Military strengths of the Houses of Westeros

[direpupy]

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It is very much possible. Roose can have up to 1000 Karstarks crossing MC with him and up to 700 infantry at RW. But still the issue of numbers remain; He may have killed men belonging to other lords among his ~3500 and replaced it with up to 1000 Karstarks to increase his numbers from RW to MC but the second he crosses MC with 6k men (2k freys) he exceeds Theon's numbers just by the men that come North with him. Add to that the lords that join him later and also Ramsay's men and 400 Umbers then you'll see it is unlikely that he crossed MC with 4K northman.

More likely you are not taking into account the point that @Free Northman Reborn already pointed out to you, when crossing MC the are in a easy to tally up line, in WF they are not Theon probably does not really know how many men there are at WF. Not to mention that not all of Roose his strength may have marched with him to WF since it would be difficult to feed them there.

[Corvo the Crow]

37 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well no. He saw the 4000 men with Roose coming up the causeway along with the 1500 Freys. And he saw the Dustin and Ryswell armies camped at Moat Cailin, along with Ramsay's force. But the Dustin and Ryswell armies clearly didn't all accompany them to Winterfell. Just the small company guarding Lady Dustin and the Ryswell lords. And as I said above, many of the 4000 returning Northmen may have dispersed back to their homes. Since that day some Umbers joined them at Winterfell, as did some Manderlys, and as did a bunch of other lords to attend the wedding, including Lord Slate, Lady Cerwyn and the like.

So there are comings and goings. And Theon might not be privy to all of those comings and goings, and a blizzard that reduced visibility to less than a few feet. Half the time he is in some alternate state of mind, trying to regain his sanity. He is not sitting in the Maester's tower with an accounting ledger marking the latest troop movements in and out of the castle.

Anyway, between 6000 and 7000 seems to be the latest figure we are given for Roose's strength at Winterfell. I'll stick with that until further notice.

 

Quote

Roose Bolton shrugged. "Lord Wyman's litter moves at a snail's pace … and of course his lordship's health and girth do not permit him to travel more than a few hours a day, with frequent stops for meals. The Freys were anxious to reach Barrowton and be reunited with their kin. Can you blame them for riding on ahead?"

Here's for Manderlys. Do I have to add the part that Umbers and Ryswells and Cerwyns Joined Ramsay at MC? Theon has marched with them from Barrowton to Winterfell. If he had a good view during MC then he had a better one during the March with chances of overhearing talks on numbers etc.

 

29 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The above contradicts your own position. Either the 4000 are all Boltons, or they are not. And clearly they are not, because Theon says MOST of them are Boltons. Not all of them. Previously you were trying to argue down the Bolton number. Now you argue when I suggest that not all of the 4000 were Boltons. You can't have it both ways.

As I have said consistently, AT LEAST 2000 of the 4000 must be Boltons, because they are the majority of the host. And MOST LIKELY, they number around 2500 or thereabouts. Leaving around 1500 to be from other Northern Houses. I am happy to claim as many as 3000 Boltons. But let's stick with 2500 to be conservative. The 600 from the ford, and some Karstarks would likely make up the remaining men. Along with various other remnants that made their way to the army after the Twins.

No it doesn't because I do not say they are all Boltons and neither do I say there are 4000. I say there are far less than 4000 and they are Boltons and Karstarks. I am not trying to have it both ways. My stance on this is the same as it was before; two in ten can mean a wide range of numbers with the actual likely being on the lower side and Boltons and Karstarks are the only survivors and 600 at the fords have not joined unless we are told otherwise. My numbers fit quite nicely and my explanation on them have examples on the books.

It is you who contradict yourself; You take Theon's assumptions as truth only as it fits you. You do not take "five against one" nor do you take "five thousand, six"  but you take two in ten as true. Please make your mind on whether if Theon is a reliable source for numbers or not.

Also I'd like to make it clear that seeing the numbers at a glance and knowing about them from other sources would be two different things; Theon has more of a chance to err on Ramsays numbers than Rodrik's true as Rodrik says to him that he has near two thousand and he sees Ramsays men marching into the castle. The same also applies for numbers in MC and WF. When we get the two in ten he just sees the men march as he saw Ramsay's men march into the castle but in WF he had plenty of time to both see the men for many days and hear talks such as "Lord Manderly has brought 300 men it is too few". So his numbers on how many at WF would be far more accurate, thus lowering thos in MC.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Here's for Manderlys. Do I have to add the part that Umbers and Ryswells and Cerwyns Joined Ramsay at MC? Theon has marched with them from Barrowton to Winterfell. If he had a good view during MC then he had a better one during the March with chances of overhearing talks on numbers etc.

 

No it doesn't because I do not say they are all Boltons and neither do I say there are 4000. I say there are far less than 4000 and they are Boltons and Karstarks. I am not trying to have it both ways. My stance on this is the same as it was before; two in ten can mean a wide range of numbers with the actual likely being on the lower side and Boltons and Karstarks are the only survivors and 600 at the fords have not joined unless we are told otherwise. My numbers fit quite nicely and my explanation on them have examples on the books.

It is you who contradict yourself; You take Theon's assumptions as truth only as it fits you. You do not take "five against one" nor do you take "five thousand, six"  but you take two in ten as true. Please make your mind on whether if Theon is a reliable source for numbers or not.

Also I'd like to make it clear that seeing the numbers at a glance and knowing about them from other sources would be two different things; Theon has more of a chance to err on Ramsays numbers than Rodrik's true as Rodrik says to him that he has near two thousand and he sees Ramsays men marching into the castle. The same also applies for numbers in MC and WF. When we get the two in ten he just sees the men march as he saw Ramsay's men march into the castle but in WF he had plenty of time to both see the men for many days and hear talks such as "Lord Manderly has brought 300 men it is too few". So his numbers on how many at WF would be far more accurate, thus lowering thos in MC.

 

I feel that we will not reconcile as we disagree on some basic facts.

From my point of view, we are given information at certain points in the story, and have to accept that information until it is disproven.

It is stated that Bolton has 3500 men with him at the Twins (excluding any returning Bolton horse that was with Robb).

