Arya vs. the Waif

[Maid So Fair]

10 minutes ago, Marco van Panter said:

I think the term you're searching for is "building tension" ...

More like killing it because the moment she got stabbed and didn't drop dead destroyed e last vestiges of the suspension of disbelief I had in that scene and all rh tension with it. Since then it was - oh of course she'll survive, she has plot armour.

Honesrly, if they skipped all that's happened in the last episode and just started with this one, it would have been 100x more suspenseful and believable.

[Marco van Panter]

11 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

It wasn't tense at all. None of us for a second thought that Arya wouldn't come out of this episode alive and the waif wouldn't die.

Yes, you're right. but they don't make the show soley for us and a lot of Unsullied worried about Arya. This struck me when my girlfriend almost panicked while I was "Mh, why do you worry? Arya got this!"

People on this board frequently tend to forget that 1. we are much more invested in the story and have a very broad background knowledge, while most viewers don't have this benefit 2. these are not the books and Game of Thrones is set a totally different medium. Honestly, I'd always take the books over the series without even blinking. But still, this is an audiovisual medium and such media need the tension and cartharsis books can provide in radically different ways. And you're thinking about books right now, when speaking of things they could've handles better. And compared to season 5 this is complaining on a very high level ...

Edit: Also I'd like to point out that there is a thread in this subforum where people discuss wether or not Arya is still alive or wether the waif is just wearing her face, so I guess the stab wound did build up some tension even for book readers

[Darkstream]

31 minutes ago, Marco van Panter said:

I think the term you're searching for is "building tension" ...

I think you mean "sensationalism".

Quote

Also I'd like to point out that there is a thread in this subforum where people discuss wether or not Arya is still alive or wether the waif is just wearing her face, so I guess the stab wound did build up some tension even for book readers [/quote}

And I think the term for this is "honey potting".

[Marco van Panter]

Just now, Darkstream said:

I think you mean "sensationalism".

Again, medium: With books the stakes don't matter as much as with TV series or movies. Just look at supernatural. In season 1 they were hunting for ghosts and it was oh so dangerous while now 

Spoiler

they are fighting with gods sister.

They can't just built up a terribly dangerous world where everybody can die and then let Arya quit Assassin College without further consequenses.

[Destiel's Child]

7 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I think you mean "sensationalism".

maybe in reverse... bear with me.  this comes from a place of positivity .

Perhaps, viewers have become so accustomed to shock and awe that we expect a twist in everything.  Perhaps, the best antidote to this is to make things as bland as possible.  Everything is just as expected and people are just fallible.

Perhaps to lull us back into that season 1, pre-Ned Stark, feeling.

Then, something big

...Just hoping.......................................................................

[nmuir22]

The worst part for me is she has been completely idiotic, but is now finally "no one." Erm, no! Don't think so. This story line has been handled terribly and that last line by Jaqen really epitomises the awful writing. 

[Destiel's Child]

Just now, nmuir22 said:

The worst part for me is she has been completely idiotic, but is now finally "no one." Erm, no! Don't think so. This story line has been handled terribly and that last line by Jaqen really epitomises the awful writing. 

totally agree.  This episode I was waiting for a Tyler Durden moment or something like that, but so let down.

I thought Arya had grown enough as a character by now to not be making silly girly mistakes, but alas

[LyannaKuku]

5 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

 I thought Arya had grown enough as a character by now to not be making silly girly mistakes, but alas

She was really stupid in the last episode but good thing she has plot armor to annihilate all of her mistakes

[Destiel's Child]

3 minutes ago, LyannaKuku said:

She was really stupid in the last episode but good thing she has plot armor to annihilate all of her mistakes

*sigh*.  You're right.  It's like they can do anything and people will forgive because she is such a beloved character.  Still, I felt sick knowing that she was just a stupid little girl, acting all posh and flashing coin.

