rather then Tyrion. Think about it Tywin Jnr Stark/Lannister - Heir of both CR and Winterfell. A person who can rely on the funds and the armies of the Westerlands + the backing of the crown and hopefully he's got a physique which the Northerners can accept (if he's got a Stark resemblance the better) as opposed to Tyrion jnr Stark - he's got no lands (his father would never allow CR to end to Tyrion), he's got no army and he's hated by the queen mother (Cersei hates anything that is remotely linked with Tyrion). Also his father is a dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 7 hours ago, House Beaudreau said: I like your logic on everything except that Sansa would not be the rightful heir to the Riverlands. She would have a possible chance of being an heir to Riverrun but their is still the Blackfish, probably have the best claim because he comes from the male line of Tullys. Inheriting the Riverlands would be a much harder claim. She wouldn't be the clear heir in the Riverlands, Littlefinger is the Lord of Harrenhal and that gives him Claim to the title of Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Also the Frey are in the Mix. The blackfish is not Edmure son and he's an old man, with no heirs and on the run. Littlefinger is a petty Lord who originated from the Vale. The Freys are backstabbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsyao Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 4 hours ago, devilish said: That's exactly why I believe that Tywin should have married Sansa and produced a heir rather then Tyrion. Think about it No, North would never accept Lord of CR to be Lord of Winterfell, Tyrion, on the other hand, is the second son who has neither title nor land for himself, that makes him a more suitable caretaker for the next generation of Starks, Because the Lord of CR would not put the interest of the North on top of priority, but Tyrion would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, marsyao said: No, North would never accept Lord of CR to be Lord of Winterfell, Tyrion, on the other hand, is the second son who has neither title nor land for himself, that makes him a more suitable caretaker for the next generation of Starks, Because the Lord of CR would not put the interest of the North on top of priority, but Tyrion would He will be both Lord of CR and Lord of Winterfell. A normal man son of a powerful lord whose grandfather of the King himself rather then the son of an evil 'monster' who murdered his mother and had probably planned Bran's accident. After a decade or two under Roose and Ramsey the North will be desperate for someone with Stark's blood. If that person happens to be the richest in the realm and with a 40k army at his back then I can see the bickering north accepting him rather then fold for Roose evil bastard, especially if the boy happens to bring in the Freys and Roose's head on a spike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsyao Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 2 hours ago, devilish said: He will be both Lord of CR and Lord of Winterfell. That would be mean North would be subject the rule of Westland, and Tywin of course would put the interest of the Westland over the North, noble houses of the North would never accept that PS. he would not be both Lord of CR and Lord of Winterfell. he would be Lord of CR and husband of Lady of Winterfell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 There is one good reason Tywin couldn't really marry Sansa: she was Joffrey's leftovers. Joffrey renounced her as a daughter of a traitor and someone unworthy. I don't see the proud Tywin taking his grandson's publicly rejected bride (well, in private he was willing to use his son's leftover whores, but this is different). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 8 hours ago, devilish said: The blackfish is not Edmure son and he's an old man, with no heirs and on the run. Littlefinger is a petty Lord who originated from the Vale. The Freys are backstabbers Yes the Blackfish is not Edmure son he is his uncle and Sansa's Great uncle. If Edmure Dies without an heir, The blackfish would have a better claim to Riverrun than Sansa. He is the brother of Hoster Tully and actually from the Riverlands. Him being unmarried and without an Heir actually improves his chances because he could promise a marriage to a riverlord in exchange to back his claim. However Sansa has no claim to riverrun unless people die, and she seems to have no interest in the possibility of her making claim to riverrun. Its All about the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 1 minute ago, House Beaudreau said: Yes the Blackfish is not Edmure son he is his uncle and Sansa's Great uncle. If Edmure Dies without an heir, The blackfish would have a better claim to Riverrun than Sansa. He is the brother of Hoster Tully and actually from the Riverlands. Him being unmarried and without an Heir actually improves his chances because he could promise a marriage to a riverlord in exchange to back his claim. However Sansa has no claim to riverrun unless people die, and she seems to have no interest in the possibility of her making claim to riverrun. Its All about the North. The line os inheritance after Hoster goes: - Edmure - Edmure's children - Cat's children - Sweetrobin - Blackfish. Of course, he would be more desired by the locals and he has the right last name, but he comes after Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 1 hour ago, marsyao said: That would be mean North would be subject the rule of Westland, and Tywin of course would put the interest of the Westland over the North, noble houses of the North would never accept that PS. he would not be both Lord of CR and Lord of Winterfell. he would be Lord of CR and husband of Lady of Winterfell Tywin would die long before everything occurs. The Lannister-Stark boy will bring wealth and stability which by then will be crippled by senseless violence (Ramsey) and a fragmented rule. They would love it especially if the Stark blood boy bring them Ramsey's head on a stake. Dont forget that the boy will have revenge in his genes. A Lannister always pays his debts and the North remembers. The Boltons (mere bannermen) had betrayed their vows and killed his uncle and killed his grandmother after all. That's something neither Stark (vows) nor Lannister (revenge) will accept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said: Yes the Blackfish is not Edmure son he is his uncle and Sansa's Great uncle. If Edmure Dies without an heir, The blackfish would have a better claim to Riverrun than Sansa. He is the brother of Hoster Tully and actually from the Riverlands. Him being unmarried and without an Heir actually improves his chances because he could promise a marriage to a riverlord in exchange to back his claim. However Sansa has no claim to riverrun unless people die, and she seems to have no interest in the possibility of her making claim to riverrun. Its All about the North. as Tianzi said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Beaudreau Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tianzi said: The line os inheritance after Hoster goes: - Edmure - Edmure's children - Cat's children - Sweetrobin - Blackfish. Of course, he would be more desired by the locals and he has the right last name, but he comes after Sansa. succession is messy in westeros. A Major theme of the works is the inherent problems with the idea of noble inheiritance, Kings Blood, Purity of a bloodline Etc. Strictly speaking of Riverrun, Emmon Frey is Lord of Riverrun now. Emmon is among the Freys at the Siege of Riverrun, and for a time he believes he is the new overlord of the Riverlands until Jaime Lannister points out that honor is held by Petyr Baelish, Lord Paramount of the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tianzi said: The line os inheritance after Hoster goes: - Edmure - Edmure's children - Cat's children - Sweetrobin - Blackfish. Of course, he would be more desired by the locals and he has the right last name, but he comes after Sansa. Well I am not sure about the last part. The Tullys are a 'young' house as compared to the Starks or lets say the Lannisters. The people there has less loyalty towards them. Also their geographical position makes it difficult to defend and the more likely to fall victim in a war. If their faction leader can bring the Lannister's wealth, the North's protection and the king's blessing to their lands then they will probably love him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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