Bastard-Bowl Set-up Problems (spoilers)

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

Just now, Stannis is the man....nis said:

That's what I have been saying

I know I tried to reaffirm it as our mutual-disagreer didn't seem to quite grasp the concept.

[Ser Not Appearing]

22 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Saying ... that characters should act a certain way just because you think they should just doesn't make it so.

It does if you're D&D. Regardless of any setup or past character building.

[Stannistician]

24 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Here's an idea how about not rape Sansa, have Rickon be the Jenye role last season and have Smalljon be the Wyman role of using Rickon to bust his father out of jail

D&D probably would have had Ramsay rape Rickon in that scenario.  They really liked that subplot. 

[lancerman]

6 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

It does if you're D&D. Regardless of any setup or past character building.

I guess it does if you are complaining about the show to.

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

I hate this- just because you want..

The reason WE want is because it has been established in the show.

Kinslaying is established in the show in pretty much every religion in the show as a big no-no, a terrible crime. Yet there is plenty of kinslaying and folks going 'yeah whatever'

Arya has been through hell since KL and knows the extent or her betrayal to the FM yet is walking around without needle, ladeedaaing?

Dany literally said two episodes ago. I am going to burn cities to the ground. Then goes today that the Iron born can no longer pillage, destroy and rape.

Dothraki have an extreme fear/hatred toward magi and magic. Oh you can walk through flames, you must be our new leader.

Jaime says everyone who tears their family apart must pay!.. marches on Riverrun to get back the castle for the crown.. Instead of ya know Dorne.. the people that assassinated his daughter.

etc etc etc

[lancerman]

24 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said:

I hate this- just because you want..

The reason WE want is because it has been established in the show.

Kinslaying is established in the show in pretty much every religion in the show as a big no-no, a terrible crime. Yet there is plenty of kinslaying and folks going 'yeah whatever'

Arya has been through hell since KL and knows the extent or her betrayal to the FM yet is walking around without needle, ladeedaaing?

Dany literally said two episodes ago. I am going to burn cities to the ground. Then goes today that the Iron born can no longer pillage, destroy and rape.

Dothraki have an extreme fear/hatred toward magi and magic. Oh you can walk through flames, you must be our new leader.

Jaime says everyone who tears their family apart must pay!.. marches on Riverrun to get back the castle for the crown.. Instead of ya know Dorne.. the people that assassinated his daughter.

etc etc etc

1. Exactly one person exists who can definitively prove Ramsay killed Roose. That one person is a Karstark, who hates the Starks.. Ramsay also has the biggest army so not to many folks will question that. Also anyone who questions Ramsay is basically in a he said she said with the Bolton heir inside a castle manned by Boltons.

2. Arya got Needle pretty much right after she betrayed the Faceless Men. Arya got stabbed literally right after making accomodations to get out of Essos. That's not an accurate summary of what happened.

3. Dany also said it again this episode and Tyrion walked her back. The conversation with Yara was pretty much a direct play off that previous scene. Also Dany was talking about burning down the cities of her direct enemies. The IronBorn are pirates who pillage unassuming mainlanders for the most part.

4. Dothraki followed Dany after she walked through fire last time as well. Not new to this series or the source material.

5. If you can't see the difference between settling a political dispute that Cersie directly asked him to take care of and starting a war against the most dangerous territory in Westeros that Aegon couldn't even take care of with his dragons, I don't know what to tell you.

See I think most of your problem is an extremely linear way of a thinking that characters can't be hypocritical and have flaws. Or that people don't do things out of convenience and their own interests. IE the Dothraki just saw this women destroy the most powerful members of their civilization and walk out of fire. To them she's some kind of prophet and not someone they want to tangle with..

[Forlong the Fat]

35 minutes ago, lancerman said:

1. Exactly one person exists who can definitively prove Ramsay killed Roose. That one person is a Karstark, who hates the Starks.. Ramsay also has the biggest army so not to many folks will question that. Also anyone who questions Ramsay is basically in a he said she said with the Bolton heir inside a castle manned by Boltons.

