(SPOILER) Why do the Children of the Forest protect Bran?

[Ninerings]

1 hour ago, The Imp slap said:

All this magic and the COTF still can't fix Bran's spine...

Bwaaaahahahahahahaha

[LePezzy66]

4 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Obsidian spear tip, that poor white Walker, he seems to be the only one that ever dies.  

Hahahah! Thanks! I must have missed that.

It's weird that the Children didn't grab those as well though. You'd think they know what a good weapon against WW would be, or why someone decided to make spears with obsidian..

[Nymeria-of-Royne]

On 5/24/2016 at 10:06 AM, JonSnowed said:

I'm not yet convinced the white walkers are pure evil even if D&D did hint at this during the inside the episode. I prefer to look at it that we know where they came from and why but we still don't understand their current motives.

I agree.  Specifically since George is wildly known as, not subscribing to "evil vs good" or "black vs white" or religion for that matter.  Nothing is ever what it seems in ASOIAF and D&D can write their silly heads off but they can't write out complete major plots and themes of the series. 

[Conchobar]

On 23/05/2016 at 4:05 AM, tmug said:

So my takeaway from this episode is that the whole "Stark" family is not as good as they seem. Sansa definitely stood out, I think LF has some sick evil like Ramsey, I dont think he has any good intentions for team Stark. Bad news for team Stark when that Vale armies come and wipe them out.

Rituals of FM exact same as what the Red Women did to Jon. I called it after this season w/. Drowned God is exactly what Jon did, but the Iron Born's ritual that is a near-drowning experience some people have. I don't believe Euron was resurrected in anyway. Another religious zealot group they are - connection to Rhi'lor created.

I think Jon is another fake-Stannis, possibly Dany fake as well, except her similar immunity to fire. Dany = an Other? Dany is not immune to Dragon fire so neither are the WW. I think Dragons win vs. the Others. Jon has not shown to be immune to fire, yet. 

The first WW created had blonde hair, I dont think he could have been a "Stark". Does this point over to House Lannister?

Bran is the new Marty McFly apparently. He made Hodor what did to save himself, that was his purpose in his life. He knows how to warg into things through time and place. Powerful enough to see through trees now, i believe. There goes the CotF/WW on the same side now theories. 

What?? You honestly think that every Stark for thousands of years didn't have blonde hair?

[Zenthious]

On 5/23/2016 at 9:10 PM, sunstonekey said:

If they created the White Walkers to destroy the humans then why do they want Bran to live?

They used humans to create a white walker. It seems humans are more malleable than they realize in the series. So, maybe what the cotf are doing is taking someone with greensight and augmenting him into another weapon. In the books they feed him a paste to enhance his ability to warg the weirwoods. Maybe this has something to do with being able to warg an army large enough to fight the army of dead thralls the NK controlls.

[Visenya the Dragon]

On 5/25/2016 at 11:09 AM, Zenthious said:

They used humans to create a white walker. It seems humans are more malleable than they realize in the series. So, maybe what the cotf are doing is taking someone with greensight and augmenting him into another weapon. In the books they feed him a paste to enhance his ability to warg the weirwoods. Maybe this has something to do with being able to warg an army large enough to fight the army of dead thralls the NK controlls.

I like this. I have been questioning why the COTF now need men(Bran) to stop them. Consdering the COTF have the power of greenseeing. I assume they are the ones who had the power first. I think it's possible once the childern of the forest realized the could not control WW, and they met with man to make a pact. I think the COTF married into either the Starks or Blackwoods. And the Night king is their ancestor. But all mankind needs to come together to beat them. I say Bran, Jon and Dany are meant to bring all men together.

I also wonder why the COTH are not in the position Bloodraven is. How is it Bran and Bloodraven are more powerful then they are.

Is there something about Stark blood the WW touched Bran,  even though it was a dream. He still has the mark on hid arm. So with Bran having the mark and WW touching him. We haven seen what happens when they touch you. You become one of them. But Bran did not. Maybe I am thinking to much into it all. 

[NSR or FD]

On 5/24/2016 at 9:39 AM, WingedShadow said:

They look similar, but they're not the exact same. Probably because they're Craster's sons. 

This, people need glasses or something. It obviously different faces, just similar because they are WW lol

[RoamingRonin]

On May 24, 2016 at 2:47 PM, LePezzy66 said:

Hahahah! Thanks! I must have missed that.

It's weird that the Children didn't grab those as well though. You'd think they know what a good weapon against WW would be, or why someone decided to make spears with obsidian..

But the Children were fighting with obsidian spears. It's just that the White Walker had armor and the blades can't pierce that on the show. 