It is stated that Bolton left 600 men at the ford.

It is stated that Walton took 200 Bolton cavalry to King's Landing, and as evidenced by Direpuppy, they clearly rejoined Bolton's host before they reached Moat Cailin. Considering that Walton rejoined the host all the way from King's Landing, it makes logical sense that the 600 at the ford, who were much closer to the Neck, would also have rejoined the Northern host to return home. They certainly weren't going to hang around in the South forever for no reason with the rest of the Northern host heading home.

So the 3500 Bolton had before, which were mostly Boltons with a minority of Karstarks, added to the 200 Dreadfort horse with Walton, added to the 600 from the ford, comfortably brings us to significantly more than  4000 remaining Northmen. In fact, it takes us well beyond 4000 men. This ties in perfectly with Theon's statement of 20% of 20,000 Northmen returning up the causeway.

Between that point and Theon's vague statement of "more than 6000 men at Winterfell" we don't know every movement that has occurred. We don't know how many of the  4000 stayed on at Winterfell. We don't know whether Theon knows every coming and going at Winterfell, and in fact, Theon does not give an upper limit for the number at Winterfell. He guesses "more than 6000".

To use that to try and discredit multiple previous sources on the numbers with Roose Bolton is disingenuous, in my view. Do we even know whether Theon is including or excluding the Freys, who he might know had left the castle while he was still hanging with Mors Umber's boys directly outside of Winterfell?

I don't find the guestimated number at Winterfell at the beginning of Winds (without an upper limit indicated), a reliable reason to discount the number of Northmen that marched with Roose up the Neck at the beginning of Dance. Especially since we don't know what may have happened to all of those original 4000 in the intervening time.

That's my view, and I think it is a sound one.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I feel that we will not reconcile as we disagree on some basic facts.

From my point of view, we are given information at certain points in the story, and have to accept that information until it is disproven.

It is stated that Bolton has 3500 men with him at the Twins (excluding any returning Bolton horse that was with Robb).

It is stated that Bolton left 600 men at the ford.

It is stated that Walton took 200 Bolton cavalry to King's Landing, and as evidenced by Direpuppy, they clearly rejoined Bolton's host before they reached Moat Cailin. Considering that Walton rejoined the host all the way from King's Landing, it makes logical sense that the 600 at the ford, who were much closer to the Neck, would also have rejoined the Northern host to return home. They certainly weren't going to hang around in the South forever for no reason with the rest of the Northern host heading home.

So the 3500 Bolton had before, which were mostly Boltons with a minority of Karstarks, added to the 200 Dreadfort horse with Walton, added to the 600 from the ford, comfortably brings us to significantly more than  4000 remaining Northmen. In fact, it takes us well beyond 4000 men. This ties in perfectly with Theon's statement of 20% of 20,000 Northmen returning up the causeway.

Between that point and Theon's vague statement of "more than 6000 men at Winterfell" we don't know every movement that has occurred. We don't know how many of the  4000 stayed on at Winterfell. We don't know whether Theon knows every coming and going at Winterfell, and in fact, Theon does not give an upper limit for the number at Winterfell. He guesses "more than 6000".

To use that to try and discredit multiple previous sources on the numbers with Roose Bolton is disingenuous, in my view. Do we even know whether Theon is including or excluding the Freys, who he might know had left the castle while he was still hanging with Mors Umber's boys directly outside of Winterfell?

I don't find the guestimated number at Winterfell at the beginning of Winds (without an upper limit indicated), a reliable reason to discount the number of Northmen that marched with Roose up the Neck at the beginning of Dance. Especially since we don't know what may have happened to all of those original 4000 in the intervening time.

That's my view, and I think it is a sound one.

 

Again, on numbers Roose brought to Twins, coming from ASOS Arya X

Quote

The road had been running mostly northwest, but now it turned due west between an apple orchard and a field of drowned corn beaten down by the rain. They passed the last of the apple trees and crested a rise, and the castles, river, and camps all appeared at once. There were hundreds of horses and thousands of men, most of them milling about the three huge feast tents that stood side by side facing the castle gates, like three great canvas longhalls. Robb had made his camp well back from the walls, on higher, drier ground, but the Green Fork had overflown its bank and even claimed a few carelessly placed tents.

...

Firepits had been dug outside the feast tents, sheltered beneath rude canopies of woven wood and hides that kept the rain out, so long as it fell straight down. The wind was blowing off the river, though, so the drizzle came in anyway, enough to make the fires hiss and swirl. Serving men were turning joints of meat on spits above the flames. The smells made Arya's mouth water. "Shouldn't we stop?" she asked Sandor Clegane. "There's northmen in the tents." She knew them by their beards, by their faces, by their cloaks of bearskin and sealskin, by their half-heard toasts and the songs they sang; Karstarks and Umbers and men of the mountain clans. "I bet there are Winterfell men too." Her father's men, the Young Wolf's men, the direwolves of Stark.

 

Hopefuly you'll agree that this is Roose's camp; there are hundreds of horses, not thousands. I believe you'll also agree that the mountain clansmen came from Roose's army, since you accept they provide no cavalry to Robb. With this two in mind, Umber men we see would also be from the Roose's part, right?

 

Below are quotes from ASOS Catelyn VI and VII

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"He did, my lady. I blame myself. I delayed too long before leaving Harrenhal. Aenys Frey departed several days before me and crossed the Trident at the ruby ford, though not without difficulty. But by the time we came up the river was a torrent. I had no choice but to ferry my men across in small boats, of which we had too few. Two-thirds of my strength was on the north side when the Lannisters attacked those still waiting to cross. Norrey, Locke, and Burley men chiefly, with Ser Wylis Manderly and his White Harbor knights as rear guard. I was on the wrong side of the Trident, powerless to help them. Ser Wylis rallied our men as best he could, but Gregor Clegane attacked with heavy horse and drove them into the river. As many drowned as were cut down. More fled, and the rest were taken captive."