2. Arya got Needle pretty much right after she betrayed the Faceless Men. Arya got stabbed literally right after making accomodations to get out of Essos. That's not an accurate summary of what happened.

3. Dany also said it again this episode and Tyrion walked her back. The conversation with Yara was pretty much a direct play off that previous scene. Also Dany was talking about burning down the cities of her direct enemies. The IronBorn are pirates who pillage unassuming mainlanders for the most part.

4. Dothraki followed Dany after she walked through fire last time as well. Not new to this series or the source material.

5. If you can't see the difference between settling a political dispute that Cersie directly asked him to take care of and starting a war against the most dangerous territory in Westeros that Aegon couldn't even take care of with his dragons, I don't know what to tell you.

See I think most of your problem is an extremely linear way of a thinking that characters can't be hypocritical and have flaws. Or that people don't do things out of convenience and their own interests. IE the Dothraki just saw this women destroy the most powerful members of their civilization and walk out of fire. To them she's some kind of prophet and not someone they want to tangle with..

On point 5, I agree with you (as most everything else in this post) but would add: the entire point of the plot this season re: Jaime and Cersei is that they have been shamed and stripped of all power. Cersei specifically tells Jaime he should go to Riverrun to regain his standing and  Jaime tells Bronn that he' hopes to soon have control of the Lannister armies (informing us, in a case a viewer couldnt get it through his thick skull for some reason, that he currently doesn't have control of the armies). All of which is to say Jaime couldn't take an army to Dorne. No one would follow him to Dorne or anywhere else he didn't have permission to go. People with power won't even sit in the same room with him at this point. 

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

2 hours ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

And they butchered the Braavos storyline, the North storyline and Tyrion himself this season alone. It's all rather remarkable how quickly they reverted to bad TV gimmicks once they ran out of material to translate.

But Hot Topic is going to sell so many "I drink and I know things" T-Shirts. Maybe one with Tyrion, Missendei and Grey Worm sitting around a table with wine too. And anyone in the biz will tell you that that is all that matters. 

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

Well said. It felt like instead of "How can we have Jon and Sansa exact their revenge in a compelling and sensical manner." they said "How can we make Littlefinger look good here."

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

7 hours ago, lancerman said:

1. Exactly one person exists who can definitively prove Ramsay killed Roose. That one person is a Karstark, who hates the Starks.. Ramsay also has the biggest army so not to many folks will question that. Also anyone who questions Ramsay is basically in a he said she said with the Bolton heir inside a castle manned by Boltons.

2. Arya got Needle pretty much right after she betrayed the Faceless Men. Arya got stabbed literally right after making accomodations to get out of Essos. That's not an accurate summary of what happened.

3. Dany also said it again this episode and Tyrion walked her back. The conversation with Yara was pretty much a direct play off that previous scene. Also Dany was talking about burning down the cities of her direct enemies. The IronBorn are pirates who pillage unassuming mainlanders for the most part.

4. Dothraki followed Dany after she walked through fire last time as well. Not new to this series or the source material.

5. If you can't see the difference between settling a political dispute that Cersie directly asked him to take care of and starting a war against the most dangerous territory in Westeros that Aegon couldn't even take care of with his dragons, I don't know what to tell you.

See I think most of your problem is an extremely linear way of a thinking that characters can't be hypocritical and have flaws. Or that people don't do things out of convenience and their own interests. IE the Dothraki just saw this women destroy the most powerful members of their civilization and walk out of fire. To them she's some kind of prophet and not someone they want to tangle .

1. Euron and Dorne also face no repercussions for breaking established lore. Sure characters can be hypocritical but having all the Ironborn including Damphair act normal is a bit of a stretch.

2. Arya has been through hell. She also been trained now. We see her blow out the candle after retrieving needle. The next time we see her she is strolling about and paying for passage. Without needle in the city of the group she pissed off.

