Red Priestess

[blckp]

22 hours ago, sj4iy said:

He's one of two people.  Anything that says "Only two people in the world have done this" means that it's special by default.  By the same token, you could say that "Dany hatching dragons is nothing special" because other people have done it before...but it's still special because it's not something that many people could do.

Also, it's pretty obvious to me that Beric and Jon's resurrections are different- because Beric says that he has 'lost a part of himself'...Jon displays nothing of the sort.  So why is it that Jon came back whole and Beric did not?  Jon can't warg in this version of the story, so there's another reason that he has come back the way he did when Beric did not.

However, I don't think that the different camps will ever really 'learn' about the other- they are separated by too much distance- literally and story-wise.  Dany's story sets her on a quest to conquer and possibly move to strike Westeros while the iron is hot, and Jon's story sets him on a quest to regain the North and start setting up to defend against the White Walkers.  I doubt that Dany will be involved in the White Walker storyline for some time yet.  Both camps think of their people as gods and both camps have their reasons for it.  The only real difference I see between them is that Dany seeks that kind of power and Jon does not.  How will that play out?  We'll see.

lady stone heart says hi, and who knows how many in off screen ,

beric has been resurrected many times yet seems not so different , cant really tell what he lost, so its moot guess,

i doubt jon snow can stand against WW with 2k man and 1 valiryan sword, makes no sense even in GOT fantasy world

its pretty obvious who is ice and who is fire,

ice= nights king champion of great other, fire = daenerys champion of fiery red god ,a song of ice and fire =tale of upcoming clash

whole 5 season daenerys has been accumulating power and season 6 she still accumulating power, and there is no real challenger for her to use all her might in essos and westeros, at this point she pretty much crubstomps anyone so whats the use of her getting more and more powerful? kinda obvious though

 

[sj4iy]

6 hours ago, GravyFace said:

Beric lost part of himself because he came back many times (like 6 or 7, I forget). He said he lost parts of himself everytime. 

 

Dany is the only person to walk out of a fire (twice in the show), and the only person to hatch dragons from stone. I would think that's why they think Dany is AA. 

And if Beric lost a part of himself every time, why hasn't Jon done the same?  Because the resurrections are not the same.

Dany is fireproof, we know that.  That's not part of any prophecy, though, so is irrelevant.  Dragons hatching from stone is pretty convincing...but we've seen a case in Dunk & Egg where the 'dragon will hatch' prophecy had nothing to do with eggs, and everything to do with Aegon.  The very fact that Jon has Targaryen blood means that he could be the dragon from stone, as well.

There's also the fact that you can't say "Well, she hatched dragon eggs and that's directly in the prophecy!" and ignore the possibility of Jon being a metaphor while saying that the dragons themselves are a metaphor for a burning sword instead of Lightbringer being an actual sword. 

I'm not saying that Dany is not AAR...I'm simply saying that at this point, they both have their sets of believers who have never even heard of the other...and if both are instrumental to the War for the Dawn, why would their believers be wrong?  Because you can pick and choose what you like and don't like for this requirement in the prophecy, but it doesn't matter in the end.  Both of them will probably play a crucial role in the War for the Dawn, and we may never get any clarification on who was what.  To me, it really doesn't matter if we do at this point.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, blckp said:

its pretty obvious who is ice and who is fire,

ice= nights king champion of great other, fire = daenerys champion of fiery red god ,a song of ice and fire =tale of upcoming clash

 

Whilst I strongly believe Dany is Fire, it is by no means 'obvious' as you say. Personally, I think Jon is Ice and the climax will be a clash between the two, but another highly plausible theory is that 'A Song of Ice and Fire' refers to Jon as the balancing force. That interpretation could refer to Bran, too.

 

And sj

Quote

The very fact that Jon has Targaryen blood means that he could be the dragon from stone, as well.

Nope, that's not "fact" at all, not currently anyway. I'm beginning to have my doubt and am leaning towards Arthur Dayne being his father!

[blckp]

16 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Whilst I strongly believe Dany is Fire, it is by no means 'obvious' as you say. Personally, I think Jon is Ice and the climax will be a clash between the two, but another highly plausible theory is that 'A Song of Ice and Fire' refers to Jon as the balancing force. That interpretation could refer to Bran, too.