 

Catelyn's back was on fire. I have to reach him. The Smalljon bludgeoned Ser Raymund Frey across the face with a leg of mutton. But when he reached for his swordbelt a crossbow bolt drove him to his knees. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. She saw Lucas Blackwood cut down by Ser Hosteen Frey. One of the Vances was hamstrung by Black Walder as he was wrestling with Ser Harys Haigh. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours. The crossbows took Donnel Locke, Owen Norrey, and half a dozen more. Young Ser Benfrey had seized Dacey Mormont by the arm, but Catelyn saw her grab up a flagon of wine with her other hand, smash it full in his face, and run for the door. It flew open before she reached it. Ser Ryman Frey pushed into the hall, clad in steel from helm to heel. A dozen Frey men-at-arms packed the door behind him. They were armed with heavy longaxes.

I hope you'll also agree that Donnel Locke came with Roose too. In any case, here is evidence

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"As to this of my cousins," Tyrion went on, "we offer Harrion Karstark and Ser Wylis Manderly for Willem Lannister, and Lord Cerwyn and Ser Donnel Locke for your brother Tion. Tell Stark that two Lannisters are worth four northmen in any season." He waited for the laughter to die. "His father's bones he shall have, as a gesture of Joffrey's good faith."

Roose still has men from other lords in his army. We have agreed on that part earlier but these are proof of it anyway.

What we haven't agreed on is you assume these men survived the Red Wedding while their lords and many other men didn't.

They have no way of survival unless they took part themselves, which makes no sense. If you have some explanation to this that makes sense, then yes perhaps he still have these men with him.

Only other men besides Bolton and Karstark men would be those from the 600 and that is if they joined. Yes Steelshanks may have collected them but we get no mention on any of these men despite having mention of others from their houses or houses they are sworn to.

 

Back to Winterfell again

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Stannis Baratheon paced the floor. The tower was a small one, dank and cramped. A few steps brought the king around to Theon. "How many men does Bolton have at Winterfell?"

"Five thousand. Six. More." He gave the king a ghastly grin, all shattered teeth and splinters. "More than you."

"How many of those is he like to send against us?"

"No more than half." That was a guess, admittedly, but it felt right to him. Roose Bolton was not a man to blunder blindly out into the snow, map or no. He would hold his main strength in reserve, keep his best men with him, trust in Winterfell's massive double wall. "The castle was too crowded. Men were at each other's throats, the Manderlys and Freys especially. It's them his lordship's sent after you, the ones that he's well rid of."

Yes, six thousand is an estimate and a lowest figure but notice that he starts with five thousand and then increases. He doesn't go six, seven more.

Again, if his numbers at MC are correct than In WF it would be too and would be closer to the actual numbers since he had time from Barrowton to Winterfell with all the new comers and even before that from Moat Cailin to Barrowton with Ryswells, Umbers, Cerwyns, Freys and returning Northman. He had all the time with those since MC.

 

Only way of knowing they are more than Stannis is knowing how much he has, which he does.

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"Glorious madness. Stannis has five thousand, they say, but Abel claims ten times as many still could not breach these walls. So how did you get in, m'lord? Did you have some secret way?"

We as the readers know Stannis had five thousand and growing but we also know weather got worse sometime afterwards, so not much possible to for more men join him. In Theon's mind he still has five thousand.

[Free Northman Reborn]

28 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Again, on numbers Roose brought to Twins, coming from ASOS Arya X

Hopefuly you'll agree that this is Roose's camp; there are hundreds of horses, not thousands. I believe you'll also agree that the mountain clansmen came from Roose's army, since you accept they provide no cavalry to Robb. With this two in mind, Umber men we see would also be from the Roose's part, right?

 

Below are quotes from ASOS Catelyn VI and VII

I hope you'll also agree that Donnel Locke came with Roose too. In any case, here is evidence

Roose still has men from other lords in his army. We have agreed on that part earlier but these are proof of it anyway.

What we haven't agreed on is you assume these men survived the Red Wedding while their lords and many other men didn't.

They have no way of survival unless they took part themselves, which makes no sense. If you have some explanation to this that makes sense, then yes perhaps he still have these men with him.

Only other men besides Bolton and Karstark men would be those from the 600 and that is if they joined. Yes Steelshanks may have collected them but we get no mention on any of these men despite having mention of others from their houses or houses they are sworn to.

 

Back to Winterfell again

Yes, six thousand is an estimate and a lowest figure but notice that he starts with five thousand and then increases. He doesn't go six, seven more.

Again, if his numbers at MC are correct than In WF it would be too and would be closer to the actual numbers since he had time from Barrowton to Winterfell with all the new comers and even before that from Moat Cailin to Barrowton with Ryswells, Umbers, Cerwyns, Freys and returning Northman. He had all the time with those since MC.

 

Only way of knowing they are more than Stannis is knowing how much he has, which he does.

We as the readers know Stannis had five thousand and growing but we also know weather got worse sometime afterwards, so not much possible to for more men join him. In Theon's mind he still has five thousand.

From my reading, Arya is looking at part of the combined Northern host, after Bolton's host has reunited with Robb's host. I say "part of", because we don't know if Arya saw all of them, or just a portion. She was not omniscient after all. She was limited to her field of vision at that time. Logic dictates that for the wedding festival, all the men from the various Houses would have reunited with their kin, resulting in the reunification of the two separate hosts.

Anyway, we are told how many march up the Neck. 20% of the men who marched South. And it just so happens that this ties in very well with the numbers we are given before. Note, that we STILL don't know how many Bolton horse returned with Robb, and were thus not included in Roose's 3500.

In any case, the 3500 has to be majority Dreadfort men, giving us around 1800 Dreadfort men at a minimum. Excluding Walton's 200.So after adding Walton's 200, this gives us 2000 Dreadfort men remaining as an absolute minimum, before we count any Dreadfort cavalry in Robb's host. And that is after any losses they have suffered during the campaign.

With the 4000 returning up the Neck, any non Bolton/Karstark men would likely be the 600 at the ford, along with any stragglers from elsewhere that joined them after the Red Wedding. So in that host, a reasonable assessment of all the facts brings us back to around 2500 Boltons, with the Karstarks being the 2nd largest contingent. But the Karstarks cannot be a very large number, given the feedback we got about the dispersal of the Karstarks prior to Roose returning to the Twins.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

17 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

From my reading, Arya is looking at part of the combined Northern host, after Bolton's host has reunited with Robb's host. I say "part of", because we don't know if Arya saw all of them, or just a portion. She was not omniscient after all. She was limited to her field of vision at that time. Logic dictates that for the wedding festival, all the men from the various Houses would have reunited with their kin, resulting in the reunification of the two separate hosts.