Jaqens warning wasn't cryptic and Arya knows what they are. Hence theories about how it wasn't Arya.

3. I stand corrected.

4. They followed her after her dragons were born. The first ones in centuries. Nevermind that only a small portion of Khal Drogos khalsar remained and the fact once the Dothraki found out who see they still took her to be judged.

This establishes this season that her magic has no sway on them. 

Hence why the book scene of the khalsar coming up on her with Drogon makes more sense. Since Dothraki follow tangible power not abstract.

If they did the magi would have been revered vs hated.

5. Okay sure. Jamie and Cereal have less power. They don't even mention her. Go get Riverrun and then will focus on Dorne.

In fact it's silly to say that since JC have no power nothing will happen.

Myrecella was sister to the King and not only that but Dorne is most likely in open rebellion and even then barely any mention by anyone.

I understand there may be more direct threats but Myrecella 's assassination hasn't been mentioned since episode 2 maybe?

[Jedi Renee]

On 20/06/2016 at 3:28 PM, LordPathera said:

Warning: This post bleeds with some let-off emotion and anger despite my attempts to stay mature and legible. I will also contain heavy comparisons between the show and the books.

Going into this battle, I know that it's going to suck.

So I don't even know if I want to watch it.

FTR: I'm a fan of the books and enjoyed the first 4 seasons of Game of Thrones in how they were faithful to the source material while also standing on their own. They weren't perfect and were filled with questionable changes and creative decisions, but overall they were great.

So great in fact, that the quality rot in season 5 and 6 stuck out to me and truly bothered me. Not just because of sub-par quality writing and entertainment, but because it was surprising in a bad way as I've seen that the Team behind Game of Thrones can make quality entertainment. Hence, the first four seasons. And my disappointment just gets worst and worst each and every time I give the team a benefit of a doubt only to be disappointed in the worst way possible.

And I can now see that the Bastardbowl is going to be one of those disappointments. I can safely hedge that bet based on three main reasons:

1) Ramsey as Lord of the North

In the show, Ramsey murders Roose Bolton and his newborn baby brother to inherit the North and tie up any loose-ends that could challenge him.

That sounds alright until you remember that Roose would never leave himself open as he did.

In both the show and the books, Ramsey has accumulated a reputation as a savage butcher on top of being a bastard. Roose himself is weary of Ramsey because he believes that Ramsey killed his trueborn son Domeric and believes that Ramsey will kill him if he has a chance. In fact, Roose seems almost resigned to the fact that Ramsey is going to make a move or kill off any trueborn sons that he has with Walda Frey.

So with that in mind, it's obvious that the writers gave Roose Bolton the stupid ball so that Roose would get killed off for shock value and to gift wrap the North to Ramsey. However, I'm not annoyed that Roose was killed, merely that he is shown to be too smart to get gutted as easily as he did. This man was the guy who pulled the wool over the Starks; helped engineer the Red Wedding; and even managed to smuggle himself past the Neck and Moat Cailin from the south. In the books, he was given command of the majority of the North's army because he was intelligent and cautious, capable of going against Tywin to buy time and still leave his host intact.

But the worst part about the above is that there is no consequence.

Remember, Ramsey is a monster who at one point boasted about tormenting and flaying a defiant lord while the Bolton hold on the North was tenuous. He sacked Winterfell and put its people to the sword; and it's obvious that he just killed his own family. On top of that, the Bolton's just perpetrated the Red Wedding and you're telling me that this has no affect on the Bolton's position in the North?

Of course it wouldn't! Because following internal logic and consistency would mean that Ramsey wouldn't be as powerful because less men would be loyal to him. It would mean that even traditionally loyal Bolton bannermen would rebel or defect to Stark-loyalist forces. It would also mean that North houses who lost men and family to the Red Wedding would see an opportune moment for revenge/justice and pool their forces together against the Dreadfort and Winterfell.