On May 25, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Nymeria-of-Royne said:

I agree.  Specifically since George is a wildly known as not subscribing to "evil vs good" "black vs white"  or religion for that matter.  Nothing is ever what it seems in ASOIAF and D&D can write their silly heads off but they can't write out complete major plots and themes of the series. 

The "grey area" is the origin of the White Walkers, not the White Walkers themselves. Those that argue this isn't what George would do are totally missing what George is actually doing. 

They might be pure evil but none of them asked to be that way. We don't know who the Night's King was before he was turned but we know Craster's babies were all innocent sacrifices.   

[Nymeria-of-Royne]

14 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

The "grey area" is the origin of the White Walkers, not the White Walkers themselves. Those that argue this isn't what George would do are totally missing what George is actually doing. 

They might be pure evil but none of them asked to be that way. We don't know who the Night's King was before he was turned but we know Craster's babies were all innocent sacrifices.   

I'm not sure what you mean.  I thought the Origin of the White walkers was revealed. one (or more) were men who were magically turned into White Walkers by The Children of the Forest as weapons for their cause against human Men.  We have known a long time (thanks to more show spoilers) the White Walkers make grown up WW's by the Craster line of baby boys by Craster Family members.  So, WW's are all inbreds.  We know there was a female White Walker from long ago, just not HER origin. 

The Night's King could easily have been a "bad" guy but, if we know one thing from George it's that even the worst people come from a more a place of innocence once and therefore can not be "pure evil."  There's a series of events that hut that person to become such a horrible person. Such as Ramsey.  Jamie obviously appeared evil at 1st, but we learned he's got a lot of good.  cersei too actually.  I suppose if The Night's King IS a Bolton....he might have been "pure evil."

[RoamingRonin]

1 hour ago, Nymeria-of-Royne said:

I'm not sure what you mean.  I thought the Origin of the White walkers was revealed. one (or more) were men who were magically turned into White Walkers by The Children of the Forest as weapons for their cause against human Men.  We have known a long time (thanks to more show spoilers) the White Walkers make grown up WW's by the Craster line of baby boys by Craster Family members.  So, WW's are all inbreds.  We know there was a female White Walker from long ago, just not HER origin. 

The Night's King could easily have been a "bad" guy but, if we know one thing from George it's that even the worst people come from a more a place of innocence once and therefore can not be "pure evil."  There's a series of events that hut that person to become such a horrible person. Such as Ramsey.  Jamie obviously appeared evil at 1st, but we learned he's got a lot of good.  cersei too actually.  I suppose if The Night's King IS a Bolton....he might have been "pure evil."

I'm countering the idea that the White Walkers aren't evil because "George RR Martin doesn't do good vs. evil storylines". While I do believe the White Walkers are pure evil, I don't think that means this will be considered a good vs. evil story. 

What makes this conflict more than good vs. evil is where the White Walkers came from and what their presence incites.  

[ummester]

2 hours ago, NSR or FD said:

This, people need glasses or something. It obviously different faces, just similar because they are WW lol

It's being racist against WWs - they all look the same to me  But that's OK, because they are the Other.

[GeorgeIAF]

On 5/23/2016 at 5:38 AM, dooog said:

How did the children ever have trouble with humans in the first place, they have grenades

Maybe those grenades were developed only after the WW turned agains them as a fighting tool to be used by the CoTF.

[UnmaskedLurker]

13 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

I'm countering the idea that the White Walkers aren't evil because "George RR Martin doesn't do good vs. evil storylines". While I do believe the White Walkers are pure evil, I don't think that means this will be considered a good vs. evil story. 

What makes this conflict more than good vs. evil is where the White Walkers came from and what their presence incites.  

There is an interesting theory out there that the Others came "out of hiding" to attack mankind due to their own prophecy indicating that a man would be the downfall of the Others (apparently that man being Jon). There supposedly are strong clues in the prologue to the first book (GoT) that the Others are looking for someone who matches the description they have of this person. In the prologue, they have 5 Others there to make sure Waymar Royce is killed -- who is from a noble house and has grey eyes (just like Jon Snow). The Others don't seem to care about Will or Gared at all (quite an effort to kill one man and then leave without personally touching the other two). Why would so many Others be so determined to kill Waymar (who we can assume passed by Craster who might have given the Others the "heads up" that someone matching the description they are looking for is heading North). Also, when Jon first meets Craster when Jon is with many men from NW, Craster singles Jon out and notes that Jon looks "like a Stark" as if Craster had been charged (by the Others) to look for someone meeting this description.