It just didn't make sense

[Survivor92]

29 minutes ago, Marco van Panter said:

Yes, you're right. but they don't make the show soley for us and a lot of Unsullied worried about Arya. This struck me when my girlfriend almost panicked while I was "Mh, why do you worry? Arya got this!"

People on this board frequently tend to forget that 1. we are much more invested in the story and have a very broad background knowledge, while most viewers don't have this benefit 2. these are not the books and Game of Thrones is set a totally different medium. Honestly, I'd always take the books over the series without even blinking. But still, this is an audiovisual medium and such media need the tension and cartharsis books can provide in radically different ways. And you're thinking about books right now, when speaking of things they could've handles better. And compared to season 5 this is complaining on a very high level ...

Edit: Also I'd like to point out that there is a thread in this subforum where people discuss wether or not Arya is still alive or wether the waif is just wearing her face, so I guess the stab wound did build up some tension even for book readers

Sure, I agree with that. Take the upcoming battle for Winterfell, for example. In the books, if Jon would capture Winterfell through cunning without any big battle at all, that could be very enjoyable to read. But the TV is a different medium so we need Jon to blindly attack so we can get a big battle. I respect that.

However, I do think D&D miss A LOT of opportunities to make both book readers and Unsullied watchers happy (and yes, I am aware you can never make everyone happy). I think it was a mistake to remove Arya's warging abilities for instance and especially Nymeria could've kept the Unsullied interested in and involved in the Riverrun/Walder Frey situation. It would also create tension by foreshadowing a possible return of Arya to Westeros.

Then in the last two episodes, instead of Arya acting like a retard and the Waif stabbing her, give us the chase scene first. That alone should provide more than enough tension. Then as Arya is cornered, let her blow out the candle and end the episode. That would start similar discussions and tension from both Unsullied and book readers.

Then in episode 8, let Arya beat the Waif through her warging abilities (warging a cat so she can see in the dark, for instance). This makes sense because Arya could never beat the Waif before, and it seems logical that the Waif would underestimate Arya like this (because she doesn't know about it). They also should've shown us the final fight and killing blow.

This is just one example but there are so many ways how they can create dramatic tension, make scenes easily comprehensible for the Unsullied and still make better use of the source material. If people on this forum can come up with better ideas by thinking about it for a few minutes, how can D&D fail at it so often? I do enjoy the show for its costumes and as simple entertainment, but the writing is by far the biggest bottleneck of the show.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 hours ago, joaozinm said:

accelerated healing... looks like some maeisters could use this. People often get stabbed on the show if only they've got some of that magic bottle.

That kind of healing has only be seen with rhllor ressurrections. Any of the time people got stabbed they didn't have that thing so its something that is not estabilished. 

Also, what does a common actress with this sort of magic? just the right thing arya needed to kill her foe...too much coincidence maybe? 

Another thing - at which point, exactly, did they reinforce Arya's skeleton with adamantium? That fall on the steps was really nasty, but no, not a single broken bone. Amazing.

[Destiel's Child]

2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Another thing - at which point, exactly, did they reinforce Arya's skeleton with adamantium? That fall on the steps was really nasty, but no, not a single broken bone. Amazing.

when she was still blind, Arya was sniffing at all the different powders.  Perhaps she found one to accelerate healing.

[Marco van Panter]

@Survivor92_

Yes, you're right. That'd all be great things to see in the series. But then again we stumble upon 2 new problems:

1. it would diminish the tension in Bran's storyline. And, to be honest. Him being able to warg was one of the only things making his storyline interesting the first 4 seasons. Book readers get why he is inherently interesting and important. But in the series him - being the only one of the main protagonists being able to warg - is pretty much the only thing keeping viewers interest alive. Otherwise we'd have another "What is a Rickon?"-situation. Well this and Hodor.
2. Budget. Bringing a well-made and neither ridiculous nor confusing warging Arya on the screen takes money. More than you think. And certainly more than the waif-battle.

However, I just want to point out once more: The show is far from perfect or from using its potential efficently and satisfying. Still, the show gets a lot of hate here, certainly more than deserved.

