Pink Letter/Northern Conspiracy Theory

[Valatour]

if Umbers have currently turned for the Boltons, how does that play out if/when Greatjon is back on the scene? Because that could all play out before/during the battle for Winterfell. I would guess currently there is no doubt the Umbers have sided with Ramsey but would expect that to change should Greatjon enter stage left.

[Philpenn]

Though the show did not, Imdb listed the Umber as the Smalljon.  Since the character said his Dad died, the Greatjon is dead.

[Jack Bauer 24]

8 minutes ago, Valatour said:

if Umbers have currently turned for the Boltons, how does that play out if/when Greatjon is back on the scene? Because that could all play out before/during the battle for Winterfell. I would guess currently there is no doubt the Umbers have sided with Ramsey but would expect that to change should Greatjon enter stage left.

Greatjon is dead. Did you actually watch this scene?

[RoamingRonin]

2 hours ago, Fexyr said:

I believe that Smalljon is a traitor, yes, but the direwolf head was too small. Look how big Shaggydog's head already was back in season 2. 

 http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/File:Summer_and_Shaggy.jpg

46 minutes ago, Philpenn said:

^^  Great screen grab.  If there's no trick being played by Umber, then that's a massive fuck up by the show.

It's not "massive" mistake. They just made the prop too small. A massive mistake is Melisandre taking off her necklace for that bath scene a few seasons a go and not reverting to her true form. This is a minor inconsistency. 

13 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

People are just trying to figure out a way it isn't true and Rickon isn't totally f***ed. I would also like for this to be the case for a few reasons:

• I am tired of Starks dying.
• I am tired of direwolves dying.
• Killing a direwolf outside of the narrative is annoying (to me).

But all that said, I have read the books and watch the show, so I get that there is no particular concern for giving me the warm-and-fuzzies. Rickon is toast. As stated, it makes no sense to deliver the presumptive Lord Stark to Ramsay if you're trying to defeat Ramsay. It's easy to get caught up in the whole "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" thing, but it's hard to imagine the Umbers would go to these lengths to ensure it. RIP Rickon.

True, he is screwed. If Jon doesn't surrender himself and Sansa, Rickon dies. If Jon does surrender himself and Sansa, all three of them die. I believe Rickon is going to die in the books so I'm already kind of prepared for his demise. 

9 minutes ago, Marc Cannon said:

if Umbers have currently turned for the Boltons, how does that play out if/when Greatjon is back on the scene? Because that could all play out before/during the battle for Winterfell. I would guess currently there is no doubt the Umbers have sided with Ramsey but would expect that to change should Greatjon enter stage left.

The Greatjon is dead. Smalljon Umber is Lord of the Last Hearth now and he gave Rickon to Ramsay.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Director basically confirming Ramsay wrote the letter in an article posted on WiC. I know the tin foil hatters will say "it's a lie!!! They lied about Jon Snow!!!", but it's EXACTLY as this show has always done, simple plot devices for simple plots.

 

His answer: a resounding No. “This I can tell you without any concern [of spoilers]. That letter was written by Ramsay,” Sackheim told Tech Insider.

It’s the ignition, or trigger, in terms of them going through the process of taking Winterfell back. How they’re going to take Winterfell back, I can’t say. But it’s the beginning of that process.

Smalljon is a "traitor". Shaggy is dead with an arguable small and probably several times over reused wolfshead prop. Osha is dead because they need to thin the cast. Rickon is captured and turned over because they needed a catalyst to push Jon forward towards Bastard Bowl.

"I'm tired of fighting"

They have Rickon.

"I'm going to fight"

[Xarkar]

17 hours ago, joaozinm said:

Are u prepared for the part where Jon "Stark" travel to the houses of the north calling for help and then the lords:

"wtf dude, you should be at castle black, desertor! i will have your head"

JS: "i died. now i am free from my vow!"

NL: "Do you think i am an idiot?"

Sir davos: "i saw with my own eyes"

NL: "oh ok, i will join you then"

 

Be prepared.

And that is why Sansa will be the one asking for help, not Jon.

 

[Xarkar]

But why now.