I mean, that is what happened in the books when Roose was STILL ALIVE!

But speaking of other Northern houses...let's move on to my next point.

2) The North Forgets

The initial crisis is alright and has potential. Jon Snow and Sansa reunite and decide to rally the North to retake Winterfell from the Boltons after he captures Rickon Stark. Okay! This should be interesting, seeing the loyal Northmen gather what little they can around Jon and Sansa. Then we can deal with tension between the Stark-loyalist Northmen and the Wildlings with Jon, Sansa and Davos trying to keep the peace as best as they can. 

Finally, Ramsey gathers his 7,000 men from the Dreadfort and Bolton-loyal houses like the Ryswells and Barrowtons and is shocked to see just how many men are following Jon. He sees at least 6,000 men in Jon's host: 2,000 Wildlings with Wun Wun and Tormund (And Val as Jon's new lover, why not?); 2,000 Northern Tribesmen; and 2,000 Umbers, Mormonts, Glovers, Hornwoods, Talharts, Celwyns, Reeds (debatable), remnants of Stannis' army led by Davos and even a few dozen men from House Ironrath (a bone for fans of the Telltale game)

And then the fighting starts, Ramsey having a clear advantage in terms of numbers and preparation. But what he lacks is the loyalty of his men. His men are fighting because they have to while Jon's army fights because they want to. The ill-deeds and betrayal of the Boltons causes even their own men to doubt their cause which already affects their morale. And faced with the righteous fury of the Stark-loyal forces and the utter ferocity and ruthlessness of the godless Wildlings, the battle is evened out and the audience is on the edge of their seat as to who would win.

Instead, Jon is contrived to be doomed.

Explain how it's not a contrivance that House Umber (one of House Stark's most loyal bannermen) would not only side with House Bolton, but also hand over Eddard Stark's last living son to the Boltons? Explain how it's not a contrivance that the Northern Mountain Tribes have been written out of the show and don't make any appearance? Explain how it's not a contrivance for House Glover to be sitting out the fight because the Boltons saved Deepwood Motte off-screen or how he blames the Ironborn invasion on Robb and not the traitor Theon? Explain how it's not a contrivance that House Manderly (another one of the Stark's most loyal bannermen) isn't active at all whereas in the books, they were pretending to side with the Boltons as a set-up for righteous revenge after Lord Manderly's second son was murdered in the Red Wedding.

And let me get this straight: Sansa sends Brienne all the way south to try and recruit the Blackfish (who stupidly stays and dies for nothing; whereas in the books, he escaped when Riverrun was yielded). But doesn't send even a raven to try and ask Howland Reed (his father's best friend and another really loyal bannerman) and the cannogmen for help?

Apologists will inevitably try to defend this terrible writing, but's obvious that this is all put into place to handicap the Stark-loyalist army. All so that Jon Snow will be hopelessly outmatched and outnumbered for when LF rides in with the Vale to save the day.

But I'm getting ahead of myself, that's point 3.

This isn't the worst problem with the set-up, but it is the least faithful to the books. In the books, the persistent loyalty of the Northmen is one of the thematic counterpoints to the first half of the series. Said series focused on how traditionally exalted traits in fantasy fiction like honor, bravery, strength, justice, trust, faith and honesty can lead to disaster because a cut-throat world has no room for such ideas. Or so it seemed. From midway through Storm of Swords through Dance with Dragons, the ruthless traits are now deconstructed mainly through Cersei's storyline; Jamie's character transformation and reflection and Theon's reflections about his betrayal and how he wishes to take it back and to have died with Robb.

Additionally, we see that the Northerners are willing to back Stannis despite having little to offer and fighting an uphill battle. But they fight to seek justice for their people and their family members killed in the Red Wedding; they fight to honor the memory of the Just and Honorable Starks who'd guided and protected them for many generations; and they fight for Ned Stark's girl though ironically this was a fake girl set in place to strengthen the Bolton's hold on the North and it's doing the exact opposite. The battle hasn't been concluded in the books yet, but regardless these Northerners' efforts are Martin's way of acknowledging and reconstructing the notion that the very virtues that he deconstructed initially do have merit, they do have worth and they can be wielded effectively by a good leader or sting of leaders.

