Bran heads to CB, tells John about his linage?

[imaginepageant]

9 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

Howland was introduced in the ToJ flashback. Why even bother having him there if he's not going to be relevant later on?

Someone other than Ned had to kill Arthur Dayne to illustrate the ideas that 1. the "official" story may not be entirely true, and 2. Ned may not be as honest as everyone believes. This was groundwork for the R+L=J reveal later on. That someone didn't have to be Howland Reed, but the great knight they were fighting didn't have to be Arthur Dayne, either. What's the point in using different names, or not even naming them at all, when these characters in those roles exist in the books? If nothing else, it's a nice nod to the book readers.

[Nev yn]

28 minutes ago, imaginepageant said:

2. Ned may not be as honest as everyone believes.

Still not sure how this became an interpretation of that scene (by D&D or others).  Ned was portrayed as closed-lipped about everything to do with Jon and Lyanna. There's never an indication that he claimed to defeat Arthur Dayne fair and square, in the books or in the show.

[HellasLEAF]

On 5/24/2016 at 10:18 AM, Ludvig Carlson said:

In another thread, (Bloodraven's last lesson: Win) we discussed the very scene in Winterfell when Bran warged into Hodor.

One of the replies, (by Wingedshadow) which is the same as believe, said:

"It's possible, but the real reason he took him there is because Bran needed to be there to create Hodor by bridging Wylis to present day Hodor and therefore destroying his mind."

But it is the latter part of the Wingedshadow's post that interests me more:

"While they were there, the Bloodraven was apparently uploading memories into Bran, important ones that he needed to experience. So it was a sort of "loading screen" while simultaneously being important to close a time loop."

If so, he probably uploaded the rest of the TOY ...

Bran is probably heading to the wall, if he can reach it...

Do you think we will see a reunion of Jon, Sansa and Bran this season, where Bran is the one to finally tell Jon about his linage?

#justanotherr+l=jtrhead

Hmm, very possible.  I like this theory.  Or, at least the idea of Bran, Jon, Sansa + together again 

[sandpiper]

Hard to say what bran will do next. There was some stuff where the raven was suggesting he needed to go out into the world and do something, but I at least am not clear what that is. If this involves visiting Jon then he will do so and naturally tell him all he has witnessed from the past. On the other hand, Howland Reed has been set up as a man who knows something, and Jon is just setting out on a tour trying to recruit all the northern lords. So logically he must meet him. It may be we will get both. That would go some way towards dismissing disbelief amongt all and sundry over Jon's parentage, because there would be two sources. But equally, Bran has a priviliged view of events and it might be Howland will tell us more, but still not know the final secrets of what happened inside the tower. Bran might be able to show us other scenes we know nothing about yet.

Sansa already proposd herself as the true Stark to lead the northern fight against Bolton. Jon may be widely believed to be ned's son so people would follow him for that reason, but Howland's news could in fact work against their needs to have a Stark leading them. Seems likely Sansa will have to eat some of her fine words if littlefinger is to come in on their side in the fight.

 

[Pile-O-Starks]

11 hours ago, imaginepageant said:

Someone other than Ned had to kill Arthur Dayne to illustrate the ideas that 1. the "official" story may not be entirely true, and 2. Ned may not be as honest as everyone believes. This was groundwork for the R+L=J reveal later on. That someone didn't have to be Howland Reed, but the great knight they were fighting didn't have to be Arthur Dayne, either. What's the point in using different names, or not even naming them at all, when these characters in those roles exist in the books? If nothing else, it's a nice nod to the book readers.

The character didn't have to be Howland Reed, but since they decided to use Howland Reed and had him survive, they have to do something with him. The situation cannot be "Meera's father is one of two living people who know what happened at the Tower of Joy, and the only living person who was there. Also, the other person found out through tree visions so nobody will believe him. But that's cool, Howland's not going to tell anybody or ever appear in the present day." There is no point in having him there at all AND having him survive if you're not going to use him. That's just terrible storytelling. Especially on this show, which basically kills every character that no longer has anything useful to do.

[Aedam Targaryen]

30 minutes ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

The character didn't have to be Howland Reed, but since they decided to use Howland Reed and had him survive, they have to do something with him. The situation cannot be "Meera's father is one of two living people who know what happened at the Tower of Joy, and the only living person who was there. Also, the other person found out through tree visions so nobody will believe him. But that's cool, Howland's not going to tell anybody or ever appear in the present day." There is no point in having him there at all AND having him survive if you're not going to use him. That's just terrible storytelling. Especially on this show, which basically kills every character that no longer has anything useful to do.