 

And sj

Nope, that's not "fact" at all, not currently anyway. I'm beginning to have my doubt and am leaning towards Arthur Dayne being his father!

then what is night king and white walkers? lol jon snow's cousins? its song= tale which dont exist yet

with what force? poor hungry peasants of north? he barely even can fight against likes of bolton, while dany even without 3 dragon pretty much  can crubstomp whole 7 kingdom, i just dont see clash

[House Cambodia]

3 minutes ago, blckp said:

then what is night king and white walkers? lol jon snow's cousins? its song= tale which dont exist yet

with what force? poor hungry peasants of north? he barely even can fight against likes of bolton, while dany even without 3 dragon pretty much  can crubstomp whole 7 kingdom, i just dont see clash

I outline my thoughts in this thread here

 

The Endgame - a thought

[sj4iy]

2 hours ago, blckp said:

lady stone heart says hi, and who knows how many in off screen ,

beric has been resurrected many times yet seems not so different , cant really tell what he lost, so its moot guess,

i doubt jon snow can stand against WW with 2k man and 1 valiryan sword, makes no sense even in GOT fantasy world

its pretty obvious who is ice and who is fire,

ice= nights king champion of great other, fire = daenerys champion of fiery red god ,a song of ice and fire =tale of upcoming clash

whole 5 season daenerys has been accumulating power and season 6 she still accumulating power, and there is no real challenger for her to use all her might in essos and westeros, at this point she pretty much crubstomps anyone so whats the use of her getting more and more powerful? kinda obvious though

 

1. Lady Stoneheart doesn't count because:

a. She's not in the show, and

b. She was brought back by Beric who gave his life-force to her.  She wasn't resurrected in the same form or fashion.

2. Beric can't even remember the person he was in love with.  That's a pretty obvious change.

3. I never said he could, and that's a pretty pointless comparison because he's only currently fighting Ramsay, not the WW.  By the time the WW fight roles around, he will undoubtedly have the North and many more behind him.  But that still won't be enough.  And Dany couldn't stand against the WW with her army alone, either.  This is an enemy who can use everyone who falls in battle against you.  It's pretty clear that humanity will have to join forces to defeat the WW, so this argument is a moot one.

4. Nope, it's not.  Because there are multiple meanings in this title.  Dany is fire, but Jon is not only 'ice'.  He's clearly ice and fire.  And Jon has been fighting the White Walkers since season one and Dany knows absolutely nothing about them at this point.  She will eventually, but she won't be the ONLY champion fighting for humanity.  Hell, we still need two other people riding dragons at this point, so she can't be the only one by default.

But yeah, Jon is totally not going to factor into this despite the fact that we had an episode where the Night's King saw him defeat a White Walker in battle and stared long and hard at him.  No foreshadowing there, at all.

4. The whole of her story arc has been her accumulating power then having it slowly taken from her since she hasn't yet learned how to properly rule.  She liberated Slaver's Bay...it went back to slavery and she was run out of Meereen by the Sons of the Harpy.  You can only curbstomp so many people before they will rise up against you.  Now she has a bigger army.  Will that be important in the War for the Dawn?  Of course it will.  But she can't win the War for the Dawn with a Dothraki army alone.  She couldn't even win it with a Dothraki army and her Unsullied alone.

Jon's arc was not about accumulating power, but learning how to lead and do what's necessary over what's honorable.  His purpose wasn't to amass an army and conquer...it was to save the people of Westeros.  And he did...he saved Westeros from being invaded by 100,000 wildlings, and he saved as many Wildlings as he could from the White Walkers.  Now his job is to save the North from Ramsay Bolton.  He'll be proclaimed King in the North, no doubt.  And then he will very likely start working towards preparing for the War for the Dawn.  There's also the fact that he half Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and that will have to come into play at some point in this story...otherwise it would not be pointless to include it as the biggest mystery of the series.

There's no way that Dany ALONE can be 'savior and champion of humanity'.  There's no way that Jon will not be just as important in the War for the Dawn as Dany.  It just makes no sense given their respective story arcs.

[the tower of albion]

Just a thought: In the books  Moqorro heals Victarion's life threatening wound thus demonstrating his value. In the show Kinvara will heal Jorah's greyscale thus demonstrating the red gods value.

On a book related thought. If there are three dragons. Dany, Aegon and (possible) Jon and they are aligned with 3 separate faiths the red god, the seven and the old gods - could this be the actual real war for the dawn?

[sj4iy]

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Whilst I strongly believe Dany is Fire, it is by no means 'obvious' as you say. Personally, I think Jon is Ice and the climax will be a clash between the two, but another highly plausible theory is that 'A Song of Ice and Fire' refers to Jon as the balancing force. That interpretation could refer to Bran, too.

 

And sj

Nope, that's not "fact" at all, not currently anyway. I'm beginning to have my doubt and am leaning towards Arthur Dayne being his father!

And I believe that the show will reveal R+L=J this season so I'm not even worried about it.