[Inigo Sand]

2 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

*sigh*.  You're right.  It's like they can do anything and people will forgive because she is such a beloved character.  Still, I felt sick knowing that she was just a stupid little girl, acting all posh and flashing coin.

It just didn't make sense

I agree.  I'm not going to complain too much, but there were too many inconsistencies to make this a satisfying sequence.

If Arya wasn't trying to draw the Waif out in ep 7, she seemed too casual to be believable - did she learn nothing from King's Landing?  If she was deliberately making herself conspicuous, then she was very off-guard when the old woman approached her, as if she was mooning around dreaming about going home - all very un-Arya-like. 

So Arya is tough enough to keep going through extreme pain - OK - but her new friend very conveniently was a skilled healer, and could fix her potentially fatal wounds up enough so that she could outrun the Waif almost immediately.  From then on it gets more credible and Arya luring the Waif into the darkness, the Waif thinking she could take on Arya + Needle in the dark with her knife, and Jaqen's final reaction were all consistent with their characters IMO (even if the final exchange was a bit contrived). 

It might have worked better if Arya had been more ready for the disguised Waif, come off the worse in the first fight but been less badly hurt (end ep 7 with her disappearing below the water), and then lured the Waif into her lair...

Not a hash-up on the scale of Dorne, but if Arya hasn't learnt more from her time in Braavos it sort of negates spending so much time on her story line over the last two seasons.  Arya isn't supposed to be some sort of supergirl or expert swordfighter, but she is supposed to think on her feet and learn quickly.

[Destiel's Child]

2 minutes ago, Inigo Sand said:

I agree.  I'm not going to complain too much, but there were too many inconsistencies to make this a satisfying sequence.

If Arya wasn't trying to draw the Waif out in ep 7, she seemed too casual to be believable - did she learn nothing from King's Landing?  If she was deliberately making herself conspicuous, then she was very off-guard when the old woman approached her, as if she was mooning around dreaming about going home - all very un-Arya-like. 

So Arya is tough enough to keep going through extreme pain - OK - but her new friend very conveniently was a skilled healer, and could fix her potentially fatal wounds up enough so that she could outrun the Waif almost immediately.  From then on it gets more credible and Arya luring the Waif into the darkness, the Waif thinking she could take on Arya + Needle in the dark with her knife, and Jaqen's final reaction were all consistent with their characters IMO (even if the final exchange was a bit contrived). 

It might have worked better if Arya had been more ready for the disguised Waif, come off the worse in the first fight but been less badly hurt (end ep 7 with her disappearing below the water), and then lured the Waif into her lair...

Not a hash-up on the scale of Dorne, but if Arya hasn't learnt more from her time in Braavos it sort of negates spending so much time on her story line over the last two seasons.  Arya isn't supposed to be some sort of supergirl or expert swordfighter, but she is supposed to think on her feet and learn quickly.

If the point was to demonstrate she was tough, why have the obvious errors in judgement.  There was no show that she was drawing out the waif, no subplot, it just was what it was

[Darkstream]

16 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

when she was still blind, Arya was sniffing at all the different powders.  Perhaps she found one to accelerate healing.

I believe I fell victim to Poe's law when I initially read this. 

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, Survivor92 said:

Sure, I agree with that. Take the upcoming battle for Winterfell, for example. In the books, if Jon would capture Winterfell through cunning without any big battle at all, that could be very enjoyable to read. But the TV is a different medium so we need Jon to blindly attack so we can get a big battle. I respect that.

However, I do think D&D miss A LOT of opportunities to make both book readers and Unsullied watchers happy (and yes, I am aware you can never make everyone happy). I think it was a mistake to remove Arya's warging abilities for instance and especially Nymeria could've kept the Unsullied interested in and involved in the Riverrun/Walder Frey situation. It would also create tension by foreshadowing a possible return of Arya to Westeros.

Then in the last two episodes, instead of Arya acting like a retard and the Waif stabbing her, give us the chase scene first. That alone should provide more than enough tension. Then as Arya is cornered, let her blow out the candle and end the episode. That would start similar discussions and tension from both Unsullied and book readers.