Now I did not come up with this theory -- but it makes a lot of sense -- even more so given what we now know about how time travel works in this universe. Bran can see into the past -- presumably greenseers also can see into the future -- and these visions of the future are known as prophecies. People think they can affect the prophecies -- but they cannot -- they are genuine visions of the actual future from the one and only timeline. But people (and Others) don't realize this fact and try to stop the prophecy from happening. Of course, knowledge of the prophecy often is the reason that the prophecy happens (self-fulfilling prophecy). If this theory is correct, then this prophecy that the Others have seen ends up being the cause of their downfall because if they had never gotten the prophecy they would have stayed hidden and Jon Snow (and everyone else) never would have had a reason to go after the Others.

This theory casts the Others as not really evil -- or at least not "just" evil. They were originally created by the CotF to protect them from the FM. Eventually, some sort of truce occurred because the Others disappeared North for thousands of years. So the Others are not just determined to kill everyone at all cost -- something got them to go North and leave everyone alone. They come back only because they come to believe their very existence is threatened by someone from a Noble House with Grey Eyes. So they are just trying to defend themselves and stop the elimination of their race. Now, of course, their methods appear to be the methods of EVIL. I would argue perhaps more "amoral" than "immoral" given that it would mean they are using an "ends justify the means" approach rather than taking joy in trying to kill or subjugate mankind (differentiating them from Souron from LotR).

So maybe this theory is hogwash and maybe the Others are just pure evil. But given GRRM's inclinations -- and given that it would be more interesting if the Others are not just pure evil -- I hope GRRM does something like this so that the Others are more than just "evil" forces trying to destroy mankind merely to achieve world domination for the sake of world domination.

[RoamingRonin]

3 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So they are just trying to defend themselves and stop the elimination of their race.

But that's what the Children of the Forest are doing!  Seems a tad repetitive to have both of them trying to do the same thing. Besides, they aren't on the defense. They're on the offense. They're attacking first. No one is trying to eliminate them. In fact, humans are fleeing from them. 

And they don't have a "race". They magical entities that need to possess humans to exist. They were created for one simple purpose: to kill. What's worse is they're not just trying to kill humans and the Children... they want to kill all life on Earth and cover it in eternal winter. 

Lastly, if they're trying to kill everyone, everywhere because they don't want to be killed then that doesn't make you grey or sympathetic. That makes you a big fat jerk. 

Quote

So maybe this theory is hogwash and maybe the Others are just pure evil. But given GRRM's inclinations -- and given that it would be more interesting if the Others are not just pure evil -- I hope GRRM does something like this so that the Others are more than just "evil" forces trying to destroy mankind merely to achieve world domination for the sake of world domination.

Not everything about this series is grey. Not everything about it is super complicated. Some times there are bad things in this world that want to only do bad things. 

The Others are a plot device. It doesn't even matter what they want, really. It's about how humanity reacts to them. 

Quote

There is an interesting theory out there that the Others came "out of hiding" to attack mankind due to their own prophecy indicating that a man would be the downfall of the Others (apparently that man being Jon).

This is cliche and a bit lame, to be honest. The self-fulfilling prophecy is overdone in fantasy. I'd rather them just be evil. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, RoamingRonin said:

But that's what the Children of the Forest are doing!  Seems a tad repetitive to have both of them trying to do the same thing. Besides, they aren't on the defense. They're on the offense. They're attacking first. No one is trying to eliminate them. In fact, humans are fleeing from them. 

And they don't have a "race". They magical entities that need to possess humans to exist. They were created for one simple purpose: to kill. What's worse is they're not just trying to kill humans and the Children... they want to kill all life on Earth and cover it in eternal winter. 

Lastly, if they're trying to kill everyone, everywhere because they don't want to be killed then that doesn't make you grey or sympathetic. That makes you a big fat jerk. 

Not everything about this series is grey. Not everything about it is super complicated. Some times there are bad things in this world that want to only do bad things. 

The Others are a plot device. It doesn't even matter what they want, really. It's about how humanity reacts to them. 

I agree that genocide is evil. I merely wanted to argue that the Others are not "just" evil. From their point of view, they might not be engaging in this behavior just for the sake of world domination -- but because they believe that otherwise they themselves will be wiped out.

So yes, they are on the offense -- but from their point of view they might think of it more as a preemptive strike to prevent their own destruction -- as foretold in a prophecy they have. As to the term "race" -- please don't quibble over choice of words. I think my meaning was quite clear -- the elimination of all of the Others -- whether a race or magical entities or whatnot. The Others have some sense of self-identity and community -- and one can understand the desire of the Others not have all of the Others wiped out of existence -- even if the methods of protection might be evil methods. Remember that they stayed hidden for thousands of years -- so something brought them out for some reason.