I don't think that they HAVE to do more with him just because he survived. His purpose in the books is most likely to give us TOJ info. That doesn't mean that has to be his purpose in the show. Maybe his purpose was to save Neds life, and it would be difficult to have him save his life AND be killed. And of course if he was killed, there would never be a Jojen Reed. 

It always feels like when people say 'bad story telling' it really means 'I don't want it that way.' Also, this is the show forum, so I hate to say it, but I expect some bad story telling. 

[W1NT3RF3LL]

22 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

Howland was introduced in the ToJ flashback. Why even bother having him there if he's not going to be relevant later on? If you only needed somebody to kill Dayne, just have it be Ser Rodrick or somebody else who's already dead in the present day. Or just have it be "Ned's squire" who succumbs to his wounds shortly after killing Dayne. There's no reason to bridge anybody in the ToJ scene to the present day if they're not going to actually DO something in the present day. If Howland survives the ToJ (which it looks like he did and will) any show-only fan would think, "that guy knows the truth; he's important." Having him just disappear would be incredibly bad storytelling.

Howland Reed is going to tell SOMEBODY what happened at the ToJ. It is his sole purpose as a character, both on the show and in the book.

What if he already did?  I mean its seems he keeps to himself, but there has to be someone he speaks to that is not part of his house in Westeros.  I have to think that he had something to do with having his kids meet up with Bran and at this point in time he must have had said something after both Robert and Ned passed.  There is just no need at this point to keep it as secret as it once was.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

8 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

I don't think that they HAVE to do more with him just because he survived. His purpose in the books is most likely to give us TOJ info. That doesn't mean that has to be his purpose in the show. Maybe his purpose was to save Neds life, and it would be difficult to have him save his life AND be killed. And of course if he was killed, there would never be a Jojen Reed. 

It always feels like when people say 'bad story telling' it really means 'I don't want it that way.' Also, this is the show forum, so I hate to say it, but I expect some bad story telling. 

The problem is Reed is the only one South of the wall that knows what happened at the TOJ.  You have to think in terms of how much time is left with the show and for Bran to convince a realm on his own would be quite difficult.  Having a lord such as Howland Reed being able to confirm it would be a huge help.  To me having Jon's parentage being of such importance it would be something I would think GRRM would want to have something set in stone for people to believe in.  Simply having a crippled Stark claim that he can see in the past and prove such events wouldn't be enough in my opinion.  Then again who knows how people would think of such things once they see WW and dragons flying in the air.

[Aedam Targaryen]

9 minutes ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

The problem is Reed is the only one South of the wall that knows what happened at the TOJ.  You have to think in terms of how much time is left with the show and for Bran to convince a realm on his own would be quite difficult.  Having a lord such as Howland Reed being able to confirm it would be a huge help.  To me having Jon's parentage being of such importance it would be something I would think GRRM would want to have something set in stone for people to believe in.  Simply having a crippled Stark claim that he can see in the past and prove such events wouldn't be enough in my opinion.  Then again who knows how people would think of such things once they see WW and dragons flying in the air.

I'm not sure how important it will be to convince the realm. He might just need to convince Jon for some reason. If knowing who his parents are somehow assists Jon in defeating the WW invasion, that should be enough. The only reason his lineage should matter in the south is if he uses that info to sit on the throne, and I guess I'm not expecting that to happen/be important to Jon. From what Jon knows about WW and the Starks, if he comes out on top of this at the end, I think he'd rather rule the North from Winterfell rather than the 7 kingdoms from kings landing. But of course a lot of that reasoning is assumptions that I have. 

But I definitely agree with you, if it is important for all the lords and nobles of Westeros to know of Jons lineage, Reed will be needed. 

[doghouse]

Quote

Then again who knows how people would think of such things once they see WW and dragons flying in the air.

Ultimately, Jon's parentage doesn't matter from a political point of view. I think it will only be there to establish that he can ride dragons and not burn in the fire like Dany. Really, once the White Walkers wage havoc south of the wall, even the Lannisters and Boltons and other enemies will be begging for someone like Jon to save them. 

[W1NT3RF3LL]

Just now, doghouse said:

Ultimately, Jon's parentage doesn't matter from a political point of view. I think it will only be there to establish that he can ride dragons and not burn in the fire like Dany. Really, once the White Walkers wage havoc south of the wall, even the Lannisters and Boltons and other enemies will be begging for someone like Jon to save them. 