Lets assume the Umbers are traitors.  Why wait for Ramsay to kill Roose.  If the Umbers came to Roose, and delivered Rickon to him, the Umbers would have gained FAR more out of hte situation.  Roose is no idiot, he would actually be able to USE Rickon.

Ramsay is an idiot, with no strategy.  He proves that when he says he wants to march to CB and kill Jon.  Roose responds with,"and rally every northern house to their cause".  Roose was smart, Ramsay isnt.

 

Second, IF the Umbers are traiters... why the hell not just show up, bend the knee, kiss his finger and keep Rickon to yourself?  Would have accomplished the exact same thing.  Ramsay would have welcomed them with open arms.

 

The only way i can make sense of this, is that D&D simply need Rickon to be at WF, to move the plot along.  Rickon is with the Umbers, so the only way to do that is what they did. 

 

 

[Xarkar]

56 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Greatjon is dead. Did you actually watch this scene?

Smalljon said he was dead.

A pity he died off screen. (or did he)?

 

 

 

[White Harbors Wrath]

43 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

But why now.

Because now the wildlings are a problem...they weren't before and are now. If you suddenly have a problem you can't easily deal with on your own, you may decide to make common cause with a lesser enemy to defeat a greater one.

Lets assume the Umbers are traitors.  Why wait for Ramsay to kill Roose.  If the Umbers came to Roose, and delivered Rickon to him, the Umbers would have gained FAR more out of hte situation.  Roose is no idiot, he would actually be able to USE Rickon.

"Your father was a cunt"...they obviously thought Roose was a level of traitor above them and bore a grudge against him. It doesn't have to be the most well laid out reason but Umber gave a reason.

Ramsay is an idiot, with no strategy.  He proves that when he says he wants to march to CB and kill Jon.  Roose responds with,"and rally every northern house to their cause".  Roose was smart, Ramsay isnt.

This literally has no bearing what so ever on why Umber is there. He wants help dealing with wildlings, if Snow is the cause of this then he can take common cause with Ramsay to beat back wildlings AND Snow along with them. Ramsay/Roose are worried about a dynastic legacy, they need houses to fall in line in order to achieve this or they'll be dealing with civil war for years to come. Umber wont kneel and could give two shits about this, he wants Ramsays help in self preservation.

Second, IF the Umbers are traiters... why the hell not just show up, bend the knee, kiss his finger and keep Rickon to yourself?  Would have accomplished the exact same thing.  Ramsay would have welcomed them with open arms.

Again...he clearly was not interested in kissing Ramsays ass. Ramsay needs the Umbers to accomplish his goal...the Umbers need Ramsays troops. If the Umbers are not interested in becoming liege's to a family of cunts they distrust...the certainly can align with them briefly to eliminate the immediate threat.

The only way i can make sense of this, is that D&D simply need Rickon to be at WF, to move the plot along.  Rickon is with the Umbers, so the only way to do that is what they did. 

Now you're onto something. As the director said above, the letter (and Rickon) are a catalyst to get Jon and Sansa moving forward. Anyone who's been paying attention to the show should have seen this a mile away. There's nothing surprising about any of it. It doesn't have to be the best reason, it just has to be a reason...and out of all the nonsensical twists and developments in the show adaptation, this is one of the rare flesh out ones that ALMOST makes perfect sense in the context of the SHOW characters. People are just so starved for something resembling the books and an end to Stark suffering they're looking for things to be there that D & D are completely incapable of.

 

 

 

[dbunting]

I can't see why the Umbers would hand over Rickon if they were loyal to the Starks. The more you look at it the less sense it makes. Ramsey has to kill Rickon, he can't have any Starks around to challenge him for the North.

And the letter was different in the show than the books in more ways than one. In the books there was a smear of pink wax, in the show it was clearly the flayed man seal(yes it can be faked I know this).

The other thing to look at is why would the Umbers think Jon would leave the NW to come south? In the book there are some members of the northern families "visiting" the wall and watching Jon to see what kind of man he is, in the show this never happened.