Anyway, we are told how many march up the Neck. 20% of the men who marched South. And it just so happens that this ties in very well with the numbers we are given before. Note, that we STILL don't know how many Bolton horse returned with Robb, and were thus not included in Roose's 3500.

In any case, the 3500 has to be majority Dreadfort men, giving us around 1800 Dreadfort men at a minimum. Excluding Walton's 200.So after adding Walton's 200, this gives us 2000 Dreadfort men remaining as an absolute minimum, before we count any Dreadfort cavalry in Robb's host. And that is after any losses they have suffered during the campaign.

With the 4000 returning up the Neck, any non Bolton/Karstark men would likely be the 600 at the ford, along with any stragglers from elsewhere that joined them after the Red Wedding. So in that host, a reasonable assessment of all the facts brings us back to around 2500 Boltons, with the Karstarks being the 2nd largest contingent. But the Karstarks cannot be a very large number, given the feedback we got about the dispersal of the Karstarks prior to Roose returning to the Twins.

 

 

You are sticking to the same thing without providing any explanation as to what I give. Sure Arya can be looking at a portion of the combined Northern host but what she sees is hundreds of horse not the thousands we would see. In any case, even if men from the same houses but in the two seperate armies rejoined, which I could agree on, She only notices Karstarks, Umbers and Clansmen. She sees a few Dreadfort men upon her entry, guarding the perimeter but not much else.

 

Quote

Arya found herself wishing it were day. If the sun was out and the wind was blowing, she would have been able to see the banners better. She would have looked for the direwolf of Stark, or maybe the Cerwyn battleaxe or the Glover fist. But in the gloom of night all the colors looked grey. The rain had dwindled down to a fine drizzle, almost a mist, but an earlier downpour had left the banners wet as dishrags, sodden and unreadable.

A hedge of wagons and carts had been drawn up along the perimeter to make a crude wooden wall against any attack. That was where the guards stopped them. The lantern their sergeant carried shed enough light for Arya to see that his cloak was a pale pink, spotted with red teardrops. The men under him had the Leech Lord's badge sewn over their hearts, the flayed man of the Dreadfort. Sandor Clegane gave them the same tale he'd used on the outriders, but the Bolton sergeant was a harder sort of nut than Ser Donnel Haigh had been. "Salt pork's no fit meat for a lord's wedding feast," he said scornfully.

She can't identify the banners from afar as it isn't day time but she would be able to identify them once she is close. It seems cloaks are also a way of identifying men; She identifies, Umbers, Karstarks, mountain clansmen, Bolton men all from their cloaks. Badges are also a certain way though she may or may not have been close enough to identify the badges.

Anyway, below is Arya being able to get a good look on some badges so this would be a distance she could identify badges.

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The riders split and circled them for a look before they came up close. Clegane drew the wayn to a halt and waited patiently on their pleasure. The knight bore spear and sword while his squires carried longbows. The badges on their jerkins were smaller versions of the sigil sewn on their master's surcoat; a black pitchfork on a golden bar sinister, upon a russet field. Arya had thought of revealing herself to the first outriders they encountered, but she had always pictured grey-cloaked men with the direwolf on their breasts. She might have risked it even if they'd worn the Umber giant or the Glover fist, but she did not know this pitchfork knight or whom he served. The closest thing to a pitchfork she had ever seen at Winterfell was the trident in the hand of Lord Manderly's merman.

Isn't it too much of a coincidence that what Arya sees at a glance looks more like Roose's host than Robb's? And I am not just talking about the Hundreds of horse and thousands of men. It has Karstarks and clansmen, which Robb obviously doesn't. No Glovers or Cerwyns to be seen which Robb should have with him but Roose conveniently disposed of those with him earlier. No Stark men who very likely formed the frontlines in Green Fork but would be many with Robb. No Manderlys which Robb had but Roose didn't. I'll not mention the other houses as right now I am unable to go searching which other houses sigils does Arya recognize.

Robb has Four thousand horses remaining to him if we take some five hundred as 500. By your suggestion Roose has 800 horse which is 1/5. 4/5 of all the other horses belong to some other lords. Since Arya sees a few hundred horses of this "portion of a merged camp" she would have a higher chance of seeing a Glover or Cerwyn or Stark than Seeing a mountain clansmen or Karstark. Perhaps even a higher chance of seeing a Manderly as you suggest Karstarks would be survivors of Duskendale and not part of those thousand prowling in search of Jaime. She doesn't see a single one of these nor any others who she may identify by house or at least recognize to be of the North.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

You are sticking to the same thing without providing any explanation as to what I give. Sure Arya can be looking at a portion of the combined Northern host but what she sees is hundreds of horse not the thousands we would see. In any case, even if men from the same houses but in the two seperate armies rejoined, which I could agree on, She only notices Karstarks, Umbers and Clansmen. She sees a few Dreadfort men upon her entry, guarding the perimeter but not much else.

 

She can't identify the banners from afar as it isn't day time but she would be able to identify them once she is close. It seems cloaks are also a way of identifying men; She identifies, Umbers, Karstarks, mountain clansmen, Bolton men all from their cloaks. Badges are also a certain way though she may or may not have been close enough to identify the badges.

Anyway, below is Arya being able to get a good look on some badges so this would be a distance she could identify badges.

Isn't it too much of a coincidence that what Arya sees at a glance looks more like Roose's host than Robb's? And I am not just talking about the Hundreds of horse and thousands of men. It has Karstarks and clansmen, which Robb obviously doesn't. No Glovers or Cerwyns to be seen which Robb should have with him but Roose conveniently disposed of those with him earlier. No Stark men who very likely formed the frontlines in Green Fork but would be many with Robb. No Manderlys which Robb had but Roose didn't. I'll not mention the other houses as right now I am unable to go searching which other houses sigils does Arya recognize.