There is definitely more to Jon than that.  Jon wouldn't be needed at all to ride the dragons.  By what we have seen in the show Danny has been able to command all three with not much effort.  Sure, at this point they are out of control because she chained them up, but most definitely his parentage does matter from a political point of view.  We have to assume at some point him and Dany will meet, and his presence in the North will be needed and it cant be under the name of Jon Snow.  Personally Jon is the end all be all for this entire series.  This entire story has been about him.  Sure, there have been tons of different plots lines and characters and the roles that they play, but he is crucial to all of it, otherwise making it a secret of who is true parentage is and having Ned  be a traitor to his friend the king and to have to lie to his family and his wife would be asinine.  It would be all for nothing. 

[W1NT3RF3LL]

10 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

I'm not sure how important it will be to convince the realm. He might just need to convince Jon for some reason. If knowing who his parents are somehow assists Jon in defeating the WW invasion, that should be enough. The only reason his lineage should matter in the south is if he uses that info to sit on the throne, and I guess I'm not expecting that to happen/be important to Jon. From what Jon knows about WW and the Starks, if he comes out on top of this at the end, I think he'd rather rule the North from Winterfell rather than the 7 kingdoms from kings landing. But of course a lot of that reasoning is assumptions that I have. 

But I definitely agree with you, if it is important for all the lords and nobles of Westeros to know of Jons lineage, Reed will be needed. 

He is going to have to ally with Dany at some point as she controls three dragons and the army that she will most likely have at the point in time  in which they meet.  There has been so much emphasis placed on who his parentage is and hell the freaking title to the story is named after his parents (I know this is not confirmed and just my opinion but it is pretty obvious, and yes you can equate it to other things in the story) that him simply ruling the north would be so anti-climatic.  In my opinion he is the next Aegon first of his name.  I know I could very well be wrong, but to me personally it makes absolutely zero sense to go through all of this to have him just be like meh I want winterfell, now leave me be.

[Philpenn]

24 minutes ago, doghouse said:

I think it will only be there to establish that he can ride dragons and not burn in the fire like Dany.

 

Jon burns.

[doghouse]

His heart burns for Ygritte

[Pile-O-Starks]

1 hour ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

I don't think that they HAVE to do more with him just because he survived. His purpose in the books is most likely to give us TOJ info. That doesn't mean that has to be his purpose in the show. Maybe his purpose was to save Neds life, and it would be difficult to have him save his life AND be killed. And of course if he was killed, there would never be a Jojen Reed. 

It always feels like when people say 'bad story telling' it really means 'I don't want it that way.' Also, this is the show forum, so I hate to say it, but I expect some bad story telling. 

It doesn't matter what I want. I'll just leave it to Chekhov, who was certainly more of an authority on storytelling than any of us, to explain it:

"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."

Howland Reed is the rifle. On a show that promptly dispatches every character that is no longer relevant, to have him survive and do nothing with him would be, almost by definition, bad storytelling. Additionally, it would be very out-of-character for this show. Obviously they have struggled with telling some stories (Dorne, for example), but there is no reason to believe that any story they are currently telling won't have some bearing on the endgame. Otherwise, why tell it?

[Arianne B.V]

I don´t think that Bran will take Jon to the past. I´m actually really confused about all of this flashbacks in this season. I mean, even if Bran goes back and watch the entire scene and R+L=J is confirmed, and then returns to castle black (I don´t think this will happen this season... even if it seems that everyone is using flying horses or teletransportation xD)  will Jon believe it? I mean "Hi jon, I´m your little brother  and I have these awesome powers and.. well you´re actually a Targaryen AND a Stark :D"... I mean, he´s back from death but I don´t think he would believe this. 

And also, even if he does... Who else will believe this? Littlefinger? the boltons? the lannisters??  no one in the seven kingdoms will believe that a bastard like Jon is the son of Raeghar... (It would be interesting the reactions of sansa and dany of this... specially dany, in the books she could see him as his family or a rival for the throne). I don´t know what is the point, because this information must be important for the tv story; it must create a change in this season (or the next) and I don´t know how it can be. 

It´s something that we will (finally) know and it will be great, but I think that the story needs a piece of information or something to validate it... some kind of proof that will legitimate Jon. I don´t think that Reed telling the truth will be enough. 

Also... IF Littlefinger knows something (in the series)... it´s only because he was in the tower. Because, no one else knows what happened in that tower besides Ned. So I don´t think that littlefinger is the key for this.  

 

[Masha]

26 minutes ago, Arianne B.V said:

I don´t think that Bran will take Jon to the past. I´m actually really confused about all of this flashbacks in this season. I mean, even if Bran goes back and watch the entire scene and R+L=J is confirmed, and then returns to castle black (I don´t think this will happen this season... even if it seems that everyone is using flying horses or teletransportation xD)  will Jon believe it? I mean "Hi jon, I´m your little brother  and I have these awesome powers and.. well you´re actually a Targaryen AND a Stark :D"... I mean, he´s back from death but I don´t think he would believe this. 