[MoonWoman]

I think the Umbers are just traitors in the show, just as they are presented. But why have them in at all? Just to bring Rickon? Why not just have some Bolton men show up and say "Hey look what we found?" I suppose it makes the odds looked stacked in Ramsay's favor but it just doesn't make much sense to have the Umbers show up, not kneel, but give over Rickon as a gift - a gift for what? Help against the wildlings? That seems a little flimsy to me. The show takes the easy way out lots of the time so I don't understand why this is (at least to me) unnecessarily convoluted. 

[Jack Bauer 24]

2 hours ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

Director basically confirming Ramsay wrote the letter in an article posted on WiC. I know the tin foil hatters will say "it's a lie!!! They lied about Jon Snow!!!", but it's EXACTLY as this show has always done, simple plot devices for simple plots.

 

His answer: a resounding No. “This I can tell you without any concern [of spoilers]. That letter was written by Ramsay,” Sackheim told Tech Insider.

It’s the ignition, or trigger, in terms of them going through the process of taking Winterfell back. How they’re going to take Winterfell back, I can’t say. But it’s the beginning of that process.

Smalljon is a "traitor". Shaggy is dead with an arguable small and probably several times over reused wolfshead prop. Osha is dead because they need to thin the cast. Rickon is captured and turned over because they needed a catalyst to push Jon forward towards Bastard Bowl.

"I'm tired of fighting"

They have Rickon.

"I'm going to fight"

Because you know...characters are there to move the plot forward. This has been happening since the beginning of literature/television. Is there a reason why you are not understanding this basic concept?

[Valatour]

3 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Greatjon is dead. Did you actually watch this scene?

There is no scene where he dies. He is quite likely dead, but until that happens, the option is there to bring him back. Unlikely I know, but seeing as the general consensus is we dont want Bolton led Umbers, then one way to get them turned back, is to bring Greatjon back.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Just now, Valatour said:

There is no scene where he dies. He is quite likely dead, but until that happens, the option is there to bring him back. Unlikely I know, but seeing as the general consensus is we dont want Bolton led Umbers, then one way to get them turned back, is to bring Greatjon back.

Smalljon said he died in that scene. Off the show we know the actor was a douche and was very hard to schedule on top of that from various reports. Combine both those things and Beinoff and Weiss decided it wasn't worth the trouble of bringing the douche back and killed him off screen.

[iceheart91]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any tricks or NCT going on. Smalljon Umber is just a traitorous asshole, as are the Karstarks. It will probably be House Bolton/Umber/Karstark/Manderly vs. House Stark/Mormont/Arryn/ and the Wildlings in the big battle. 

[TickTak7]

I believe some of you guys are over-thinking this badly. 

The show needed Rickon at WInterfell to progress the plot (give Team Jon/Sansa a reason to go South). 

So traitor Umber delivers Rickon to Winterfell. 

That's it. 

That's also Shaggydog's head. Rickon and Shaggy have literally been forgotten characters for several years - they aren't nearly important enough that some grand conspiracy would center around their characters. 

 

[White Harbors Wrath]

1 hour ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Because you know...characters are there to move the plot forward. This has been happening since the beginning of literature/television. Is there a reason why you are not understanding this basic concept?

Not even sure what you're addressing? I was noting even the director debunking the GNC and explaining that it was a way to move characters forward...since this board is ripe with tin foil hats thinking D&D suddenly got depth.

[Xarkar]

The sad part is Shaggydog... poor guy.  Makes me wonder what role, if ANY the wolves are going to have in the future.

 

[The Arthur Smith]

28 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

The sad part is Shaggydog... poor guy.  Makes me wonder what role, if ANY the wolves are going to have in the future.

 

Unfortunately dead. Ghost will die in the Snowbowl. Summer, god knows what is he doing, but probably get one scene and then die. Nymeria aboard on Gendry's boat and Gendry will row that boat until the end when spring comes.

[Jack Bauer 24]

15 minutes ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Unfortunately dead. Ghost will die in the Snowbowl. Summer, god knows what is he doing, but probably get one scene and then die. Nymeria aboard on Gendry's boat and Gendry will row that boat until the end when spring comes.

You read the scripts?