The Dragon has three heads Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 It's quite possible given the intervening time that she was taken by rhaegar and fell in love with Arthur. To me they are the only two candidates. The Daynes surely cannot be such a huge red herring. regardless it seems most evidence points to Rhaegar, and the graphic released confirms this for the show. Unless of course they're lying....again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 That's always been the problem. The mystery itself doesn't appear too important either in the original synopsis or in the books so far. Where the problem does arise is not in the mystery but in the supplementary calculations. We know that Jon used to be anxious to know about his mother [although that hasn't figured much lately on account of having other things on his plate] and we know that in the synopsis GRRM sketched a scenario about a troubling relationship with Arya, which is sorted by the discovery that they aren't siblings after all. Both of those are resolved by the discovery that Jon is the son of Lyanna. Where it gets complicated is in assuming that if R+L=J then Jon is Aragorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 34 minutes ago, The Dragon has three heads said: ...and the graphic released confirms this for the show. Unless of course they're lying....again... I refer to the answer I gave before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arry'sFleas Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 11 hours ago, Black Crow said: Both can be identified through clues in AGoT, both would make sense in different ways, but given GRRM's dislike of literary architecture, might that argument between the two candidates also be going on in his head. Has he set up both as viable candidates, but has not yet decided which will be the better one in bringing this story to a satisfactory conclusion? yes, quite possible, but one has to question why Arthur Dayne would have 2 kingsguards with him at the TOJ, if there was no royal blood to be protected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arry'sFleas Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 On 04/07/2016 at 4:55 PM, Black Crow said: [Jon] is in every way the Ice to Danaerys' Fire in this story. if we equate Dany's fire as being her dragons, then what do we equate Jon's ice with? It seems to me that Jon is aware of the icy threat coming from the LOAW and as per the last book is preparing to fight it, rather than lead it. The balance seems to be missing. Unless Jon and Dany join forces to repel both ice and fire. Eventually i expect that neither ice nor fire should prevail if the 'earth' must continue: no scorching nor freezing of the land.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 8 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said: It's quite possible given the intervening time that she was taken by rhaegar and fell in love with Arthur. To me they are the only two candidates. The Daynes surely cannot be such a huge red herring. GRRM has said in one of the SSM's that the "Sword of the Morning will rise again," so it seems that he intends for Dawn to become important in the story. As it stands, our list of known Daynes don't seem to fit the bill for a future SotM, though the series could drag on long enough for Ned Dayne to grow up; Dorkstar, on the other hand, seems to have built his entire persona around the fact that he was rejected as SotM, like the Westerosi equivalent of someone going through a goth phase. Just based on that SSM, it seems like GRRM intends to reveal a surprise SotM; either a son/daughter of Ashara or Arthur, or the sword being granted to someone that isn't a Dayne. I think that at least gives us a little extra reason to speculate that Arthur could be Jon's father, beyond Arthur just being at the right place at the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other other stark Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I've never been sure if it's Arthur or rhaegar. What troubled me with Arthur is why wouldn't he just talk it out with Ned. Instead of fighting to the death. Because fighting is more towards keeping rhaegar secret. someone posted a link in this or last heresy I believe. It mentioned something about the dayne's possibly having "valarian" features and being one side of the parenting to what would become house stark. since dayne's are one of the earliest first men if I remember. This could make sense if the last hero was a dayne and founded house stark with his son making his son the "must always be a stark in winter fell". The reason I mention all this is because maybe rhaegar was really doing all this silly shit to get Arthur and lyanna close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 6 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said: yes, quite possible, but one has to question why Arthur Dayne would have 2 kingsguards with him at the TOJ, if there was no royal blood to be protected Part of the mystery isn't it. GRRM when asked basically said they were following orders, which isn't quite the same as saying they were doing their duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 5 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said: if we equate Dany's fire as being her dragons, then what do we equate Jon's ice with? It seems to me that Jon is aware of the icy threat coming from the LOAW and as per the last book is preparing to fight it, rather than lead it. The balance seems to be missing. Unless Jon and Dany join forces to repel both ice and fire. Eventually i expect that neither ice nor fire should prevail if the 'earth' must continue: no scorching nor freezing of the land.. Don't know about Danaerys the Dragonlord but I've suggested a number of times that being King of Winter may be about keeping it in check rather than leading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 