Robb has Four thousand horses remaining to him if we take some five hundred as 500. By your suggestion Roose has 800 horse which is 1/5. 4/5 of all the other horses belong to some other lords. Since Arya sees a few hundred horses of this "portion of a merged camp" she would have a higher chance of seeing a Glover or Cerwyn or Stark than Seeing a mountain clansmen or Karstark. Perhaps even a higher chance of seeing a Manderly as you suggest Karstarks would be survivors of Duskendale and not part of those thousand prowling in search of Jaime. She doesn't see a single one of these nor any others who she may identify by house or at least recognize to be of the North.

 

I don't understand what you are getting at with this. There is no definitive information on which part of the host she is looking at, and I don't see why that matters in any case. If you agree that the two hosts merged, then it obviously just means that Arya happened to observe the parts of the host where the Umbers, Clansmen and Karstarks, amongst others, happened to be camped. And if you agree that there are thousands of horses in total, but only a few hundred observed by Arya, then you also agree that Arya was looking at only a portion of the host, not the full one. Why does that matter? 

Trying to work out the breakdown of deaths at the Red Wedding is futile. What we do know, is that we have about 4000 men left afterwards. A number that can be very easily supported by a combination of Roose's army, the 600 at the ford, Steelshanks Walton's 200 and whatever Bolton cavalry returned with Robb from the West.

This discussion has already taken too long. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎31‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 1:53 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Another pass at Reach and Stormlands

...

Earlier I was on another attempt on Reach and Stormlands, here are some more information.

 

Quote

He approved of his sister's choice of Ser Balon Swann to take the place of the slain Preston Greenfield. The Swanns were Marcher lords, proud, powerful, and cautious. Pleading illness, Lord Gulian Swann had remained in his castle, taking no part in the war, but his eldest son had ridden with Renly and now Stannis, while Balon, the younger, served at King's Landing. If he'd had a third son, Tyrion suspected he'd be off with Robb Stark

 

"There is only one question I would put to you. You served us loyally, it's true . . . but Varys tells me that your brother rode with Renly and then Stannis, whilst your lord father chose not to call his banners at all and remained behind the walls of Stonehelm all through the fighting."

"My father is an old man, my lord. Well past forty. His fighting days are done."

 

This would support that perhaps Tarth too only sent a Knight as no Tarth men are  ever mentioned.

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Earlier I was on another attempt on Reach and Stormlands, here are some more information.

 

This would support that perhaps Tarth too only sent a Knight as no Tarth men are  ever mentioned.

 

Not really. In the Appendix of ACOK http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Appendix#THE_KING_IN_HIGHGARDEN

 

Lord Tarth is specifically mentioned as a supporter of Renly while Lord Swann is not and then there is Renly's speech

 

Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king. 

where Tarth is one of the first to be mentioned while there is no mention of Swann

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not really. In the Appendix of ACOK http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Appendix#THE_KING_IN_HIGHGARDEN

 

Lord Tarth is specifically mentioned as a supporter of Renly while Lord Swann is not and then there is Renly's speech

 

Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king. 

where Tarth is one of the first to be mentioned while there is no mention of Swann

I know but there is a bet on Brienne's maidenhead and it is common knowledge enough for many to give a try and Randyll Tarly to take notice yet no Tarth men take notice and notify their lady? No Tarth Knights stand up to defend her honor?

 

And again, Catelyn who knows the Tarth sigil doesn't see any Tarth banners. He doesn't see the banners of all the houses listed above, even some of the ones we have other confirmation on, it is true but again it is odd.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I know but there is a bet on Brienne's maidenhead and it is common knowledge enough for many to give a try and Randyll Tarly to take notice yet no Tarth men take notice and notify their lady? No Tarth Knights stand up to defend her honor?

This is a 50- 70k army, not everyone would have known, Taryly himself only finds out by chance

Randyll Tarly solved the mystery the day he sent two of his men-at-arms to summon her to his pavilion. His young son Dickon had overheard four knights laughing as they saddled up their horses, and had told his lord father what they said.

TIt is also possible that House Tarth and its retainers find her an embarrassment, that their petty knights and master of arms see her exactly as Ser Hyle sees her. 

Quote

And again, Catelyn who knows the Tarth sigil doesn't see any Tarth banners. He doesn't see the banners of all the houses listed above, even some of the ones we have other confirmation on, it is true but again it is odd.

Cat does not mention every single sigil see shes. GRRM when asked about the Rysells and Dustins, who are never mentioned as being with Robb's army in the first few books, points out that he can not mention every single House. 

GRRM: No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

Now GRRM has mentioned the Tarth support in both the appendix and by Renly himself, so it is not even like this is similar to the Ryswell situation. GRRM would have to be deliberately trying to mislead the reader for this to be true. 

 

Tarth is the firth House Renly mentions, the second one Renly mentions. Why would he risk looking like a liar to Stannis, Cat and even his own lords with such an obvious lie? Would it not piss off his lords that he gave the Taarths such prominence despite them not even being there? Why does he also not mention having the support of House Swann'? A pretty prestigious and important House. 

 

And of course your original post tried to compare the information with Tarth and Swann when they are not comparable at all as Renly, nor the appendix, ever claim that Lord Swann supports Renly and explicitly mentions Lord Tarth doing so. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cat does not mention every single sigil see shes. GRRM when asked about the Rysells and Dustins, who are never mentioned as being with Robb's army in the first few books, points out that he can not mention every single House. 

GRRM: No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

As an aside, I can't help but note the subtle similarity between that quoted statement from Martin, and his depiction of Lord Manderly's vassals in Dance. The two passages are probably a decade or more removed in time, and yet Martin's wording is remarkably similar.

Above Martin states there are "dozens of minor lords and hundreds of landed knights and such in all these armies". And in Dance, Manderly states: "My vassals include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights".

The similarity in wording is quite striking, suggesting a thought that has been germinating in Martin's sub-conscious for a long time before finding expression in a random bit of dialogue many years later.

It kind of establishes a general numerical ratio between petty lord level Houses and Landed Knight/Masterly Houses. And it seems to be around 8-1 (with obvious local variations to either side of that ratio).