And also, even if he does... Who else will believe this? Littlefinger? the boltons? the lannisters??  no one in the seven kingdoms will believe that a bastard like Jon is the son of Raeghar... (It would be interesting the reactions of sansa and dany of this... specially dany, in the books she could see him as his family or a rival for the throne). I don´t know what is the point, because this information must be important for the tv story; it must create a change in this season (or the next) and I don´t know how it can be. 

It´s something that we will (finally) know and it will be great, but I think that the story needs a piece of information or something to validate it... some kind of proof that will legitimate Jon. I don´t think that Reed telling the truth will be enough. 

Also... IF Littlefinger knows something (in the series)... it´s only because he was in the tower. Because, no one else knows what happened in that tower besides Ned. So I don´t think that littlefinger is the key for this.  

 

I do agree with you. Other than for personal feels, what is the point for Bran/Jon know about his heritage with NO way to prove it? IF they can't prove it with the way that everyone would convinced, why does it matter if Jon is Targeryen or not? Its not like Daemon Blackfyre, he was a Bastard but nobody doubted that he was a Targ bastard. For Jon, legitimate or not, nobody (even him) would ever believe that he is son of Rhaegar. 

The only way I can see it, if Dany is in Westeros and one of her dragons just flies off by itself and basically attaches itself to Jon. And then, have Jon to be revealed that he is son of Rhaegar.  Thats the only way I can see this happening.

 

[BulletTooth_Tony]

12 hours ago, sandpiper said:

Hard to say what bran will do next. There was some stuff where the raven was suggesting he needed to go out into the world and do something, but I at least am not clear what that is. If this involves visiting Jon then he will do so and naturally tell him all he has witnessed from the past. On the other hand, Howland Reed has been set up as a man who knows something, and Jon is just setting out on a tour trying to recruit all the northern lords. So logically he must meet him. It may be we will get both. That would go some way towards dismissing disbelief amongt all and sundry over Jon's parentage, because there would be two sources. But equally, Bran has a priviliged view of events and it might be Howland will tell us more, but still not know the final secrets of what happened inside the tower. Bran might be able to show us other scenes we know nothing about yet.

Sansa already proposd herself as the true Stark to lead the northern fight against Bolton. Jon may be widely believed to be ned's son so people would follow him for that reason, but Howland's news could in fact work against their needs to have a Stark leading them. Seems likely Sansa will have to eat some of her fine words if littlefinger is to come in on their side in the fight.

 

Greywater Watch has no army, and for all we know of the area, it could just be a hut on a lilly pad floating around... Robb didn't even seek him out, and I think if they were to even try, they'd need Meera to find it.

[Aedam Targaryen]

1 hour ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

He is going to have to ally with Dany at some point as she controls three dragons and the army that she will most likely have at the point in time  in which they meet.  There has been so much emphasis placed on who his parentage is and hell the freaking title to the story is named after his parents (I know this is not confirmed and just my opinion but it is pretty obvious, and yes you can equate it to other things in the story) that him simply ruling the north would be so anti-climatic.  In my opinion he is the next Aegon first of his name.  I know I could very well be wrong, but to me personally it makes absolutely zero sense to go through all of this to have him just be like meh I want winterfell, now leave me be.

I don't think he will say, "meh I want Winterfell," I think he'll look at the big picture and realize being the leader of the north is much more important and vital to mans survival. I don't think he would view Winterfell as a consolation prize to sitting the iron throne. But I don't think he'll be the next Aegon. If you're right about him being the next Aegon, you'd probably also be right about him not wanting Winterfell. As far as the shows concerned, we will find out fairly soon!

[W1NT3RF3LL]

Just now, Aedam Targaryen said:

I don't think he will say, "meh I want Winterfell," I think he'll look at the big picture and realize being the leader of the north is much more important and vital to mans survival. I don't think he would view Winterfell as a consolation prize to sitting the iron throne. But I don't think he'll be the next Aegon. If you're right about him being the next Aegon, you'd probably also be right about him not wanting Winterfell. As far as the shows concerned, we will find out fairly soon!

Most definitely! Even looking at the current situation he technically has shown zero interest in Winterfell not once, but twice.  Stannis legitimizing him and making him Lord of Winterfell only to have him deny it, and Stansa basically having to beg him to fight for it.  I think even though that he will find out his parentage it wont matter because by rules of succession with Bran or Rickon still alive he has not rights to it, unless Rob's note has somehow survived making him heir.   With that being said I think the way he was treated as he was brought up has had a lasting effect on him and I think that he would rather go elsewhere.