[Jon leaves the Watch]

3 hours ago, blckp said:

its pretty obvious who is ice and who is fire,

ice= nights king champion of great other, fire = daenerys champion of fiery red god ,a song of ice and fire =tale of upcoming clash

The thing is, the song of Ice and Fire is not about a clash of Ice and Fire. It is about the combining of the power of Ice and Fire. I am a firm believer in R+L=J. Based on all the facts in the books there is no other option that makes sense. However, I know this is about the show, but a major detail such as this can not be changed for the show and still end up at the same conclusion as the books.

The song of Ice and Fire is Jon. Rhaegar (Fire)  + Lyanna (Ice).

[Pile-O-Starks]

6 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Or ...... wait for it,

 

With Bran being able to understand the POV of the WWs, Jon will realise that they're on the same side - both WWs and Westerosi in the know want to stave off the impending Long Night (which is why Wildings, WWs  et al up north are moving south). The wights will be the mass weapons you require, and the meaningful war, the Armageddon will be waged against the antichrist Azor Ahai, aka Daenerys.

Yeah, but... Hardhome. If the WW and Men are on the same side, that was sure a funny way to introduce yourself.

I think big point of the books and show is that there's a difference between the sniveling, petty "evil" that men create (e.g. Cersei and Ramsay) and a real existential threat. The WW are that threat that nullifies all the evils men do to one another.

[The Bastard Dayne]

12 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

We don't know the full history of the Daynes. In the books, they are an older house that goes back to the first men.  Even older than the Targaryens.  The great war against the others is called The Long Night. What ends the night?  "Dawn" or daybreak. In the books Dawn is a pale milk glass sword. Looks very similar to the White Walkers swords. Many believe that Dawn was the original Stark sword Ice that was used to fight the Others long ago. My personal belief is that the Daynes are just the caretakers of this sword and when the time comes someone will rise as the Sword of the Morning to fight the Others/White Walkers during the Long Night. Now the show may not incorporate the actual sword Dawn but I still think Jon can carry the mantle of the Sword of the Morning and fight the Nights King in a one on one fight to save humanity.  So in essence Jon can be Dany's "sword" as you suggest. He'll just carry the same mantle that the greatest knight in the recent history of Westeros carried. 

 

  Hide contents

Also, I know R+L=J is what most believe to be the secret to Jon's parentage.  But what if Jon is actually the son of Lyanna and Arthur Dayne?  Thus he'd be a Dayne (who actually share similar bloodlines with Targaryens) and definitely in line to carry the Dayne mantle of the Sword of the Morning.  Also could Dawn be located in Lyanna's tomb in the crypts of Winterfell?  Just waiting for Jon to discover it after learning about his mother.  

 

Not bad. Had similar ideas myself, for quite a while actually.

 

But now, my own belief  is that Jon is the Prince that was Promised.

And Dany is his " flaming sword pulled from the fire " Lightbringer.

After all, when did we first see Dany really come into her power/who she was meant to be ( Mother of Dragons )? It was when she emerged from Drogo's funeral pyre with her three children.

 

/shrugs

Just my thoughts.

 

 

 

[Darksky]

4 hours ago, blckp said:

then what is night king and white walkers? lol jon snow's cousins? its song= tale which dont exist yet

with what force? poor hungry peasants of north? he barely even can fight against likes of bolton, while dany even without 3 dragon pretty much  can crubstomp whole 7 kingdom, i just dont see clash

 Daenerys is ASOIAF's Special Snowflake, one of the biggest Mary Sues in the history of literature, who is given plot gifts (unearned) time and time again.

If by some miracle she gets her Dothraki horde to Westeros (another easy plot gift out of convenience), she will be an invader. Unleashing an army of rapists, savages and pillagers on Westeros will make her a villain. She's already getting there by how satisfying burning people is to her. She does that for power and with a smirk on her lips. She's the true daughter of the Mad King. Beginning to think Viserys would have been the lesser of two evils for Westeros.

She is fire, White Walkers are ice. And Jon's ice and fire.

Characters have been struggling and fighting against the threat from beyond the Wall for 5 books/6 seasons (Jon's arc has been all about it since the beginning) while Daenerys has been making a mess out of Essos, if you think the plot will have them pale in prominence to make way for Daenerys to arrive at the 11th hour and save the day, you don't know much about this story. This is not Martin's style. That kind of plot development would just ruin the books/show.

Because Daenerys checks off the Azor Ahai Reborn list so neatly and literally, it's safe to say it's not her. Or Azor Ahai Reborn is poised to be the bad guy.

Anyway, I call BS on all the prophecies. They're a cheap narrative device. And like GRRM said, they're not to be taken literally.