Then in episode 8, let Arya beat the Waif through her warging abilities (warging a cat so she can see in the dark, for instance). This makes sense because Arya could never beat the Waif before, and it seems logical that the Waif would underestimate Arya like this (because she doesn't know about it). They also should've shown us the final fight and killing blow.

This is just one example but there are so many ways how they can create dramatic tension, make scenes easily comprehensible for the Unsullied and still make better use of the source material. If people on this forum can come up with better ideas by thinking about it for a few minutes, how can D&D fail at it so often? I do enjoy the show for its costumes and as simple entertainment, but the writing is by far the biggest bottleneck of the show.

If only d$d had a smidgen of the story telling ability you've shown to have, Got would be all the better for it.  

[throney]

8 minutes ago, Stoned_Heart said:

If the point was to demonstrate she was tough, why have the obvious errors in judgement.  There was no show that she was drawing out the waif, no subplot, it just was what it was

i think a lot of it was the inconsistency of her scenes in eps. 6 and 7. In the "Behind the scenes" for eps 7 and 8, Maisie Willims seemed to contradict herself one minute she says that it is scrambling desperation and then it was very calculated. She also said that she was happy that Arya was being challenged because she got too cocky. 

Unfortuantly it all plot driving characters instead of making it seem that the characters are driving the plot. This IMO is why it seems that the characters are making stupid decisions. The storyline in the North is another example of this, I think.

[Survivor92]

1 hour ago, Marco van Panter said:

@Survivor92_

Yes, you're right. That'd all be great things to see in the series. But then again we stumble upon 2 new problems:

1. it would diminish the tension in Bran's storyline. And, to be honest. Him being able to warg was one of the only things making his storyline interesting the first 4 seasons. Book readers get why he is inherently interesting and important. But in the series him - being the only one of the main protagonists being able to warg - is pretty much the only thing keeping viewers interest alive. Otherwise we'd have another "What is a Rickon?"-situation. Well this and Hodor.
2. Budget. Bringing a well-made and neither ridiculous nor confusing warging Arya on the screen takes money. More than you think. And certainly more than the waif-battle.

However, I just want to point out once more: The show is far from perfect or from using its potential efficently and satisfying. Still, the show gets a lot of hate here, certainly more than deserved.

I think a large reason for why the show gets more hate "than deserved" is the disrespect D&D seem to have for the source material. I get that you need to make (big) changes for the TV medium and that they moved beyond the books now. However, D&D have started to include nasty sneers in episodes that ridicule the books, forbid the actors to read the books and it sometimes seems as if they believe they are actually "improving" the source material. It's that arrogance that leads people to complain so much.

Personally, I could be a lot more forgiving to D&D if they showed some humbleness and respect for the source material. Don't try to shift the blame on GRRM like they so often do ("This is also how it happens in the books!", RE: Hodor, Sansa, etc.). If you're not going to do anything meaningful with book material, then don't include it at all. Dorne and Riverrun were both largely useless.

You also talk about budget, but when they create hundreds of unique faces for the Hall of Faces and spent CGI money on overdone dragon scenes, plus lots of filler content, then surely they could've spent a bit more CGI on Direwolves. I really think they should've either cut the Direwolves entirely or used them a lot more. I think it was a mistake not to involve the DIrewolves more, people love them and root for them.

 

[Ser Matt Dayne]

On 6/7/2016 at 1:32 PM, Ser Matt Dayne said:

Arya is done with the faceless men and has chosen to be Arya Stark, that was the whole point of her reaction to the play, saving Lady Crane and retrieving Needle. 

Whatever happens between her and the waif, Jaqen won't be able to recruit her, He may spare or even save her, but either way, she's going to be on a boat as Arya Stark and not as an FM on a mission.

To put it bluntly, she's already more or less told them to go fuck themselves.

YUS. Thank fuck that A=W theory was nonsense.