Anyway, I'm not making any major point. Just noting something I found interesting.

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is a 50- 70k army, not everyone would have known, Taryly himself only finds out by chance

Randyll Tarly solved the mystery the day he sent two of his men-at-arms to summon her to his pavilion. His young son Dickon had overheard four knights laughing as they saddled up their horses, and had told his lord father what they said.

TIt is also possible that House Tarth and its retainers find her an embarrassment, that their petty knights and master of arms see her exactly as Ser Hyle sees her. 

Cat does not mention every single sigil see shes. GRRM when asked about the Rysells and Dustins, who are never mentioned as being with Robb's army in the first few books, points out that he can not mention every single House. 

GRRM: No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

Now GRRM has mentioned the Tarth support in both the appendix and by Renly himself, so it is not even like this is similar to the Ryswell situation. GRRM would have to be deliberately trying to mislead the reader for this to be true. 

 

Tarth is the firth House Renly mentions, the second one Renly mentions. Why would he risk looking like a liar to Stannis, Cat and even his own lords with such an obvious lie? Would it not piss off his lords that he gave the Taarths such prominence despite them not even being there? Why does he also not mention having the support of House Swann'? A pretty prestigious and important House. 

 

And of course your original post tried to compare the information with Tarth and Swann when they are not comparable at all as Renly, nor the appendix, ever claim that Lord Swann supports Renly and explicitly mentions Lord Tarth doing so. 

 

Her master-at-arms wasn't embarassed of her though I'll not quote it now.

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She tried the wine. It was oily on the tongue and there was a hair floating in it. A hair as slender as my hopes of finding Sansa, she thought as she plucked it out. Chasing after Ser Dontos had been fruitless, and with Lady Lysa dead the Vale no longer seemed a likely refuge. Where are you, Lady Sansa? Did you run home to Winterfell, or are you with your husband, as Podrick seems to think? Brienne did not want to chase the girl across the narrow sea, where even the language would be strange to her. I will be even more a freak there, grunting and gesturing to make myself understood. They will laugh at me, as they laughed at Highgarden. A blush stole up her cheeks as she remembered.

When Renly donned his crown, the Maid of Tarth had ridden all the way across the Reach to join him. The king himself had greeted her courteously and welcomed her to his service. Not so his lords and knights. Brienne had not expected a warm welcome. She was prepared for coldness, for mockery, for hostility. She had supped upon such meat before. It was not the scorn of the many that left her confused and vulnerable, but the kindness of the few. The Maid of Tarth had been betrothed three times, but she had never been courted until she came to Highgarden.

Big Ben Bushy was the first, one of the few men in Renly's camp who overtopped her. He sent his squire to her to clean her mail, and made her a gift of a silver drinking horn. Ser Edmund Ambrose went him one better, bringing flowers and asking her to ride with him. Ser Hyle Hunt outdid them both. He gave her a book, beautifully illuminated and filled with a hundred tales of knightly valor. He brought apples and carrots for her horses, and a blue silk plume for her helm. He told her the gossip of the camp and said clever, cutting things that made her smile. He even trained with her one day, which meant more than all the rest.

She thought it was because of him that the others started being courteous. More than courteous. At table men fought for the place beside her, offering to fill her wine cup or fetch her sweetbreads. Ser Richard Farrow played love songs on his lute outside her pavilion. Ser Hugh Beesbury brought her a pot of honey "as sweet as the maids of Tarth." Ser Mark Mullendore made her laugh with the antics of his monkey, a curious little black-and-white creature from the Summer Islands. A hedge knight called Will the Stork offered to rub the knots from her shoulders.

 

Other things you say is true and I've found that most if not all the contesters are Reach men, Reach men were camped on one side of the Mander and Stormlanders were on another so her men may not hear of anything at all but still it is odd; She rides, not marches to offer her service. It means little by itself, she could still have other riders accompanying her and the Tarth foot coming behind but what is more interesting is that she is not in the Stormlander camp where her men would be, if she brought any. She doesn't even have a squire with her or any knights who would have squires that would clean the mail of their liege lady / heir around, if she had, this would have been pointless in the first place.

From all we see, Brienne is almost certainly the single person from Tarth in Renly's camp. It doesn't mean Selwyn didn't declare for Renly, unlike Swann he may have also declared for him apart from sending an heir but it seems so far he hasn't sent any men. Who knows, perhaps with Tarth being an isle and a large one at that, he just sent her daughter ahead whilst he made preparations to carry his men to mainland.

[Corvo the Crow]

A small one comparing Westerlands and North.

 

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The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.

 

Quote

The years that followed were as dismal as any in the long history of the westerlands. Conditions in the west grew so bad that the Iron Throne felt compelled to take a hand. Thrice King Aegon V sent forth his knights to restore order to the westerlands, but each time the conflicts flared up once again as soon as the king's men had taken their leave. When His Grace perished in the tragedy at Summerhall in 259 AC, matters in the west deteriorated even further, for the new king, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, lacked his sire's strength of will and was besides soon embroiled in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

A thousand knights and ten thousand men-atarms went forth from the westerlands at the king's call, but Lord Tytos was not amongst them. His lordship's brother was given command in his stead, but in 260 AC Ser Jason Lannister died on Bloodstone. After his death, Ser Roger Reyne seized command of the remaining westermen and led them to several notable victories.

 

One is Westerlands gathering a quick muster, the other is them sending forces abroad.

And then we have Robb's army of 19500, again not the full strength of the region. Robb was also in a hurry to go south. We know this because of the men Boltons and Karstarks raise later, Barbrey stating she sent as few as she dared, Manderly being able to send men to Winterfell and still having the biggest cavalry strength after all this time.

It is important to keep in mind that Westerland is a far smaller region and very likely it's settlements are less scattered than those in the North would be, with all the mining towns and better soil. So with settlements closer together, lords of the Westerlands can gather a greater portion of their strength in a smaller amount of time and they can also join their forces in a smaller amount of time with shorter distances between where they have gathered their forces and where the main army is gathering.