38 minutes ago, Matthew. said: GRRM has said in one of the SSM's that the "Sword of the Morning will rise again," so it seems that he intends for Dawn to become important in the story. As it stands, our list of known Daynes don't seem to fit the bill for a future SotM, though the series could drag on long enough for Ned Dayne to grow up; Dorkstar, on the other hand, seems to have built his entire persona around the fact that he was rejected as SotM, like the Westerosi equivalent of someone going through a goth phase. Just based on that SSM, it seems like GRRM intends to reveal a surprise SotM; either a son/daughter of Ashara or Arthur, or the sword being granted to someone that isn't a Dayne. I think that at least gives us a little extra reason to speculate that Arthur could be Jon's father, beyond Arthur just being at the right place at the right time. Interesting one, I'd not come across it before and while I agree that neither Ned Dayne nor Darkstar fit the bill, nor do I see a completely new character coming out of left field to trump everyone. Just as I've argued that the Others are integral to the story and not an external threat, I would expect the sword to turn out to be someone we already know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 20 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Interesting one, I'd not come across it before... Uh oh! I might have fucked up here, then. I was absolutely certain I had a memory of that exact quote from an SSM being posted and discussed in some past Heresy, but I didn't actually do my due diligence and double check, and Google isn't turning up anything that roughly fits the quote I attributed to GRRM. That's my mistake, unless someone else turns up that quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 17 minutes ago, Matthew. said: I might have fucked up here, then. I was absolutely certain I had a memory of that exact quote from an SSM being posted and discussed in some past Heresy, but I didn't actually do my due diligence and double check, and Google isn't turning up anything that roughly fits the quote I attributed to GRRM. That's my mistake, unless someone else turns up that quote You were probably thinking of this SSM. Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise. ...which is very close. Not technically a statement that we will see a new Sword of the Morning in the canon, but I'd call it suggestive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: Interesting one, I'd not come across it before and while I agree that neither Ned Dayne nor Darkstar fit the bill, nor do I see a completely new character coming out of left field to trump everyone. Just as I've argued that the Others are integral to the story and not an external threat, I would expect the sword to turn out to be someone we already know Why not Ned Dayne as the sword of the morning? Admittedly the only thing he has going for him is he is one of two living Daynes named in the story. But the only thing he has going against him is his age, which will be solved by the progress of time. Any idea who his parents were? Milk brothers with Jon implies his mother died, or at least wasn't around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 Its not just his age, he really hasn't made a mark on the story so far let alone had a POV so I think that if such a role was to come into play he's too much of an outsider. Don't recall who his parents were, but those who could afford to do so employed wet nurses whether the mother was living or not. The point about he and Jon being milk brothers being that they both had the same wet nurse but not at one and the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other other stark Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 So the poster is LML and the more I read his essays the more I'm thinking king of winter is to keep it in check. He really does a great job of connecting Essos and westeros, lighbringer, dragons, direwolves and the many people who make up Azor ahai. With many other connecting topics One particular subject that blew my mind is that only winter fell and dragon stone have gargoyles on the castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 39 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Its not just his age, he really hasn't made a mark on the story so far let alone had a POV so I think that if such a role was to come into play he's too much of an outsider. Are you limiting the candidates to existing POV characters? Because I don't see any of them being a good choice, unless Jon turns out to be a Dayne and the sword really is Lightbringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other other stark Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I don't think it's anyone person. It's going to be a bunch of people. Maybe grouped together or all in separate acts. But there is a lot of text supporting we will have a lot of people who have always been on the hero arc or will be going into a redemption arc adding there own pieces to the puzzle in order to save the day and thqt includes Jon, dany, Tyrion, Brienne, Jamie, and the hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 We can divide choices into 4 categories: 1) a character not yet introduced 2) an existing character who is a known Dayne 3) an existing character who is secretly a Dayne 4) an existing character who isn't a Dayne. I think 2 is most likely, and Ned and Darkstar are the only 2 I am aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other other stark Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I don't think dawn has to go to a dayne. It sounds like dayne is just responsible for the sword being given to someone who is worthy. And that Arthur just Happens to be a dayne who was worthy to wield it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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