And that's completely thrown out of the window for no good reason.

Because it's more sensational for the northmen to be cynical and uncaring because pessimism is this show's patron tone. The show never got the hint that Martin is long-term deconstructing and critiquing the stuff that it's glorifying out of ignorance of Martin's true message. At least the first four seasons at least seemed to get Martin's spirit right even if they weren't trying to, but the notion of the "North forgets" makes be think that was an accident after all.

But again, that's not the worst problem.

3) Sansa trusting Littlefinger

If spoilers are to be believed, Sansa sent a letter to LF asking for help. She doesn't tell Jon about this and then LF enters the fray in the nick of time with the Knights of the Vale to crush the Boltons and save Jon's outmatched army.

Yep, Sansa goes behind her brother's back to ask the least trustworthy man in Westeros for help and the show treats this all like its a good thing.

A) The only reason that LF is needed to save the day is heavy plot contrivance, which I've already pointed out in my previous two points.

Sansa has no reason not to trust Jon with this information. There is no reason why she shouldn't tell Jon about the aid of the Vale or broker asking the Vale for aid seeing as that Eddard was fostered there and has many friends among its nobility. 

C) WHEN IS THE LAST TIME THAT TRUSTING LITTLEFINGER HAS EVER BEEN A GOOD THING?

Eddard trusted LF and lost his head; Cat trusted LF and she got played towards starting a war where she and her eldest son died; Lysa trusted LF and she died after she was no further use; Jon Arryn trusted LF and he got poisoned because LF saw an opportunity to wreck chaos on the realm; and Sansa herself trust LF and she got handed over to the men who betrayed and murdered her brother to get raped and tortured by Ramsey.

Trusting Littlefinger is objectively the worst possible move that Sansa could make at this point.

Especially since we the audience know that LF wants the North. He conspired with Cersei and got her to give him permission to invade the North and become the new Warden of the North after defeating the Boltons. So how does Sansa know that LF won't screw her and her brother over after "helping" to defeat the Boltons? If only there were someway to take LF out of the equation...so that the Vale can be called for help without selling out to the least trustworthy man in all of Westeros-

Or wait...WHY DIDN'T SANSA HAVE BRIENE KILL BAELISH DURING THEIR REUNION? Seriously? Am I the only one sick of the cliche where the villain is at the hero's mercy, but is spared because killing the villain is somehow wrong? If LF died, then the Vale is free of his control, which means that Sansa is free to call to them for help and keep Jon in the loop and Sansa comes out as finally maturing into a crafty and intelligent woman who uses her new experience and maturity to help restore her house.

Instead, it seems like Ramsey has been built up and Jon torn down to give LF a chance to be a hero.

EVEN THOUGH THIS ENTIRE F%@#$^$G CONFLICT (IE THE WAR OF THE FIVE KINGS) WAS PETYR BAELISH'S F@$#^$G FAULT! AND SANSA F%$Y$^%^ KNOWS THIS!

*Takes a minute to breath*

So with above reasons in mind, I don't know if I even want to watch the Battle of the Bastards. Maybe I should just skip it because I've yet to see any reason why it won't suck. Maybe I'm to emotionally invested in the characters and ideas that have been trampled and defiled since Season 5 to where any further attention is just self-torture.

For those who've watched the episode, are my concerns and grievances justified or am I simply late to a party that just about everyone's been in for a long time? Or maybe I should just turn my brain off and try to enjoy how absurdly bad and idiotically written that this battle's going to be?

U forgot to mention the awful off screen killing of Stannis  (rip our one true king ) I wish they had davos go get rickon from Skagos instead too