Of course the numbers we have can be, for example, only a quarter of Westerlander strength and Robb's could be more than half the Northern one, we don't have a way of knowing.

 

But we know Tywin has gathered near 35000 men including many sellswords which left the Westerlands bare. We know this because Westerlings could only bring their garrison and no new levies to Robb's cause and the new force Lannisters are gathering is described as this

 

Quote

Another Lannister army. The thought made her ill. "Robb must be told at once. Who will command?"

"Ser Stafford Lannister, it's said." He turned to gaze out over the rivers, his red-and-blue cloak stirring in the breeze.

"Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house."Cousin," Ser Brynden corrected. "Brother to Lord Tywin's late wife, so twice related. An old man and a bit of a dullard, but he has a son, Ser Daven, who is more formidable."

"Then let us hope it is the father and not the son who takes this army into the field."

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle . . . and make no mistake, Lord Tywin is not the Kingslayer. He will not rush in heedless. He will wait patiently for Ser Stafford to march before he stirs from behind the walls of Harrenhal."

 

Lannister snorted. "Sorcery is the sauce fools spoon over failure to hide the flavor of their own incompetence. My mutton-headed uncle had not even troubled to post sentries, it would seem. His host was raw—apprentice boys, miners, fieldhands, fisherfolk, the sweepings of Lannisport. The only mystery is how your brother reached him. Our forces still hold the stronghold at the Golden Tooth, and they swear he did not pass."

 

Then we have Torrhen Stark who has taken 30000 men south 300 years ago during conquest. We don't know if this was the full strength of the North then or just what he could keep supplied so far away from his lands but it is still near as many men some 300 years ago with obviously far fewer hired fighters than Tywin would have.

[Free Northman Reborn]

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

A small one comparing Westerlands and North.

 

 

 

One is Westerlands gathering a quick muster, the other is them sending forces abroad.

And then we have Robb's army of 19500, again not the full strength of the region. Robb was also in a hurry to go south. We know this because of the men Boltons and Karstarks raise later, Barbrey stating she sent as few as she dared, Manderly being able to send men to Winterfell and still having the biggest cavalry strength after all this time.

It is important to keep in mind that Westerland is a far smaller region and very likely it's settlements are less scattered than those in the North would be, with all the mining towns and better soil. So with settlements closer together, lords of the Westerlands can gather a greater portion of their strength in a smaller amount of time and they can also join their forces in a smaller amount of time with shorter distances between where they have gathered their forces and where the main army is gathering.

Of course the numbers we have can be, for example, only a quarter of Westerlander strength and Robb's could be more than half the Northern one, we don't have a way of knowing.

 

But we know Tywin has gathered near 35000 men including many sellswords which left the Westerlands bare. We know this because Westerlings could only bring their garrison and no new levies to Robb's cause and the new force Lannisters are gathering is described as this

 

 

Then we have Torrhen Stark who has taken 30000 men south 300 years ago during conquest. We don't know if this was the full strength of the North then or just what he could keep supplied so far away from his lands but it is still near as many men some 300 years ago with obviously far fewer hired fighters than Tywin would have.

It seems obvious to me that even if the North can raise 50k men in total, they could never raise them as a single host, let alone march them beyond their borders. Robb had to march when he had 12k men, because he could not keep feeding them all even at Winterfell. 

How the heck Torhenn managed to hold together and supply 30k men at Moat Cailin,  and then march them all the way to the Riverlands is a miracle. The logistical suppply chain from White Harbour, Barrowton and other settlements to just keep the host fed must have been extraordinary.

Robb said the land at Moat Cailin could not support his 20k. Torhenn's 30k was truly an extraordinary achievement.

In short. It in no way indicates the total potential of the North.  Only the limits of its logistical capability over very long distances.

[Corvo the Crow]

Some thoughts on Stormlander strength during AC

To summarize: During AC Stormlands don't seem to have even 10000 men fighting against Orys.

 

Aegon lands with fewer than 1500 men. Rosby and Stokeworth surrender and after that He encounters 3000 from Maidenpool and Duskendale, their lords are killed so heirs take over and surrender. Obviously Rosby and Stokeworth wouldn't be as powerful as two rich port cities/towns the fact they set out with 3000 men should be proof enough that without the dragons taken into consideration, they deemed it enough to defeat the armies of Rosby, Stokeworth and Aegon. Even if they learned later on these two have joined Aegon they didn't return home so again, they thought themselves numerous enough.

Seeing later that Rosby and Stokeworth aren't able to commit much men to defense of King's Landing 300 years later

 

Quote

 

To be sure, there were seasoned men in the City Watch, the core of two thousand who'd gotten their gold cloaks from Robert, not Cersei. Yet even those . . . a watchman was not truly a soldier, Lord Tywin Lannister had been fond of saying. Of knights and squires and men-at-arms, Tyrion had no more than three hundred. Soon enough, he must test the truth of another of his father's sayings: One man on a wall was worth ten beneath it.

...

Hallyne fled so quickly that he almost bowled over Ser Jacelyn—no, Lord Jacelyn, he must remember that. Ironhand was mercifully direct, as ever. He'd returned from Rosby to deliver a fresh levy of spearmen recruited from Lord Gyles's estates and resume his command of the City Watch. "How does my nephew fare?" Tyrion asked when they were done discussing the city's defenses.

ACOK Tyrion XI

As he carved some slices off the ham, she said, "We have Lady Tanda to thank for the pig."

"A token of her love?"

"A bribe. She begs leave to return to her castle. Your leave as well as mine. I suspect she fears you'll arrest her on the road, as you did Lord Gyles."

"Does she plan to make off with the heir to the throne?" Tyrion served his sister a cut of ham and took one for himself. "I'd sooner she remain. If she wants to feel safe, tell her to bring down her garrison from Stokeworth. As many men as she has."

ACOK Tyrion XII

We don't get another count of Tyrion's men so probably it didn't improve much.

 

Assuming Maidenpool and Duskendale didn't lose much from the 3000 and Aegon still had a smaller but comparable force and he too didn't lose many, let's say they had over 5000 after battle. Aegon gives Orys the greater part of his strength so let's assume Orys commanded 5000 men and Aegon commanded mere hundreds. Orys loses more than a thousand to Errol, Fell and Buckler who also loses men later. When Argilac the Arrogant comes, he has twice the number of Orys. Even with the numbers inflated as much as possible it doesn't even make 10000.