[Alex, Third of His Name]

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Whilst I strongly believe Dany is Fire, it is by no means 'obvious' as you say. Personally, I think Jon is Ice and the climax will be a clash between the two, but another highly plausible theory is that 'A Song of Ice and Fire' refers to Jon as the balancing force. That interpretation could refer to Bran, too.

 

And sj

Nope, that's not "fact" at all, not currently anyway. I'm beginning to have my doubt and am leaning towards Arthur Dayne being his father!

Why would Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna and then have Arthur Dayne be the father? Why would that really be some kind of big secret that needs to be hidden?

[Alex, Third of His Name]

I think its obvious that Dany is the Prince that was Promised. She was "born" (more like reborn) amidst smoke and salt and woke Dragons from stone. Jon hasn't done anything like that (and unless his resurrection in the book is dramatically different from the show, idk if he ever will).

[Jon leaves the Watch]

1 hour ago, Alex, Third of His Name said:

I think its obvious that Dany is the Prince that was Promised. She was "born" (more like reborn) amidst smoke and salt and woke Dragons from stone. Jon hasn't done anything like that (and unless his resurrection in the book is dramatically different from the show, idk if he ever will).

It is very likely that Dany is the PtWP. However, I think that the PtWP and Azor Ahai reborn are separate people that will come together or at least work together in defeating the Others.

[messem]

1 hour ago, Alex, Third of His Name said:

I think its obvious that Dany is the Prince that was Promised. She was "born" (more like reborn) amidst smoke and salt and woke Dragons from stone. Jon hasn't done anything like that (and unless his resurrection in the book is dramatically different from the show, idk if he ever will).

When Jon was born his mother died. I think it is save to assume that some tears were rolling. There you have the salt. After that the ToJ was probably burnt down. There you have the smoke. Or whatever. 

[LadyAlisande]

Perhaps in this episode, Bran's vision of the Night King will start to change the narrative. Maybe the Night King will communicate to Bran that the White Walkers are not evil, but that in fact it's the red faith that is the real threat, and the Others are amassing to fight them and defend the world from them. Making Daenerys, Mel and the red faith the villains, and the Night King allied with Bran and Jon the heroes.

Just an idea, not saying I believe it will go down this way. But it's possible. Dany seems to be getting more and more ruthless and violent, while Jon has maintained his moral center and humanity to a greater extent, better positioning him as the hero of the story and her as, potentially, the villain. 

[TheLastLibrarian]

Maybe the prophecy needs two PtWPs, one Fire PtWP (Danny) and another Ice PtWP (Jon) to win against the NK?

or a male and a female like the original Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa?

[Lady Lyanna Mormont]

12 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

I'm not. For me he plays an absolutely crucial role in being the only one who can liaise between the humans and WWs.

This theory is just bizarre. They turned a bunch of people into wights, attacked Hardhome... but are actually allies? I think GRRM is trying to show that there is no sheer good or evil and sometimes is survival mode. I think that whatever Bran discovers about The Others is what's gonna make him go back south.

3 hours ago, Darksky said:

Anyway, I call BS on all the prophecies. They're a cheap narrative device. And like GRRM said, they're not to be taken literally.

Totally agree!! To me, this whole Azor Ahai theory is just boring nonsense. They're in the story to give some depth and background but that's it. I don't think it's ever mentioned on the show, is it?

8 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Nope, that's not "fact" at all, not currently anyway. I'm beginning to have my doubt and am leaning towards Arthur Dayne being his father!

Why would Dayne get involved with the woman his prince kidnapped? He's not only good friends with Rhaegar but he's also a member of the Kingsguard, where the knights are sworn for life to protect and obey the royal family. Dayne is also known for being very respectful and honorable. Rhaegar left Lyanna to go into battle so if she really was pregnant then it was during that period which makes very unlikely for Arthur to go behind the prince's back.

[Darksky]

3 hours ago, Alex, Third of His Name said:

I think its obvious that Dany is the Prince that was Promised. She was "born" (more like reborn) amidst smoke and salt and woke Dragons from stone. Jon hasn't done anything like that (and unless his resurrection in the book is dramatically different from the show, idk if he ever will).

Daenerys fitting the prophecy to a T and in a literal manner makes her an unlikely candidate. That's how Martin rolls.

Jon has actually fought against the main threat, he killed wights, he killed a White Walker. Daenerys doesn't even know they exist. She's been busy bossing her minions around, occasionally burning people and rolling in the sack with Daario.

Jon has faced the threat up close, if Daenerys ever gets a wake up call and joins the battle against WW, she still won't be getting her hands dirty, she won't be going up close since she's no warrior. She will do things on top of a dragon, which is a cop-out to me. A cheap way to have a fighting chance.