I am not trying to argue that the Others are gray -- or that we should be sympathetic to them. I think killing all human beings in their path is evil no matter the underlying justification. I merely am arguing that GRRM might be giving the Others a more interesting motivation than the "villains" in other works of fiction who try to kill everyone and take over the world usually have. 

[Nettles]

I really like that idea, about the WW having their own lore and prophesies and acting upon them. It makes a lot of sense. 

It explains the NK's demonstration of power in front of Jon- look what I can do, you can't take me on. 

Probably it was Mance who disturbed them, looking for the horn of Winter. And we can suspect he was given the task by future Bran. Neat. 

 

[ummester]

14 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Not everything about this series is grey. Not everything about it is super complicated. Some times there are bad things in this world that want to only do bad things. 

Yes, like Joffrey, or Ramsay, or Little finger, or the Mountain - there are heaps of bad things that just do bad things already. Actually, most of the humans in the books and show do bad things - Jon and the High Sparrow are about the only 2 that haven't primarily acted out of self interest and even Jon seems to have changed now. The CotF also basically act out of self interest.

So it would be refreshing if the Others are actually righteous and acting entirely out of interest for something else (like the trees). It would be refreshing to see good guys in all the grey, some killing that is actually justified by a cause greater than something personal to the killers - and I think the Others are the only possible option for this.

[shadowbinding shoe]

On 28.5.2016 at 9:47 AM, ummester said:

Yes, like Joffrey, or Ramsay, or Little finger, or the Mountain - there are heaps of bad things that just do bad things already. Actually, most of the humans in the books and show do bad things - Jon and the High Sparrow are about the only 2 that haven't primarily acted out of self interest and even Jon seems to have changed now. The CotF also basically act out of self interest.

So it would be refreshing if the Others are actually righteous and acting entirely out of interest for something else (like the trees). It would be refreshing to see good guys in all the grey, some killing that is actually justified by a cause greater than something personal to the killers - and I think the Others are the only possible option for this.

It should be obvious from the color schemes. White walkers are White-hats. The Night's Watch are Black-hats.

More seriously, it's never bad when characters have a bit more depth. The WW do horrible things. But it's obvious they can think and strategize. They run campaigns, they know sword techniques, they have a language (they insult Royce in book 1 prologue). Having a bigger goal than 'kill all human' or 'freeze all life' makes them more interesting and their struggle against the rest of the world mean more. Doesn't make us want to root for them of course. I didn't cheer the Mountain just because I learned he had horrible migraines all the time. I'm still glad I got that insight into him.

[ummester]

3 hours ago, shadowbinding shoe said:

It should be obvious from the color schemes. White walkers are White-hats. The Night's Watch are Black-hats.

More seriously, it's never bad when characters have a bit more depth. The WW do horrible things. But it's obvious they can think and strategize. They run campaigns, they know sword techniques, they have a language (they insult Royce in book 1 prologue). Having a bigger goal than 'kill all human' or 'freeze all life' makes them more interesting and their struggle against the rest of the world mean more. Doesn't make us want to root for them of course. I didn't cheer the Mountain just because I learned he had horrible migraines all the time. I'm still glad I got that insight into him.

So who do you cheer?

I have seriously ran out of human characters to cheer for, they are all too flawed, too broken or have done things too irredeemable.

Rickon's ok, perhaps, but he'll probably die this season. Davos made sense until he nonsensically became a Jon fan. I'm on the High Sparrows side but don't think he is a major character and won't have that much bearing on the end.

I want to see Cersie destroyed, Jamie killed, the Mountain mutilated, Margery debased and Loras have the vanity knocked out of him. I've never liked Sansa, in books or show. Book Tryion crossed a line that made me dislike him and show Tyrion is a weak imitation. Obviously Ramsay, Little Finger and Mel are bad guys. Dany is firey destruction waiting to happen. Daario, meh, Daario is just some pussy whipped dude who can fight ok. Bran and Arya are obviously on dark paths. This leaves Jon - and I'm still pretty sure the Others will end up helping Jon anyway.

I'm not suggesting the Others have some sympathy - I'm suggesting they are probably the most righteous force in the saga but viewers/readers fail to associate with them because their cause is inhuman. It's possible for inhuman causes to be righteous, if we think outside the needs of being human.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Who do I root for wholeheartedly? Meera, Sam, I like the Manderlies (book version) even if they did some horrible things to their enemies, Jaime has his moments, Osha (she's still alive in the books, right?), Missandei. Ghost (the wolves have a bit of character.)
 There are many others I have positive feelings for even when they sink into depravity at times. It's hard to be perfect in such a cruel world. They give us a gripping story if nothing else.