The real numbers would likely be more closer to Orys having 3000-4000 at most so bringing Argilac's numbers further down.

Also Mooton was with Aegon so it was probably even lower than that.

 

 

Going on further Torrhen with his 30000 faces half again as many men. I'll take this as 45000 as we see 0.5s rounded to the number above yet it is not said he faced twice as many so it would be 45000 at most. This 45000 is made up of Stormlanders, Westerlanders, Riverman and Reachmen.

Aegon, who had 8000 during siege of Harrenhal now has a fifth of 55000 men he is facing in field of fire, so 11000 for him. He loses fewer than a hundred while Reach and Westerlands lose 4000 to burns and 1000 to battle, also tens of thousands suffered burns. So 50000 remaining alive but at least ~20000 have burns, meaning at most 30000 men still fighting. adding to that the 11000 of Aegon he has 41000 (at most). So this means Orys brought 4000 men. Seems about right with all the casualties he and the Stormlanders have taken.

Obviously these numbers could vary in a wide range but the final count of 4000 coming with Orys wouldn't be far off the mark as he didn't have many men to begin with and Stormlanders have twice his number only after he loses a thousand. And even after that there are battles so men are lost.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It seems obvious to me that even if the North can raise 50k men in total, they could never raise them as a single host, let alone march them beyond their borders. Robb had to march when he had 12k men, because he could not keep feeding them all even at Winterfell. 

How the heck Torhenn managed to hold together and supply 30k men at Moat Cailin,  and then march them all the way to the Riverlands is a miracle. The logistical suppply chain from White Harbour, Barrowton and other settlements to just keep the host fed must have been extraordinary.

Robb said the land at Moat Cailin could not support his 20k. Torhenn's 30k was truly an extraordinary achievement.

In short. It in no way indicates the total potential of the North.  Only the limits of its logistical capability over very long distances.

You are right, Torrhen possibly could have raised even more men if he reached out to every single village (one problem of the North) and if he could supply himself. He may have started with two hosts and merged them later on but unlike Robb he probably didn't join his forces in MC but in further south where he could supply his men off the land.

[Corvo the Crow]

On Crownlands, won't add quotes as this is a wrap up of several posts that had quotes.

To summarize: Crownlands have ~10000 men. It may be slightly lower or it may be slightly higher but not in thousands.

 

In Dance of the Dragons, Hightowers greatly outnumbered the nine thousand blacks in Tumbleton.

At the start black council had a dozen lords, bannermen and Dragonstone vassals, which didn't even have as many men as Hightowers alone. With the exception of Mootons, all of these are crownlander houses; Massey, Bar Emmon, Celtigar, Brune, Velaryon, Staunton, Darklyn(which had 3000 together with Mootons), Crabb. We are missing three houses but very likely the other three include Sunglass, other Crackclaw houses and maybe Rambton.

Stannis' fifteen hundred(1300 by his account) men after Blackwater is more than Aegon the conqueror had when he landed. Aegon had the lords Bar Emmon, Massey, Celtigar and Velaryon with him.

Blacks lost 800 men to dragonfire near Rook's Rest. They later gathered a host of 4000 strong from crownlands to retake Harrenhal. King's Landing still had more than five hundred Gold Cloaks after this force left.

 

All of this together brings us to 9100-9300 men (mootons included) without Stauntons and three other blacks and the Gold cloaks that stayed in KL( more than 500 but fewer than 2000.)

Splitting Mooton and Darklyn 3000 as 1400/1600 to slightly favor the greater port Duskendale and assuming no more than half the gold cloaks went in the 4000, this lowers us to 8700-8900 with Stauntons and three other blacks excluded. Since these four would obviously be lords with even lower strengths and some may be other vassals of Dragonstone, assuming they do not exceed 1000 together would be right I suppose. So this brings us to ~10000.

 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

A quote from Princess and the Queen to give us some idea on the strength of some lords.

 

Quote

The annals of the Great Council of 101 were brought forth and examined, and note was made of which lords had spoken for Viserys, and which for Rhaenys, Laena, or Laenor. The lords assembled had favored the male claimant over the female by twenty to one, but there had been dissenters, and those same houses were most like to lend Princess Rhaenyra their support should it come to war. The princess would have the Sea Snake and his fleets, Ser Otto judged, and like as not the other lords of the eastern shores as well: Lords Bar Emmon, Massey, Celtigar, and Crabb most like, perhaps even the Evenstar of Tarth. All were lesser powers, save for the Velaryons. The northmen were a greater concern: Winterfell had spoken for Rhaenys at Harrenhal, as had Lord Stark’s bannermen, Dustin of Barrowton and Manderly of White Harbor. Nor could House Arryn be relied upon, for the Eyrie was presently ruled by a woman, Lady Jeyne, the Maiden of the Vale, whose own rights might be called into question should Princess Rhaenyra be put aside.

Tarths are a lesser power compared to Velaryons.

Also I'll bring the Boltons again, not in numbers but in relative strength; When talking about Northmen what Dustins and Manderlys say is taken into account but not what the Boltons said. I believe this should imply Manderlys, who have the only city in the North and Dustins who have the largest town in the North is more powerful than Boltons who neither has a city nor a town worth mentioning.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

A quote from Princess and the Queen to give us some idea on the strength of some lords.

 

Tarths are a lesser power compared to Velaryons.

Also I'll bring the Boltons again, not in numbers but in relative strength; When talking about Northmen what Dustins and Manderlys say is taken into account but not what the Boltons said. I believe this should imply Manderlys, who have the only city in the North and Dustins who have the largest town in the North is more powerful than Boltons who neither has a city nor a town worth mentioning.

The Dustins and Manderlys have the most contact with the South. But yes, I agree that they are also, along with the Boltons, the most powerful vassal Houses in the North.

In truth I do not know the comparative strength of the Dustins and Boltons. I suspect they are more or less on a par, most likely.